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Author Topic: 13 things that do not make sense
Bobolink
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posted 18 March 2005 06:53 PM      Profile for Bobolink   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From the current issue of New Scientist:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18524911.600


From: Stirling, ON | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Nanuq
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posted 18 March 2005 07:51 PM      Profile for Nanuq   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There's no mystery as to why naloxone blocks the placebo effect. The body controls pain by producing endorphins, biochemical substances with the same chemical structure as opium. It's why morphine and heroin are such effective analgesics. It's been known for decades that naloxone counteracts endorphins. We were taught this when I was an undergraduate in the 1970s. So much for the first thing that doesn't make sense. Anyone want to take a crack at the others?
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
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posted 18 March 2005 08:01 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There's a lot of bullshit on that list. Things that are made to look worse than they are for the sake of sensationalism.

Number two: the so called horizon problem. Well, inflation has solved that. And inflationary models accurately predicted how the Universe's microwave background should look, which indicates that they're probably valid.

That Belfast homeopathy thing smells of hokum.

Dark matter is a mystery, but that accounts for about 25% of the mass of the universe. 5% is regular matter. The rest might be composed of the so called "dark energy". This ratio was predicted by inflationary theory by the way (it's the amount of mass necessary to get to the so called critical density of the Universe, which is needed for inflationary models to make sense). So if inflationary theory is wrong, this ratio doesn't apply and there goes the dark energy problem...

Anyway, that list stinks of bad scientific journalism...

[ 18 March 2005: Message edited by: Surferosad ]


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 18 March 2005 08:10 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I call BS on number three as well, since they mention only special relativity without bothering to mention that general relativity, y'know, applies in the real universe. Gravity still has an effect on really large length scales, which is what we figure these cosmic rays are behaving on. Also, the fact that they strike the upper atmosphere with on the order of a billion billion MeV strongly implies that relativistic effects occur on their masses, making it even more likely that gravity acts.

Therefore their claim that special relativity implies an isotropic nature of space is utterly useless.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bobolink
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posted 18 March 2005 09:14 PM      Profile for Bobolink   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nanuq:
There's no mystery as to why naloxone blocks the placebo effect. The body controls pain by producing endorphins, biochemical substances with the same chemical structure as opium. It's why morphine and heroin are such effective analgesics. It's been known for decades that naloxone counteracts endorphins. We were taught this when I was an undergraduate in the 1970s. So much for the first thing that doesn't make sense. Anyone want to take a crack at the others?

What doesn't make sense is why a placebo is as effective as morphine and why naloxone blocks a placebo.


From: Stirling, ON | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 18 March 2005 10:10 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I suspect it's like this: Both morphine and the placebo stimulate the release of endorphens. Naloxone blocks endorphens. Interesting, but not earth shattering.
From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
LeftRight
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posted 18 March 2005 10:31 PM      Profile for LeftRight   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Keenan:
I suspect it's like this: Both morphine and the placebo stimulate the release of endorphens. Naloxone blocks endorphens. Interesting, but not earth shattering.

It doesn't really explain placebo. Anticipation of pain I can accept, but not a false inference for an anticipated effect; the fact that I was lied to doesn't explain why it would work according to what the placebo is not. Perhaps I am infering a wish from the doctor and comply with the infered wish because of fear of authority; I do not want to displease the doctor.


From: Fraser Valley | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 19 March 2005 04:57 AM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Every time you think, do, or experience something, chemical changes occur in your brain. That some of those changes might fool your system into believing you've taken a drug that you haven't is interesting, but again, not earth-shattering.
From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 21 March 2005 05:56 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Well, inflation has solved that.

Correct me if I'm wrong but: It's solved it *in theory*. No one has come up with a mechanism for it, it's just calling upon a sequence of events of the Big Bang that would account for it.

Ie, inflation accounts for what we see, but no one can explain what could have caused the inflation.

Anyway, flame if you like, I'm off for a week-ish now so I won't be able to feel the heat.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 21 March 2005 10:19 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by aRoused:

Correct me if I'm wrong but: It's solved it *in theory*. No one has come up with a mechanism for it, it's just calling upon a sequence of events of the Big Bang that would account for it.

Ie, inflation accounts for what we see, but no one can explain what could have caused the inflation.

