quote:

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Doesn't Israel defend killing Palestinians, and much worse, in some respects, every day? What is different here?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
I agree. I think terrible things are happening on both sides. On that same subway monitor, I saw another newsflash, just after the one about the suicide bombing, that said that the IDF opened fire on a bunch of Palestinian protesters at a street protest.

...I don't consider the killing of Israeli soldiers by Palestinians fighting against occupation to be murder

.

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Please provide the link to that story so we can read it in context.

So Michelle I need to understand your moral position here. Are you saying that if an Israeli woman is in uniform, unarmed, walking home to her apartment say in Tel Aviv it is legitimate for a Palestinian to murder her?

Let me take it one step further, if Israeli soldiers are in the MacDonald's in Jerusalem eating lunch, in the restaurant there are also others, women, men children eating their Big Macs, is it in your mind permissable to walk into that restaurant with a bomb strapped to your body and take out the soldiers?

[ 18 April 2006: Message edited by: ohara ]

[ 18 April 2006: Message edited by: ohara ]

If a Palestinian fighter is sitting in his apartment block, not engaged in any violent action at the time, is it okay for the IDF to bomb him in his apartment (as well as the civilians who happen to live there too)?

[ 18 April 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Sorry, I can't provide a link to the subway monitor.

If a Palestinian fighter is sitting in his apartment block, not engaged in any violent action at the time, is it okay for the IDF to bomb him in his apartment (as well as the civilians who happen to live there too)?

[ 18 April 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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[ 18 April 2006: Message edited by: ohara ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Haven't looked, sorry. No time.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ohara:
Is that your answer justifying suicide killings?

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quote:

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An 8-year-old girl was killed and 20 people were wounded Monday when Israeli forces shelled the Beit Lahiya refugee camp in northern Gaza, Palestinian security sources said.

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An eight year old victim of Israeli terror. Where is your moral outrage, ohara? Where are the condemnations from US authorities? Why are Canadian dollars still allowed to flow to a terrorist state?

from the CNN story:

quote:

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Israeli military sources said four Qassam rockets were fired Monday into Israel and three of them were fired from Beit Lahiya.

The sources said the Israel Defense Forces fired artillery toward the place where the rockets were launched.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ohara:
I posed a simple question based on your answer to me. "I better take it back"...Is that a threat from the moderator or a participant in this forum?

Based on your response to me I do not see a problem with the question I posed. However if as mod it is your determionation that the question crossed the line "I take it back"..However if you are asking me to take it back as a simple poster who feels indignant well that's a different question. Normally I would ask the mod to referee here..since you are in a conflict of interest and Audrey is no longer available I guess I have no choice but to submit to your demand.

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And what other tactics do the Palestinians have? Israel, of course, doesn't want them to have the traditional weapons of resistance. And protests and ceasfires haven't ended the occupation and expansion of the illegal settlements. Plus, there haven't been any formal negotiations in over five years.

In short, this is a war. Where only one side has the power. In such a situation, it is inevitable that non-conventional tactics will be used by the side without power.

[ 18 April 2006: Message edited by: josh ]

quote:

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While it is no solace for the family of the vicim, I must wonder if the falafel stand in Tel Aviv was used as a base from which acts of violence were perpetrated against Palestinian civilians.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

Ah, so violence is justifiable if it is in response to violence. Is that your argument? So if the suicide bombing was in response to Israeli violence, it is understandable in your mind? You can accept that violence?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
[QB](Jesus Christ doesn't. He would say turn the other cheek). /QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

CNN

An eight year old victim of Israeli terror. Where is your moral outrage, ohara? Where are the condemnations from US authorities? Why are Canadian dollars still allowed to flow to a terrorist state?

How many Palestinian children have died as a result of Israeli terror against Palestinians? Are you justifying wanton murder and the killing of children?

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How many Palestinian children have died because their parents have strapped explosives onto them and turned them into human bombs?

quote:

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scribblet: Maybe, if Hamas et al recognized Israel's right to exist and quit threatening to destroy them, there would be peace.

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You mean, of course, the peace of a Palestinian graveyard. Maybe if the bulldozing of Palestinian homes, the decades-long occupation, the helicopter gunship attacks on civilians, the daily Israeli atrocities, the bantustan-like division of Palestinian "territory" and so on came to an end then such violence might come to an end.

