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Author Topic: baraa-ye hamzabaanaan ke shaa'eri par shauq rakhte hain
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 14 December 2001 04:46 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Tashrif laakar rakhie, yaa ahl-e zabaan! Yaan jo bhi khushmaza shaa'eri ke durrdaane yaad aaye pesh karen. Jabke shirini-e Urdu behadd hai, to ham kanjus kyuun hon?

Ham khud shuru' karte hain:

Yeh shaayad avvalin ghazal-e divaan-e Mir Taqi Mir hai. Us ka matla' kaafi shaandaar hai.

Aur yeh, hamaari ray men, Mir ne khud apne dast se likha hai:


Khwaab thaa jo kucch ki dekhaa, jo sunaa afsaana thaa...


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
sherpafish
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1568

posted 14 December 2001 04:56 AM      Profile for sherpafish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
edited cause I'm an ass

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: sherpafish ]


From: intra-crainial razor dust | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 14 December 2001 05:16 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey. I just discovered that there are like a bunch of Urdu-speakers here. Can't we have one tiny little thread? Hmm? Please? Actually if you have a whole thread in Japanese, I really don't care!!
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
sherpafish
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1568

posted 14 December 2001 05:26 AM      Profile for sherpafish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry, Ras, I misjudged your intent. I erase my first post. Fly at 'er (like you need anyone's permission), just don't be talking about us behind our unilingual backs!
From: intra-crainial razor dust | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 14 December 2001 08:49 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Can you stand one English post? I just wanted to ask if that's Urdu script you have posted in those images. Because it looks an awful lot like Persian script - I though Urdu script is different. Oh no, wait, on closer examination, there are the double dots above the "h" equivalents (I forget the name, but the second last letter of the Persian alphabet).

I had no idea Urdu was so close in script, although I did know that it's very similar to Persian in sound. Are the letters pronounced the same way too?

argh, sorry, I'm hijacking the thread, don't bother answering my questions here - maybe I'll start a new thread.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 14 December 2001 04:21 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes it's Urdu, Michelle. The first instance is computer-typeset, but it tries to keep the shape of the traditional nastaliq style of writing, which is also the traditional Persian style of writing. Modern Persian is written by hand in a way much more like Arabic -- flat along the line. In printed texts, Persian is not exactly like Arabic, there are some different conventions, however, it is much more like Arabic than nastaliq. Up until about five years ago all Urdu newspapes in India were still written by scribes -- kaatibs -- by hand. The mastheads and large titles still usually are, but I think in most cases the kaatibs have been replaced by computers, which produce much more uniform but less attractive results. It used to take a room of about 20 calligraphers (well between a scribe and a calligrapher) to do the newspaper.

The letters are mostly pronounced the same as in Persian but with the following exceptions:

the vowels are given their Indian values, i.e. you don't get the Persian "aa" sound as in "baabaa", you get a much more open, flat "a" like in "father". Why don't I just illustrate some differences

Persian: ruz (day)
Afghan Persian (Dari) and Urdu: roz (the original Persian pronunciation)
Persian: miz (table)
Dari and Urdu: mez
Persian: daane (grain)
Dari: daana; Urdu: daanaa (all spelt the same, however)
Likewise: khaane, khaane, khaanaa
Persian: sobh (morning)
Urdu: subah
Persian: Yuusof (Joseph)
Urdu: Yuusuf


Etc., there are little differences here and there. Urdu also has sounds not in Persian, the retroflex sounds which are indicated by letters with a little "b" over them. Also, whereas in Persian "p", "t", and "k" are all aspirated (and "k" is palatalized so that it often sounds like "ch"), in Urdu they are unaspirated. When followed by do-chashmi he, they are heavily aspirated, and this is the only place in which do-chasmi-he is normally used in Urdu.


