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How and when did life begin? Ken Ham wants you to find the answer in his $25 million Boone County creation museum

By John Johnston
Enquirer staff writer

PETERSBURG - Ken Ham wants to save your soul.

He's so bent on that mission that he has spent 11 years in Northern Kentucky creating a museum to answer one of the most debated questions of our time:

When and how did life begin?

Soon, visitors to Ham's still-unfinished Creation Museum will experience his view: that God created the world in six, 24-hour days on a planet just 6,000 years old. This literal interpretation of the Bible runs counter to accepted scientific theory, which says Earth and its life forms evolved over billions of years.

Undaunted by considerable opponents, Ham's Answers in Genesis ministry is building a $25 million monument to creationism. The largest museum of its kind in the world, it hopes to draw 600,000 people from the Midwest and beyond in its first year.

"When that museum is finished, it's going to be Cincinnati's No. 1 tourist attraction," says the Rev. Jerry Falwell, nationally known Baptist evangelist and chancellor of Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va.

"It's going to be a mini-Disney World."

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Read it here.

[ 22 May 2005: Message edited by: Snuckles ]

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Among other things, he believes that:

Earth is about 6,000 years old, a figure arrived at by tracing the biblical genealogies, and not 4.5 billion years, as mainstream scientists say.

The Grand Canyon was formed not by erosion over millions of years, but by floodwaters in a matter of days or weeks.

Dinosaurs and man once co-existed, and dozens of the creatures - including T-rex - were passengers on the ark built by Noah.

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What's amazing about this stuff is that it doesn't just overturn evolution. Geology is no good, either, just another wrong theory. Same for physics, apparently.

One of the hundred bases upon which the age of the world estimate rests is that certain radioactive materials turn into something else as they eject electrons. But their half-lives do not fit into the Biblical schema!

But if the chemistry of radioactive materials is wrong, then one has to wonder: does e really equal mc squared? If it doesn't, we are in trouble.

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Originally posted by skdadl:
I see only one dinosaur (in that photo). Where is the other dinosaur?

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Sorry 'bout that skdadl. My display is kind of dark, and I assumed that green patch directly to the left of dino's head was another dinosaur.

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The Grand Canyon was formed not by erosion over millions of years, but by floodwaters in a matter of days or weeks.

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How absurd! How can either side expect us to believe such nonsensical theories?

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Originally posted by brebis noire:
That dinosaur looks strangely like a pit bull with a fat tail and a small head.

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So I don't really see why people care so much.

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At lesast partly because if you can convince yourself the world is only 6000 years old, you can convince yourself of anything.

However, I don't care what people believe, except that they have a habit of trying to insert their beliefs into the science curriculum.

This is not limited to the US. A few years ago the fight took place in the Abbotsford school district. The local creationists fought a determined battle to have creationism mentioned in science courses. Fortunately, they lost that battle, but they never give up.

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So I don't really see why people care so much.

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Your friend may be "nice". She is also extremely dangerous.

Believing in the authority of the Bible means believing that women may be killed if they are not virgins on their wedding day; it means that
gays should be condemned.

It means that a two-thousand year-old social organization is given privileged authority over the society which exists today.

This is the ideology of Al Quaeda; the Koran is always right. The Koran thumpers and the Bible thumpers have much more in common that they know.

Thanks, but I'd prefer my children knowing something about how the world actually operates, why medicine works to reduce pain and suffering, and what might be done to increase comfort in this world.

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Originally posted by jeff house:

Your friend may be "nice". She is also extremely dangerous.

Believing in the authority of the Bible means believing that women may be killed if they are not virgins on their wedding day; it means that
gays should be condemned.

It means that a two-thousand year-old social organization is given privileged authority over the society which exists today.

This is the ideology of Al Quaeda; the Koran is always right. The Koran thumpers and the Bible thumpers have much more in common that they know.

Thanks, but I'd prefer my children knowing something about how the world actually operates, why medicine works to reduce pain and suffering, and what might be done to increase comfort in this world.

I'm not interested in the pie in the sky when I die.

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Nice to know how my friend is a dangerous fanatic, ready to kill people at the drop of a hat. I guess I should stay away from her. Never know when I might violate some law, and then she'll stone me.

