I am a firm believer that no matter what your circumstances, the individual is, ultimately, responsible for their own actions. I can’t stand it when I hear things like “ (insert name) made me do it” or “ It’s (insert name)’s fault that I’ve been drinking more/eating poorly/not going to school/etc”.

There are a great many things in my own life that I struggle to avoid or know I should do more of. I know that being around certain people or situations I am more likely to give into behaviours that are not my ideal. As a result, sometimes I avoid the situation, sometimes I try to figure out how to deal with the situation in a better way, and sometimes I ignore what I *should* do and give into temptation. But in the end, it’s MY choice, whether that choice is made consciously or not. The result, whatever it might be, is the result of my choice.

I would never expect anyone to always do what is best or to always have the answers, only to accept responsibility for their own choices. I also understand that some people have fewer and more difficult choices than others and that outside pressures do play a role in those choices.

My problem is this...

I have always been somewhat of a confidante among my friends. I’m a good listener and am not, generally, judgmental.

But lately I’ve been having a great deal of difficulty sympathizing with a number of my friends as, more often than not, they refuse to either acknowledge that their own choices put them where they are now (eg... getting involved with people who is with someone else, then getting hurt by that person) or that it is up to them to make the choices to move away from the situation. You can’t rely on the other person to make it all better. The other person also has to make that choice for themselves.

I feel like I’m hearing the same thing over and over again, no matter what the individual situation might be. People always seem to blame everything and anything except themselves. It’s tiring and I feel that, more often than not, these people only want for me to reiterate to them that they are victims of their situations.

I am not one to lie and tell people only what they want to hear. If someone asks me a direct question I will answer it as truthfully as I can. If, after listening, I (gently) point out that any part of it might be of their own doing and that maybe they should take some kind of action to resolve the situation I get exploded upon for not being understanding.

What do you think? Am I being insensitive to those in need or are my frustrations justified? How do you think individual responsibility has a role in greater issues such as poverty or addiction?

(Does this make sense? Gawd, I wish I was better at putting my thoughts into words... )

- People do choose actions and earn the consequences of them -- even if they are not in their right minds. Folks with mental illnesses don't strike me as being as "responsible" for their unusual actions given the nature of their disorders. So, I tend to see responsibility in shades of gray.

- Not everything that happens to someone is the result of previous personal choice. I mean, one can twist a situation and interpret enough to try to make it seem that way.

- I'm very, very careful about pointing out people's own roles in their situations. Like you, I've been stung. Even if I can see it, I seldom talk about it. If I'm asked, I sometimes say, "What do you think you ought to do?" Other times, I will talk about similar experiences of my own, and how I dealt with them. It is a hard-learned truism that we really can only change ourselves, no matter how good our intentions are. I find I'm enough to work on without getting entangled in the problems of others. Often enough, they seem to find their way to a good understanding of what to do without me when their discomfort gets great enough. God knows it had to get pretty bad for me to want to change -- and I had received lots of well-intended (and for that matter correct) advice from people.

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(Does this make sense? Gawd, I wish I was better at putting my thoughts into words... )

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I think you said it perfectly Dee and this is one issue that drives me nuts. I think you are dealt the cards you get and no matter how unfair anyone thinks it is that is just the way it is.

Everyone has a crutch, even me, and as far as I am concerned anytime you see me leaning on mine, give it a swift kick out from under me.

I have a friend who goes from woman to woman looking for what he figures I have. A loveing stable long term relationship with one person.

Yet he goes for the (not to be derogitory) most superficial women he can find. And so the moment someone comes along with a better car, house, face or credit limit, their gone like a box of donuts in a cop shop.

Yet he can't figure out why this happens.
Of course he refuses to admit anything of the sort but there you go.

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If I'm asked, I sometimes say, "What do you think you ought to do?" Other times, I will talk about similar experiences of my own, and how I dealt with them.

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Excellent suggestions, paxamillion, and ones I will definately try to use. If I respond by stating how I would deal with a situation instead of suggesting to someone how they could deal with it, it would probably not come across as so insensitive. Either way I would be saying the same thing but I wouldn't be perceived as blaming anyone.

Usually, though, I find that if I ask someone what they think they should do I get a response like "If I knew that, I wouldn't be in this mess!"

Slick: I completely understand your situation with your friend. It can be SO frustrating when you see a person do the same things time and time again and they always come to you bewildered that they are continually being hurt.

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say you would like to help but you're just leaving for a month long stay with a relative in some far off part of the world you can't be reached at.

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It can be SO frustrating when you see a person do the same things time and time again and they always come to you bewildered that they are continually being hurt.

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It is difficult, I agree. It's also tough to see people doing and doing the same behaviour knowing full well they are harming themselves and still going at it with the mistaken notion that *this* time it will be different.

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How do you think individual responsibility has a role in greater issues such as poverty or addiction?

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It's really easy to say a drug addict or a person living in poverty has a choice. It takes OUR responsibility away. When faced with a person in a situation that scares us I think it is infinitely more useful to say to ourselves "How have I contributed to this? How can I help make it better?" rather than "Those idiots, can't they see the truth in front of their faces?"

When someone has been raised in poverty, chances are they will remain in poverty. When someone is raised with a drug addict, chances are they will suffer from addiction. How can we help these children learn that they do have choices? It's not a knowledge we are born with, it is taught. And it is easier to see coming from a privilaged background.

IF these people have a choice, then it is our responsibility to make sure it is offered to them in a way they can understand and make use of.

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: skadie ]

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When faced with a person in a situation that scares us I think it is infinitely more useful to say to ourselves "How have I contributed to this? How can I help make it better?"

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Those who are comfortable seem to think they are that way due to their toil.

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When faced with a person in a situation that scares us I think it is infinitely more useful to say to ourselves "How have I contributed to this? How can I help make it better?"

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Absolutely, but I also believe that the person who is actually IN the situation should also be asking themselves those questions. That is no.t to say that society as a whole does not have some responsibility towards those among us who are struggling (for whatever reason).

I also agree that it is up to society both to provide choices and educate "at risk types" about the choices they do have. But at the end of the day there is still an individual choice to be made.

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Do you believe that those people should NEVER be accountable for their choices because, yes, they do have more of a struggle to make the "right" ones?

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First of all, if you believe that all people have the same choices available to them, then you are delusional. So much of what we think of as choices are actually privilages that we grew up with. Does a child choose to live in poverty? Does a child choose to live with an addicted or abusive parent? Does that same child have the view point that they have any choice at all? Or that their choices matter? When that child becomes an adult, what will they pass on to their children?

Secondly, it takes much more than choosing to leave poverty, addiction or abuse behind. The choice is only the first step. Then you need education, resources and infinite amounts of support. So what is the point of choosing at all, if there are none of these tools at your disposal? The less we care about "these people" the less likely they are to make better choices.

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my own recovery very much depends on my belief that no one made me become what I became.

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I don't think that recovery depends on that belief. It may be a valuable lesson learned through recovery, but if there isn't someone there to teach you then how are you going to make that change? (Maybe if you shared what you have recovered from your statement would have more credability.)

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: skadie ]

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Those who are comfortable seem to think they are that way due to their toil.

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But skadie wasn't talking about herself. She seemed to me to be talking from the perspective of someone who knows herself what responsibility is, but is still thinking of others.

I think people might be bringing very different kinds of concrete situations to this discussion. To me, the seriousness of the pickle makes a difference. So might the presence of other actors; some people really are victimizers, and some people really do get victimized.

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I don't think that recovery depends on that belief. It may be a valuable lesson learned through recovery, but if there isn't someone there to teach you then how are you going to make that change? (Maybe if you shared what you have recovered from your statement would have more credability.)

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I'm a little over 2.5 years since my last drink. And there was someone there to teach me -- the fellowship of AA. Of course, I knew no one else made me drink when I showed up at my first meeting. How is that for credibility? What in your life experience gives your beliefs a similar weight?

People who don't hold a similar belief think that their addictive behaviour will go away or somehow magically come into control if things or people besides themselves change. I knew a guy who used to say he wouldn't drink so much if his wife didn't nag him so much. She left him, the nagging stopped, and his drinking didn't.

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: paxamillion ]

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First of all, if you believe that all people have the same choices available to them, then you are delusional.

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It's good to know, then, that I am not delusional. Of course not all people have the same choices. I believe I've stated something to that effect in one of my previous posts.

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Does a child choose to live in poverty? Does a child choose to live with an addicted or abusive parent? Does that same child have the view point that they have any choice at all? Or that their choices matter? When that child becomes an adult, what will they pass on to their children

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You are right. Children cannot be held accountable for their circumstances because they don't have a choice. It is up to parents, and society to make good choices for them. I did not intend to state that they are in complete control of their own choices or surroundings.

On the flipside, how about a child raised by racist/bigotted parents. Once that child becomes an adult is their background sufficient justification for racist behaviour? Does their background make it okay?

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Secondly, it takes much more than choosing to leave poverty, addiction or abuse behind. The choice is only the first step. Then you need education, resources and infinite amounts of support. So what is the point of choosing at all, if there are none of these tools at your disposal?

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Society does play a large role but cannot do anything without the eventual decision of the individual. Without that decision, society can do nothing.

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Bullshit. Without society the decision can do nothing.

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I'm a little over 2.5 years since my last drink. And there was someone there to teach me -- the fellowship of AA. Of course, I knew no one else made me drink when I showed up at my first meeting. How is that for credibility?

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Without society the decision can do nothing.

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how about a child raised by racist/bigotted parents. Once that child becomes an adult is their background sufficient justification for racist behaviour? Does their background make it okay?

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No, it isn't OK. And neither is poverty, addiction or abuse. But is this child supposed to leave home, enter the world, and forget everything the learned from thier most powerful support system? Or are we responsible for guiding them?

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Without society the decision can do nothing.
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Perhaps one depends on the other?

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