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Author Topic: ART not Religion – Art not WAR
Q
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posted 20 September 2002 06:51 PM      Profile for Q   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The sculpture “Tumbling Woman” by artist Eric Fischl is fantastic. Seeing the photo of the work intensely moved me reminding of the figures frozen in lava from ancient Pompeii.

There is a message in the Destruction of the Tower --- it's Tarot Card # XVI which depicts the flaming tower and falling people from it.

Fischl's work is raising the ire of so many who seem afraid of symbolism. Yet no doubt this same crowd were glued to the ostentatious INFOtainment show last week that preyed on their emotions for financial and political gain. I tuned the whole thing out disgusted by it.

Also I’ve read too many ridiculous complaints about the sculpture that condemn nudity as obscene. One really has to wonder about the emotional maturity of somebody who’s afraid of the human figure. BTW this is representational, not real, drawn from imagination – not a documentary photograph.

Populations would be better served if ART education replaces religion. Art embraces symbolism for what it is an expression of archetypal myths. There is always room for ritual in the making and presentation of art.

Symbolism is the language of the subconscious and ART is the expression of dreams.

Religions on the other hand brainwashes cultures into hating the other so much so that often these political action groups endorse murder and slavery rather then reveal that they are dealers in superstitious hot air.

Make ART Not WAR


From: Wild in the City | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 20 September 2002 09:02 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is very powerful as it captures mankind's helplessness in the face of violence and hatred. Unfortunately, the narrow, literal-minded phillistines not only cannot appreciate it, but use it as an axe to grind against all of what bothers them about the modern world.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 20 September 2002 09:11 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From what I can see, it is a lovely, sensitive and disturbing work of art. Without becoming voyeuristic porn, art must find ways of describing horror - just think of Guernica, Primo Levi's books, or so many others.

Artists have already referred to Arcana XVI, the Tower, with respect to the desaparecid@s hurled from planes in Argentina and Chile, and of course Isaac Deutcher referred to the paragdim of the person killed by another person leaping from a burning building with respect to Holocaust refugees and the dispossession of Palestine.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 20 September 2002 10:40 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
An image of the sculpture can be found here.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 21 September 2002 12:48 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But...
without war and religion, just what would Art be about?

You can only look at so many pictures of flowers, landscapes, fawns and lovers before you grow bored. Those pictures are never as moving, powerful, etc. as depictions of suffering and violence, devotion and martyrdom. Anyway, nice, positive, life-affirming art doesn't go over well with the critics.

(It's a fine piece, reminescent of Rodin. 13 months ago, nobody would have given it a second thought.)

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: nonesuch ]


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satana
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posted 21 September 2002 11:08 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

Art is a form of religious expression, and war is a kind of art.


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Q
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posted 21 September 2002 11:24 AM      Profile for Q   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How did you respond to Damien Hirst's comments?

Damien Hirst recants

I wish he wasn't forced by PC'ism since the WTC was quite a work of performance art indeed.

Yes of course the event was a disaster for NY what troubles me so much is that the Gun Culture driven by the NRA in the USA is incapable of accepting personal responsibility for WTC implosion.

No that is not a stretch to connect Carlyle weapons dealers, including Bush, Cheney & Rumsfeld to the catastrophe and to the current nuclear terror we face from their shenanigans.


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josh
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posted 21 September 2002 11:54 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Didn't a German artist, whose name escapes me, make similar remarks right after 9/11?
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'lance
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posted 21 September 2002 12:02 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Didn't a German artist, whose name escapes me, make similar remarks right after 9/11?

You're thinking of the composer Karlheinz Stockhausen, I reckon.

He was widely quoted as saying that the WTC destruction was "the greatest work of art." But according to Louis Menand in the New Yorker, Stockhausen said it was the greatest work of art created by the Devil.

Menand says that his remarks were allegedly truncated by a German reporter for purely domestic reasons.


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skdadl
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posted 21 September 2002 12:05 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If I were to judge the attacks of 11 Sept by strictly aesthetic standards, I think I would slot them in only at the same (low) level I put propaganda and Madison Avenue think.

They wanted a spectacle; they wanted on to American TV; they got their wish. For a serious artist, I'd say that's aiming pretty low.

I also thought the sculpture of the tumbling woman looked interesting from the photos, and since she seems to be mid-air, it wasn't her death that it made me think of, more her vulnerability, and those minutes of time suspended.


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Slick Willy
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posted 21 September 2002 12:16 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Yes of course the event was a disaster for NY what troubles me so much is that the Gun Culture driven by the NRA in the USA is
incapable of accepting personal responsibility for WTC implosion.

Salt in the wound is what it looks like.

Is that the same personal responsibility that the War Culture driven by tribes in Afganistan are incapable of accepting for the 500 pounders dropped on them?

Have you accepted your portion of the responsibility for the terrorist attacks yet?


