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Author Topic: Saul Alinsky and Babbler's attitudes
jrootham
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 838

posted 24 August 2008 08:01 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just reread "Reveille for Radicals". Here is a quote from the afterword of the 1969 edition.

quote:
In the world as it is, man moves primarily because of self interest.

In the world as it is, the right things are usually done for the wrong reasons, and vice versa.

In the world as it is, constructive actions have been reactions to a threat.

In the world as it is, a value judgement is rarely, if ever, made on the basis of what is best. ... Decisions are made on the criteria of alternatives.

In the world as it is, "compromise" is not an ugly but a noble word.

In the world as it is, what you call morality is to a significant degree a rationalization of the position you occupy in the power pattern at a particular time.

In the world as it is, one must begin from where one is.


I'd say this is very useful if you actually want to get something done. There seem to be some Babblers who attempt to reject this reality.

The other thing he focuses on is the requirement for real democracy. In part this means not dictating solutions to people, and in part it means any effective change organization will have to include middle class members in order to get to a majority position.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 24 August 2008 09:14 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for the reminder jrootham, and this is a smippet from a great sermon about Alinsky:

quote:
....he dismissed conservatives by saying, "time itself will take care of them." His faith was in the people...Think of your senses, Alinsky taught. If you've got power, then parade it so your enemy can see it. If you've got numbers but no power, think of your ears and make a lot of noise. And if you've got no power and no numbers, the least you can do is make a stink!

That this threat was taken seriously is indicative of what Alinsky was capable of, and illustrates several of Alinsky's rules: First, power is what the enemy thinks you have. Second, Never go outside the experience of your people but always go outside the experience of your enemy. Third, a threat is more terrifying than the thing itself. And fourth, A good tactic is one your people enjoy. Alinsky's people couldn't stop laughing for weeks.

It was on account of his principle 'never to go outside the experience of the people' that Alinsky never argued morality with religious people. "Christianity and Judeo-Christianity is outside the experience of organized religion," he argued - and he cited the example of a man who gave away his life's savings to emulate St. Francis. "He was arrested by a Christian police officer, driven to Bellevue by a Christian ambulance doctor, and pronounced non compos mentis by a Christian psychiatrist. Christianity is beyond the experience of a Christian-professing-but-not-practicing population." Talk to them instead, he said, about power.


http://www.uubedford.org/sermons/alinsky.htm


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
triciamarie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12970

posted 25 August 2008 04:54 AM      Profile for triciamarie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I love this guy. So for example, when he said "make a stink", he meant literally; the example I recall was feeding some flatulence-inducing food to a bunch of guys from the community, then sending them on cheap tickets to the ballet or something, where nature took its course during the performance -- a pungent reminder to all the socialites in attendance about how much havoc these oppressed people could wreak on their theatre season if justice was not done.

The main issue I have with Alinsky however, is the same problem I have with most adult educators: that sneaky way they have of asking questions in order to elicit a pre-determined response. As far as I could tell he did this with his students as well as the community groups he worked with. I think it's a lot more honest to say, "in my experience this is what has worked", rather than try and make it seem like the facilitator's preferred solution just happened to arise from someone in the community.


From: gwelf | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 28 August 2008 07:00 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sometimes getting someone to think of the answer him or herself is a more powerful learning tool than simply giving them the answer.

I've found this to be true academically and personally.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
triciamarie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12970

posted 30 August 2008 06:12 AM      Profile for triciamarie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I can see a role for this technique in formal academics to the extent that what is being taught, or inculcated, is the canon of the discipline; the teacher or professor is a recognized expert; and the students don't have much of their own to contribute. But that's often not the case in adult learning situations (if it is even with younger folks) and it's certainly not appropriate in community development -- where the overarching goal should be to support independence.

I guess it's another example of the same whatever-works, ends-justifies-the-means, relative value ethos evident throughout Alinsky's work, as referenced in the opening post. But this condescending, patriarchal orientation is the deal-breaker for me although I still love reading his stuff.


From: gwelf | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
jester
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11798

posted 30 August 2008 06:30 AM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I'd say this is very useful if you actually want to get something done. There seem to be some Babblers who attempt to reject this reality.


Thanks for the topic. A must read book. Could you expand on your quote above?


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged

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