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Author Topic: To be (Jewish) or not to be
Sharon
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posted 05 December 2005 11:19 AM      Profile for Sharon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If a co-worker asks more than once, "Are you Jewish?" are you right to feel bothered, maybe even threatened, by this? What should your reaction be? What would auntie say?

auntie's back


From: Halifax, Nova Scotia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 05 December 2005 02:43 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Incidentally, I find that anyone asking me if I'm religious tends to make me feel like an uncommonly personal question is being asked, partly because it usually is a prelude to a Christian either looking at me funny or trying to proselytize me.

That having been said I can see how it would feel a bit threatening for a person who is ostensibly religious to be nagging other co-workers about it, particularly as religion often gives the imprimatur of legitimacy to questions and actions that would never be tolerated in a secular context.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 05 December 2005 02:49 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think auntie's point was that "being Jewish" is not simply a matter of religion, but of culture, and also of bearing the weight of often being a persecuted minority in past times. However on this site, some babblers, including josh, have preferred to define "being Jewish" (I deliberately use auntie's term, and not Judaism, the term for the religion itself) in religious and not cultural terms. (In French we would say "Judaité" in auntie's sense).

But I'd be creeped out too if someone asked me the question more than once.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuri
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posted 05 December 2005 02:53 PM      Profile for kuri   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would be, too, although the context is unclear in these situations. There's a really fine line between innocent curiosity and the curiosity of an agenda (such as what Dr. Conway refers to). I'm not sure if I were writing the letter to auntie that I'd be able to describe that context very well, either. On the face of it, the questions sound innocent enough, but the letter-writer could be getting a certain "vibe" about the person, gleamed from a number of small things too detailed to put into a letter that make these questions about Jewishness seem suspect from that person.

Hard to call, really.


From: an employer more progressive than rabble.ca | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
brebis noire
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posted 05 December 2005 02:53 PM      Profile for brebis noire     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
But I'd be creeped out too if someone asked me the question more than once.

I would, too.

I know that people can be forgetful about things such as the exact country or province or city you are originally from, but in this case the answer is yes or no, and it's weird that the person would be 'very curious' and subsequently 'not remember.'


From: Quebec | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
the grey
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posted 05 December 2005 03:05 PM      Profile for the grey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by brebis noire:

I would, too.

I know that people can be forgetful about things such as the exact country or province or city you are originally from, but in this case the answer is yes or no, and it's weird that the person would be 'very curious' and subsequently 'not remember.'


But it also seems that the question wasn't answered "yes" or "no" the first time.


From: London, Ontario | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ichy Smith
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posted 05 December 2005 03:08 PM      Profile for Ichy Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by brebis noire:

I would, too.

I know that people can be forgetful about things such as the exact country or province or city you are originally from, but in this case the answer is yes or no, and it's weird that the person would be 'very curious' and subsequently 'not remember.'


My last name in the real world is the same as a Jewish family of some importance in Toronto. When I was young, we sat beside the other families in the Anglican Church, I had 7 years of perfect attendance, but we were always the "Jewish" family. Most people didn't seem to know what made people Jewish in the 1950's I guess. As I got older I often did busines with Jewish businessmen, and actually was pleased at the compliment. Given a choice I would have been Jewish in a second. Being gay made it not so much of a choice though.


From: ontario | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
RP.
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posted 05 December 2005 03:08 PM      Profile for RP.     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[slight drift]I once had a professor who was a Jew, and was always telling Jew jokes. He said that once, his then quite young child responded to "What's Santa going to bring you for Christmas?" with "Nothin, I'm a Jew."[/slight drift]
From: I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 December 2005 03:09 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, I would find it kind of weird too. I wouldn't feel threatened by it, but I would think that if they asked you once already and you brushed the question off without answering one way or the other (that's the impression I got from the letter, although he or she doesn't say so specifically), that the person would take the hint.

I don't know - can you see yourself going up to a co-worker and saying, "Hey, are you Jewish?" I mean, I have talked to co-workers about religion quite openly during my years of working in offices, but only if we're all just being chatty together anyhow, and it never comes up as a point-blank question - it's usually within the context of a conversation about an upcoming holiday or whatever. And usually people volunteer the information first.

I don't know, I think it's weird.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 05 December 2005 03:39 PM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If anyone inquired of my religion out of the blue I would tell them it's none of their fucking business. Done.
From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 05 December 2005 03:47 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Makwa:
If anyone inquired of my religion out of the blue I would tell them it's none of their fucking business. Done.

Well, if anyone asked me, I'd hunt them down and run them over with my car. So there.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 05 December 2005 03:48 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about asking if a person observes a religion for reasons of wishing to accomodate their holidays, dietary rules, etc?
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 05 December 2005 03:56 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
How about asking if a person observes a religion for reasons of wishing to accomodate their holidays, dietary rules, etc?

True but that question can be asked without asking if one is Jewish. For example around this time of year those who do not celebrate Christmas are not just limited to Jews. One also needs to be aware of those who celebrate Kwanza.