Supplemental: A Hamas leader was recently "interviewed" by David Mansbridge on One On One. He predicted that terrorism would increase if the current non-recognition and funding starvation of the democratically elected Palestinian authority continued. It's interesting that those who call Hamas a terrorist organization can't be bothered to listen to what Hamas spokespersons say about what might increase or decrease terrorism. Maybe all "terrorists" are "liars" as well.

[ 18 April 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

It seems to me that ohara asked Michelle a proper question. I did not take it that she supports suicide bombing by Ohara's question but he had every right to pose it given her response.

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:

Okay, this is not okay. Nowhere did I justify suicide killings, and you'd better bloody well take that back. I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion with you here. I don't think either example is justified. I'm asking you if you're consistent in condemning violence against combatants who are not currently armed on BOTH sides, not saying that suicide bombings are okay.

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Not to take ohara's side, because I fully believe this is a game he plays to make vile implied accusations, then feign innocence when someone calls him on his crap, but I just have to point out that while ohara is a master at implying things that disturb, insult, and provoke reactions ... it seems you have a lot less tolerant for it when he does it to you than when he does it to others (which I can understand as just human nature.)

Seems to me that the last time he implied a similar piece of insulting nonsense and I called him on it, you said he didn't imply anything, and threatened me with another suspension (the first suspension being for a strong response to another ohara "politely worded" vile insinuation.)

quote:

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Originally posted by evernon:
Was not Israel beginning pull outs from occupied lands, the Gaza as an example? I know what you are saying Josh but now with Hamas threatening to kill Jewish people overseas (today's National Post) and defending suicide bombings it seems more hopeless and scary.

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Israel responds with violence to violence, the first step to peace is the recognition by all Arab states that Israel has to right to be there, and not to have to live with the threat of being pushed into the sea etc. etc.

quote:

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scribblet:... not to have to live with the threat of being pushed into the sea etc. etc.

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This little canard gets repeated so many times but no one seems to be able to find a source. It's no more true than the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is true. But maybe if if gets repeated enough times people will believe it, eh?

quote:

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As Golda Meir said: There will only be peace when they (Palestinians) love their children more than they hate Israel.

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quote:

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Originally posted by scribblet:

Yes they were, they did pull back, and it was Arafat who never lived up to the peace accords.

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This is a ridiculous and even a somewhat offensive statement.

'Pulled back', yeah after invading in the first place.

[ 18 April 2006: Message edited by: HalfAnHourLater ]

[ 18 April 2006: Message edited by: HalfAnHourLater ]

quote:

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Originally posted by evernon:
Was not Israel beginning pull outs from occupied lands, the Gaza as an example? I know what you are saying Josh but now with Hamas threatening to kill Jewish people overseas (today's National Post) and defending suicide bombings it seems more hopeless and scary.

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Hamas did no such thing.

quote:

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GAZA: Radicals linked to President Mahmoud Abbas’s fractured Fatah movement threatened yesterday to attack Jews overseas to force Israel to release Palestinian prisoners from its jails.

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And even then one must ask what difference does it make whether it is Israelis or Palestinians threatening to kill members of the other group in foreign lands?

quote:

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Israel has a right to respond to terrorist attacks and to defend itself. Maybe, if Hamas et al recognized Israel's right to exist and quit threatening to destroy them, there would be peace.

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Maybe if Israel recognized the Palestinian right to a state (they never have), and to exist peacefully, and quit activley trying to seize their land and expel them from it, Palestinians wouldn't have any need to defend themselves.

What's this? A vicious circle? Grab your partner, round n' round, forwards first and then walk back. Fire a missile into the crowd, blame them for it when they wear a shroud.

[ 18 April 2006: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

quote:

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Maybe, if Hamas et al recognized Israel's right to exist and quit threatening to destroy them, there would be peace.

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...and maybe not. Arafat's experience was not. Hamas won't be making the same mistake. If they recognise Israel, it will be in the context of a guarranteed and defined peace--a comprehensive settlement, as they keep hinting, not a vague 'maybe' promise.

quote:

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Originally posted by evernon:
I would only suggest that supporting suicide bombers is no way for Hamas to show their committment to peace.

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Yeah, the same is true of the IDF and Mossad.

quote:

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Originally posted by evernon:
I would only suggest that supporting suicide bombers is no way for Hamas to show their committment to peace.

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quote:

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it was very stupid politically for Hamas to lend support to the bombing.

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The Europeans were pushed to the wall by whom? The 300 million, trillion dollar, EU was pushed to wall by a few million Palestinians excercising their franchise as limited and weak as it is?

quote:

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it gives the Israelis exaactly what they want.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Serendipity:
For once ohara, I agree with you. Regardless of whatever else is going on, it was very stupid politically for Hamas to lend support to the bombing.

That said, when are we going to make the decision to stop suicide bombers for real.
You may support the military occupation in priniciple, but there's no denying that it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. 38 years and terrorism has gone up not down. When will there be economic development for Palestine?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
The Europeans were pushed to the wall by whom? The 300 million, trillion dollar, EU was pushed to wall by a few million Palestinians excercising their franchise as limited and weak as it is?

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That's a misquote. They were pushed to the wall at the time when Hamas released an official statement in support of the suicide bombing at the pizzeria.

Yes, FM, that's the kind of thing that will push Europe away, believe it or not.

quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
In what way does it give them all of the West Bank?

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quote:

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Yes, FM, that's the kind of thing that will push Europe away, believe it or not.

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quote:

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Watch what Israel does with it's green light in the coming days.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

Really? Europe has strong principles does it?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

It won't be violent will it?

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Look, you're preaching to the converted. You think I'm not aware that Israel has fucked them over? They're doing it as we speak. You're telling me the international community is heavy-handed, biased, unfair, and concerned only with pleasantries? What a revelation!

It's a game. And Israel is succesful because it knows how to play.
And I agree with you that it's wrong. But it's a game that Hamas will have to learn to play. That's not what I want, so lay off. I'm a member of your choir so you don't have to sing at the top of your lungs. It's just the way things are.

quote:

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Originally posted by No Yards:
As long as Israel doesn't get quoted as saying they support the murder of Palestinian children, then they can continue to murder Palestinian children unchecked.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ohara:
Hamas defends suicide bombingWhat is sad and ironic here is that the falafel stand at the Old bus station in Tel Aviv is frequented by many more Israeli Arabs than anyone else. This is murder for murder's sake. Hamas defends it. It is a terrorist government.

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Israeli missile attack kills 6 in Gaza
I don't know anyone who could live in a concentration camp for three generations and not be pissed off. The fact is that the Israeli infliction of "collateral damage" has killed more people than the suicide bombers.

A pox on both the sides for their wanton disregard of human live.

What really bugs me is the bullshit that the western democracies are in the Middle East to promote democracy and then when the Palestians elect a government it isn't recognized.

quote:

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Originally posted by FabFabian:
The Hamas spokesman on CNN said today, 20 Palestinians have been killed this past week by Israel and no outrage from the international community. The stupid bitch on CNN had nothing in response to the that of course.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ohara:
He always got visibly distressed when he attended meetings on behalf of refugees and was told that their conditions were "concentration camp" like. Joseph use to bridel and say that he would have gladly lived in a Palestinian refugee camp in exchange for the nazi concentration camps he survived. It was the only thing he ever got really angry about.

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Appeal to authority. This is the intellectual equivalent of saying, "Well, kids these days just don't have it tough. Back in my day...." Your use of the Holocaust is both hypocritical and a kind of bullying. It's hypocritical because in the past you have argued against the use of the Holocaust for moral comparison and yet here, you trundle it out as the figure of Absolute Evil. Geese, ganders, sauce and all that. The bullying aspect is that presumably there is no greater authority on suffering than a Holocaust survivor. Who could question poor old "Joseph"?

With that aside, let's look at the question of comparison. It ought to be common sense, but just because something is worse than something else, it doesn't make the second thing good. As an example, Japanese concentration camps in Canada were no doubt far less brutal than NAZI concentration camps but that doesn't mean that they were holiday resorts, either. And where are we morally if we simply decide that if something isn't the worst possible thing imaginable, then it just isn't worth complaining about?

If we aren't comparing the severity of conditions, and compare other aspects of what a "camp" is, then we find a lot of similarities. We have a particular ethnic group nominally under the law of the state, and yet unable to participate in it as full citizens. This ethnic group is kept seperate because it is not considered worthy of full participation in the state. The justification in this case (as in the case of Nazis and Jews) is that the outgroup, inspite of it's relative weakness and political impotence, somehow still poses an existential threat to the dominant ethnic group controlling the state. Members of the ethnic outgroup may be punished - even up to killing them - with impunity. This takes the form not only of extrajudicial killing (murder by another name) but of destruction of property, enforced poverty, starvation, and abuses of the body (beatings, torture, general ill-treatment). All of these techiniques are used as a warden would "rehabilitate" a criminal, or as a parent would punish a child for bad behaviour. Go look up the old Roman term homo sacer and you'll see what I mean.