Next time you cast judgement on someone you don't know, try not to make a fool of youself. She has no intention of changing the school cirriculum, or anything of that matter. Blanket generalisations, and such Christianophobia, would be suddenly condemned if it were anyone but Christians.

I thought this was supposed to be a progressive message board. And yet, I find my evangelical friends more open-minded than some people here.

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Originally posted by Volrath50:
I thought this was supposed to be a progressive message board. And yet, I find my evangelical friends more open-minded than some people here.

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Originally posted by Volrath50:
I really don't care what people think about the beginning of the world, or how they express that. There is far too much division and hatred over a subject that isn't all that important in the whole realm of things.

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Originally posted by Volrath50:
Nice to know how my friend is a dangerous fanatic, ready to kill people at the drop of a hat. I guess I should stay away from her. Never know when I might violate some law, and then she'll stone me.

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It is nice to know young sir that, as a intolerant Diest, your time amongst us will be forgotten ever so quickly. Perhaps some life experience will help you with your pesky reality.

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Next time you cast judgement on someone you don't know, try not to make a fool of youself.

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Next time you cast the judgement of fool upon someone, perhaps you should be looking in the mirror to do it?

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She has no intention of changing the school cirriculum, or anything of that matter. Blanket generalisations, and such Christianophobia, would be suddenly condemned if it were anyone but Christians.

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Uh, that would be a big NO, the so called Christian fundamentalists are trying to change school curriculum. Example creation of 6000 years old. Women/girls are subservient to men/boys

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I thought this was supposed to be a progressive message board. And yet, I find my evangelical friends more open-minded than some people here.

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I thought you were supposed to be a progressive person, and yet I find myself looking for evidence of it, or just even evidence of looking beyond the surface of things.

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And before you go assuming even more things, I'm a Deist.

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Yes, so you have said repeatedly. What does it mean to you?

[ 22 May 2005: Message edited by: remind ]

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Nice to know how my friend is a dangerous fanatic, ready to kill people at the drop of a hat. I guess I should stay away from her.

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Your friend is dangerous in an abstract way. People who do not use reason and logic, but rather
bow before some "sacred" book, are easily mobilized by fanatics.

Perhaps you have heard of this.

Your original question was why we care so much. It is because we can imagine a society in which all questions are decided by Jerry Falwell or Stockwell Day.

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Originally posted by remind:

Yes, so you have said repeatedly. What does it mean to you?

[ 22 May 2005: Message edited by: remind ]

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I believe that God, Gods, or some force created the laws of physics, caused the Big Bang, and then stepped back and watched everything happen, and hasn't intervened since.

And my friend, for instance, went through the evolution portion of our history class without once complaining. She just didn't believe what was being taught. Is that really so wrong.

I really need to get out of these discussions. They probably do give the wrong idea about who I am. I just really hate to see people being put down here for their beliefs.

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And my friend, for instance, went through the evolution portion of our history class without once complaining. She just didn't believe what was being taught. Is that really so wrong.

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Did your friend bring the same thinking to mathematics? Did she just decide that 2 + 2 did not actually equal 4, but of course didn't complain about it?

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And my friend, for instance, went through the evolution portion of our history class without once complaining. She just didn't believe what was being taught. Is that really so wrong.

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Originally posted by Tape_342:

They teach evolution in History nowadays? I must be getting old. Back in my day we called it Biology.

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Most things from back in your day are now taught in History class.

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Originally posted by RealityBites:
[QB]Most things from back in your day are now taught in History class.
[QB]

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Originally posted by Michelle:
"Christianophobia" - give me a fucking break.

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Normally I wouldn't use such terms, but honestly.

"Your friend is dangerous."

How am I supposed to take this. She is like Ned Flanders. Have you ever had your friends called dangerous by someone who doesn't know them in the least? It's not fun.

The only thing that comment was based on was her religion. It's just plain intolerant. Imangine if someone had bashed Muslims like that...

[ 23 May 2005: Message edited by: Volrath50 ]

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Originally posted by Anchoress:
OK, I'll bite: I think Muslim fundamentalists are dangerous.

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Originally posted by Volrath50:
Yes, but the average Muslim is not.

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And please, don't try to pretend that we were discussing Christians, or Muslims, or Jews either.

We were discussing people who prefer the Bible to science, and organize their lives to follow outdated dictates written by long-dead "prophets."

