Author
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Topic: High Speed Rail Step Closer?
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Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214
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posted 07 July 2003 12:30 PM
Collinette was in town, here's his pipe dream:The problem with this "High Speed" rail line is that by the time it is done, it will already be obsolete. Mag Lev is the way to go, particularly when the air line industry has proven to be too fragile for the needs of the nation. Mag Lev has supersonic capabilities, think of that. Anyway, the other reason this so called high speed rail line won't be much of an improvment is because of the location of train stations. It would still require Via to utilize CN right of ways in yards and this is where the delays are.
A dedicated Via line is the way to go, if we go with this "trailing edge technology", but if isn't 100% dedicated, you can forget dependable, on time service.
From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001
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majorvictory
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2878
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posted 07 July 2003 01:32 PM
The big problem with Maglev right now is cost. All projected lines have been scrapped due to the multi-billions needed. Only China is going ahead with a small political showpiece line. It says something quite negative about the practicality of a whizbang new technology if even the technocracies of the west don't think it is financially or politically feasible. China first to run maglev train quote: China first to run maglev train On 31 December, China inaugurated the world’s first commercial magnetic-levitation (maglev) rail system, links Shanghai’s Pudong business district with the Pudong International Airport. Aboard the train for the test run along the 30 km route–during which the train reached speeds of 425 km/h–were Chinese Premier Zhu Rongji and German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder. Schröder was there to extol the technology’s virtues and push for its use in new high-speed train projects in China and elsewhere. After the 14-minute trip, Schröder announced that China had already agreed to extend the existing route south to Hangzhou and north to Nanjing–a route that would cover 290 km and cost more than $5 billion to build. But an executive at the company that operates the train said a final decision has not been made on whether German companies would win the contract. The Germans have strong competition. As part of their winning bid to build the Pudong maglev line, the German companies agreed to transfer technology related to the trains, the track, and automation controls to the Shanghai Maglev Transportation Development Co., which has begun developing its own version of the maglev. Though the first Chinese-made maglev train has yet to exceed 100 km/h, the government says it will put the train in commercial service and watch as technical improvements make it faster. The Chinese government is also being lobbied by Japanese companies and the Tokyo government to use Japan’s bullet train technology for long-distance rail connections such as the Hangzhou—Nanjing line and a 1250-km route connecting Beijing and Shanghai that is being proposed. These projects are part of a Chinese government plan for a five-year, $31 billion upgrade of its national railway network. Germany’s Schröder would like to see maglev adopted on a wide scale. German engineering and industrial giants such as Siemens and ThyssenKrupp–who built the train cars and the signaling equipment along the Pudong route–would recoup the billions of dollars they have spent developing the technology. Schröder’s visit was to pitch maglev propulsion to a world of skeptics turned off by the technology’s high cost. Critics note that although Germany has led the world in development of the technology, no maglev trains are running there because of squabbling over financing. In 1992, a 250-km high-speed line, which would have connected Berlin and the northern port city of Hamburg, was projected to cost DM3.6 billion. By February 2000, when the project was scrapped, the project’s cost was estimated at DM8 billion. China, say the critics, was willing to foot the US $1.3 billion bill for the Pudong project just to show how advanced it is becoming. But in Germany, another domestic project, a 60-km line between Dortmund and Duesseldorf now on the drawing board, is being threatened by arguments between private firms and public agencies over financing.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002
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Willowdale Wizard
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3674
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posted 07 July 2003 05:34 PM
well, it's not just the high cost. in 2000, quote: German officials canceled plans to build and operate a maglev train on a 185-mile route between Hamburg and Berlin. They cited its nearly $5 billion cost -- when current train service is regular and reliable -- as well as environmental concerns that the maglev might produce deafening sound waves or potentially harmful electromagnetic radiation.
