Four little boys (or any four kids) could have a great scrub game, if there is a place for them to have it and they have the most basic equipment. They probably live in the area of the store, is there anywhere around there for kids to play?

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Originally posted by Trisha:
When more families lived in neighborhoods, there was always someone to play with and something going on. Too many families are in housing where there are no safe nearby places to play or fewer children. That leaves children stuck inside a lot more.

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Fear in "crime-ridden" neighbourhoods is a different issue, but nowadays not all of those are densely populated.

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Originally posted by Trisha:
Low income parents cannot afford to get the kids involved in organized sports or take them to play parks and the like.

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And a lot of them don't know how to parent. This is particularly a problem with those who were raised in residential schools.

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Not true, Gir. In cities there are playgrounds and parks, and children don't have to be driven everywhere. The latter is one of the major causes in the rise of childhood obesity.

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I think what Gir is trying to point out is not so much the proximity of parks or open spaces, but the difference between having a back yard or not.

For example, it doesn't matter that I have two parks within 2 to 3 blocks of home base -- I can't send the kids there alone, and I have to supervise them at the park, and that means I can't be working or cooking or doing whatever household stuff needs to be done. If I have a back yard, with a swing set and some climbing stuff, a ball, etc., I can keep an eye/ear out and still keep the wheels from falling off our lives. It really is easier -- even in my centrally-located urban neighborhood where we need to drive very little.

Actually in Edmonton most evenings the parks are tied up with organized soccer or usually adult softball. (Gallagher park in Edmonton actually has a sign on its baseball diamond, stating it can only be used by children.)

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Originally posted by Trisha:

Four little boys (or any four kids) could have a great scrub game, if there is a place for them to have it and they have the most basic equipment.

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Originally posted by Zoot Capri:

I think what Gir is trying to point out is not so much the proximity of parks or open spaces, but the difference between having a back yard or not.

For example, it doesn't matter that I have two parks within 2 to 3 blocks of home base -- I can't send the kids there alone, and I have to supervise them at the park, and that means I can't be working or cooking or doing whatever household stuff needs to be done. If I have a back yard, with a swing set and some climbing stuff, a ball, etc., I can keep an eye/ear out and still keep the wheels from falling off our lives. It really is easier -- even in my centrally-located urban neighborhood where we need to drive very little.

So, while I'm not advocating urban sprawl, there is some advantage to having some sort of yard component to your home.

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Originally posted by steffie_slick:
[QB]I'm ashamed to say I am one of those parents whose child stays home all day and plays video games. We live in a apartment with no yard. There is a park nearby, but my son's friends from school live past walking distance away. QB]

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Don't beat yourself up. There are lots of kids with huge backyards and parks nearby who don't get out.

When i was 11, in Toronto, my parents probably didn't think about us twice between breakfast and dinner on any summer day. We weren't there. We were out riding our bikes, playing soccer with other kids, fighting, reading at the public library, dumspter-diving, climbing trees, exploring condemned houses...
It didn't occur to them that we might be in any danger. They knew we weren't stupid. If we did anything bad, the nearest adult would set us straight. If we'd ever been hurt or lost, the nearest adult would help.
But that was 1958. A whole other era and mind-set.

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Low income parents cannot afford to get the kids involved in organized sports or take them to play parks and the like.
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And a lot of them don't know how to parent.

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I take exception to that post. Just becuase someof us aren't well off and can't afford a lot of activities does not mean we have any problems with out parenting skills.

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And a lot of them don't know how to parent.

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I take extreme offense to this comment. It qualifies as poor bashing. I've seen a lot more low income parents play with their children, take them for walks, join play groups with them and more than those who pay for someone to tend to their kids while they're busy with their own pursuits. When a single parent or both parents have to work, time with children can be hard to come by. Most people give it their best shot.

[ 10 August 2004: Message edited by: nonesuch ]

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I've seen a lot more low income parents play with their children, take them for walks, join play groups with them and more than those who pay for someone to tend to their kids while they're busy with their own pursuits.

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In fact, an argument could be made that lower income parents do a better job, because they are free of the distractions that wealth can bring. We are forced to find ways to spend time that are low cost or free, which in many cases means one-on-one time spent with the children. But I'm not making that argument here.

When I was a newly separtated parent of a toddler, I joined a parenting group to connect with women who were struggling with the same things I was (none of my friends had kids at that time). What I discovered at these groups was that the majority of the women attending were of a higher income than me; in fact, they were generally the wives of - (professionals, well paid men) - and therefore didn't need to worry about the basics of survival, putting food on the table. They saw me as this "poor single mom" (my perception, formed by their comments to me) so I felt like the "other".

BUT - The thing that levelled the field completely was the issues surrounding parenting. It was comforting to me that the rich moms had just as much trouble dealing with the demands of parenting as I did. Children pass through their developmental and behavioural stages regardless of the family's net income. My experience showed me that the higher income families often had more behavioural issues, mainly because there was more pressure on the mothers to "do it right", and to look good while doing it. Whereas, I had nobody to impress. No husband to judge me or expect anything from me. Just me and the kid.

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partly because they got kids before they were ready, or were abandoned by their parents and partner. There are poor people with no support system, nobody to teach them how to raise kids

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Very true! While I have had to rely on welfare in the past, I am not nor have I ever been caught in the welfare trap, there are a lot of low-income people who are not on welfare.

That is stereo-typing. I resent the insinuation that because I don't make a lot of money that I and my friends are bad parents. Maybe if society quit beating the hell out of us we would give up so readily.

[ 11 August 2004: Message edited by: exiled_armadillo ]

Most people, in all income groups, don't know how to raise kids well. Most people, in all income groups, come to parenting with zero experience. Most people, in all income groups, fly by the seat of their pants (or read a lot of books) and many fail, and most never know why they failed. It's too complicated; there are too many factors we don't control or understand.
People with no money have a harder time, for many reasons.

[ 10 August 2004: Message edited by: nonesuch ]

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Although children were in a boarding-school situation for 10 months of the year, many did not even return home for holidays, for a number of reasons. This dislocation resulted in their total alienation from family and community. "Residential School Syndrome" effects include:
lack of parenting skills
loss of language and culture
inability to communicate and articulate feelings
addictions, including alcohol and drugs
gambling
family violence and cycles of abuse

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Note: lack of parenting skills. This is recognized by the BC Medical Journal and Vancouver Native Health Society.

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Good parenting, like bad parenting is taught.

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Too true Cougyr.

Let us not forget that some of this is choice. Some of us have good examples, but some people are good parents in spite of their own childhood examples. If you choose to make career or money your priority, (not saying that isn't valid either) then that is a choice. One of the hardest things facing people today is the juggling of priorities.