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Topic: Fear and Loathing
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lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534
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posted 20 December 2002 10:20 AM
Excellent article, Judy! And very precise in its statement: "Jews in North America do not (or no longer) face discrimination". Since sadly there have been recent examples of cruel discrimination elsewhere in the world, not only the unsolved AMIA bombing in Buenos Aires (in which military and police involvement are strongly suspected) or the grotesque persistance of the most vulgar anti-Semitism in Poland, where few Jews remain. The late father of a friend of mine was a doctor and a lifelong fighter for social justice. When he returned from his RCAF service in the Second World War, he was refused a place in the McGill Med School due to anti-Semitism. He returned with his war medals and shamed them into letting him in. It is essential to stand up to anti-semitism and all forms of racism, while not allowing Izzie Asper or Ariel Sharon to insinuate that all critics of Israeli policy harbour a secret hatred of Jews. [ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: lagatta ]
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002
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Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192
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posted 20 December 2002 10:27 AM
quote: Sorting out the real rise in anti-Semitism from the false charges is not easy. As a Jew who opposes the cruel occupation of the Palestinian territories by Israel, I do not believe for a minute that the opposition of much of the left to Israel is based in anti-Semitism. But I do understand why many Jews perceive it that way. The story of the Holocaust that every Jew knows so well is that the German Jews were the most integrated in their society. They felt safe when the Nazis began to gain support. These brown-shirt thugs were at first almost laughable. We’ve learned that lesson — any sign of anti-Semitism has to be stopped before it spreads. On this I agree. The problem is that the Israeli leadership has skilfully woven the myth that opposing their policies is opposing the Jewish people, that criticism of Israel is, in and of itself, anti-Semitic. It is my view that Israel’s actions in the West Bank and the Gaza strip are a betrayal of the history of the Jewish people. I speak out against them because I cannot accept that my people, who have been so persecuted over centuries can persecute another people.... Discussion of the rise of anti-Semitism today without talking about the even more serious rise of racism, particularly against Muslims and Arabs after September 11 and the deepening of impact of systemic racism in the Black community, feeds into the unwillingness of the left to take anti-Semitism seriously.
This is the first article I have read that expressed my own feelings and worries perfectly. Thank you.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002
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Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785
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posted 20 December 2002 10:42 AM
This is an interesting piece, especially because you can see the precise point in the essay where, Judy, having stated her bona fides, mounts her hobby horse and gallops away. It happens right here...."The problem is that the Israeli leadership has skilfully woven the myth that opposing their policies is opposing the Jewish people, that criticism of Israel is, in and of itself, anti-Semitic. It is my view that Israel’s actions in the West Bank and the Gaza strip are a betrayal of the history of the Jewish people. I speak out against them because I cannot accept that my people, who have been so persecuted over centuries can persecute another people." And so saying, Judy lumps all criticism of Israel into the same basket. Most Jewish organizations and many of the Jews on the left that I know have never claimed that all criticism of Israel is antisemitism, but have maintained that there is a significant and growing overlap. Judy manages a neat trick by simultaneously absolving all criticism and blaming "Israeli leadership" for planting the notion of criticism=antisemitism in the first place. She goes further, of course, offering this choice morsel.... "One impact of the rise of anti-Semitism in the society is for Jewish communities to close ranks against any and all opposition. This is the worst response we could possibly have. Tribalism feeds bigotry." Now it is the responsibility of the Jews to maintain an open and flexible attitude, even in the face of antisemitism. If we fail to do so, our "tribalism" will feed bigotry. Talk about blaming the victim! "Jews who oppose Israel’s persecution of the Palestinian people must speak out, as must Muslims and Arabs who oppose suicide bombers. It is not easy in either case," It is also not equivalent. "...but if we are going to find a way to work together across difference, those of us on the left have to break with those in our own communities who are promoting violence and hatred." It's a good ending, but I'm not sure if it has any significance given the code messages above. I think Judy means well but I think she is incapable of going the distance. I suppose that's fair.....we all have our limitations. Edited to add: Interestingly, our favourite star columnist Rosie di Manno had (as expected) an entirely different take on antisemitism in today's Star. DiManno
[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Mishei ]
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002
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sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119
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posted 20 December 2002 10:50 AM
quote: Jews in North America do not face discrimination. They are well represented in the corridors of power whether political, economic or social. This is why it is hard for people on the left who generally identify with those without power in the society to identify with the struggle against anti-Semitism. It is an abstraction.
