Ha'aretz

[ 20 April 2006: Message edited by: ohara ]

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"The first target is Israel. For us, that is the battlefield," he told the paper. "All the Jews are targets, whether military or civilian. It's our land and they are in the wrong place. It's their duty to pay attention to safety of their own families and move them away from the battlefield," he said.

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And BTW I take your suggestion about the title and will change it accordingly.

Edited to remove gratuitous statement about Josh

[ 20 April 2006: Message edited by: ohara ]

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"This is an open call to all our fighters in the homeland to focus on kidnapping Israeli soldiers and civilians inside our occupied land," the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades said in a statement. It added: "If the enemy does not release our prisoners, then Zionists outside Palestine will be an easy target for our fighters."

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Josh even you must see that the extremists terrorists here are targeting Israeli jews for murder even you.

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Originally posted by josh:
Call it murder if you will. But my underlying point remains. As long as Israel subjects another people to occupation, and there exits a gross imbalance in power, these types of actions will take place.

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Just as an illustration, South Africa, for generations was under a brutal white Apartheid regime yet the Black South Africans did not strap bombs to their bodies and blow up white Africanner children in family eateries.

India was ruled for decades by colonialist Great Britain yet at no time did Ghandi and his followers purposely attack innocent civilians by blowing up restaurants and buses. The list is endless Josh. Stop making excuses for suicide bombings.

[ 20 April 2006: Message edited by: ohara ]

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Originally posted by writer:

This is plain insulting. Please cut it out.

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Originally posted by ohara:

India was ruled for decades by colonialist Great Britain yet at no time did Ghanid and his followers purposely attack innocent civilians by blowing up restaurants and buses. The list is endless Josh. Stop making excuses for suicide bombings.

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Originally posted by S1m0n:

Clearly, Israel should have been wiser in it's choice of people to oppress.

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Originally posted by ohara:

Just as an illustration, South Africa, for generations was under a brutal white Apartheid regime yet the Black South Africans did not strap bombs to their bodies and blow up white Africanner children in family eateries.

India was ruled for decades by colonialist Great Britain yet at no time did Ghanid and his followers purposely attack innocent civilians by blowing up restaurants and buses. The list is endless Josh. Stop making excuses for suicide bombings.

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I'm not sure there weren't what could be called "terrorist" actions in India. After all, Gandhi wasn't all there was, and he ended up being murdered.

In any event, you're comparing different cultures and histories. Assasinations and bombings have a long history in the Arab world, as they do in other places. And those actions are tactics of the weak, born out of frustration. Combine that history, with the power inbalance and political reality, and it's not surprising such tactics are being used. And there have been period of relative quiet, particulary in the first 20 years of the occupation, and yet Israel refused to end the occupation, but rather expanded the colonization process. In addition, Israel has refused to talk with the Palestinian leadership for over five years.

[ 20 April 2006: Message edited by: josh ]

[ 20 April 2006: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

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it's unlikely I would blow up a school bus full of US children as it would not strengthen my position, but if I were attacking a strategic road, and a school bus full of USian children happened to be caught in the blast, then I would consider it the responsibility of the occupiers for bringing about these deaths.)

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Would you target a restaurant where there are women and children, some men of military age, senior citizens and foreign nationals?

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Are not all Palestinians targets?

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(ie. it's unlikely I would blow up a school bus full of US children as it would not strengthen my position, but if I were attacking a strategic road, and a school bus full of USian children happened to be caught in the blast, then I would consider it the responsibility of the occupiers for bringing about these deaths.)

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From the article.

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"Britain and other European countries have a lot of disaffected Muslims who are ready. We understand the suspicion with which Britain, America and other western countries regard their Muslim populations. We don't condemn them for this because we believe every Muslim has the potential to turn into a bomb against the west."

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

Or roll tanks and bulldozers over refugee camp of women and children, some men of military age, senior citizens and foreign nationals?

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Originally posted by ohara:
And Josh I now see according to the Forward that another Islamic terrorist group is making noise about targeting "Zionists" (pretty well read Jews) outside of Israel so I guess I wasn't that far off the mark, sad to say.