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 December 2005 03:59 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's not how it appeared from this letter. This is a co-worker, and usually it's your boss that you need to talk to about religious holidays and such - and most bosses aren't all out of the blue with, "Hey, Michelle, how's it going? Say, I was just thinking - do you need any special accommodations for religious holidays? 'Cause if you do, just let me know."
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 05 December 2005 04:08 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, I got the context reading the letter, and it does seem my response would be myob. I'm just wondering if such a question can ever be a polite one, or if it is always nosy.

Once, when I was wearing a keffiah (which was a present from a friend who had worked in an NGO in Israel/Palestinian territories) a man walked up to me in a downtown shopping area and started to yell at me about "what are you wearing that for, don't you know those people want to kill us" (I'm translating his words which were in French). By his statement, accent and manner, I think he was Sephardic Jewish (from the Maghreb) and he was accusing me of being a self-hating Jew!

Weird.

On the other hand, a very nice old (Jewish) man who had a little shop asked me if I was Jewish, and it was certainly not rude or intrusive.

(I'm not Jewish, nor otherwise Semitic).


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 05 December 2005 04:09 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
I think we're going to go round and round on this because there is just no seperating the question from how it was asked. Could be friendly, could be threatening. You had to be there. Poster says they felt menanced so probably they were. But there's no way to know for sure -- it's not necessarily an offensive question in the right context.
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Weltschmerz
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posted 05 December 2005 04:21 PM      Profile for Weltschmerz     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am not Jewish, except by marriage, but my wife likes to refer to me as an honorary Jew. She also is completely non-religious, but considers herself a "cultural" Jew.

She has been asked about being Jewish more than a few times, often by the "I've never met a real Jew before!" type, but also by other Jewish people who are just curious. I know that the writer indicated that the co-worker was not Jewish. But sometimes it is just honest curiosity.

It really does come down to the context and how it was asked.

[ 05 December 2005: Message edited by: Weltschmerz ]


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andrean
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posted 05 December 2005 04:26 PM      Profile for andrean     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think questions like "are you Jewish (or whatever)?" are usually asked from one of two positions: either from an insider seeking to establish a cultural connection or from an outsider whose association with the group in question may be either benign or malevolent. It can be hard to know when the question is being asked which is occurring, and it's hard to know when it's safe to give a complete answer.

Of course, "none of your business" is a complete answer, but it's not always what we want to say to colleagues who are potential friends. And neither confirming nor denying often sets up a dynamic of caginess, in which one might feel that they have to guard against revealing too much about themselves. Without knowing the questioner's own location, I'd say that it's usually safest to do what the writer did, which is supply a truthful but incomplete answer, with the knowledge that space is then left for the questioner to fill in with their own assumptions.


From: etobicoke-lakeshore | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 05 December 2005 04:43 PM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by andrean:
Of course, "none of your business" is a complete answer, but it's not always what we want to say to colleagues who are potential friends.
Anyone who could ask such a stupid nosey question could never be a friend of mine.

From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
RP.
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posted 05 December 2005 04:48 PM      Profile for RP.     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Makwa:
Anyone who could ask such a stupid nosey question could never be a friend of mine.

I can instantly tell whether someone is African American with my amazing "Blackdar"

quote:
Last week, I was at the mall food court with my friend Demetrius. The two of us were just sitting there, having fun watching people walk past and trying to pick out who's black. As we're talking, this obviously white guy at the next table overhears us. So he turns to us and says, "How are you guys so good at that? Is it because you yourselves are black? Are you?" I just told him, hey, that's none of your business.

From: I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 05 December 2005 04:55 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I get the impression they may have already asked why he wanted to know and he said it was out of curiosity. They could try asking what difference it makes to him. I think it is a little strange that he asked a second time; if he does again I'd be inclined to confront him; either ask him if he has some sort problem with Jews or else tell him to bugger off.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 05 December 2005 05:00 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
andrean wrote:

quote:
I think questions like "are you Jewish (or whatever)?" are usually asked from one of two positions: either from an insider seeking to establish a cultural connection or from an outsider whose association with the group in question may be either benign or malevolent. It can be hard to know when the question is being asked which is occurring, and it's hard to know when it's safe to give a complete answer.

That is so well put. I think I shall just sit and admire it for a while.

There was a time, not so long ago, when Jewish people in Canada understandably seized up at questions like that right away. Anyone my age - or auntie's - or older will remember. Even without openly discriminatory laws and regulations, there persisted well into, say, the 1960s considerable quiet, unofficial discrimination, and all the ugly osmosing superstition that goes along with it.

I remember that. I've been marked by it. That's why I also like the way that auntie bats the question back right away. For a time, there was no other way to change things. We're here; we're human; get used to it.