Anyway, flame if you like, I'm off for a week-ish now so I won't be able to feel the heat.


Actually, under certain very weird and specialized conditions gravity can be repulsive, and this can be proven in general relativity. Brian Greene explains this in his second book.

Don't ask me for the math 'cuz I don't know it.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
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posted 21 March 2005 01:11 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's a PDF presentation written in fairly general terms that I think explains how inflation might have worked (but you need to know a bit of physics to understand it; no math though).

www-ctp.mit.edu/~guth/iccs/iccs-guth.pdf

By the way, inflation in the early Universe is the best way physicists have found to explain the homogeneity and flatness of the the Universe. There other issues with the Big Bang model that inflation solves quite elegantly. With inflation, the big bang becomes something a lot less arbitrary and a lot simpler. The Big bang needs inflation to make sense!

Don't ask me about the math either: I'm a geologist, damn it, not a cosmologist.

[ 21 March 2005: Message edited by: Surferosad ]


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
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posted 21 March 2005 01:28 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Point 13 about cold fusion: they say that the DOE is taking an interest on it and that the experimental case is bullet proof. Well, according to the March Scientific American, that's we would call "spinning" if politicians were doing it. All that the DOE review said is that funding agencies should entertain proposals of cold fusion studies via the conventional route of peer review. And there still is no bullet proof evidence in favour of cold fusion.

[ 21 March 2005: Message edited by: Surferosad ]


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 21 March 2005 03:06 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So they're saying that inflation is a natural phenomenon in the universe ?. Interesting. Gravity, now that sounds too heavy.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 21 March 2005 04:13 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
On the question of our galaxies falling apart...

As I understand it, while gravity is most often associated with mass, it can also be a result of intense pressure (such as in the core of a white dwarf). So objects like black holes and white dwarves can have stronger gravity than what their mass would ordinarily dictate. Thus, a very strong black hole at the center of the galaxy could be the reason for the spin not matching our conventional projections...


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
maestro
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posted 21 March 2005 05:38 PM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Found this re: homeopathy and Madeleine Ennis
http://tinyurl.com/5gccq


quote:
Homeopathy: The Test - transcript

NARRATOR (NEIL PEARSON): This week Horizon is doing something completely different. For the first time we are conducting our own experiment. We are testing a form of medicine which could transform the world. Should the results be positive this man will have to give us $1m.

JAMES RANDI (Paranormal Investigator): Do the test, prove that it works and win a million dollars.

NARRATOR: But if the results are negative then millions of people, including some of the most famous and influential in the world, may have been wasting their money. The events that would lead to Horizon's million dollar challenge began with Professor Madeleine Ennis, a scientist who may have found the impossible.


Another case of 'working' homeopathy (Jacques Benveniste), and the results of a real test are examined in this show transcript.

However, on to Madeleine Ennis:

quote:
NARRATOR: Ennis knew that the memory of water breaks the laws the science, but she believed that a scientist should always be willing to investigate new ideas, so the sceptical Ennis ended up testing the central claim of homeopathy.

She performed an experiment almost identical to Benveniste's using the same kind of blood cell. Then she added a chemical, histamine, which had been diluted down to homeopathic levels.

The crucial question: would it have any effect on the cells? To find out she had to count the cells one by one to see whether they had been affected by the homeopathic water.

The results were mystifying. The homeopathic water couldn't have had a single molecule of histamine, yet it still had an effect on the cells.


They went on to set up very strict tests:

quote:
NARRATOR: So Horizon decided to take up Randi's challenge. We gathered experts from some of Britain's leading scientific institutions to help us repeat Ennis's experiments.

Under the most rigorous of conditions they'll see whether they can find any evidence for the memory of water. We brought James Randi over from the United States to witness the experiment and we came to the world's most august scientific institution, the Royal Society.

The Vice-President of the Society, Professor John Enderby, agreed to oversee the experiment for us.


The conclusion was:

quote:
NARRATOR: Rachel Pearson identifies the tubes with a C or D. If the memory of water is real each column should either have mostly Cs or mostly Ds. This would show that the homeopathic dilutions are having a real effect, different from ordinary water. There's a hint that the letters are starting to line up.