The Forward

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Originally posted by ohara:
And Josh I now see according to the Forward that another Islamic terrorist group is making noise about targeting "Zionists" (pretty well read Jews) outside of Israel so I guess I wasn't that far off the mark, sad to say.

The Forward

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
All Jewish people are not Zionists. Your suggestion to read Zionists to include all Jews says a lot about your mind set.

Are you actually trying to deny that the Israeli government has killed innocent women and children in its indiscriminate reprisals of reprisals of reprisals ... It never ends until both sides stop killing civilians.

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Originally posted by josh:

It is certainly something to be taken with some seriousness given the bombing at the Jewish community center in Buenos Aires in 1992. It is also another example of how a Jewish state in middle east has not only failed to be a "haven" for Jews, but has actually made it less safe for Jews around the world.

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Originally posted by ohara:
Your implication is insulting.

Secondly I wonder how these Islamic terrorist groups planning assaults on "Zionists" outside Israel can tell a Jew from a Zionist. I guess they will make a few mistakes until they get it just right.

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"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.

When both sides start practising their religion the senseless killing will end. No one in the Middle East wishes to become collateral damage.

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:

I personally have little time for anyone who says god gave me this land and only me and my people have a special relationship with the one and only god. Maybe Zionists should stick to the god is unknowable part of their beliefs and leave behind the I know god wants me to have this land that others are living on. False pride is a moral disease.

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Originally posted by Serendipity:
ohara perhaps its worth remembering that in Arabic, there is only one word that means both Jew and Israeli.
You should take that into account when interpreting the statement in your first post.

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
Islam: Ohara when you start relating to the suffering of both sides you will have true understanding. What you post is "commentary."

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Ohara when you start relating to the suffering of both sides you will have true understanding. What you post is "commentary."

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Almost everything posted in the middle east forum is "commentary". Typically a news story gets posted, with a comment to start with. Then other people comment. Usually, discussion of the specific article lasts four or five posts, then it turns into a game of oneupmanship. "they bulldozed refugees!", "they blew up a pizza stand"

I don't think anybody here really believes it's okay to suicide bomb restaurants, or fire missiles into apartment buildings.

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Originally posted by Serendipity:
ohara perhaps its worth remembering that in Arabic, there is only one word that means both Jew and Israeli.

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Originally posted by ohara:
This is plain insulting. Please cut it out.

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Originally posted by ohara:
Would you target a restaurant where there are women and children, some men of military age, senior citizens and foreign nationals?

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If the US were occupying Canada and killing Canadians, and Canadians were being treated like rabid dogs while US and foreign nationalists were enjoying the high life in our restaurants off the suffering of Canadians, and there was no foreseeable future for Canadians? Very possibly ... Why? What would you as a Canadian be doing to fight the occupiers? Licking their boots?

Stop the brutality against the Palestinians and the brutality against the Jews will end.
Simple really. it's just too bad the big, fat bloated brutal destructive and tainted egos keep getting in the way.

If more women were leaders of the Middle East these macho problems would vanish. Until then enjoy your 'death and destruction' fantasy suckers.

Many people will die for not a damn good reason.

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Originally posted by S1m0n:

Perhaps, but not undeserved.

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Originally posted by mary123:
Where force is used against an oppressed people force will always be used back against them.

Stop the brutality against the Palestinians and the brutality against the Jews will end.
Simple really. it's just too bad the big, fat bloated brutal destructive and tainted egos keep getting in the way.

If more women were leaders of the Middle East these macho problems would vanish. Until then enjoy your 'death and destruction' fantasy suckers.

Many people will die for not a damn good reason.

Enjoy your Middle East religions.

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Originally posted by ohara:
Your attitude is the entire problem with the Middle east thread

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Let me get this straight--you think that ackowleging the reality of Israeli treatment is 'insulting'?

To whom, precisely? To Israel? Israel doesn't have standing to claim ad hominem in this forum.

To you, then? If so, you're fantasizing, or have a persecution complex. The comment you're so strenuously objecting to had nothing at all to do with you, personally.