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1752

posted 15 December 2001 11:27 PM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
salaam/namaskar/sat sri akal...aap ki Urdu to bahut shaayasta lagti hai; mujhe khushi hui aap ke alfaaz parh kar. jaise ke ham Panjaabi mein kehte hain, meri Urdu bari bhairi hai gi (aur meri Panjaabi us se bhi buri hai), is liye main ghaliban bahut saare ghaltiyaan karoonga (jaise ke maine shaayad abhi ki hai). mujhe maaf karna. Urdu mein likhna mere liye koi mushkil kaam to nahin hai, phir bhi yaad rakhein ke main zara kacha hoon.

jaise ke maine pehle bhi kaha hai, ek aur "dhaage" mein meri maadari zabaan dar asl Urdu nahin hai, balke Panjaabi hai. yeh main bas is liye bataa raha hoon kyunke Panjaabi log--matlab woh Panjaabi log jo Pakistan se aaye hain, ya jin ke waalidain Pakistan se aaye hain--aksar yeh kehte hain ke "hamaari maadari zabaan Urdu hai," jo mere raae mein bilkul ghalat hai. yeh baat shaayad Panjaabiyon ka lisaani ehsaas-e-kamtari ko izhaar karti hai.

kyunke main Canada mein paida hua tha, aur yahin saari zindagi guzaari hai, meri pehli zabaan ghaliban Angrezi hi thi. mere ghar mein meri ammi Urdu aur Angrezi bolti thin; papa Panjaabi, Urdu aur Angrezi bolte the; aur meri naano Panjaabi aur Urdu bolti thin--aur baaz dafa woh Panjaabi aur Urdu ka ek lisaani masala banaa ke ek milaayi hui boli bolti thin. is liye main us waqt samajhta tha ke Urdu aur Panjaabi ek hi cheez hain.

baara tera saal ki umr tak main apni zabaan mein koi dilchaspi nahin rakhta tha; na Urdu mein, aur na hi Panjaabi mein...Pakistan sirf ek baar gaya, do hafte ke liye, aur tab bhi kisi se baat hi nahin kar saka, zabaan ke masle ki wajah se. magar jab main highschool mein dakhil hua, pata nahin kyun magar aahista aahista mere dil mein desi tehzeeb aur adab ki muhabbat paida ho gayi. grade 11 mein maine apne aap ko Urdu rasmu'l-khatt sikhaana shuru kiya...aur seekh seekh ke, mujhe aakhirkaar pata chala ke meri asli zabaan Urdu hi nahin hai...yeh waaqi'a bhi pata nahin kab hua. jab yeh baat mere aql mein bas chuki thi, to maine Urdu aur Panjaabi ko saath saath parhna shuru kiya, magar khaas taur par Panjaabi. Bullhe Shah, Shah Hussain, Hasham Shah, Waaris Shah...baad mein in saare Panjaabi adabi baadshaahon ki shaayari parhne ka shauq paida hua.

OAC mein main ek Urdu-daan larki ke pyaar mein giriftaar hua, aur sochne laga ke agar meri manzil mein aisi saathi hai jo Panjaabi nahin jaanti, to mere bache kaise seekhenge? us waqt bhi mujhe Urdu bolni hi nahin aati thi...to maine faisala kiya ke main pehle Urdu achhi tarha seekhunga, aur phir Panjaabi. khuda ka aur meri mahbuba ka shukar hai ke main ab Urdu theek thaak bol leta hoon, aur Panjaabi par bhi maine kaam jaari rakha hai. jaami'e yaani university mein Angrezi parh raha hoon, aur saath saath Arabi aur Faarsi le raha hoon taake Urdu Panjaabi alfaaz (jo aksar un zabaanon se aate hain) se zyaada waaqafiyat paida ho jaye. agle saal shaayad Hindi bhi loonga. Angrezi mein BA haasil karne ke baad inshallah main Taqaabuli Adabiyyat (yaani Comparative Literature) parhunga.