It works. Sort of. Slowly.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
andrean
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posted 05 December 2005 05:05 PM      Profile for andrean     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
See, I don't think it is necessarily a stupid, nosy question. It can be but it can just as easily be an awkward attempt to create a connection. It's when you can't tell which it is that there's a problem.

So, if someone says to me, "hey, are you a lesbian?", my affirmative answer could either elicit "you fucking dyke," which is not what I want to hear, or "oh, so am I and I belong to this great lesbian social group and every sunday we meet for tea and cakes...", which is something I might very well want to hear.

The writer described feeling uncomfortable with the questioner's "moderately hostile tone", which I think Auntie overlooked in her response. If someone is asking about your cultural identity in a hostile way, then an equivocal response is appropriate, and if the inquiry (and the moderately hostile tone) persists, then advising one's supervisor might not be out of line. I think that was more the writer's concern, the tone of voice, rather than the specifics of being Jewish or not.


From: etobicoke-lakeshore | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 05 December 2005 06:01 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A friend (who is Jewish), when asked about his religion, has been known to reply, "I guess you could say I'm a lapsed satanist. I don't really practise, but I keep the sacrifices when the family gets together, mostly."
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
idontandwontevergolf
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posted 05 December 2005 06:39 PM      Profile for idontandwontevergolf     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree with everyone who has mentioned that without the context it is difficult to comment but one cannot neglect the writer's concern over the coworker's hostile tone.

A "culturally Jewish" (her term) friend of mine bristles when asked this question when religion is not being discussed. She is of a "certain age" and when she was in her teens and 20's the question often meant that she was going to be denied access to a place/institution or was going to be turfed from a job.

Now, no one has ever asked me if I was a Protestant or Anglo, and I daresay that few WASPs are ever asked this question. This anecdotal information leads me to believe that the question when posed to non-WASPs is one where there is some underlying reason for the person's need to know that should at first be met with skepticism.

A supervisor once said to me, "Oh, I didn't know you were Jewish". It turns out she had read the obituary of a close relative. I had taken the previous day off to go to his funeral. My relative's first name was Samuel. My surname's origin (it's not golf, by the way) is impossible for most people to pin down, though to some it may "sound" Jewish. (I have never met anyone outside of immediate family with the same name.) I was really put off by her comment and felt that her thinking that I was Jewish somehow put me in a different category and she would have to re-think all of her notions of me.

She was, by the way, a twit in all respects. Had she read the obit fully, she would have noticed that the funeral service took place at an Anglican church.


From: Between two highways | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
gunnar gunnarson
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posted 05 December 2005 09:44 PM      Profile for gunnar gunnarson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I used to be able to tell without asking, but oy gevalt -- my J-dar ain't what it used to be.
From: audra's corner | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 05 December 2005 10:30 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
MartinArendt
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posted 05 December 2005 10:52 PM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by idontandwontevergolf:

My surname's origin (it's not golf, by the way) is impossible for most people to pin down, though to some it may "sound" Jewish. (I have never met anyone outside of immediate family with the same name.)

"it's not golf, by the way..."

I think the context is everything for a question like this (echoing what several other posters have already said). I don't mind if people ask me about being Jewish (or have questions about Judaism) with an open mind. I do mind if they're trying to be malicious, or using it as an excuse to spout off "Zionist conspiracy" nonsense.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 06 December 2005 12:33 AM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I play the guess my background game all the time.

To this day only one person has guessed it correctly.

I'm really open about my background/religion. Even if it opens me up for attack, I just feel that if someone is that interested telling them to bugger off isn't going to help dissuade their interest.


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Chubbles
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posted 06 December 2005 01:11 AM      Profile for Chubbles        Edit/Delete Post
I think auntie was unnecessarily harsh on this one. This guy's possible Jewishness was obviously important enough to be questioned twice. That would make me want to come back with an even ruder question in response.
From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
gunnar gunnarson
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posted 06 December 2005 10:47 PM      Profile for gunnar gunnarson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mods:

would a story that makes light of the jewish predilection for chinese food be in poor taste?


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jrootham
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posted 06 December 2005 10:55 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Depends on how good the food is.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
gunnar gunnarson
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posted 06 December 2005 11:12 PM      Profile for gunnar gunnarson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Food doesn't actually appear -- it's notional in this case.
From: audra's corner | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
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posted 06 December 2005 11:17 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If there is no food, wouldn't it be tasteless by definition?
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gunnar gunnarson
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posted 06 December 2005 11:18 PM      Profile for gunnar gunnarson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I suppose, but tasteless isn't the same thing as in poor taste!

[ 06 December 2005: Message edited by: gunnar gunnarson ]


From: audra's corner | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 08 December 2005 12:30 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Makwa:
If anyone inquired of my religion out of the blue I would tell them it's none of their fucking business. Done.

Wow, talk about over reaction.

I had a dinner party last year and I asked a new acquaintance if they were a practicing Muslim. I'm glad I asked because we were going to server a Hawaiian pork dish and horderves with bacon. Instead we had Turkey (their first).