[ 18 April 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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It's a game. And Israel is succesful because it knows how to play.
And I agree with you that it's wrong. But it's a game that Hamas will have to learn to play. That's not what I want, so lay off. I'm a member of your choir so you don't have to sing at the top of your lungs. It's just the way things are.

---

I don't have a choir, but thanks. My argument would be that it doesn't matter.

Look, the reason Hamas was elected is because doing everything demanded of the so-called international community hasn't worked for Palestinians. Palestinians have done, over the course of the years, everything demanded of them. And while Palestinians are being forced to their knees in front of Israel -- recognizing Israelis have greater rights to security, dignity, land, and water -- they find their land and rights and future continues to be eroded.

When Palestinians were adhering to the agreements, when there was relative quiet, the so-called international community did not nothing to stop the colonization or to demand Israeli recognition of a Palestinian state.

When we speak of the international community and the international press, we are not speaking of honest brokers. We are not speaking of non-partisan bodies seeking a mutually beneficial peace. We are speaking of partisan bodies that want Palestinians to accept a subservient and bowed position before Israeli interests and without any reward save for a respite of violence against them for doing so.

quote:

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Originally posted by ohara:
Well I think its way over the top to refer to the living conditions of Palestinians as a "concentration camp".

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Actually, "concentration camp" is far more apt, according to the word's actual meaning, when describing a palestinian refugee camp than a Nazi death camp.

Yes, let's not learn anything from history ... that's the ticket.

quote:

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Joseph was a good and decent man. Im sorry I even brought him up here for you to denegrate his memory.

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Joesph may well be what you claim, but you are the one who used his memory in an attempt to shut down discussion of evil.

[ 18 April 2006: Message edited by: No Yards ]

quote:

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Originally posted by ohara:
Joseph was a good and decent man. Im sorry I even brought him up here for you to denegrate his memory.

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If I had done that, it would be a slight indeed. But it is your weak-ass argument I've denigrated. This is the second time you've tried to hide behind the memory of poor old Joseph. Talk about denigration. Hasn't he been through enough?

[ 18 April 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

No the Israelis only kill small numbers of Palestinians and so far have not set up any gas chambers as a final solution to their "security" problems.

Again a pox on all governments and organizations that take the lives of innocent civilians and then try to justify those murders on any basis.

quote:

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Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

If I had done that, it would be a slight indeed. But it is your weak-ass argument I've denigrated. This is the second time you've tried to hide behind the memory of poor old Joseph. Talk about denigration. Hasn't he been through enough?

[ 18 April 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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ohara, if you don't want people to challenge your use of your friends in your arguments, then maybe you shouldn't use them on babble to score debating points. B.L., perhaps you could resist the bait for once.

[ 18 April 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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Tell me again why the Jews need a homeland, why we must be on guard against Antisemitism? And none of this past persecution and Holocaust false comparison crap, ok?

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The holocaust was only about 60 years ago, so maybe you should learn a bit about history yourself No Yards.

quote:

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Originally posted by worker_drone:

The holocaust was only about 60 years ago, so maybe you should learn a bit about history yourself No Yards.

60 years down the line, will the massacre in Rwanda be any less of an atrocity?

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No Yards didn't suggest that the Holocaust was not an atrocity. What he was arguing was that suggesting that the Palestinians' condition isn't so bad compared to what some Jews survived (Ohara's argument) negates the Jewish claim that a state is necessary to protect them. Since things aren't so bad for them now, what are they worried about?

It was tongue-in-cheek... Nowhere did No Yards make the explicit or implicit claim that the Holocaust was not an atrocity.

The question is still about the use and abuse of the Holocaust in Zionist politics. Ohara's argument is a perfect example of the use of the Holocaust to mitigate other atrocities by a supporter of Israel. Connecting to your thought, is that really a fair use of Jewish history?

[ 18 April 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

From what I can understand from how Israeli apologists use the events, it is only they who have open rights to evoke the memory of such events in any situation, from actual deaths of thousands, to misguided words of some drunken feeble minded bigot. For them evoking the memory of the Holocaust in any and all situations is fine ... everyone else can only invoke the memory of those events in situation where there is air-tight evidence that someone under 5'6", black hair, and small square moustache, just murdered over 2 million people using gas chambers ... but only if you're not making the comparison to Israel or the USA.

