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Author Topic: Canadian Progressives and the Far Right
Mc'lovin
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posted 08 November 2008 11:08 AM      Profile for Mc'lovin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Both have a hard time thinking of anything good to say about Canada, Obama.

Both love to defend religion(selectively of course)

Both judge people by their skin appearance

Both insult and consider anyone with an opposing view - not just different, not even just unacceptable but an enemy

Both have B & W, Good vs Evil, with us or against us, all or nothing view on many if not all issues

Both love to use generalizations, an stereotypes, and tend to believe in secret conspiracies to explain event which contradict their world view.


Just putting out what I see - I still would rather hang with the left side more but am often disappointed with the above.


From: canada | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
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posted 08 November 2008 11:26 AM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Both love to use generalizations, an stereotypes, and tend to believe in secret conspiracies to explain event which contradict their world view.

Physician, heal thyself, etc.

From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 08 November 2008 11:31 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mc'lovin:
Just putting out what I see -

Ummm, professional firefighter?

quote:
I still would rather hang with the left side ...

They'll have to catch us first.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mc'lovin
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posted 08 November 2008 11:39 AM      Profile for Mc'lovin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quite right catchfire

but then I am one of the above myself


From: canada | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
genstrike
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posted 08 November 2008 11:39 AM      Profile for genstrike   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mc'lovin:
Both have a hard time thinking of anything good to say about Canada

And what exactly makes Canada so good? I don't like the government, and apart from that it is not much different than any other country. What exactly do you want me to say?

quote:
Originally posted by Mc'lovin:
Obama

When you find something that an anti-capitalist might find good about Obama, let me know.

quote:
Originally posted by Mc'lovin:
Both love to defend religion(selectively of course)

What? I don't love to defend religion, I am an atheist, I consider it the opiate of the masses, but I don't like it when people stir up hate against people just because of their religion, especially when they use it to justify imperialist wars and attacks on civil liberties.

quote:
Originally posted by Mc'lovin:
Both judge people by their skin appearance

What?

quote:
Originally posted by Mc'lovin:
Both insult and consider anyone with an opposing view - not just different, not even just unacceptable but an enemy

Everyone does this to some extent, and to some extent it is true in some arenas. I don't see how the left is any better or worse in this than anyone else, including the center

quote:
Originally posted by Mc'lovin:
Both have B & W, Good vs Evil, with us or against us, all or nothing view on many if not all issues

Again, I don't see how the left is any different from the right or the center on this.

quote:
Originally posted by Mc'lovin:
Both love to use generalizations, an stereotypes, and tend to believe in secret conspiracies to explain event which contradict their world view.

If you are referring to 9/11 conspiracies, in my experience only a small section of the left believe in those, and everyone else on the left can't stand it when they keep bringing them up. The rest of the radical left generally doesn't believe in conspiracies, but believes that there is a system (capitalism) at play here which does explain things, not just a few greedy people and assholes in secret rooms.


From: winnipeg | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 08 November 2008 11:51 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Both love to use generalizations

Isn't that what you're doing?

I actually have a lot good to say about Canada. Given all the places on earth where human consciousness has been deposited by whatever forces, we are quite fortunate. Unbelievably fortunate, really. But that good fortune accrues to us not because of anything we have done. There is a human being no less deserving than you being born right now into great depravity and hardship due to the misfortune of being birthed in Haiti or the Congo or Gaza. And I have to ask, because I live in this world of plenty that affords me the luxury to ponder such questions, what is Canada's relationship to the poor of this world? Why is it we can have so much and they so little? And the answer is always the same.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mc'lovin
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posted 08 November 2008 12:06 PM      Profile for Mc'lovin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Genstrike - yr responses for the most part prove my point

- why not be different or better than the rightwing?

question everything - especially yr own beliefs

Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.

Martin Luther King, Jr.

[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: Mc'lovin ]


From: canada | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
genstrike
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posted 08 November 2008 12:17 PM      Profile for genstrike   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mc'lovin:
Genstrike - yr responses for the most part prove my point

- why not be different or better than the rightwing?

question everything - especially yr own beliefs

Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.

Martin Luther King, Jr.

[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: Mc'lovin ]


Because politics is naturally a nasty business, especially when you are trying to get across a viewpoint that contains such things as class struggle and anti-capitalism.

How do I be "better than the right wing" in your eyes? Start praising political opponents instead of questioning them? Preface any criticism with Stephen Harper with a compliment to how good he looks in a sweater-vest?

And don't think I don't question things just because I am on the radical left. I do question things, and whenever I do, my beliefs make sense. That is why I believe them.

I find a lot of people on the center are the ones who don't question things, they just take the intellectually lazy way out and say "you're both wrong. The truth is always in the middle."


From: winnipeg | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged
Mc'lovin
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posted 08 November 2008 12:18 PM      Profile for Mc'lovin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
FM

Over course we did nothing to deserve our good fortune.

Must a man gouge out his eyes to empathize with the blind?

Is the idea to raise up people or bring others down?

of course from a materialist point of view, this gets confusing in terms of needs and desires.

What does a person need(anywhere on the planet) to feel satisfied? good luck answering that without judging or generalizing.


From: canada | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Mc'lovin
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posted 08 November 2008 12:32 PM      Profile for Mc'lovin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
genstrike

Why think so small? Stephen Harper's sweater?

I was thinking more along the lines the cultural, social and political nature of people all around the world. Starting with looking at everyone on a equal plain. I realize this is difficult


From: canada | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 08 November 2008 12:34 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mc'lovin:
FM

Over course we did nothing to deserve our good fortune.

Must a man gouge out his eyes to empathize with the blind?

Is the idea to raise up people or bring others down?

of course from a materialist point of view, this gets confusing in terms of needs and desires.

What does a person need(anywhere on the planet) to feel satisfied? good luck answering that without judging or generalizing.



Does the blind need our empathy?

Yes, it does get confusing from a materialist point of view. So here is a question for you to generalize on: If to raise the growing global population to our standard of material living we will require four more planet earths, where do we get them from?

[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
genstrike
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posted 08 November 2008 12:37 PM      Profile for genstrike   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mc'lovin:
genstrike

Why think so small? Stephen Harper's sweater?


All right, please explain to me what exactly disappoints you with me criticizing people like Stephen Harper. Do you want me to make sure I preface every criticism with praise?

quote:
Originally posted by Mc'lovin:
I was thinking more along the lines the cultural, social and political nature of people all around the world. Starting with looking at everyone on a equal plain. I realize this is difficult

Are you accusing myself and the left of racism? Or is it that we don't ignore the class differences which are central to society which is frustrating you?


From: winnipeg | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged
Mc'lovin
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posted 08 November 2008 01:05 PM      Profile for Mc'lovin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
genstrike

Of course Harper should be critized from the point of view that he is not some noble prince or the second coming of satan but a politician elected in our system as the party leader with the majority of seats at this time. It's actually quite simple.

FM

that's exactly my point - perhaps I wasn't clear

I dream of a day where no one on earth goes to bed hungry - but the big question is - is western growth and decadence the result of too much choice or natural human greed. Christmas is coming and most people I know don't really "need' anything but just about everyone wants something or wants to give something - does this make them bad people and are the really that different from anyone else or do they just have a choice.

So do you think we should take away choices?


From: canada | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Mc'lovin
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posted 08 November 2008 01:14 PM      Profile for Mc'lovin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't mean to assume you want to take away choice but what I meant is what is the solution? As I agree that while I enjoy a very modest lifestyle compared to the world's rich it is quite likely lavish compared to the worlds poorest and I think that even my lifestyle is not sustainable on a worldwide basis.
From: canada | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 08 November 2008 01:20 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I dream of a day where no one on earth goes to bed hungry - but the big question is - is western growth and decadence the result of too much choice or natural human greed. Christmas is coming and most people I know don't really "need' anything but just about everyone wants something or wants to give something - does this make them bad people and are the really that different from anyone else or do they just have a choice.

So do you think we should take away choices?



The solution is to transition from a competitive, consumer society where the rights of the investor class trump all, to a conservor society where the rights of investors are considered dead last.

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mc'lovin
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posted 08 November 2008 01:36 PM      Profile for Mc'lovin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
ok

I buy my food from money I earn being a very small but important cog in a large publicly traded company. Would I have to expect being laid off during this transition and forget about ever enjoying even the meager but comfortable lifestyle I've become accustomed to(and to be honest feel somewhat that I earned - finishing high school, pounding the pavement, night school, ect.)


From: canada | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 08 November 2008 01:42 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Do you enjoy being a cog in the machine?

Let's return back to where we started then. You obviously enjoy and want your material lifestyle brought to you courtesy of the global consumer capitalist model. But you also want, so you say, to raise all others to our standard of living. So, where do you get the three additional planet earths that will be needed?


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mc'lovin
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posted 08 November 2008 02:04 PM      Profile for Mc'lovin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I disappointed with yr response frankly.

No I don't "enjoy" being a cog but I like to eat. Do I enjoy my lifestlye? I'm very far from rich or even middle class for that matter but sure I enjoy it. I'm sure I could enjoy a much more modest or meager lifestyle as well, but yr smug assumption that I'm not ready to sacrifice anything turned me off at this point.

BTW how do you get an internet connection to yr log cabin at walden pond? let find the time to set me straight - what with growing yr own food and sewing yr own clothes. Jerk


From: canada | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 08 November 2008 02:30 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I buy my food from money I earn being a very small but important cog in a large publicly traded company.
It appears it's already being fed, so we don't have to...

From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 08 November 2008 02:37 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mc'lovin:
I disappointed with yr response frankly.

No I don't "enjoy" being a cog but I like to eat. Do I enjoy my lifestlye? I'm very far from rich or even middle class for that matter but sure I enjoy it. I'm sure I could enjoy a much more modest or meager lifestyle as well, but yr smug assumption that I'm not ready to sacrifice anything turned me off at this point.

BTW how do you get an internet connection to yr log cabin at walden pond? let find the time to set me straight - what with growing yr own food and sewing yr own clothes. Jerk



What is that sets you off exactly? I explained my circumstances when I said, "I live in this world of plenty that affords me the luxury to ponder such questions."

But you see, you're the one who says we must raise up all people while acknowledging the material considerations. So, I asked you a very legitimate question How do you go about rising the living standards of a growing global population to our own when that would require four earths?

Clearly, for your idea, we need three more planet earths. From whence do they come?


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mc'lovin
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posted 08 November 2008 02:39 PM      Profile for Mc'lovin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
wow - what a contribution - that needs to be etched in stone so it's wisdom can be read by future generation
From: canada | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 08 November 2008 02:46 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mc'lovin:
wow - what a contribution - that needs to be etched in stone so it's wisdom can be read by future generation

If you have the time and inclination, I doubt rabble.ca would enforce copyright. But that doesn't answer my question. Would you like to try?

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mc'lovin
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posted 08 November 2008 02:54 PM      Profile for Mc'lovin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I never said we have to raise everyone to western levels and I never said I wouldn't be ready to sacrifice my own comfort but whatever. I'm feeling attacked which I guess is what I expected but ... so long
From: canada | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged

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