From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
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posted 08 December 2005 12:52 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Checking on dietary requirements is not out of the blue.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 December 2005 12:55 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's a difference between asking someone specifically about dietary requirements because they're coming over for supper, and just repeatedly asking someone about their religion for no particular reason other than "curiosity".
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 08 December 2005 01:01 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
Since so many people have dietary restrictions for all kinds of reasons, including religious ones, it's best to ask everyone if they have any, without assuming Muslims or Jews are more likely to have them than other people.

Lots of people may well consider themselves to be practicing a religion without following its dietary restrictions.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
slimpikins
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posted 08 December 2005 05:01 PM      Profile for slimpikins     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Growing up as a half-assed practicing Jew in redneck Alberta, it was surprisingly not much of an issue. People just always assumed that I must of course be a christian because I wasn't obviously different from everyone else. I was asked on a few occasions in school, and it never did me any good to even answer. I soon learned that the best answer was no answer, unless they were friends who were just wanting to get to know me better. If they were just nosy, I would just ignore them, and if they asked again, I would politely say 'Mind your own fucking business' and walk away.
From: Alberta | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 08 December 2005 06:41 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Personally I would not be offended by such a question. But I think it's all in the context. I grew up in Montreal and that city is (was) divided into ethnic geographic districts. School was segregated by language and religion. So when someone asked where do you "live" it often meant "what" are you. Things have changed a little in Montreal, but 10 years ago Parizeau's famous we lost the referendum because of the "money people" and "ethnics" speech made me cringe in a familiar way. One of the not so pleasant ways to ask that I have experienced was: "when do you people celebrate your Christmas." Oddly enough on the west coast, fairly recently when my father asked where the bagel store was, someone politely told him (incorrectly)to "go back to Palestine...and there he will find bagels!" This is a far cry from the "no Jews or dogs allowed" signs in old Quebec, but it's all in the way and context I think. Sorry for "babbling" on too much.
From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ginger Jar
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posted 08 December 2005 06:54 PM      Profile for Ginger Jar        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, if anyone asked me, I'd hunt them down and run them over with my car. So there.

Yeah?
I'd chain them behind my pickup and drag them over a logging road to my fave greasy spoon where I'd contemplate their bloody stump through a table side window.

Is that "Are you Jewish?" enough for you, pal?
Ever since, I been the Champ.


From: green glen | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 08 December 2005 09:01 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ginger Jar:

Yeah?
I'd chain them behind my pickup and drag them over a logging road to my fave greasy spoon where I'd contemplate their bloody stump through a table side window.

Is that "Are you Jewish?" enough for you, pal?
Ever since, I been the Champ.


Come now, Ginger, everybody knows that loudmouths like you drive Geos -- assuming your mommie lets you have a car. Overcompensate much?


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 09 December 2005 12:23 AM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:
Come now, Ginger, everybody knows that loudmouths like you drive Geos...

You can't run anyone over with a Geo. It doesn't have enough power.

From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 09 December 2005 08:27 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:

You can't run anyone over with a Geo. It doesn't have enough power.

Maybe an inquisitive midget?


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
fast_twitch_neurons
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posted 09 December 2005 10:16 PM      Profile for fast_twitch_neurons     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I personally find it is Jewish people who are more likely to ask me if I am Jewish or not, but maybe that's because I live in Montreal. I guess that I personally wouldn't care that much if a coworker asked me what my religion was, but a lot would depend on the tone in which the person asked, and the context.
From: Montreal | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 10 December 2005 12:57 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
People always ask me what "nationality" my last name is.

When I tell them it's Arabic, they look at my waist, then move away in a hurry.

Geez, haven't they ever seen a beer belly before?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 December 2005 05:17 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by fast_twitch_neurons:
I personally find it is Jewish people who are more likely to ask me if I am Jewish or not, but maybe that's because I live in Montreal. I guess that I personally wouldn't care that much if a coworker asked me what my religion was, but a lot would depend on the tone in which the person asked, and the context.


That is true.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
PEIguy
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posted 10 December 2005 07:40 AM      Profile for PEIguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I really enjoy asking semi-personal questions of people. I love the reactions - some are fun, some are hostile, but all are interesting and usually lead to a conversation at one level or another. Folks should be proud of who and what they are and scream it out at every opportuinity.

I guess my problem is that I am nothing. (Heavy sigh, here folks). A boring white guy who grew up in boring Toronto suburb and has a boring angl-saxon name and never attached to a religion and ....

But seriously, I find the way people talk about themselves and their heritage greatly interesting, and if my questions offend, I expect to be told. Hopefully not, but what the hell.


From: PEI | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 10 December 2005 05:30 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
People always ask me what "nationality" my last name is.

When I tell them it's Arabic, they look at my waist, then move away in a hurry.

Geez, haven't they ever seen a beer belly before?