The lesson of Hitler, the Nazi's, the Tutsi is not that they murdered so many people ... it would be a damn stupid person who didn't already understand that murdering millions of people was a bad thing ... I don't think we need to be history majors with detailed knowledge of the results of the Holocaust and the Rwanda genocide to come to that conclusion ... the real lesson of these events is in what lead up to the ultimate results ... how Hitler, the Nazi's, the Tutsi became murders, how they achieved the power to allow them the ability to commit these murders, how people were able to ignore those building events that lead to the ultimate evil ... The lesson of Hitler comes way before he murdered a single person ... the lessons of the Nazi's come way before they ever had a sniff of power ... the lessons of the Tutsi comes way before they axed a single baby.

quote:

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In the last two and a half weeks (since the previous suicide bombing) Israeli forces have killed at least 26 Palestinians -- at least 5 of them children -- and injured 161 Palestinian men, women and children. A college student lost her right eye today after being shot by an Israeli sniper last week ... Defense for Children International reports that 4,000 Palestinian children have been arrested in the past five years, 400 of them currently in prison, including a fifteen-year-old girl, who has been in prison for over a year after being shot in the stomach by Israeli soldiers.

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quote:

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Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

Nowhere did No Yards make the explicit or implicit claim that the Holocaust was not an atrocity.

The question is still about the use and abuse of the Holocaust in Zionist politics. Ohara's argument is a perfect example of the use of the Holocaust to mitigate other atrocities by a supporter of Israel. Connecting to your thought, is that really a fair use of Jewish history?

[ 18 April 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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I'm not convinved that is what Ohara is trying to say, although it's a standard argument made against anybody who is on his side of the debate around here.

I know I don't believe that the holocaust gives the jews or the israeis the right to inflict suffering on the palestinians.

What I was responding to from No Yards was this:

quote:

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Tell me again why the Jews need a homeland, why we must be on guard against Antisemitism? And none of this past persecution and Holocaust false comparison crap, ok?

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quote:

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There is far less risk of persecution and genocide in culturally diverse nations.

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I do not believe this is true at all.

edited to add...maybe in societies that practice healthy cultural diversity. But most societies don't and genocide seems to happen when a dominant group wants to rid itself of 'undesirables'

[ 19 April 2006: Message edited by: worker_drone ]

quote:

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What I was responding to from No Yards was this:

quote: Tell me again why the Jews need a homeland, why we must be on guard against Antisemitism? And none of this past persecution and Holocaust false comparison crap, ok?

I can't think of a better reason that a people should have a homeland than persecution and genocide.

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And I can't think of a better reason not to practise the persecution and ethnic cleansing that Israel is practising against the Palestinians.

[ 19 April 2006: Message edited by: ohara ]

quote:

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Originally posted by worker_drone:

I can't think of a better reason that a people should have a homeland than persecution and genocide.

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I can - when they live and work there in peace, in conformity with (international) law, and without chasing out or persecuting their neighbours. That's a better reason. The fact that both my parents' families were slaughtered from 1941-43 gives no one any right to a "homeland", especially not someone else's.

By the way, who is this "people" of which you speak? Israelis? Jews? Jewish Israelis? Israelis of non-Middle-Eastern origin? Creative genetically modified combinations of the above!?

Under Israel's Law of Return, I have the right to land at Lod Airport and claim instant Israeli citizenship. Or rather, I had. I publicly waived my "right" on babble some months ago. When the displaced inhabitants have received justice, maybe I'll go there as a tourist.

Some Jews, faced with being described as "a people", have gone farther:

Letter of Resignation from the Jewish People (B. Ollman)

quote:

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By the way, who is this "people" of which you speak? Israelis? Jews? Jewish Israelis? Israelis of non-Middle-Eastern origin? Creative genetically modified combinations of the above!?

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In this specific example, the jewish people. If we were talking about Rwanda it would be Tutsis.

quote:

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Under Israel's Law of Return, I have the right to land at Lod Airport and claim instant Israeli citizenship. Or rather, I had. I publicly waived my "right" on babble some months ago. When the displaced inhabitants have received justice, maybe I'll go there as a tourist.

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quote:

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If I called you what you are I would be suspended ... how about it Mods, can we do something about this kind of slimy attack implying posters are white supremacists?

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quote:

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Originally posted by ohara:
I simply cannot understand why you need to invoke the Holocaust when it comes to Israel.