khair...yeh sab baatein Mir Taaqi Mir ki shaairi se koi ta'alluq nahin rakhti hain...magar ab meri zindagi ki kahaani aapke saamne maujood hai. Mir ke baare mein main yeh kehna chahunga ke woh mere pasandeeda Urdu shaairon mein se hain...aur sach puchhein to is ki wajah yeh hai ke woh parhne mein bahut aasaan hain. Ghalib aur Iqbal se to main door bhaagta hoon! magar phir bhi, mujhe "Shikwa" bahut pasand hai.

main zara faarigh ho kar ek Panjaabi shir aur uska tarjuma arz karta hoon. kal Eid ki namaaz ke liye jaldi uthna hai; mujhe sona chahiye abhi. shab bakhair....aur

EID MUBAARAK!!!


From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 16 December 2001 05:18 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Eid Mubaarak ho! Aur khush aamadiid is mehfil ko. Ham thoRii der bad men aur kuchh likhenge. (Ham ne UP men Urdu sikhi, islie "main" ki bajaay "ham" likhte hain.)
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
NukeMecca
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1997

posted 02 January 2002 04:09 AM      Profile for NukeMecca     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Only two words of English needed here.
From: Winnipeg | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
meades
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 625

posted 02 January 2002 05:05 AM      Profile for meades     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I can think of three.

Go. Away. NM.

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: meades ]


From: Sault Ste. Marie | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 02 January 2002 07:17 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi NukeMecca, I'm actually the moderator of this forum. Please do not return to it.
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
judym
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 29

posted 02 January 2002 11:36 PM      Profile for judym   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
audra estrones
big sister
Member # 2
posted January 02, 2002 02:25 PM            

quote:
He's gone.

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: judym ]


From: earth | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
DeportThabani
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2003

posted 03 January 2002 03:15 AM      Profile for DeportThabani   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
TIKEH NUNEH BA OB KHRELEH BEZORG UA KHRUBE GOYAST INO BERGERAM
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 03 January 2002 03:19 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I bet you had to run that through a translator program.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 03 January 2002 03:40 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey DeportThabani:

1) Stay out of this forum;

2) It's Thobani, not Thabani -- I thought you might like to know this, since you seem to fancy yourself quite clever.

DrC, I suppose you know that DT just posted a string of arbitrary characters?


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DeportThabani
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2003

posted 03 January 2002 03:43 AM      Profile for DeportThabani   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You say Thobani,
I say Thabani.
Let's call the whole thing off.

From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 03 January 2002 03:48 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Like I said, I highly doubted that DepartThabani actually knows any of the languages in this thread other than English
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 03 January 2002 03:15 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
She knows English?
From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 03 January 2002 03:41 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Drat! That was gonna be my line.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
meades
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 625

posted 03 January 2002 04:03 PM      Profile for meades     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was gonna say something similar, but I didn't like the way I was phrasing it, so I decided against the post altogether. I figured the way I had phrased it could be too easily misunderstood.
From: Sault Ste. Marie | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1752

posted 04 January 2002 05:14 PM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i personally think that the best response to NM/DT's stunningly juvenile post is to ignore it and to go on with the thread. attention-seekers should simply be denied the satisfaction of believing that anyone actually cares what they say. however, their posts should, i think, purposely be retained (selectively, if they occur in large volumes) by the moderators, and not censored, as they can later be cited as examples of the sad desperation of the chronically prejudiced, and can eventually be used to undermine their causes. to see such posts as being intrinsically suicidal in this manner is to feel satisfaction, rather than annoyance, each time someone like NM or DT posts a sentence.

and meanwhile, if i feel a need to react to NM/DT, i can do it at random in any of the non-English languages in which i can speak, read, and/or write, i.e., French, Latin, Arabic, Persian, Urdu and Punjabi, and perhaps Rasmus can provide more.

