Author
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Topic: Requiem for the Revolution
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CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117
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posted 27 March 2008 09:50 AM
My dad will turn seventy this year. He grew up in Scotland, and was raised in a socalist tradition that valued the labor movement, secularism, atheism and the welfare state. He was taught about class struggle, and knew where he stood politically from a young age. In his day, the left, in many nations around the world went through a kind of golden age, and there seemed to be the collective will to fight for a better tommorow. That dosen't happen anymore. Today, buying organic fruit and driving hybrid cars are political statements. Socalism(be it revolutionary or democratic) has vanished from left wing discourse, and a lot of people don't know who there political leaders are. The revolutionary struggle(at least in North America) is failing, and the left wing political culture that my dad was marinated in is disappearing. My mom and dad are keeping the flame burning, but when they and there aging comrades die, the gen X and Gen Y activists who will inherit the struggle won't know what to do. It's so fucking sad.
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003
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Banjo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7007
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posted 27 March 2008 04:45 PM
I'm two years younger than your dad, and was raised on the Regina Manifesto, the CCF, and the absolute certainy that we would soon be achieving their version of socialism. I remember watching the movie, 2001 and thinking that it was ridiculous to show an add for Coca Coloa, because obviously capitalism would be abolished by then. The "revolution" is coming. It's just going to take longer than expected. When the Soviet Empire fell, it reminded me of the fall of Napolean. The Soviets had corrupted socialism the same way that Emperor Napeleon had corrupted the liberalism that was attemping to be formed in the French revolution. His fall ushered in an era of monarchist reaction, but that era did not last. I was replaced by the eventual arrival of the 'liberalism' which we are now struggling to get out of. Already we see the cracks in the system in Latin America, and the obvious overextension in the US throughout the world. Now, me and your dad, have to live long enough to see its fall.
From: progress not perfection in Toronto | Registered: Oct 2004
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KenS
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1174
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posted 27 March 2008 05:35 PM
I'm fifteen years younger than the two of you. Count on all of us dying first."Meh. The tide comes in, the tide goes out." Yes, but the revolutionary struggle is failing. At least that kind of revolution [not that I know what the replacement, if any, might look like]. There's sadness in it, but I'm not sure there is cause for mourning. Some work at the drawing board maybe.
From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001
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remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289
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posted 27 March 2008 06:37 PM
quote: Originally posted by Cueball: Well, I think you and I have a different take on the function of electoral politics.
Oh, in what way? quote: I fundamentally believe they became irrelevant in 1984, roughly. And the disintegration of the left has been a result of that.
Perhaps, I was thinking more along the lines of 1992-3, when the disintegration actually started, at least here in BC. quote: Lets not forget the fact that Harper is not particularly popular, it is only the fact that the left has lost its compass and and is hugely devided that allows Harper to preside over the largely irrelevant parliment.
Hmmm, seems like you are arguing from 2 positions, one side saying that it matters not who runs the country, and second side saying that it does matter and that the left are at fault for Harper being in Ottawa by being divided, thereby suggesting it does matter who is governing Canada. It can't be both, eh?
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 27 March 2008 06:44 PM
Not at all. There was a sea change it what was possible in electoral politics when the free-trade agreement was put into place. This has set the agenda for everything that came after. Face it, NDP/Left politics is fundamentally based in intervening in the economy, the free trade agreement put the levers that control the economy outside of the reach of parliment.Naturally, a party based on the traditional left analysis is going to lose headway in a political environement where the sea has basicly dried up. On the other hand the forces that Harper represents are "social conservative" forces, they believe fundamentally that the economy should be out of the reach of government, and that the sole purpose of government is managing the morals of society. The conservatives therefore have a mission, which can be achieved through parlimentary politics, while the NDP does not. So political cohesion is much easier for the conservatives to maintain, since the overall rules guiding parlimentary politics today, is complimentary to their designs, while this is not so for the left. [ 27 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117
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posted 28 March 2008 04:47 PM
The opening post was more about the state of poltics in the Elk Valley then anything else.In Fernie, we have a group of activists who call themselves Advocates For Local Living. They run a film series every year called Think Tank Cinema where they show films meant to inspire local people to take action in their communities. They've shown films about peak oil(half the films I've viewed at think tank seem to feature Richard Heinburg) permaculture, fair trade, the evils of the ski industry etc. All this is quite laudible, except for the fact that it's not really about what people can do to take action in their community, it's about what middle class whites can do to take action in their community. The films don't focus on class or race. They don't ask questions like, "if your a working class Mexican immigrant, what opportunity do you have to escape from suburbia?" Or, If your a trucker, white or not, how can you cut down on your oil use?" I don't think there has been anything on the bolovarian revolution either, although there was a film on farming in Cuba. [ 30 March 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003
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nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402
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posted 29 March 2008 09:22 PM
Old joke: In church, the preacher is going on and on about death; says: "Everybody in this parish will surely die". One little guy in the back row in laughing his head off. Preacher asks, "What's to funny back there?" Little guy says, "I'm from another parish."My old man and i are over 60. We look around at the wreckage of the socialist hopes of our youth, and that's the only consolation: we're not from this parish. Hell, we don't even recognize this parish anymore! We're on the way out: might not live to see the worst. We were incredibly lucky: lived most of our adult lives in a historical bubble - when progress was not only possible but inevitable; when human nature seemed to evolve; reason was bound to rule; enlightenment was bound to reach every last soul on Earth; justice was bound to prevail.... We were Greeks in the golden age of Athens: destined for disillusionment and exile. We were optimistic, unrealistic, conceited and foolish. The Revolution to end all revolutions is just as silly as the war to end all wars. There will be lots more of both. The bad guys will win most of the battles, as they always have, because - face it! - people are more stupid/greedy/mean than smart/generaous/kind. Good night, CMOT
From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001
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TemporalHominid
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6535
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posted 30 March 2008 08:23 AM
quote: Originally posted by remind:
Did for me, and for ALL women across Canada. .
A salient point.I think this statement illustrates how we can become complacent when our personal comfort and values are not challenged by the current power structure, and forget that our comfort comes at the expense of someone else, and at the expense of whole marginalised groups. Life is very nice for white middle upper class Christian males, and not too shabby for me either. [ 30 March 2008: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ]
From: Under a bridge, in Foot Muck | Registered: Jul 2004
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Liang Jiajie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14463
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posted 27 April 2008 09:03 PM
quote: Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler: My dad will turn seventy this year. He grew up in Scotland, and was raised in a socalist tradition that valued the labor movement, secularism, atheism and the welfare state. He was taught about class struggle, and knew where he stood politically from a young age. In his day, the left, in many nations around the world went through a kind of golden age, and there seemed to be the collective will to fight for a better tommorow. That dosen't happen anymore. Today, buying organic fruit and driving hybrid cars are political statements. Socalism(be it revolutionary or democratic) has vanished from left wing discourse, and a lot of people don't know who there political leaders are. The revolutionary struggle(at least in North America) is failing, and the left wing political culture that my dad was marinated in is disappearing. My mom and dad are keeping the flame burning, but when they and there aging comrades die, the gen X and Gen Y activists who will inherit the struggle won't know what to do. It's so fucking sad.
Whatever change the younger generations want to pursue, I hope they'll be tolerant towards their opponents, moderate in their actions, and compassionate towards those who are uncertain about the future the change could bring. I'm not so sure the past was a "golden age." [ 27 April 2008: Message edited by: Liang Jiajie ]
From: Nanjing, Jiangsu | Registered: Aug 2007
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al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807
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posted 28 April 2008 08:16 PM
La lutte continue.My job gives me the opportunity to expose our nation's youth to lefty concepts. In my Lit. class I have the students read "Heart of Darkness" for some analysis of imperialism (where I have compared the utterances of Dick Cheney to those of Joe Conrad) and Dickens' "Hard Times" for an indictment of bourgeois capitalism. When I talk about language use with trades students I've recently taken to asking them what "working class" means to them, and then give them a brief history of the term. Hey, we do what we can. It beats shooting people.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003
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Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594
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posted 30 April 2008 02:33 AM
quote: Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Hey, we do what we can. It beats shooting people.
You're a good guy doing a good job, al-Qa'bong. I'm guessing you play guitar. And I'm pretty sure there have been a lot more people put to death by kings and queens and fascists alike in preventing revolutions from happening than have ever had their lives taken by revolutionaries. It's still happening today around the world with leftist rebels now being labelled "terrorists" in various countries where human rights take a backseat to repressive and sometimes brutal U.S.-backed dictatorships. Imperialists and plutocrats didn't try pacifying the masses with full voting rights, albeit with vote-distorting FPTP elections, until sometime early last century here in the far west. Democracy has always been the right's most hated institution, but a half-hearted attempt to allow it sure beats the alternative from their perspective.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004
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CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117
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posted 30 April 2008 04:14 PM
quote: Socialism is alive and vigorous in Canada.