That is the best one I heard in a while!! Thanks for that! Puts into humorous perspective.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
MartinArendt
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posted 10 December 2005 07:04 PM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by PEIguy:

I guess my problem is that I am nothing. (Heavy sigh, here folks). A boring white guy who grew up in boring Toronto suburb and has a boring angl-saxon name and never attached to a religion and ....

If people should be proud of their heritage, why aren't you? What I mean is, how are you "nothing"? Where are your folks from? What about your grand-parents?

I don't like the idea of "white" being "neutral", and everything else being "exotic", or "cultural". Everybody has a culture of some kind. Even talking about "Canadian culture" implies something; maybe a collective of shared values, maybe not.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kassandra
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posted 13 December 2005 11:11 AM      Profile for Kassandra     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All my life when people ask me "What are you?" I ask back,"Can't you tell?" No one has gotten it right yet.
Reading the posts in this discussion reminds me that the sociobiologists are exactly right when they point out the genetically based obsession whith identifying with this or that group, gang, religion, tribe, family, nation, race, sexual orientaion, car make, sports team, political party, astrological sign, dietary preferance/avoidance/tolerance/intolerance, village, fetish, or.......whatever.
We didn't gang together to avoid the lions a hundred thou ago; we did it to avoid being killed by other people...that we were roaming around trying to kill.
We were and are wild animals and are and will be civilized animals. The struggle for human status is the struggle against the animal obsession that is displayed on this discussion board.
By the way; what am I? Biggest, meanest , toughest gang of all. Human being.

From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 13 December 2005 11:24 AM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by PEIguy:
...A boring white guy who grew up in boring Toronto suburb and has a boring angl-saxon name...

If your roots are in PEI, then it's possible your boring Anglo-Saxon name was originally German or French; a bunch of Germans and at least one Channel Islander fought for the British during the American Revolution, then settled on PEI and anglicised their names [Henckell to Jenkins, Eichhorn to Acorn, Brehaut to Burhoe, etc.]

From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
PEIguy
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posted 13 December 2005 11:36 AM      Profile for PEIguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, I was MIA for a while.

Actually I am from Toronto, parents from Guelph, mother's parents from Yorkshire, England, father's from the US of A. And I was actually just kidding around about being 'nothing', and I do not have low self-esteem.

There are many government forms that I have filled out over the years that ask about one's heritage. I always found that an odd question to answer, because my answer is 'Canadian' and I seem to think they want more than that. But that's what I tell people - I am Canadian (and I like the beer too!).


From: PEI | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
LemonThriller
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posted 14 December 2005 04:20 PM      Profile for LemonThriller     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh come on! Can't someone be curious anymore? I find it fascinating to hear about peoples' backgrounds, and I ask people about theirs all the time.

Isn't it being a little prejudiced in assuming this guy has alterior motives? Granted, if he is coming of *really* creepy than I think it may be cause for concern, but not for hiding who you are.

I think by hiding our identities, we end up stigmatizing them. Be proud of who you are, and when someone gives you a reason to feel harassed, fight back with everything you've got!


From: Halifax, N.S. | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
uh clem
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posted 29 January 2006 08:00 AM      Profile for uh clem   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My parents were Jewish and I was raised Jewish, but I never believed. So for years, I would answer, "No" to the question "Are you Jewish". (It came up a lot; I taught World Religions for 20 years, and it's a relevant question of one's teacher.) But after a few discussions with other non-blelieving Jews about what constitutes Judaism, I moved over to Auntie's view, and (in a very Jewish way) would answer the question with a question, "What do you mean by Jewish?" When they'd explained what they meant (usually religion or ethnicity) I could answer.

These days I explain I'm a jpg, a Jewish Pagan. Close enough....

[ 29 January 2006: Message edited by: uh clem ]

[ 29 January 2006: Message edited by: uh clem ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 29 January 2006 08:14 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Welcome back, uh clem!

I've missed you a lot. Just going to read you now, but it's great to have you back.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
sidra
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posted 29 January 2006 08:23 AM      Profile for sidra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I really liked auntie's answer, especially the paranoia bit.

Simple, pick one

I am. I am not. I do not ask and I wish not to be asked such questions. I already told you I am. I already told you I am not.

Supervisor? Complain? Some babblers added "creepy"? Get a grip folks. This is not Germany of the 1940's.

My answers is usually "I am Canadian, I was born in ..... I go to (house of worship) once in a blue moon, marriage, funerals." I did in occasions answer "It doesn't matter". No creepiness that I have felt. No supervisor. No complaint.

[ 29 January 2006: Message edited by: sidra ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 29 January 2006 09:03 AM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by uh clem:
These days I explain I'm a jpg

And being born to Jewish parents, I'm pretty sure we can guess what was lost in compression.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
cdnviking
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posted 29 January 2006 09:46 AM      Profile for cdnviking        Edit/Delete Post
I OBJECT to being asked my "religion".

It seems that virtually every government form seems to have a box for that kind of question.

My kids were born in a publically funded CATHOLIC hospital... my religion was queried.

