babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » right brain babble   » humanities & science   » Gay Monkeys

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Gay Monkeys
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 04 May 2003 03:44 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Most troubling, perhaps, to the theory of sexual selection, is the high incidence of homosexuality. Homosexual behaviour in animals, though well demonstrated in the literature written by scientists who actually observe what animals get up to, has tended to be glossed over by theoreticians. But Paul Vasey, a researcher at the University of Lethbridge in Alberta, Canada, has spent many years studying both theory and practice in Japanese macaques.

Female macaques often form homosexual consortships. These are temporary but exclusive relationships that involve frequent sexual activity. Females in a consortship will mount each other tens or hundreds of times. In one group that Dr Vasey observed, females mounted each other as often as once every two minutes. Yet his observations suggest these consortships serve no adaptive function. He has spent many years testing hypotheses that might explain the behaviour, such as alliance forming, the relief of social tension and the communication of dominance. There is, he says, not a shred of evidence for any of them. Female mounting behaviour may have evolutionary roots, but he reckons the reason for it now is sexual gratification. That gratification is involved is known because when a female mounts another female she thrusts her pelvis against the mountee and masturbates her clitoris using her tail.

This activity, of course, excludes males. In one study, Dr Vasey found that when male monkeys courted a female involved in a homosexual consortship, 95% of such females rebuffed him and chose to remain with their girlfriend. This suggests, he says, that it is not simply males who are competing for sexual partners, as Darwin's theory predicts, but both males and females. And homosexual behaviour is documented in at least 15 other species, including Canada geese, gorillas, chimpanzees and humans.

Such examples may not be enough to topple sexual selection, and it is likely that this part of Darwin's theory does indeed hold good for many species. But as Dr Roughgarden warns supporters of that theory, although any one of these problems with it might be overlooked, the “sheer number of difficulties is hard to deny. If these are not enough to falsify sexual-selection theory, then what would be?” Sex, it seems, has come a long way since Darwin.



From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 04 May 2003 04:11 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's a book review that appeared in the Observer a few years ago. The link to the Observer is broken so I'm pasting it in here.

quote:
Birds do, bees do it ...

ADAM MARS-JONES argues that scientists, either blinded or wilfully, have been ignoring widespread homosexual behaviour among animals.

MRS Patrick Campbell once famously said that she didn't care what people did in the bedroom as long as they didn't frighten the horses. Now it turns out that no human sexual act has much prospect of startling our animal cousins. In his astounding book, Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity, Bruce Bagemihl shows that homosexuality is little short of ubiquitous in nature, and that no pattern of sexual behaviour, from cordial threesomes to lifelong commitment between individuals of the same sex, can safely be claimed for our own species alone.

Bagemihl draws on, and persuasively interprets, a vast quantity of data. So how is it that an activity so widespread in so many species could have remained unnoticed for so long? The explanation has disturbing implications for the entire scientific method, so often announced as value free, as if the values of the scientists making observations did not impinge on their project. The answers to the questions you ask are structured by the questions you don't think even need asking.

There are three ways in which trained observers can overlook a widespread activity: by not seeing it; by not noticing it; and by making it disappear from their results. Primary, secondary and tertiary invisibility, in descending order of defensibility.

Sexual behaviour can be physically elusive, particularly in marine animals and birds: there are still many species in which copulation of any kind has never been observed -- humpback whales, for instance.

Logically, they must copulate heterosexually, or there would be no whales to observe, but it takes open-mindedness, the sort that the empirical method promises more often than delivers, to acknowledge that there may be other unseen acts (one of the many startling photographs in the book shows "penis intertwining" between grey whales, the erect organs breaking the surface of the water). It should be basic information given to novice biologists, though, that there are species in which homosexual acts were observed before -- in the case of wild emus, 70 years before -- heterosexual congress was verified.

Homosexual behaviour can pass unnoticed if all sexual acts are posited to be heterosexual. When scientists studying a population of birds, for instance, assume that every mounter is male and every mountee female, every cranny of the habitat could be throbbing with same-sex couplings and they will be none the wiser. This lesson could have been learned long ago, on the basis of the study of a population of king penguins carried out at Edinburgh Zoo between 1915 and 1930.

Genders were assigned to the birds on the basis of their first round of shenanigans. As the penguins partied on, the observers were forced to rechristen Bertha Bertrand and Andrew Ann. It turned out that only one of the birds had been correctly identified. In a wild population, the errors might never have shown up ("That looks a lot like Andrew, but ... it can't be!"). Yet sexing by behaviour is still being used in the field.

It is tertiary invisibility that is the most sinister. So if a male giraffe merely sniffs a female's rear end, that is recorded as a sexual act, while if he sniffs another male's genitals, mounts him with an erect penis and ejaculates, then he is merely engaged in dominance behaviour. Bagemihl is eloquent about the wrongheadedness of the dominance argument.

What we need is a new paradigm of animal sexuality which doesn't insist, in the teeth of the evidence, that it's all to do with breeding. Bagemihl proposes a new model of evolution, which recognises that natural systems are driven as much by abundance and excess as by limitation. Perhaps he'll develop this in a later book.

© Mail & Guardian



From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 04 May 2003 04:15 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good ammo to use whenever someone says homosexuality is "unnatural".
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1204

posted 04 May 2003 04:22 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Kewl. But another thing to keep in mind is that this does no legitimize the argument that people are homosexual because they are "biologically hardwired" to be homosexual. Is all.
From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214

posted 05 May 2003 10:46 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I wouldn't be surprised if further study indicates what we find in human society, that if we view homosexuality and heterosexuality as "poles", there are a lot of people in between.

Some argue that exclusive heterosexuals and homosexuals might even be a minority.

I dunno.

The mystery may be in the way we approach this. We tend to shape the view by insisting all sexual behavior is related to putting your genes into the next generation.

One can even look at homosexuality this way, in terms of kin selection, and it fits a little bit. But not wholly.

I wonder if part of "survival of the fittest" has also been "survival of the horniest."

Maybe the orgasm has grown to be so powerful that it has taken on a life of its own, and creatures will seek it irrespective of it's original "intent"?

It's my current thinking that this behavior and many others comes to us for more than one evolutionary reason, and that they may be so subtle, or so burried in the unrecoverable past that we'll never know.

In the mean time, if it's safe, sane, consentual and it feels good......don't scare the horses.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
glennB
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3993

posted 05 May 2003 11:35 AM      Profile for glennB     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If anyone sees this as a morally relevant question anymore, I'd like to highlight out G.E. Moore's point. That you can't derive an "ought" from an "is". This roughly means that the way things are, whether in monkeys or in ants, CANNOT be used to argue for the way they ought to be. Especially in humans.

Let us recall rampant cannibalism among animals. Is that a valid justification for the behaviour in humans?

I am not taking a position either way on homosexuality. I am simply pointing out faulty argumentation.

G.


From: Canada | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Doug
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 44

posted 05 May 2003 12:00 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree - the "naturalness" of something isn't grounds for its desirability, though a lot of people make that mistake. They'll figure it out once someone markets "all natural" nightshade herbal tea.
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214

posted 05 May 2003 12:25 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think that's what a lot of people miss. Whatever behaviors are "evolutionary", we have a manual overide option-- reason. Sometimes it's hard to tell, and easy to trick ourselves into thinking we're using it when we're not, but it's there, making, for me anyway, the ideas of what may be the evolutionary roots of a given behavior an esoteric, if at times interesting, parlour game.
From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca