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Author Topic: Strange things happen all the time
clockwork
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posted 12 August 2002 03:28 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
And what of the deaths of nearly a dozen scientists? Is it really possible that they all just happened to die, most in such peculiar, jarring ways, within so short a time? ''We can never say for a fact that something isn't a conspiracy,'' says Bradley Efron, a professor of statistics at Stanford. ''We can just point out the odds that it isn't.''

The odds of that

Somehow I think this is pertinent to some of the debate here on babble.


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 12 August 2002 05:17 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's very pertinent to our Spooks vs. Science debate. People look for meaning in patterns, numbers, coincidences, Elvis' face in a pizza, the bumps on someone's head, a burning bush, lights in the night sky. People still believe that the future is predetermined by a configuration of stars or a pattern of leaves at the bottom of a teacup. But, as Tommy Paine has pointed out, the Spook explanations almost invariably fail the Occam's Razor test.
From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 12 August 2002 05:49 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You mean Jesus really didn't appear on the wall of a Tim Hortons in Cape Breton?

And is it a coincidence that the NY Times would refer to the Globe & Mail as "Toronto's"?

[ August 12, 2002: Message edited by: clockwork ]


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 12 August 2002 06:15 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Regarding the Occam's Razor test. The simplest explanation for everything is, "God did it."

Why is the sky blue?
"God wills it."

Why does water freeze?
"God wills it."

It can be a completely coherent explanation for everything in the world too. What about contradictions? "God wills contradictions."

Perfect. Doesn't fail Occam's Razor at all.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rici
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posted 12 August 2002 07:00 PM      Profile for rici     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Occam's Razor was a bit more precise than "the simplest explanation" -- it certainly doesn't mean that the shortest explanation wins.

quote:
Because Occam's razor is sometimes called the principle of simplicity some simpleminded creationists have argued that Occam's razor can be used to support creationism over evolution. After all, having God create everything is much simpler than evolution, which is a very complex mechanism. But Occam's razor does not say that the more simpleminded a hypothesis, the better. If it did, Occam's would be dull razor for a dim populace indeed.

(from the above link, which is quite a good discussion.)


It should be noted that Occam himself was not bothered by the existence of God, which he took on faith.


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Michelle
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posted 12 August 2002 11:32 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's true. And it certainly doesn't make the cut when it comes to multiplying entities unnecessarily. After all, creating a God entity isn't exactly sticking to what's only necessary for the most concise explanation.

I was just trolling a bit, good naturedly, of course!


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
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posted 13 August 2002 01:57 AM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When dealing with a topic like this, in a realm where if you don't know everything, you know nothing, how can we say what is mere chance and what is fate/destiny/divine intervention?

The fact of the matter is, is that what we personally believe doesn't matter to whatever is the truth. If there is really a God out there pushing us around like chess pieces; or if the Universe is entirely a mathematical construction where all numbers need to add up to 11; or if the mysterious forces of the Tao pull us together and push us apart depending on how we flow with everything else, our personal beliefs have no effect. This goes for Occam's Razor too.

Just because something is a good sounding theory doesn't make it right. The horizon still looks flat to me, even if the world is round.

I'm losing cohesiveness as I babble on. I'll shut up now.


From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
TommyPaineatWork
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posted 13 August 2002 02:07 AM      Profile for TommyPaineatWork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A cluster of similar events happening isn't unusual; in fact in statistics it is to be expected and it is called the poison distribution, if memory serves.(if not spelling-- Poison, pronounced like the French word for "fish", not like the English word for stuff toxic stuff.)
From: London | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 13 August 2002 02:36 AM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
dale cooper, the word you use, cohesiveness, is not a significant perquisite of a post to babble. I have been "incohesive" (I use quotes because Merriam-Websters online, and my software dictionary, flags it as a spelling mistake, ie, a non-word) on numerous occasions.

I only quibble that:

quote:
or if the Universe is entirely a mathematical construction where all numbers need to add up to 11;

is wrong because, well, everyone knows that it adds up to 42.

From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 13 August 2002 04:08 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Perfect. Doesn't fail Occam's Razor at all
An invisible supernatural omnipotent being who created the universe and is responsible for much that goes on in it, but for some reason offers no proof of its existence? God unfortunately fails Occam's little test. (Insert Nelson ha-ha)

quote:
A cluster of similar events happening isn't unusual; in fact in statistics it is to be expected and it is called the poison distribution, if memory serves
Ayup. French mathematician Poisson's statistical algorithm gives us a mathematical understanding of how relatively rare events can occur in close proximity. It's mostly used in manufacturing to predict screwups on the line, but you can apply it to any number of event clusters. Like when everything in your life goes horribly awry all at once - poisson distribution! Aunt Mabel dying three months after Uncle Fred, whose death was close on the heels of Freckles the cat's early demise - poisson distribution!

Of course, I use the less fancy-schmancy name for it. Cluster fuck.

Edited: for hideous spelling

[ August 13, 2002: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 13 August 2002 11:22 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But what has always bugged me about Occam's Razor is this. Say something really, really weird and out of the ordinary took place, but nobody saw that weird thing happen - all they saw was the result. And say that result is the same result that would have happened from a mundane, everyday thing. When we try to guess what happened, we would say that the mundane, everyday thing happened, using Occam's Razor, when in actual fact the really, really weird and out of the ordinary thing happened. And if anyone said, "Hey, I wonder if the reason for that result was this really, really weird and out of the ordinary thing?" they would be considered a weirdo and conspiracy theorist and the like.