Ultimately, the source of insult to Israel is their OWN behaviour. Contradicting the official lie causes brief moments of congnitive dissidence in Israel's supporters tiny minds, and so provokes an immediate 'shouting down" response, as well as unfounded accusations--like yours--of insult, racism, anti-semitism or the like.

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Originally posted by josh:
I posted that for a couple of reasons. One, your thread title implies that all Jews are targeted. At least from this proclamation, that is not the case. Also, while it's fair for you to use the word murder, that's your word for it.

I never like to see death advocated. However, a state of war exists between Israel and Palestine. Civilian deaths, on both sides, are inevitable. As I have said before, while I don't believe targeting civilians is justified, it is understandable given the nature of the dispute and the great disparity of force between the two sides.

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One of the things I have to do on a regular basis is grab from what I read, and what I am told, implied intent. "The first target is Israel..." The wording to a military analyst is clear. The first target is Jews in Isreal, the second target is Jews everywhere else. The usage of the words "The first target is Israel..." is very compelling, and very dark.

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Originally posted by unionist:

Serendipity, are you suggesting that the same word is used for Israeli Jews as for Israeli Arabs? Or are you suggesting that Arabs in Israel are not Israelis?

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I'll adress your second question first. I was making a point about Arabic semantics. I am not suggesting that Israeli Arabs are not Israeli. I'm not suggesting anything.

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Originally posted by ohara:
Yes I think the word is "yehud". So as far as Islamic terrorists are concerend all Israelis are Jews and all Jews Israelis

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Originally posted by Reason:

Both sides have been fucking this issue up for decades. To openly advocate attacking non-comabatants draws a clear line from "accidently" killing non-combatants. The tactics both side make me ill, but to see one actually go out and say it. .

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Thank you Reason for saying it much better than me.

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23 January 2006

Munadel Mohammad Saleh Abu Elai’a, 13,
of El-Mughayer village, Ramallah District
Shot by Israeli forces in the back.

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[ 21 April 2006: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

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26 January 2006

Aya Mohammad Suliman Al-Astal, 9,
of Khan Younis, Gaza Strip
Shot several times by Israeli forces near the Kissufim Crossing in the central Gaza Strip.

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Originally posted by ohara:
"The Committee for the Commemoration of Martyrs of the Global Islamic Campaign" have now marked all Jews in Israel for murder. Sounds sadly all too familiar.

Ha'aretz

[ 20 April 2006: Message edited by: ohara ]

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Thems the brakes...

Just curious, why would Israel think that IT'S security is even an issue when it continues to steal and illegally occupy land?
The 'safety' of Jewish people in Israel is really a lot to ask of the history's 'real' victims in all this particular conflict?
Also I posted this question elsewhere--apparantly you are not allowed to 'counter' post to CJC press releases--

If Israel can target the entire elected Palestinian cabinet can't the Palestinians legitimately target, say, Israel Beitenu, who received more votes than Likud?

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And there have been period of relative quiet, particulary in the first 20 years of the occupation, and yet Israel refused to end the occupation, but rather expanded the colonization process. In addition, Israel has refused to talk with the Palestinian leadership for over five years.

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Originally posted by ohara:
Would you target a restaurant where there are women and children, some men of military age, senior citizens and foreign nationals?

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Israeli mobs do it all the time...

I distinctly recall reading a travel advisory issued by the US State Department that added 'crime' to the list because foreign travellers to Israel are frequent targets, especially North Americans, to the various shakedowns and rip-offs that go unreported and unchallenged largely because of the 'sensitivity' of Israel's image abroad.

Actually, recent research has revealed that the Israeli leadership, particularly people like Dyan, rather quickly resolved not to go back to the pre-June 1967 borders.

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But the Arab countries never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

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[ 21 April 2006: Message edited by: josh ]

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

But the Arab countries never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

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Israel, too. If they wanted peace on the terms you allege--withdrawal from the OT in exchange for recognition and a cold peace--they could have a deal tomorrow.

However, those terms are now unacceptable to Israel, if they ever really were: Israel's need for land and especially water cannot be satisfied within their internationally-recognised borders.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
There's also the small issue of how returning East Jerusalem to the Arabs would inevitably mean renewed desecration of religious sites etc...like the good old days before 1967 when the Jordanian used Jewish headstones and chunks of the Western Wall to pave their roads.

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From 1948-1967, the Arabs went out of their way to bar any Jews from having any access to religious sites in East Jerusalem and on top of that they gratuitously desecrated those sites.

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On the hierarchy of values, Stock, stones' rights occupy some lower plane than human rights.

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Originally posted by Fear-ah:

Israeli mobs do it all the time...

I distinctly recall reading a travel advisory issued by the US State Department that added 'crime' to the list because foreign travellers to Israel are frequent targets, especially North Americans, to the various shakedowns and rip-offs that go unreported and unchallenged largely because of the 'sensitivity' of Israel's image abroad.

It makes it hard for the 'liberal friends of Israel' to keep defending a indefensible country.

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Given the nature of the Jewish settlement blocs left after "hitkansut" ­ their fingers penetrating deep into the West Bank at strategic points ­ Palestinian land will be separated into a series of ghettoes, isolated and cut off one from the next.

In Olmert's consolidation plan, Jerusalem will be turned into a ghetto comprising only those Palestinians prepared to have no contact with or offer no support to the rest of their people, including their own elected representatives.

The West Bank, meanwhile, will be consolidated into a series of small ghettoes, based on the main cities, filled with Palestinians whose rights can be trampled on by Israel at will. And finally Gaza will be consolidated into yet another ghetto, disconnected from Jerusalem and the West Bank.

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15 February 2006

Mujahid al-Samadi, 15
of Qabatia, Jenin District
Mentally challenged and carrying a toy gun, he was shot through the chest during clashes with Israeli troops.

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Good enough for the UN and every human rights group, good enough for me.

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
And it is okay for Palestinian children to die.

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Originally posted by ohara:
Unless you can provide some proof that "Israeli mobs" target Palestinian resteraunts", we will assume its untrue.

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Not really too sure...but you KNOW you can Google just as easily as anyone else...

You can start here with this AP story

He mentions a couple of them...2003 and 2005 and when those bombings occurred, it was AS USUAL pipelined to the western press as 'terrah' and 'unsafe Jews'...

Of course if you are like me, I like to read the Israeli papers myself--it's amazing how issues that would be considered as 'anti-semticism' and 'comfort to our enemies' are discussed rather openly among Israelis and their 'supporters'--you usually get the follow up to this or that bombing.

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19 February 2006

Ibrahim Ahmed Mohammed al-Shiekh 'Eissa, 17
of Balata Refugee Camp, Nablus District
Shot by a live bullet to the neck during a 5 day Israeli incursion in the camp.

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Originally posted by worker_drone:

Why then all the fuss over the US building that helicopter pad on ancient Babylonian ruins?

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You didn't hear it from me, my point isn't that the destruction of artefacts is of no consequence, merely that preventing the possible destruction of artefacts cannot excuse human rights abuses--the two are not comparable values which can be traded off.

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Originally posted by worker_drone:
I didn't see anything in that article about Isreali mobs targetting Palestinian restaurants. It was about the Israeli 'mob', e.g. organized crime. Did you get the two confused Fear-ah?

Every country has organized crime.

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Scroll back that was the Zionist trolls comment--I never said anything about Pally restaurants...I was INFERRING that Israeli mobsters have done specacular bombings that have been 'said' to be Palestinians.

You know just like how the IDF attempted to 'snitch jacket' the UN by releasing video suggesting ambulance stretchers were rockets....rem?

Unless you 'trolled' Israeli newspapers and the back pages of the MSM, you would have MISSED the IDF retraction...but then again since the Israelis shot in cold blood the head of the UN mission in Palestine and have refused patently to ensure a proper investigation of this murder, it makes sense that Israel would try to smear the UN.

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I was INFERRING that Israeli mobsters have done specacular bombings that have been 'said' to be Palestinians.

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Originally posted by ohara:
It appears to me that Fera-Ah's only addition to this thread is to stoke anti-Israel sentiment. No proof only accusations steeped in hate.

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