so...on with the thread (sorry for the delay):

main kaeen hafte pehle...shayad eid se bhi pehle keh raha tha ke main ek Panjaabi shir arz karoonga, magar koi waqt nahin mila aur phir main bilkul bhul gaya. waise us dauraan main Faiz Ahmad Faiz ki shaayari parh raha tha. ek aazaad nazm mila jo us naatak se nisbat rakhta hai jo aaj kal Pakistan Hindustan ke beech ho raha hai, balke woh san 1965 mein likha hua tha.

i've also posted Naomi Lazard's translation of Faiz Ahmad Faiz's poem "Blackout", written in 1965 during the war between India and Pakistan. it is particularly relevant today, as the two countries recommence their Manichaean drama. i suppose lefties would be interested to know that Faiz was a leftist, and i suppose it was for this reason that he was in jail and in exile so much. the whole Taraqqi Pasand Adab (Progressive Literature) movement was fairly socialist, as i understand it, and it seems to have been as influential in Pakistan as Modernism was in the West. Lazard's translation is decent, but it's no subsitute for the original. one of its flaws, imo, is that she translates the third line, "my eyes are lost," whereas it literally says "*both* my eyes are lost," and i think that placing stress on the duality of eyes would make the poem easier to interpret.

blackout

jab se be noor hui hain sham'ein
khaak mein DhoonDta phirta hoon na jaane kis jaa
kho gayi hain meri donon aankhein
tum jo waaqif ho bataao koi pehchaan meri
is tarh hai ke har ik rag mein utar aaya hai
mauj dar mauj kisi zehr ka qaatil daryaa
tera armaan teri yaad liye, jaan meri
jaane kis mauj mein ghaltaan hai kahaan dil mera
ek pal Thero ke us paar kisi duniya se
barq aaye meri jaanib yad-e-baizaa le kar
aur meri aankhon ke gum gashtah guhar
jaam-e-zulmat se siyah mast nayi aankhon ke shab taab guhar
lauTaa de
ek pal Thero ke daryaa ka kaheen paaT lage
aur naya dil mera
zehr mein dhul ke, fanaa ho ke, kisi ghaaT lage
phir pai-e-nazr naye deedah o dil le ke chaloon
husn ki madh karoon, shauq ka mazmoon likkhoon

Blackout
Since our lights were extinguished
I have been for a way to see;
my eyes are lost, God knows where.

You who know me, tell me who I am,
who is a friend, and who an enemy.
A murderous river has been unleashed
into my veins; hatred beats in it.

Be patient; a flash of lightning will come
from another horizon like the white hand
of Moses with my eyes, my lost diamonds.

Only wait a while; the river will find its shores.
My new heart, purified in the acid-bath of poison,
will sail into a harbor.

On that day, my dear one,
I will take up my work again, the songs to beauty,
my epistles of love.

aur Kavve Sahib, hamme dar asl Nuun Meem ko shukriya adaa karna chahiye, ke unhon ne hamaare dhaage ko ek nayi zindagi bakhshi hai. waise, abhi tak mere samajh mein nahin aaya ke aap ko Uttar Pradeshi Urdu mein likhna kaise aata hai, jab ke aap ka asal naam maghribi lagta hai. ya shaayad woh bhi masnu'i hai? aap ke mukhtalif naamon ke muta'aliq ek aur bhed hai: teen saal ke liye Latini parhne ke baais main yeh to samajh sakta hoon ke aap ka naam aur "kavve" ka Latini lafz kya nisbat rakhte hain...magar yeh kavvon/ravens ke shauq ka matlab kya hai?


From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
alldaybreakfast
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1071

posted 12 January 2002 01:37 AM      Profile for alldaybreakfast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Seven languages? Sweet. I envy you, Mohamad.

[ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: alldaybreakfast ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1752

posted 12 January 2002 11:30 AM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
well...my Latin's almost gone thanks to lack of practice. eheu! quid faciam?
From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 12 January 2002 04:16 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
*chuckle* And to think I speak, read and write but one language!
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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