The census, which you are LEGALLY required to participate in (don't and you face a fine and/or imprisonment) has the question too. I ducked filling in the form and was HARRASSED by a civil servant, by phone, for weeks DEMANDING I take time to answer the telephone questionaire. I was told if I refused, I COULD BE ARRESTED, so I submitted, UNDER PROTEST.

ANY question I REFUSED to answer (including religious affiliation), I WAS THREATENED with a fine if I didn't answer!

I am not jewish. I am an atheist. I DON'T seem to fit into ANY category on the census that deals with RELIGION.

I understand how some can be "creeped out", as I am if asked!


From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 29 January 2006 10:16 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
uh clem, is that Walter Benjamin in your blog profile? (Very interesting blog, by the way)...

And do you speak German?


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Alan Avans
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posted 29 January 2006 10:52 AM      Profile for Alan Avans   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by fast_twitch_neurons:
I personally find it is Jewish people who are more likely to ask me if I am Jewish or not...

Same here.

My surname has been enough to bring forth the question, since there are some eastern European Jews with that surname....which in my case happens to be Welsh and a variant spelling of 'Evans.'

Go grocery shopping and loadup on hummus, tahini and halvah and if the person checking you out is Jewish you're going to be asked if you're Jewish too. Almost guaranteed.

I'm a Mormon boy, very southern, with a little Spanish, black and a big dollop of Native American thrown in. Not Jewish. But I am step-Jewish. My step-father is Jewish. I josh my mother about being her being his "shiksa."


From: Christian Democratic Union of USAmerica | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 January 2006 01:08 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Go grocery shopping and loadup on hummus, tahini and halvah...

Three Arab foods, by the way, which is odd.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Alan Avans
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posted 29 January 2006 02:09 PM      Profile for Alan Avans   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Three Arab foods, by the way, which is odd.


Israelis think that stuff is really yum. So do Greeks, Turks, Armenians etc.

Down here when you walk into the Kosher foods area, along with the Maniscewicz brand you'll find various Israeli brands of this and that and the other that both Israelis and Arabs know to be yummy. I suppose that Morroccan Jews eat like Morrocans still, and Yemeni Arab Jews still eat like Yemenis and so forth.


From: Christian Democratic Union of USAmerica | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 29 January 2006 02:48 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yecch, Manischewitz! (Thinking of those horrific so-called "wines" - by the way there are many quality wines that are kosher; no reason to drink that crap.)

Indeed there is a growing trend to Sephardic and other Middle-Eastern foods, for reasons of health and flavour...

Moroccan Jews always have eaten pretty much like Moroccan Muslims; the differences in the dietary laws in the Maghreb and the Middle East don't make for an entirely different culinary repertory, unlike Central and Eastern Europe where pork products held such an important place on the (goyish) table.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Alan Avans
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posted 29 January 2006 02:55 PM      Profile for Alan Avans   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Yecch, Manischewitz! (Thinking of those horrific so-called "wines" - by the way there are many quality wines that are kosher; no reason to drink that crap.)

Indeed there is a growing trend to Sephardic and other Middle-Eastern foods, for reasons of health and flavour...

Moroccan Jews always have eaten pretty much like Moroccan Muslims; the differences in the dietary laws in the Maghreb and the Middle East don't make for an entirely different culinary repertory, unlike Central and Eastern Europe where pork products held such an important place on the (goyish) table.


Well, Manny isn't just about wine, but yes, I agree, their wines are just a wee cut above Mad Dog 20/20 and Nyquil. They also do soups and broths. Chicken soup. Matzo ball soup. Potatoe Latkes. Crackers of all kinds. Shabbat candles. Hannukah gelt. Grape juice. Tea. An ok assortment of stuff to throw on the shelf.


From: Christian Democratic Union of USAmerica | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
uh clem
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posted 29 January 2006 03:41 PM      Profile for uh clem   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
uh clem, is that Walter Benjamin in your blog profile? (Very interesting blog, by the way)...

And do you speak German?


Nope, it's a photo of me, after my wife went photoshopping. And thank you for the kind compliment [/blush]

My parents would never speak German (to us, to each other, to German tourists) while my brother and I were growing up, except that after we got fluent in French they'd use it to discuss things they didn't want us to understand. So I have a very minimal vocabulary, mostly involving either ice cream or toys.

[ 29 January 2006: Message edited by: uh clem ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Serendipity
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posted 29 January 2006 10:56 PM      Profile for Serendipity     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's funny. A friend of mine, not openly Jewish or practicing, was approached on campus by an orthodox man, hoping to read him the moral of this week's parasha (which is sort of like the "Torah-chapter-of the week"). This man called out to him in a busy courtyard and asked: "EXCUSE ME! ARE YOU JEWISH?!"

My friend glared at the man and screamed, even louder, "I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU THINK I AM, BUT I DO NOT WANT TO BE HARRASSED IN THE STREET...FARSHTAIT???"

Made my day.

