quote:

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NDP Newbie: Like John Paul II, the next Pope should be a Catholic, charismatic, a friend of Western colonial powers, a right-wing thug, a social conservative, and an enemy of liberty, secularism, and democracy.

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[ 01 April 2005: Message edited by: CourtneyGQuinn ]

must....die.....soooooonn....musssst.....di.e......withinnnn......sevennn.....minutes......

Hilarius. I'll be here all week. Matinee on Sunday.

Simplicius. Should get along well with W.

Urban. Bad news for the red states.

Innocent. Yeah tell it to the judge.

Pius. Well duh.

[ 01 April 2005: Message edited by: JimmyBrogan ]

"that would be a little too sacreligious even for me"

---the most sacreligious joke i've ever heard was this...

"Why can't Jesus play hockey?...

..."He's always gets nailed to the boards"

I would think/hope Jesus has a sense of humor

[ 01 April 2005: Message edited by: CourtneyGQuinn ]

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Originally posted by JimmyBrogan:
I'm not so much interested in which wizened old reactionary will be the next pope, but on how he will style himself. My money's on John Paul III.

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Sure, tradition would suggest another John Paul. But I hope the new pope will send a message that the Catholic Church is capable of progress.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Oh man! And here I'd thought I'd heard just about every sacriligious joke going. Bad! Bad!

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Not quite...

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Pope John Paul II has named nearly every cardinal who will elect his successor, but that does not mean the next pontiff will be just like him.

The world's cardinals hold diverse and often conflicting views about what are the most pressing issues for the Roman Catholic Church and will likely seek out a leader with different qualities than John Paul's.

"The cardinals, when they come in the conclave, they follow their conscience and they see what's useful for the church today," said Belgian Cardinal Godfried Danneels, in a recent interview with The Associated Press. "There is not that kind of nepotism in the church — 'I appointed all the cardinals so there will be exactly my copy.' No. We are a bit more intelligent than that."

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Well, since Bono did't get the World Bank job, he ought to be available and he's Catholic. . .

[ 01 April 2005: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]

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Nominations for Pope, huh?

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Oscar Rodriguez Maradiaga (Honduras) 2.9/1
Dionigi Tettamanzi (Italy) 3.4/1
Francis Arinze (Nigeria) 4.8/1
Joseph Ratzinger (Germany) 6.4/1
Jorge Mario Bergoglio (Argentina) 11
Claudio Hummes (Brazil) 12.5/1
Jean-Marie Lustiger (France) 14
Count Christoph von Schoenborn (Austria) 25
Angelo Sodano (Italy) 29
Giovanni Battista Re (Italy) 29
Crescenzio Sepe (Italy) 37
Giacomo Biffi (Italy) 37
Ivan Dias (India) 41
Juan Luis Cipriani (Italy) 43
Cormac Murphy-O'Connor (Britain) 45
Jaime Lucas Ortega y Alamino (Cuba) 45
Tarcisio Bertone (Italy) 47
Ennio Antonelli (Italy) 54
Carlo Maria Martini (Italy) 64
Godfried Daneels (Belgium) 64
Dario Castrillion Hoyos (Colombia) 74
George Pell (Australia) 99

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Originally posted by CourtneyGQuinn:
robbie_dee---

that's funny...the "powers that be" seem to be latching onto Bono....the "rich reformist", as i like to call him....the question is...is he using the lefts cause to help the poor or help U2's record sales?

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How 'bout Sinead O'Connor? I think she was a Catholic priest at one point, although maybe not in the "official" Catholic church.

[ 01 April 2005: Message edited by: obscurantist ]

i didn't understand the meaning of your name until i read an article a few minutes ago...

"Pope Ganganelli abolished the Jesuits with a Papal Bull; the Jesuits call it a "brief". It is not a brief; it is in the Library of the Bulls, and it is called Dominic Ac Redemptor Nostor. That is the name of a bull. And when he abolished them, he abolished them forever—that they were not to talk about their abolition, that they were not to teach. He confiscated all of their wealth and land and property. For the most part, the Dominicans took it over, which is why the Dominicans had their penis cut off during the French Revolution. That’s what the Jacobins did to them. It was payback by the Jesuits: "You don’t dare take our property from us, boy. And you don’t dare take Inquisition from us." Jacobins killed nearly every Dominican in France."

He really is a practising Catholic, and nothing says "exemplary Catholic" like supporting European colonialism and being an altar boy for a fascist regime. ;-)

So Donald, Wen will you next be on Hu's manhood?

[ 01 April 2005: Message edited by: NDP Newbie ]

[ 01 April 2005: Message edited by: NDP Newbie ]

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Originally posted by NDP Newbie:
I stand by Donald Tsang:

He really is a practising Catholic, and nothing says "exemplary Catholic" like supporting European colonialism and being an altar boy for a fascist regime. ;-)

So Donald, Wen will you next be on Hu's "man"hood?

[ 01 April 2005: Message edited by: NDP Newbie ]

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Read all about it:

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So the Pope couldn’t make it out to Good Friday yesterday. He is described as “ailing” and “frail” but “still lucid.” At last the Pope’s one true weakness is revealed: weakness!

Your powers are weak, old man! Enfeebled by age, the Pope can no longer summon the sheer force of will needed to mind-control the Catholic Church or bring Ritual Jesus back from the dead every Easter. But Giblets can… and Giblets will, when he becomes the next Pope!

Oh, you’ll hear plenty of arguments for replacing this Pope with just another dumb ol’ regular Pope, or a super-efficient Robopope, or the unearthly tidal pull of the Moon Pope. All lies and dross! Only Giblets can complete the circle. Only Giblets can drag mankind to salvation as Pope Giblets the First! Behold the new Gibletsian papacy!

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Someone told me today that the Catholic church was complaining they didn't really have a lot of money.

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
I'd like to see Cardinal Rat get the job; he'd so completely piss everyone off that we'd see the Vatican for the irrelevant anchronism it really is.

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several cardinals are now publicly suggesting that the Pope, like all diocesan bishops, should be bound to retire at age 75. This would be an unprecedented change.

In an open letter published before the Pope's visit to Switzerland last June, theologian Xaver Pfister said the Pope should respect the normal retirement age for bishops, set by the Vatican at 75. "The media only talk about the Pope's health and no longer about what he says, which creates a credibility problem for himself and the papacy," he said. But the Bishop of Basel, Kurt Koch, said the timing of the letter was "tasteless and perfidious" and described the suggestion that the Pope should retire as "absurd."

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Four and a half years ago, the primate of Belgium, Cardinal Danneels spoke about the age of the retirement of bishops, established at 75, and the fact that this criterion might also be applied to Popes.

"The question will inevitably be posed in the same form to Popes. In the future, I think it will have to be like this. One won't be able to do otherwise."

Why, many ask, should the bishop of Rome be the sole exception to the requirement that bishops submit their resignations at age 75? When Paul VI instituted this rule in 1966, it shocked those imbued from their seminary days with the notion of “a priest forever."

Patriach Bartholomew I For Pope. Bring Unity to Catholics today!

[ 02 April 2005: Message edited by: Hawkins ]

You mean the position isn't hereditary?

Also I'm not well versed on this but I hear that the guy before JPII who lasted weeks only may have been offed by the church. I hear he was too radical. Might there any truth to this?

[ 02 April 2005: Message edited by: Vigilante ]

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Originally posted by Vigilante:
This whole institution should never have existed. Haysus was someone up against the Jewish astablishment similar to this one in his day.

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To paraphrase the Gospel of Thomas (notably not accepted by the RC church):

"The Kingdom of God is inside/within you (and all about you), not in buildings/mansions of wood and stone. (When I am gone) Split a piece of wood and I am there, lift the/a stone and you will find me."

As a Catholic, I can see this time as being very important to the billions of Catholics aroudn the world. While I did not see eye to eye with JP2 on many issues, namely his views on contraception and gay marraige, I can also see his positives..

Regardless, my two cents on a successor:

Cardinal Ouellet from Montreal is my pick.. French-Canadian and a very well-respected in Rome, well written too.

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Also I'm not well versed on this but I hear that the guy before JPII who lasted weeks only may have been offed by the church. I hear he was too radical. Might there any truth to this?

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There was suspicion that he was offed by the quasi-masonic P2 Lodge, a right-wing neo-fascist outfit that liked to diddle around with Italian politics. Supposedly, they wanted him out of the way because he was gonna clean up the Vatican bank, which had basically become a money-laundering operation for P2.

The allegation was made in David Yallop's book In God's Name. Yallop thought it suspicious that no autopsy was performed on the Pope. Other investigators disputed the allegation, saying that Yallop exagerrated the extent of JPI's banking reforms, and pointing out that autopsies usually aren't done on Popes. One investigator(possibly hired by the Vatican, if I recall) noted that following his ascension to the papacy, JPI had expressed doubts about his fitness for the papacy and had ceased taking his heart medication.

Another interesting thing about that Pope was that he wrote a series of letters to fictional characters, most notably Pinnochio. Apparently, he wrote a few to Jesus as well, but only after some fellow Cardinals criticized him for writing to Pinnochio but not to Jesus.

[ 02 April 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]

There's no people like church people
They pray when they are low

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Originally posted by Hailey:
His body is not even cold. It seems entirely crass.

I also do not believe it is the business of persons who are not faithful to the Magistrium (including myself) who the Pope is. He is the leader of faithful RC's. He's not a secular or non-RCleader.

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Hailey, there is a massive organization spread across the globe that was led by this man. This man sat at the centre, like a loathesome spider in its web, scheming his malicious, hateful plans, along with his cadré of deranged lieutenants, and directing his wretched schemes against people in countries all over the planet.

The Vatican has an "observer status" seat at the UN. Karol Wojtyla had the ear of heads of state from around the world (and was not shy to use whatever influence he had, both at the UN and with the heads of state).

As far as the LGBT community goes, he was kind of like our own version of bin Laden, leading a type of al-Quaida that is even older, massively wealthier, and with a history of violence and repression that would make a fundamentalist Muslium terrorist blush.

As far as I'm concerned, he was cold (as in blooded) from the moment he became Terrorist-in-Chief to my community. Yer darned right it's "our business", faithful to the mumbo-jumbo of "the Magistrium" or not.

Good point about the Vatican's observer status at the UN. However:

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The Vatican has an "observer status" seat at the UN. Karol Wojtyla had the ear of heads of state from around the world (and was not shy to use whatever influence he had, both at the UN and with the heads of state).

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Who was forcing those heads of state to listen to the Pope? Their Catholic electorates? Okay, but then who forces those voters to listen to the Pope?

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And hey all we need is one closet liberal to make it to the papacy and voila we would have a rapidly reforming church.

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Originally posted by davidt:
the funny thing about ratzinger is that his early works are quite liberal and progressive, then he turned more and more into a right wing nutbar.

ndp newbie. if your going to put up a hong konger for pope why donald and not bishop zen (like him or not he is one of the only people here in hong kong who has the nerve to speak up against the chinese overlords (except for my main man long hair))

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Originally posted by Hephaestion:

Or another suddenly and "mysteriously" dead pope.

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I think I know what you mean, the pope just prior to Jean Paul 2nd (can't remember the name) who was expected to be more liberal, but died after only a few months. I remember hearing suspicions like this and at the time thought it was just "grassy knoll thinking".

I am optimistic about one thing. Given that this pope was about as conservative on "social issues" as one could be, the odds would seem to favour someone more open, at least on the ordination of women and perhaps birth control, though probably not on abortion. That will tend to undermine the Bush Republicans in time for the 2006 mid-term elections.

But what I am worried about is that this papal succession election is coming right on top of our BC provincial election. I can just see all our BC Liberal types out there quietely whispering words of encouragement to conservative Catholics one day and liberal Catholics the next. And you can pretty much figure that the entire religious vote, Cathololic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, etc., will all be in an major state of excitement and agitation over what comes next.

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Originally posted by Hephaestion:

Or another suddenly and "mysteriously" dead pope.

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I think I know what you mean, the pope just prior to Jean Paul 2nd (can't remember the name) who was expected to be more liberal, but died after only a few months. I remember hearing suspicions like this and at the time thought it was just "grassy knoll thinking".

I am optimistic about one thing. Given that this pope was about as conservative on "social issues" as one could be, the odds would seem to favour someone more open, at least on the ordination of women and perhaps birth control, though probably not on abortion. That will tend to undermine the Bush Republicans in time for the 2006 mid-term elections.

But what I am worried about is that this papal succession election is coming right on top of our BC provincial election. I can just see all our BC Liberal types out there quietely whispering words of encouragement to conservative Catholics one day and liberal Catholics the next. And you can pretty much figure that the entire religious vote, Cathololic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, etc., will all be in an major state of excitement and agitation over what comes next.

quote:

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:

I think I know what you mean, the pope just prior to Jean Paul 2nd (can't remember the name) who was expected to be more liberal, but died after only a few months. I remember hearing suspicions like this and at the time thought it was just "grassy knoll thinking".

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Originally posted by Steve:

That was Pope John Paul I. It was speculated that he was considering reforms to the Church's position on birth control. He was Pope for 33 days before he died, officially of a heart attack, but no autopsy was done. It has been speculated that Pope John Paul II took that name as a message to anyone that might have murdered John Paul I.

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Grassy knoll thinking indeed. Sometimes the real answer is the simple and obvious one. JP I had an unremarkable history as the Patriarch of Venice, where he was noted for his personal warmth, but could certainly never be called radical. There was no evidence he was going in any new direction on fundamental church issues. At the time of his death he was dealing with a letter admonishing the head of the Jesuits for getting too Liberal, a task that Paul VI had been working on just before he died. As far as the Vatican bank goes, it was a bit of an unpleasant mess, but the papacy had dealt with worse.

The Cardinals knew he had a bum ticker, but these are a bunch of guys who carry portable defibulators like the rest of us carry walkmen. It did come out after that he had not revealed to anyone outside of a small circle of friends that his heart was actually pretty bad. The Papacy is a stressful job.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
I was sure I was going to find you talking about how much better it would be if the Vatican used proportional representation to elect the new Pope.

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The Archbishop of Westminster's press secretary calls for electoral reform in the Vatican:

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It is a process . . that belongs to a pre-democratic age. The only electoral college is the College of Cardinals; they are appointed by the pope, and they elect his successor. . not even bishops have a say in the succession.

Some reformist Catholic groups would like to see greater participation of ordinary Catholics in the selection of bishops, and even in the election of the pope . ; but they count for very little.

The main expression of collegiality should be the bishops’ synods, which meet about every three or four years in Rome. . The fact that few people (even well-informed Catholics) know much about them, or what comes out of them, is an indication of how little impact they have made.

Bishops complain that under John Paul II they were treated like altar boys . ; restoring the bishops to their proper place in relation to the Curia will be one of their priorities in the conclave.

A further demand for reform is for greater participation in the selection of bishops by the local churches. . as late as 1829, of the 646 diocesan bishops in the Latin church, only twenty-four were directly appointed by Rome. Under Pope John Paul II there were 4,000 bishops, all appointed by the Vatican. Some mechanism for giving local churches a say in the appointment of their bishops is seen as key to the implementation of more effective collegiality.

There will be some cardinals in the conclave who will want to stick to the autocratic-centralist model, the church as a beacon on the hill in an uncertain world. But many cardinals who are gathering to elect the next pope believe that the pendulum has swung too far, and needs now to be reversed.

. . the battle over collegiality will go to the heart of the very idea of the church itself: how it relates to itself, and to the world. It will be a battle hidden from the gaze of onlookers; only those taking part will know of the fireworks that precede the white smoke.

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Originally posted by Michelle:

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The author of last week’s Catholic ruling on gay marriages and partnerships was a member of Hitler’s Youth in the Second World War, it has emerged.

According to reports over the weekend in The Sunday Times, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who wrote the guidance to Catholics and Catholic politicians that described gay relationships as “deviant and evil”, was a member of Hitler’s Youth in his home region of Bavaria, Germany.

Despite leaving the Nazis in 1945, Ratzinger is famed for maintaining harshly right wing ideals, and is nicknamed “the enforcer” in the Vatican City, the paper reported.

. . .

Ratzinger was part of Hitler’s Youth until 1945, when he deserted, claiming that Hitler was the Antichrist, the paper claims. He was held as a prisoner of war by American forces after the war, before making his way through the Catholic ranks.

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