Well, it's just a thought. One that's always bugged me. Maybe that's why conspiracy theories are so popular with so many people - you just never know - even if the odds are against something, and there are a million things more likely, it doesn't mean something CAN'T happen. Only, we'll never believe it if it does because we'll be shaving with Occam.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
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posted 13 August 2002 11:48 PM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I totally agree with you Michelle. I don't really know a lot about Occam's Razor, but it seems to me that discrediting all other possible causes for an event because they are not the simplest explaination is no different than claiming "It's God's will". It seems like a way for people to get out of having to truly question the cause and effect of an event by shrugging it off to one default cause (or in this case, one default set of causes). "There (truly) are more things in heaven and earth..." and some of them make bizarre bumps in the night.
From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 14 August 2002 12:06 AM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know a lot about Occam's razor either, but I think, in the meaning I've always read it or heard it in, it is supposed to suggest that the simplest explanation is probably the most likely. I don't think there are Occam's Razor fundamentalists out there that think everything must have the simplest explanation. I always viewed it as a rule of thumb.

If people don't like me, I can either think of the explanation that I'm just not a personable type of guy, or I can construct a theory about an anti-clockwork club that operates in the shadows, feeding everyone lies about me and that is why people don't like me. Oops... I was supposed to let on that I know about them. Now I'm really in for it!


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
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posted 14 August 2002 12:20 AM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It just seems far too simple for me. I don't think that the most complicated solution is always correct, but I'm not big on extremes either. It's not either Occam's razor OR conspiracy theory. Maybe the reason no one likes you is because someone mistook a comment you once made and has been telling everyone you're a meanie for it. Not that I believe people don't like you. Just staying with the example.

That seems like a nice middle of the road explaination. I believe everything should be examined individually as a seperate event, but also with your mind on other events. As soon as you start meking generalizations of any kind, you've lost the ability to make an objective decision.


From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 14 August 2002 12:47 AM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ah, but if that one person went around telling people I'm a meanie and then everyone doesn't like me because of that, that means that I'm not personable enough to overcome the lie being spread about me. So it still comes down to me and not the conspiracy against me.

That is why I love philosophy.

All that I'm saying is that it is handy reference. From the link above by Rici lake:

quote:
Occam's razor is also called the principle of parsimony. These days it is usually interpreted to mean something like "the simpler the explanation, the better" or "don't multiply hypotheses unnecessarily." In any case, Occam's razor is a principle which is frequently used outside of ontology, e.g., by philosophers of science in an effort to establish criteria for choosing from among theories with equal explanatory power. When giving explanatory reasons for something, don't posit more than is necessary. Von Däniken could be right: maybe extraterrestrials did teach ancient people art and engineering, but we don't need to posit alien visitations in order to explain the feats of ancient people. Why posit pluralities unnecessarily? Or, as most would put it today, don't make any more assumptions than you have to. We can posit the ether to explain action at a distance, but we don't need ether to explain it, so why assume an ethereal ether?

From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
TommyPaineatWork
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posted 14 August 2002 12:57 AM      Profile for TommyPaineatWork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Clockwork explained it pretty well, Michelle, and I'm probably bringing coals to Newcastle to further point out that Occam's razor doesn't dictate the "right" answer, just indicates the explanation that is more likely to be correct.

Occam's razor isn't always appropriate. Sometimes there is so little data, fact or evidence at our disposal that it's quite useless.

Estimating the likelyhood of life existing elsewhere in the Universe is probably a good example where Occam's razor becomes Occam's butterknife.


From: London | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
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posted 14 August 2002 11:12 AM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But how about the fact that the simplest explaination, or the explaination with the least attached to it, is relative? Today we can say that aliens probably didn't build the pyramids because we don't really think they exist and it's simpler to say they were built by exploited Egyptian labourers. However, if aliens were to land tomorrow, all of a sudden the facts we have at our disposal change and aliens becomes a workable solution to the pyramids.

Human science has a tendency to think that the information we currently possess is the be-all and end-all of information everywhere, until something new pops up and we incorporate it and pretend we knew it all along. It's not the case. It's impossible to say what's the simplest/mose feasible explaination because our knowledge is so limited that we don't have the resources to make estimates about nearly anything. For all we know, someone may come up with undeniable proof that Euclidean geometry is completely wrong next week and then where are we with our entire scientific background?


From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 14 August 2002 11:30 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Tommy, I never claimed that Occam's Razor is not useful. But when you talk about something not being true "because it fails Occam's Razor", then you're the one who is taking it further than it can logically go. When you talk about something "passing" or "failing" Occam's Razor, you're implying that Occam's Razor is the truth test that something has to pass, when in fact something could be true while "failing" the Occam's Razor test.

I have never claimed anything beyond the POSSIBILITY of something unlikely being true. It is you who regularly claims the impossibility of the unlikely being true. And all I'm saying is that using Occam's Razor to prove it is faulty.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Apemantus
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posted 14 August 2002 12:20 PM      Profile for Apemantus        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This should amuse those not much taken with science, whilst also adding fuel to the fire of those who think it is the best method of investigation.

That science continually renews itself, by challenging its own tenets, is a source of strength not weakness


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