ETA for non-Jews: The humour is this situation comes from the fact that he actually confirmed his Jewishness by saying the word "farshtait" - the Yiddish equivalent of capisce?.

[ 29 January 2006: Message edited by: Serendipity ]


From: montreal | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
the grey
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posted 30 January 2006 10:12 AM      Profile for the grey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by cdnviking:
I am not jewish. I am an atheist. I DON'T seem to fit into ANY category on the census that deals with RELIGION.

The census question on religion is a fill-in-the-blank, or a "no religion" tick box. Either "my religion is 'atheist'" or "i have no religion" should be "acceptable" answers to the census folks.

Yeah, completing the census is mandatory. And it should be. But hopefully next time you won't get the long form (the short one doesn't ask about religion).


From: London, Ontario | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 30 January 2006 10:36 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Serendipity's story is hilarious!

That (Lubavitscher proselytising) has happened to me; will have to remember that response...

Now, to make sure I say it in Yiddish and not Hochdeutsch...

----
Edited to add:

That said, I agree with Judy that "being Jewish" is not just a matter of religious faith: it can refer to ethnic identity (or "nationality" as Bundists and others would have called it in the days of the old Russian empire) - or perhaps even to being subject to persecution on that basis. Or is the latter letting one's persecutors define oneself?

[ 30 January 2006: Message edited by: lagatta ]


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
who's tory now
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posted 31 January 2006 05:25 PM      Profile for who's tory now        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RealityBites:

And being born to Jewish parents, I'm pretty sure we can guess what was lost in compression.



No one ever asks me if I am Jewish, not suprisingly, as I am not born to Jewish parents,don't look Jewish, and don't have a Jewish sounding name.However,if there was a box for this somewhere, I would tick "Jewish by association,inclination, and possibly by previous life" The mother of my children, who I spent twenty years with is Jewish, which makes my children Jewish by Jewish law,by Hitler's laws,and probably by Hamas law as well.I spent six months in Israel, on a kibbutz ulpan program learning Hebrew. My grown children consider themselves Jewish, but not religious.


From: victoria | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 01 February 2006 01:47 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by PEIguy:

I guess my problem is that I am nothing. (Heavy sigh, here folks). A boring white guy who grew up in boring Toronto suburb and has a boring anglo-saxon name and never attached to a religion and ....

Speaking as a partly Anglo Saxon, the Anglo-Saxons have lotsa interesting background, and that boring name may well mean something cool. Some of the dorkiest sounding names have cool meanings from Old English--both last and first names. Take "Egbert" for instance. It's from Old English meaning "edge-bright" and is a poetic reference to a sword blade. Who'd have thunk such a dorky name had such a hardass background?
Beowulf, the Battle of Maldon, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and so on and so forth, all the way up to J.R.R. Tolkien make a rich cultural heritage, with unique poetic forms and interesting systems of imagery. Tolkien would claim that the Norse and Anglo-Saxons together developed the Northern Theory of Courage, deeply embedded in the myth system and stories of those people, which uniquely puts forward the ethic of standing for the right even if you know you're gonna lose and be killed, not just in this life but eternally. That is to say, monotheistic religious systems and some others put forth the ethic of courage because you know you'll go somewhere good afterwards if you follow the right path, so death doesn't matter. Some myth systems, like the Greek, mainly address different issues. But in the Norse/Saxon myth system, the gods themselves are gonna lose, and one of the major points is you have to back them anyway. Being right is enough, even in the face of doom. A very useful ethic for progressives, especially atheist ones.

The Anglo-Saxon peasantry were traditionally some of the toughest, most independent peasants in the world, successfully building a common law tradition that culminated in the rise of democracy, in the teeth of Norman overlords who were determined to impose all-out top-down feudalism. Wat Tyler, the diggers, the chartist movement . . .

I agree with MartinArendt:

quote:
I don't like the idea of "white" being "neutral", and everything else being "exotic", or "cultural". Everybody has a culture of some kind.

Anglo Saxons are just as exotic and cultural as any other group. They're not, or should not be, some kind of default background shmoo; it's simultaneously unfair to everyone else and unfair to them.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
eau
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posted 03 February 2006 01:56 PM      Profile for eau        Edit/Delete Post
I would not be offended if someone asked me if I was a Christian, I am not..and if I was asking someone if they were Jewish it would probably have more to do with cooking than anything else.
I have a great cookbook called the Jewish Womans Cookbook, and Im not Jewish either.

I dont see any reason to be offended by the question.


From: BC | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
gunnar gunnarson
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posted 04 February 2006 03:14 PM      Profile for gunnar gunnarson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah. When it comes to proselytizing, the Lubavitchers are the Jewish answer to the Jehovah's Witnesses.

And re the kosher wines, what lagatta said. On a sweetness scale of 1 to 10, they're about a 26. They're not designed for drinking -- they're designed for settling unruly kids down at passover seders.