No, it isn't. If it was there would be a major effort to repair our health care system, and the leader of the New Democratic party would be insisting that we abolish NAFTA. If this were a socialist country, we wouldn't have as many homeless people, our rate of taxation would be higher, we wouldn't need food banks, single mothers wouldn't be struggling to get by, we wouldn't be helping the Americans in Afghanistan, and Canadian leftists wouldn't be so disorganized. [ 30 April 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ] [ 01 May 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003
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Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594
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posted 30 April 2008 05:40 PM
quote: Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
No, it isn't.
Socialism in Canada may not be well with our two old line parties chipping away at it slowly but surely under the public's radar. It's why neither of the two big money old line parties were able to garner 24 percent of the eligible vote in the last election, and is why the NDP surged ahead and are now the real and effective opposition party in Ottawa. But we do still have a good deal of socialism present and accounted for in Canada. Canadians are always free to visit any of the U.S. right-to-work, have-not "red" states" and make note of the diffs. [ 30 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004
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CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117
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posted 01 May 2008 09:18 AM
quote: Canadians are always free to visit any of the U.S. right-to-work, have-not "red" states" and make note of the diffs.
Fidel, you sound like a right-wing Israeli politician, pointing out how awful the Arab world is when someone criticizes Israel. We have socialists in this country, but they haven't achieved as much as their comrades have in Brazil Venezuela or Bolivia, at least not recently. Even compared to other industrialized nations, we aren' t terribly socialistic. If you look at the kind of support networks set up in places like France and Sweden, and then compare them to ours, we look pathetic. We aren't as pathetic as the US is, but we still don't look all that wonderful. Truly radical governments and parties only form when the population within a state has nothing left to lose. We had that situation in the 30s, and the CCF formed. Now we are rich, complacent and have Jack Layton, who while a decent politician, doesn't really represent the oppressed. [ 01 May 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003
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Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594
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posted 01 May 2008 10:21 AM
quote: Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
Fidel, you sound like a right-wing Israeli politician, pointing out how awful the Arab world is when someone criticizes Israel. We have socialists in this country, but they haven't achieved as much as their comrades have in Brazil Venezuela or Bolivia, at least not recently.
But those countries still have millions of poor people compared with Canada. I think it's difficult to compare Canada with those countries. Canada has not had a genuine history of being ruled by brutal U.S.-backed dictatorships with U.S.-backed right-wing death squads and paramilitaries necessary for keeping terrorists socialist revolutionaries in-line as well as the peasantry. Canada has not experienced the same Latin American holocaust over the course of the last century and prior to that. Besides, if they can keep Canadian population to a minimum, we won't need right-wing death squad government to keep us in-line and off their private property. They do a swell job of dragging their feet on native land claims and stealing windfall mineral finds from small entrepreneurial prospectors. Canada has enough natural resource wealth and well educated people to become the right-wing NeoLiberal economic experiment which failed in 1985 Chile. Someone must have figured out that if they can show their bad ideology won't fail altogether in a country with a unparalleled natural advantage, they might be able to point to El Canador as an example for every other country to follow. Canada has unparalleled-in-the-world natural resource wealth. It's a good country to have big banks and rich people handling all our thirdworld levels of national debt. It's a good country to live for a highconcentration of superrich people, a country with a higher capita pop'n of billionaires than either Russia or the U.S.A. And it's a good country to create a large low wage workforce, second only to the USA in a comparison of richest countries. But we don't need death squad governments or paramilitaries to opress millions of people while gringo mining and fruit companies take our stuff and pay us banana republic wages. Our stooges have been just smart enough to spread the wealth around a little with a few social programs and socialized medicine, enough to keep them propped up in power today with somewhere just under 24 percent of the eligible vote.
quote: Even compared to other industrialized nations, we aren' t terribly socialistic. If you look at the kind of support networks set up in places like France and Sweden, and then compare them to ours, we look pathetic.
That's true. Canada is middle of the pack when it comes to tax and spend policies. And our's isn't considered a top ten most competitive economy. And our natural resource-based multinationals would cry foul if we taxed them anymore for what belongs to all Canadians. Our two old line parties think "Kyoto" and global warming means they should sell Canada's environment to Exxon-Imperial and other foreign-owned and controlled MNC's. Our Northern banana republic has returned to being a hewer and drawer economy as of 2005. If our old line party stoogeocrats are at all competent in their colonial administrative roles, our banana republic levels of debt should be paid down about the same time the last of our GHG-producing fossil fuels are siphoned off to corporate America for a song. [ 01 May 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004
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