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Q
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posted 21 September 2002 01:15 PM      Profile for Q   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes of course --- personally I am in withdrawal for OIL addiction.

Essentially we have to change our greedy ways.

It's not right that 3 billion + people on earth don't have access to clean water or electricity.

Earth's natural resources can't support 6 billion + driving cars.

Consumption is not our exclusive domain.

I agree With Canada's PM --- we in the West humiliate the poor.

Also it is essential in the plan to get people out of religious mumbo jumbo --- brainwashing constituents selling real estate in never never land is sickening.


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lagatta
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posted 21 September 2002 01:50 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Seeing mass destruction and modern war as an art form isn't particularly original - it was a common theme of Italian futurism around the 1st World War. Italian futurism embraced fascism, unlike Russian futurism, which was generally progressive
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Q
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posted 23 September 2002 09:34 PM      Profile for Q   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There is no such thing as bad publicity for Artists. Thanks to the outrage of a handful this sculpture is on to the front page though and good for Fischl.

What a sad thing that some are so afraid of their imagination’s dark corners that they succumb to hysteria over a work of fiction.

People could live fear free lives if they would explore and confront the images that haunt the sub conscious.

Art experience can induce epiphany the state of transcendental euphoria for those willing to let go and enjoy.

Art’s aim is ecstasy is the perceiver.

Religion is the suppression/ repression of imagination.


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minimalist
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posted 24 September 2002 02:59 AM      Profile for minimalist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
agree
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satana
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posted 24 September 2002 04:58 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How can you say there is nothing worth believing in, and nothing worth fighting for, when you're attacking other people's beliefs and preaching your own?
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satana
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posted 24 September 2002 04:59 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: satana ]


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josh
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posted 24 September 2002 12:18 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
http://www.rabble.ca/columnists_full.shtml?x=15601
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Q
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posted 24 September 2002 12:50 PM      Profile for Q   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What an odd thing to say about not believing ---

Does having imaginary friends equal something?

Life is what one makes of it as we each write, produce and act out our personal scripts.

Religions are businesses selling real estate in never never land. Sadly each one sets itself up against the others perpetuating hatred.

Religion is the practice of myth, magic and superstition and as such belongs in dusty museum vaults with other artifacts cataloguing evolution.


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dale cooper
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posted 24 September 2002 02:10 PM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Religions are businesses selling real estate in never never land. Sadly each one sets itself up against the others perpetuating hatred.


Q, I think you're misreading religion here. No religion sets itself up against any other. If you look at the foundation of ANY religion (save religious re-interpretations) they are all about love and repsect and all that good stuff. It's the followers and leaders that corrupt them. That has nothing to do with religion. That's people. We do the same thing with government and education and any other institution. Give us something to strengthen ourselves with and we'll twist it into a power trip used to justify horrible ends. Install art (Art?) as an institution and see what happens.


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Q
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posted 24 September 2002 05:48 PM      Profile for Q   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Do you honestly think that slavery or any other act of brutality continues unless it is sanctioned by the tribe's religion?

Religions are businesses and as political action committees are getting in the way of sustaining healthy communities.


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dale cooper
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posted 24 September 2002 05:57 PM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's fine to be opposed to the institution of religion. It is, as a general rule, quite nasty and hurts a lot of people. The idea of religion is quite different however. People who are intelligent enough to overcome going through the motions of religious fervor and can act out the principles of their religion based on it's actual tenants tend to be quite pleasant, stable people. But this is the same with anything.

I remember taking art classes in school where the teacher had ABSOLUTE set rules about how art was to be made and what it was. If art ever became an institution, this is exactly what would happen. The people in power would set down guidelines and rules and people would get turned off of it and refuse to see it for what it truly is.


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Q
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posted 24 September 2002 06:04 PM      Profile for Q   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
dale cooper --- you must have had the same high school art teacher as my son. The twit knew nothing about art and bragged that he had never been in an art gallery.

Too many teachers in public education are there because of seniority not competence in a field.

There is no rule of art --- everyone is free to make whatever they wish --- let the view/audience decide it's validity --- that's the fun of it.


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dale cooper
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posted 24 September 2002 06:17 PM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That I can agree with. Now let me ask, how do you feel about religious art?
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Q
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posted 27 September 2002 02:41 PM      Profile for Q   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Honestly it is my conviction that religion should like sex be practiced by consenting adults in the privacy of their bedrooms.

For too long have the emotionally immature imposed through violence their private hallucinations and imaginary friends.

Charlottetown — Children as young as two years old should be given blows with a rod if they repeatedly misbehave, a member of a rural PEI commune testified Thursday.


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satana
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posted 28 September 2002 10:45 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You don't need God to beat people up.
Loving your neighbour doesn't make you a murderer.

So, what are you trying to say Q?


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged

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