From: audra's corner | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 04 February 2006 03:41 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by gunnar gunnarson:
And re the kosher wines, what lagatta said. On a sweetness scale of 1 to 10, they're about a 26. They're not designed for drinking -- they're designed for settling unruly kids down at passover seders.

But if they're that sweet, wouldn't the sugar counteract the effects of the alcohol, and leave the kids as wired as ever, or even more so?


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
gunnar gunnarson
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posted 06 February 2006 12:31 AM      Profile for gunnar gunnarson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You would think that, wouldn't you.

On the other hand, 4000 years of history says otherwise ...


From: audra's corner | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 06 February 2006 05:22 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Manischewitz wines have NOT existed for 4000 years, nor even 400.

There are plenty of wines that follow kosher rules in the world that are perfectly drinkable, and some that are very good indeed.

Here is a fact sheet on a kosher chardonnay from Fortrant de France, a winery in the south of France that produces affordable and decent wines, kosher and non-kosher. As you can see, the requirements of the kosher process might be of interest to some non-Jews as well, including vegetarians.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 06 February 2006 07:56 AM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:
The Anglo-Saxon peasantry were traditionally some of the toughest, most independent peasants in the world, successfully building a common law tradition that culminated in the rise of democracy, in the teeth of Norman overlords who were determined to impose all-out top-down feudalism.
Thus explaining the love of fried bread. That's tough.

From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 06 February 2006 08:09 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here are a couple of notes on the (colonialist) origins of frybread as a staple in the cuisines of some Amerindian peoples:

Frybread - Native American culture

Indian Country - giving up fat "Indian" food

"Frybread was a gift of Western civilization from the days when Native people were removed from buffalo, elk, deer, salmon, turkey, corn, beans, squash, acorns, fruit, wild rice and other real food".


Getting back to the original topic, is there Jewish fried bread? Or just latkes and other fried Chanukah foods?

Just thinking - I suppose Matzo brei would be the closest Jewish equivalent to fried bread. A way of making matzo somewhat palatable...

[ 06 February 2006: Message edited by: lagatta ]


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
gunnar gunnarson
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posted 06 February 2006 10:12 AM      Profile for gunnar gunnarson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A couple of years ago there was a proposal to raise funds to send matzo and kosher wine to the Jews of Cuba. It fell through when someone suggested that they'd suffered enough already.


From: audra's corner | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alan Avans
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posted 08 February 2006 09:54 AM      Profile for Alan Avans   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by gunnar gunnarson:
A couple of years ago there was a proposal to raise funds to send matzo and kosher wine to the Jews of Cuba. It fell through when someone suggested that they'd suffered enough already.


ROFL!


From: Christian Democratic Union of USAmerica | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 10 March 2006 09:30 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I got the "are you Jewish" question this afternoon on Plaza St-Hubert (not a typically "Jewish" area, though some shopkeepers are from the Middle East and North Africa, including Muslim Arabs and others, Christian Lebanese and Syrians, and Sephardic Jews.

Three young men in black hats and coats (but without sidelocks) were passing out leaflets. They asked me, almost whispering, if I was Jewish, after eyeing me for an extended period. Since they definitely did not look like Nazi skinheads, I decided to have fun and tell a white lie: "Yes, but I'm an atheist". They said they were Lubavitchers and wished me a good day; I responded in kind.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brett Mann
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posted 13 March 2006 12:41 AM      Profile for Brett Mann        Edit/Delete Post
I am not Jewish but I'm drawn to this discussion. My departed father who I loved dearly used to be a choirmaster in first Baptist, then Roman Catholic churches. He said more than once that if he had not been a Catholic, his next choice would have been to be a Jew. He was a sucker for liturgy and ceremony and a certain kind of integrity and spiritual beauty.

The deeper significance of this topic is the issue it raises about raising the issue of ethnic/religious identity. An unfortunate side-effect of the identity politics we have seen so much of is an automatic defensiveness, paranoia even, when identity matters are raised. Once again, the Jews are well placed to show us how to deal with this problem with grace and humour, and will undoubtedly show the leadership they have evidenced in every important societal struggle of the last century.

Rufus, your talk about the Norse origins of the concept of fighting for the right cause, even unto certain defeat, is important. This represents the beginnings of true existentialism.


From: Prince Edward County ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Joey Kay
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posted 13 March 2006 02:43 AM      Profile for Joey Kay     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 15 June 2007: Message edited by: Joey Kay ]


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 13 March 2006 08:27 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, since it is Purim, one is OBLIGED to have a festive meal and drink copious wine! (a user-friendly holiday, that). But I'd still prefer something other than Manischewitz, thank you very much!
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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Babbler # 11323

posted 13 March 2006 08:31 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Well, since it is Purim, one is OBLIGED to have a festive meal and drink copious wine! (a user-friendly holiday, that). But I'd still prefer something other than Manischewitz, thank you very much!

Yeah, and with Haman visiting Kandahar, and a slight "accident", we might have something to drink to!


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged

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