If the basis of the argument is that Jews do not face discrimination because they are well represented politically, economically, or socially, then I would say that's a valid point. But I don't see how I could agree to this and not also agree to the same when it comes to the asian population in Canada. Drive around Richmond BC, or Markham and you don't see much of any type of ghettoized poverty. They are well represented politically (BC even elected an Indo-Canadian premier), socially and economically. But I still see anti-asian sentiment, and I still see anti-semitism. Not to the degree that natives, or blacks face, but it's still there.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002
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lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534
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posted 20 December 2002 11:02 AM
Horrors, a double post!But this is in response to sheep. There are lots of poor Asians. Sweatshops thrive in most major Canadian cities on the underpaid, often black-market labour of East Asian women toiling over sewing machines - in my neighbourhood there are several such workshops. This is also true in the restaurant industry, tending to employ many Asian men. It must also be recalled that while classical anti-Semitism made much about Jewish plutocrats such as the Rotschilds, and even prosperous, well-integrated families like Anne Frank's died despite a survival strategem only the well-off could afford, that classical anti-semitism simultaneously targeted "Jewish Bolshevism" and aimed to crush the "Revolutionary Yiddishland" which had been such a powerful force not only in Eastern Europe, but in Western Europe too, and across the sea in New York City, Winnipeg, Buenos Aires... The vast majority of the Jews murdered by the Nazis were poor people of Polish shtetls, or their relatives who had achieved a better, but still largely proletarian life in European cities.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002
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josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938
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posted 20 December 2002 11:03 AM
Two wrongs do not have to be equivalent to be condemned. Innocent lives are lost on both sides. Throw in the occupation and the illegal settlements, and you have enough "wrong" to go around.And I don't think Judy lumped all criticism of Isreal into one basket. She was pointing, correctly in my view, to a tactic used by the right-wing to stifle any criticism of Israel. [ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: josh ]
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002
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sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119
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posted 20 December 2002 11:13 AM
quote: There are lots of poor Asians. Sweatshops thrive in most major Canadian cities on the underpaid, often black-market labour of East Asian women toiling over sewing machines - in my neighbourhood there are several such workshops. This is also true in the restaurant industry, tending to employ many Asian men.
There are lots of poor white people scratching out a living too. I couldn't say how many comparatively, but there is certainly a face of white poverty. I see russian jews toiling in bakeries, and cleaning houses here too. I think you see the asian sweatshops, and asian farmworkers because of high immigration from less affluent countries. You'd see more of it in the Jewish community if most of that class hadn't been lost in the holocaust, and if the jewish people themselves hadn't been wandering for centuries.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002
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Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192
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posted 20 December 2002 11:19 AM
quote:
And so saying, Judy lumps all criticism of Israel into the same basket. Most Jewish organizations and many of the Jews on the left that I know have never claimed that all criticism of Israel is antisemitism, but have maintained that there is a significant and growing overlap.
All right, then, Mishei, find me an article criticising Israel that you don't think is "beyond the pale" and I'll believe you. Until then, I'm with Judy. Most of the articles you've posted are extremely vague on what is and is not acceptable criticism of Israel, or say that it's unacceptable to criticise Israel if anti-Jewish activity is taking place, or that criticism is okay only if it isn't done too often, or other weasel arguments that basically amount to "criticism is okay when I feel like it's okay, which will probably be never, but I can't say that because that's unreasonable, so I'll just put a vague smear across the entire left and yell 'anti-Semitism' whenever anyone says something I don't want to hear." quote:
Judy manages a neat trick by simultaneously absolving all criticism and blaming "Israeli leadership" for planting the notion of criticism=antisemitism in the first place.
It's pretty hard to mount a truly anti-Semitic criticism of Israel without being blatantly anti-Semitic. If you hate Israel because it's Jewish, it's pretty hard to say that without also saying you dislike Jews. Edited to add: I don't hate Israel, by the way, and I don't think the majority of us here on Babble hate it either - just some of its actions. If it weren't for the settlements/occupation I really wouldn't have a problem with it. quote:
"One impact of the rise of anti-Semitism in the society is for Jewish communities to close ranks against any and all opposition. This is the worst response we could possibly have. Tribalism feeds bigotry."Now it is the responsibility of the Jews to maintain an open and flexible attitude, even in the face of antisemitism. If we fail to do so, our "tribalism" will feed bigotry. Talk about blaming the victim!
No, she is not blaming the victim. She is saying that when you have enemies, it does not help you to turn against your friends too. This is simply a statement of fact. quote:
"Jews who oppose Israel’s persecution of the Palestinian people must speak out, as must Muslims and Arabs who oppose suicide bombers. It is not easy in either case,"It is also not equivalent.
Why not? I'm really tired of hearing the "killing civilians as collateral damage is different from targeting civilians themselves" argument, as I don't think the victims on one side are any less dead than those on the other. Why is it too much to ask that everyone voice their rejection of oppression and murder? [ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002
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Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214
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posted 20 December 2002 11:26 AM
quote: Jews in North America do not face discrimination. They are well represented in the corridors of power whether political, economic or social.
In what passes for public discourse on this subject at the moment, I'd say we only have to wait three more hours before Clayton Ruby or Bob Rae or Izzy Asper twists this to say that "the left now believes Jews control everything". For my taste (which admittedly isn't everyones, thankfully) I think Judy was too soft on Clayton Ruby's eggregious slander of the left in his Globe article. I am left to speculate that this might be something addressed in private, which is probably a better idea. There's enough urine on the floor from these pissing contests already. By sticking to the very salient points and showing restraint where it would be beyond my grasp, Judy Rebick shows a wisdom and maturity that escapes me on this subject. yer a better person than I, Judy Rebick. [ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ] [ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]
From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001
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Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785
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posted 20 December 2002 11:31 AM
quote: so I'll just put a vague smear across the entire left and yell 'anti-Semitism' whenever anyone says something I don't want to hear."
Smith, once again you resort to making claims that are not true. I urge you to find a post in which I call someone here an antisemite. And lets not re-tread the links of articles I posted from progressives who defined what they believ antisemitism may be.You claim that I have called people antisemitic. Either prove it or drop it. BTW, while I heartily disagreed with Judy's analysis on her trip I never once inisinuated that her critiszms of Israeli policy in the WB were antisemitic or beyond the pale. Smith, what you have to learn is that just because I passionately disagree with some of the posts on Israel does not automatically mean I believe the individual posting them is antisemitic.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002
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Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192
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posted 20 December 2002 11:36 AM
quote: Smith, once again you resort to making claims that are not true. I urge you to find a post in which I call someone here an antisemite.
And once again you resort to telling me I said something I did not. You have not called anyone an anti-Semite, but you have made many, many statements about such-and-such a statement having "crossed the line" or being "beyond the pale" or "blaming the victim" or whatever, or by suggesting that if we're offended by being told that "many on the left" are anti-Semitic, perhaps that means we need to "look inside ourselves," and repeatedly congratulating Ruby, et al. on their analysis, knowing full well that many of us found it slanderous and so vague as to be both useless and deeply hurtful. To yell "anti-Semitism" does not mean to call someone an anti-Semite; it means to claim that anti-Semitism is at work in critiques, and that you have done aplenty. quote:
And lets not re-tread the links of articles I posted from progressives who defined what they believ antisemitism may be.
I believe it's relevant, but I have no intention of going through it at length. quote:
You claim that I have called people antisemitic.
No, I don't. quote:
BTW, while I heartily disagreed with Judy's analysis on her trip I never once inisinuated that her critiszms of Israeli policy in the WB were antisemitic or beyond the pale.
Did I say you had? quote:
Smith, what you have to learn is that just because I passionately disagree with some of the posts on Israel does not automatically mean I believe the individual posting them is antisemitic.
Never said that either. [ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002
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sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119
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posted 20 December 2002 11:46 AM
quote: The left doesn't take anti-semitism seriously and part of the reason for that is all the false charges of anti-semitism against critics of Israel.
I think that this is a good point and it's worth noting. False alarms of any kind hinder you're ability to identify the true problems. But that argument also works against what else passes for racism in Canadian society today, against certain ethnic groups, who are more well integrated into society, and against all the other "isms" out there. Sexual harrasment for example. A charge of racism is the leading method of supressing discussions on race or culture. But academic arguments against racism or anti-semitism are not going to change what people see with their own eyes or experience for themselves. At what point does integration of a certain group elevate them to the status of nondiscrimination? I know that racist attitudes towards Asian exist mainly because I see and hear it ("I don't want to live next door to any Chinese people" is something I hear, for example) and I see it and hear it against Jews too. Interestingly enough, more in the more cultured centres of society (Europe, Montreal, Toronto) than in the "redneck" west or American south (which is where I see more racism directed towards Asians).
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002
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Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192
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posted 20 December 2002 11:51 AM
Fair enough. One must not allow oneself to get distracted, eh? So I repeat my challenge to Mishei, the only thing I consider worth repeating: Find an article criticising Israel that you don't think is anti-Semitic, and then perhaps I'll believe you. As of right now, I'm entirely with Judy. [ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002
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Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785
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posted 20 December 2002 12:10 PM
quote: So I repeat my challenge to Mishei, the only thing I consider worth repeating: Find an article criticising Israel that you don't think is anti-Semitic, and then perhaps I'll believe you. As of right now, I'm entirely with Judy.
Smith you just dont want to listen do you? You are so quick to dump on me you dont even give ame a chance to respond as I did.You asked "...Find an article criticising Israel that you don't think is anti-Semitic", I pointed to Judy's piece and you totally ignored me claiming something or another. So to repeat you wanted an article that critisizes Israel that I don't think is antisemitic...Judy Rebick's piece on her trip to the WB is one such article. I don't like what she says and disagree with the analysis but that's fair game no? Now what do you have to say? Want me to find another article......please
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002
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Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785
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posted 20 December 2002 12:20 PM
Apologies for the double post but I can't let this go for much longer.Tommy states the following: quote: For my taste (which admittedly isn't everyones, thankfully) I think Judy was too soft on Clayton Ruby's eggregious slander of the left in his Globe article. I am left to speculate that this might be something addressed in private, which is probably a better idea.
Im not sure what personal problem Tommy has with Ruby but we should ALL remember that Clay was but one of the signatories of the seminal piece in the Globe. The two other authors were Jeff Rose and Dr. Phil Berger.No matter what your thoughts are on the piece Tommy, it was written collectively. Any personal issue yuou have with Ruby should be kept out of Babble.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002
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