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quote:

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Some Jews, faced with being described as "a people", have gone farther:

Letter of Resignation from the Jewish People (B. Ollman)

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What a letter! He's still one of us though. I can't think of anything more Jewish than penning a statement to opt out of the community.

Reminds me of a joke:

Two Jews are walking and talking, and one has a hunchback. The one without the hunchback tells his friend that he's decided to convert to Christianity.

The hunchbacked man says: "What?"
The other guy: "That's right. I'm no longer Jewish"
Hunchbacked man: "Right. And I no longer have a hunchback."

But to get back on track: I still believe Hamas needs to distance itself from these attacks for the best interests of Palestinians. Regardless of whether the attack was justified or not. They deserve a legitimate voice.

The FLQ may have pushed things along in the Quiet Revolution, but without the Parti Quebecois and their moderating stance, Quebecois would have been absolutely nowhere. It's worth thinking about.

[ 19 April 2006: Message edited by: Serendipity ]

quote:

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Originally posted by worker_drone:
I'm not convinved that is what Ohara is trying to say, although it's a standard argument made against anybody who is on his side of the debate around here.

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If the shoe fits.

quote:

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I know I don't believe that the holocaust gives the jews or the israeis the right to inflict suffering on the palestinians.

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I'm glad you think so. However, by invoking the suffering of his long-lost Holocaust survivor friend, he attempted to portray the treatment of Palestians by Israel as "not so bad". According to Ohara's expert in suffering, Joseph, the Palestinians' condition isn't up to real concentration camp standards. If that isn't using the Holocaust to minimize the effects of Israel's conduct, I don't know what is.

[ 19 April 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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Originally posted by worker_drone:

I can do the same in Ireland. All I have to do is basically show up, fill out some forms, and I'm an Irish citizen.

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I don't suppose you'll get a piece of land formerly belonging to an Arab when you get there will you?

Moreover, in the case of Ireland, this only extends back to your grandparents who must be Irish citizens. You must be able to document your relation. You can't just claim to be Irish somewhere along the line.

Irish citizenship is still based on some kind of provable residence, not some loose ethnic or religious affiliation. There are Palestinians who still hold the deeds to their lands confiscated by Israel. Under Irish law, they would probably be allowed to move back. Still like the comparison?

[ 19 April 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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Originally posted by worker_drone:

I can do the same in Ireland. All I have to do is basically show up, fill out some forms, and I'm an Irish citizen.

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No you can't, not the same way you can become Israeli if you are a Jew.

quote:

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Irish citizenship is still based on some kind of provable residence, not some loose ethnic or religious affiliation. There are Palestinians who still hold the deeds to their lands confiscated by Israel. Under Irish law, they would probably be allowed to move back. Still like the comparison?

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So anybody can just show up in Tel Aviv and claim they're jewish and get citizenship? Why don't the Palestinians all just do that?

There's a huge debate about what being "jewish" means, and I can't settle that here.

quote:

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he attempted to portray the treatment of Palestians by Israel as "not so bad".

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"No so bad" or "Not as bad"?

[ 19 April 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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Originally posted by worker_drone:

"No so bad" or "Not as bad"?

I've never been shot, so I'm guessing here, but I think that while both would really suck, being shot in the leg would be not as bad as being shot in the head.

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It doesn't matter. The point is that Ohara initiated a comparison. A comparison that he/she/it refuses elsewhere when it casts negative aspersions on Israel. Ohara attempted to use the Holocaust to minimize the ill-treatment of Palestinians. Otherwise, he simply could've said, "You know, I don't think I'd call them concentrations camps, because of reasons A,B,C..." or something similar. But instead, Ohara chose to appeal to the authority of his Poor Dead Bundist Holocaust Survivor Friend as though "Joseph's" leftist credentials and expertise in suffering would make the case rather than arguments. It's a form of argumentative seduction.

Now Ohara complains that others mention the Holocaust in relation to Israel and casts aspersions of antisemitism on those doing so.

Of course you arrive just in a nick of time to defend them when they're cornered. We've seen that before....

[ 19 April 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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Originally posted by No Yards:
So what kind of crap are you implying ohara?

If I called you what you are I would be suspended ... how about it Mods, can we do something about this kind of slimy attack implying posters are white supremacists?

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I agree. ohara, you're not the moderator and you don't get to tell people what they're allowed to say here, nor imply that they are acting like white supremacists for saying it. I really don't want to deal with this crap. First you called me an apologist for suicide killings, and now you're claiming that No Yards is posting stuff that is better posted on a white supremacist board.