JOHN ENDERBY: Column 1 we've got 5 Cs and a D. Column 3 we've got 4 Cs and a D, so let's press on. 148 and 9, 28 and…

NARRATOR: But as more codes are read out the true result becomes clear: the Cs and Ds are completely mixed up. The results are just what you'd expect by chance. A statistical analysis confirms it. The homeopathic water hasn't had any effect.

PROF. MARTIN BLAND (St. George's Hospital Medical School): There's absolutely no evidence at all to say that there is any difference between the solution that started off as pure water and the solution that started off with the histamine.

JOHN ENDERBY: What this has convinced me is that water does not have a memory.

NARRATOR: So Horizon hasn't won the million dollars. It's another triumph for James Randi. His reputation and his money are safe, but even he admits this may not be the final word.


Well, the last statement is a little stretched...

quote:
JAMES RANDI: Further investigation needs to be done. This may sound a little strange coming from me, but if there is any possibility that there's a reality here I want to know about it, all of humanity wants to know about it.

NARRATOR: Homeopathy is back where it started without any credible scientific explanation. That won't stop millions of people putting their faith in it, but science is confident. Homeopathy is impossible.


[ 21 March 2005: Message edited by: maestro ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
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posted 21 March 2005 06:06 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gir Draxon:
On the question of our galaxies falling apart...

As I understand it, while gravity is most often associated with mass, it can also be a result of intense pressure (such as in the core of a white dwarf). So objects like black holes and white dwarves can have stronger gravity than what their mass would ordinarily dictate. Thus, a very strong black hole at the center of the galaxy could be the reason for the spin not matching our conventional projections...


Astronomers can observe how galactic cores behave, and they can infer the overall mass distribution in the centers of galaxies by looking at the stars that orbit the galactic nucleus. As far as I understand, the way galaxies spin cannot be explained by the gravitational effects of a central object (or several central objects), no matter how great their gravity is.
It seems that the only way they can make sense of galactic gravitational dynamics is if galaxies are surrounded by a relatively spherical halo of dark matter that is a few times bigger than the visible part of the galaxy. It seems, in other words, that visible matter only makes up a fraction of the total mass present in a galaxy.


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 22 March 2005 01:56 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cold fusion, just to throw a spanner into the works, is theoretically catalyzable at relatively low temperatures by mu mesons.

"Great!" y'all say.

What's the catch?

Two:

1. The mu meson is an unstable particle, half-life about 2.2 microseconds. So your cold fusion device would need to be next to a particle accelerator that could smash off these things from a beam and a target.
2. The bigger catch is this: The catalytic process goes by the weak interaction, whose cross-section is smaller than the strong or the electromagnetic. As a result, you need lots of mu mesons for what is comparatively, a piddly result.

The bottom line is, it's not economical or even practical and anyone who claims otherwise is full of crap.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 24 March 2005 05:11 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Bom dia from Portugal!
quote:
Astronomers can observe how galactic cores behave, and they can infer the overall mass distribution in the centers of galaxies by looking at the stars that orbit the galactic nucleus. As far as I understand, the way galaxies spin cannot be explained by the gravitational effects of a central object (or several central objects), no matter how great their gravity is.

Yes, that's exactly it. What it is, is, objects farther out in the galactic disk are rotating around the core too fast for their distance. A bit like if Pluto orbited the Sun in an Earth year instead of 200+ years. The dark matter acts to change the mass distribution of the galaxy (warning, lack of physics jargon ahead), so that the orbital period of the outer reaches makes sense from the standpoint of angular momentum (which follows the same conservation rules as linear momentum does).

Gir: micro black holes have actually been suggested as a possibility for 'dark matter', as have MACHOs (essentially Jupiter-sized 'planets' orbiting the Milky Way in a big cloud far out from the center).


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
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posted 24 March 2005 02:58 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As far as I know, MACHOS (massive cold halo objects is that it? I don't remember exactly) won't work if they're made of ordinary matter. Ordinary matter machos don't "jive" with the relative abundance of matter predicted by inflationary models.

Most physicists think that dark matter is something we don't know about, something "exotic".

Here's a list of candidates for galactic dark matter:

http://hepwww.rl.ac.uk/ukdmc/dark_matter/candidates.html

[ 24 March 2005: Message edited by: Surferosad ]


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 24 March 2005 06:18 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Another guy, Sadoulet from I forget where, gave an eminently forgettable presentation on WIMPs (Weakly Interacting Massive Particles) which were his candidate for dark matter. He bored the hell out of everyone and I booked out early to avoid premature somnolence.

The WIMP idea is one that I find valid, because things that interact via the weak interaction won't give off photons, just neutrinos. Thus, we'll never see them, but they'll be there.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CourtneyGQuinn
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posted 24 March 2005 09:08 PM      Profile for CourtneyGQuinn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've been thinking about physics alot lately (amoung other things ). Let me summon up what I think to be true...

Stars everywhere act according to the same principals. Nucelosynthesis in the core of a star squashes/fuses hydrogen into helium, lithium, oxygen , nitrogen....all the way up to iron. Once the iron stage is reached the amount of energy pulsating from the core of the star can't "hold back" the massive weight of hydrogen encompassing said core (A star's core dynamics are also influenced by factors from outside the heliopause(edge of solar system)...which may influence sunspots (influence el nino?)). Depending upon the gravity of the hygrogen (mostly) surronding the star...a supernovae will occur...which might turn into a white dwarf...or a neutron star/pulsar...or perhaps a black hole. "brown dwarfs" -like jupiter- have alot of hydrogen but not enough for nucleosynthesis

Time/space frequencies of particles/waves operate at radio, microwave, infrared, visible (ROYGBIV), ultraviolet, xray and gammaray cycles. There are also quark frequencies and levels.

dark matter (unexplained weight of universe) might be accounted for with quite, benign "chunks" of neutral neutrons. Most of these "chunks" of neutral neutrons were probably created in the early universe after the big bang (and influence red shift). The amount of energy potential in neutron formations might allow for tremendous information transfer and storage (heaven?). There might be a metaphysical battle at work in the universe between positive and negative energy forces. Black holes might destroy souls/metaphysical self. The slightest change in positive-negative balance had- and will have- a profound effect upon big bang/crunch. "God" existed for a brief instant after a previous big crunch and before the current big bang. "God" was all our souls-(living and dead, human and not)- in a single universal metaphysical entity for a split second. Free-will influences resurection/reincarnation and the positive/negative universal energy balance

Basically there are four forces at work in the universe:
Electromagnetism
Gravity
Strong nuclear force (quark influence)
Weak nuclear force (radioactivity)

The intersection of these four forces would lead to a grand unified theory. The forces influence the big/astro (clusters/galaxies/stars) and the small/nuclear/quantum (photons/electron/quarks)
and the meta/soul/"God"

We were "God" and we are "God".


From: Winnipeg | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
CourtneyGQuinn
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posted 24 March 2005 09:34 PM      Profile for CourtneyGQuinn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
1 more thing before i head to bed...

Energy is propagating and matter is confined propagating energy. And actually, even the path of energy that's "freely" propagating- (rather then confined to atom/molecule/star/galaxy/cluster)- is also somewhat confined and determined.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
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posted 25 March 2005 12:01 AM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CourtneyGQuinn = Forum Observer?
From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CourtneyGQuinn
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posted 26 March 2005 11:48 AM      Profile for CourtneyGQuinn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Surferosad---

Well..."the nature of an object changes as it's being oberserved"...does the nature of a forum/member also change as it's being oberved? (No...I'm not the member "Forum Observer")


From: Winnipeg | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
CourtneyGQuinn
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posted 26 March 2005 01:38 PM      Profile for CourtneyGQuinn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What if "God" is simply the transfer and holding of information via quark gluon plasma? What if there are 3 different levels/colors of "Godliness" and knowingness?
From: Winnipeg | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
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posted 26 March 2005 02:17 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CourtneyGQuinn:
What if "God" is simply the transfer and holding of information via quark gluon plasma? What if there are 3 different levels/colors of "Godliness" and knowingness?

I don't know what you have been smoking, but I suggest you stop smoking it.


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CourtneyGQuinn
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posted 26 March 2005 04:02 PM      Profile for CourtneyGQuinn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
well, i have been inhaling alot of information thats causing my neurons to smoke
From: Winnipeg | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged

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