or, if you prefer, quote: powerful environmental lobbies in Germany say the magnetically powered trains pose health hazards for people and animals because of their electromagnetic fields; they fanned passions last summer that threatened to bring down the entire program
From: england (hometown of toronto) | Registered: Jan 2003
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lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534
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posted 07 July 2003 06:16 PM
Existing German high-speed trains are very efficient. Not sure if it is worth such a huge investment to chop half an hour of such a trip. I'm no expert on trains, but I think it would be wiser to go for tested high-speed rail technology and eliminate the right of way and crossing problems. We do have our winters to worry about too. If it can make Montréal -Toronto in three hours, that is much faster than the plane with security and check in times and travel between airports and the city centres where both railway stations are located. I wish there was some way the Ottawa railway station could be brought back into the city centre. It was ideally located opposite the Château Laurier and very close to Parliament. The Québec City railway station in the Lower Town has been re-opened and carefully restored. Before, the train stopped in suburban Ste-Foy.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002
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Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214
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posted 08 July 2003 08:27 AM
I take a sceptical view of mag lev systems causing health problems. The only part of the track that is electrified is the section the train is currently traveling on, so it's not a constant.The last word I heard on health concerns due to electricity comes from studies that show a higher cancer rate amoung people who have high power lines running through their back yards. Because there are many other factors that could explain the higher incidence of cancer, I don't think the studies can be termed as anything but inconclusive. But, my info is a bit old, maybe there's been more research. Because mag lev is increadibly fast, incentives for compact nations in Europe to replace damn fine existing rail are not that powerful. But Canada is a tad larger, with widely dispersed population centers, and open areas where supersonic speed wouldn't be such a bother. Considering we in Canada are living with a system that is, I kid you not, slower and less efficient than steam locomotive technology, the jump to mag lev would put us back where we should be, a technology leader. The first hurdle in any rail system, however, is to rid ourselves of the myopic idea that rail has to pay for itself like it was a private concern. We subsidize every other mode of travel, VIA should be no exception. Ticket prices are too high, and serve the interests of the auto and air line sector instead of the public good.
From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276
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posted 10 July 2003 10:32 PM
Here is the other side of the story. quote: The majority of cars on Highway 401 travel 125-kilometres or less. In other words, only a fraction of vehicles go all the way from Toronto to Montreal (and even fewer travel from Windsor to Quebec City). In fact, if you could magically remove all of the cars making the Toronto to Montreal trip on Highway 401, you'd only diminish traffic by one car, per lane, every three minutes. . . . smaller communities will likely start losing rail service even before the fast train is built. Once it does start running, we can expect passenger train service will be lost altogether in small Ontario towns such as Alexandria, Smiths Falls, Cobourg and Belleville.
This article is by a strategic planning guy for the Air Transport Association of Canada, so one should be sceptical. Still, I have a feeling his facts may be correct.
From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002
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Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214
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posted 11 July 2003 07:42 AM
That Globe column was a laughable piece of self serving crap.The question I'd like to ask Mr. Air Transport spin doctor is when was the last time someone highjacked a high speed train and crashed it into an office tower? Face it, for many reasons the air line industry is too precarious a business for the nation to find it reliable. And, there was no mention whatsoever of the traffic volumes on the 401 from Windsor to Toronto. I wonder why? Federal and provincial governments will be spending billions over the next decade or so widening the 401 in this section. How is it we don't have a problem subsidizing this mode of transport, but somehow subsidizing rail is wrong? This guy is so full of self serving dogma, it's not even funny. Since the time of the Romans, it has been recognized that a subsidized transportation system is key to economic stability and success. The only air carriers that are able to make a go of it privately are small ones that poach profitable routes. The experience of Air Canada should tell us that private enterprise cannot serve the national interest when it comes to transportation.
From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001
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Willowdale Wizard
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3674
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posted 11 July 2003 10:04 AM
quote: The question I'd like to ask Mr. Air Transport spin doctor is when was the last time someone highjacked a high speed train and crashed it into an office tower?
right, but as a megaproject of any kind, it would be a target for terrorists. the CN tower now has air sampling to check for chem/biological weapons. actually, i'm pleasantly surprised that terrorism against trains (amtrak in the US, the UK, germany's system and german troops in afghanistan) hasn't occured. but sadly, it wouldn't take a bunch of skill to rev up the speed on four-five co-ordinated trains bound for new york's grand central station (or five ICE trains within the same hour in germany) and crash them. or, just copy real life, the potters bar accident recently in the UK is being blamed on faulty maintance of the points (the adjustable stretcher bars which keep the moveable section of track at the correct width for the train's wheels). 20% were loosened in a given stretch of track, privatisation of the rail network, , and it led to this: [ 11 July 2003: Message edited by: Willowdale Wizard ]
From: england (hometown of toronto) | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276
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posted 11 July 2003 03:11 PM
quote: who says that the only users of the high speed rail would be people going from Windsor to Quebec City, or Toronto to Montreal? I would use it to get back and forth between Kingston and Toronto, a trip that would otherwise have me in a bus on the highway. Why shouldn't the train service people who are travelling for 125 km?
Right. That's precisely the point. In Europe (especially Germany) you would see an hourly fast train from Toronto to Montreal stopping at Kingston, fed by an hourly local train stopping everywhere from Toronto to Kingston, and feeding one or more trains continuing from Kingston to Ottawa or a local to Montreal. Too often, no one says that. We train fans from outside the GTA get nervous.
From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002
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