This thing's been in the local news for several years now...the fact that he's been able to raise so much money ($25 million!) shows how well-organized and funded the creationist lobby has become. This museum isn't about nice people who just happen to disagree with evolution, it is about a politically-powerful and well-organized minority who do in fact want to force their religious views on others.

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Originally posted by NN:
Guys, how much does anyone here know about evolution?

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If you're just throwing this question out to the lions, I'd answer that I studied evolutionary-based biology at college and university. Nobody here is arguing as a paleontologist, but I'd venture that most babblers' reading skills would enable them to easily understand university-level biology or the writings of Stephen Jay Gould, for example.

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Originally posted by NN:
I ask because I think that the more someone knows about both biology (especially its complexity) and the theory of evolution, the LESS likely they are to believe the latter (in particular macroevolution).

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I'm studying physiology and pharmacology, and I tend to find that the opposite is true. People with no background in science are llikely to look at two different animals, say a bear and a person, and figure that there's no way that the one could be related to the other.

But when you take apart a bear to see how it works, what you find is that it has a lot more in common with your body than the differences.

Organ and sensory systems function nearly identically, skeletal structures are beautiful in their similarity, even the genetic code to build all these structures reveals only slight modifications in its elaborate chemical blueprint.

Any self-respecting scientist or individual with the personal desire to investigate will discover that the evidence for macroevolution is overwhelming.

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I just really hate to see people being put down here for their beliefs.

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Why care? If it's a belief, surely the person holding it can ignore any ridicule as they are secure in their belief. I mean I get irritated with some religous types when they pityingly offer to pray for me or question wether I can have any moral compass. But it doesn't hurt my feelings or shake my atheism. All it does is show me who i am dealing with. I get irritated because they can't stop shoving their fairytales down my throat not because I can't handle questioning my lack of faith. Beliefs and opinions are fair game. Race, sexuality, gender, not so much.

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I guess I should probably try to contribute to some thread where I do agree with the dominant groupthink. Then I can just repeat what someone else has said and get patted on the back...

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Originally posted by Bobolink:
Therefore there is no need for research on any topic.

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The fact is, we can describe the world without God. This doesn't "diminish the splendour" unless you make it. Religious people need not feel compelled to dichotomize the issue this way.

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Originally posted by paxamillion:

Just for the sake of debate, why did Newton do physics then? I believe he was a Christian.

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Originally posted by cabana me banana:

You can't argue "His splendour" using reason, you just have to believe it, that's the way it is.

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Oh but God's splendour CAN be argued with reason. Just look at the diversity and complexity of the natural world...

Science does not detract from the beauty of nature any more than knowing the chemistry behind pigments makes a painting less of a masterpiece.

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I believe he was a Christian.

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Originally posted by NN:
No bud, right now I'm studying University Biology as a major and (despite my admitted personal bias) I'm pretty convinced (and I think reasonably so) that Macroevolution is a highly improbable explanation for life, especially given its high level of complexity.

Contrarian in a nutshell, I think that what is used as fossil evidence for macroevolution is simply a flawed interpretation of the data based on holding a flawed theory as fact; as to the experiments, I'm pretty sure they establish microevolution (change within species) and not macroevolution (change from species to species). Before I go on, I'll outline why I think the theory is flawed but I'd like to take time to just refresh myself. I'll be back in about an hour (please note: this is a shared computer so I may not get to be back at the time I want to) . But I will post a reply.

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Sorry, but this sounds like a pretty ignorant statement. It makes it hard to believe that you are actually studying biology. I've often come across that statement when discussing evolution with believers in ID...

"Evolutionary biologists have written extensively about how natural selection could produce new species. For instance, in the model called allopatry, developed by Ernst Mayr of Harvard University, if a population of organisms were isolated from the rest of its species by geographical boundaries, it might be subjected to different selective pressures. Changes would accumulate in the isolated population. If those changes became so significant that the splinter group could not or routinely would not breed with the original stock, then the splinter group would be reproductively isolated and on its way toward becoming a new species.

Also, the scientific literature does contain reports of apparent speciation events in plants, insects and worms. In most of these experiments, researchers subjected organisms to various types of selection--for anatomical differences, mating behaviors, habitat preferences and other traits--and found that they had created populations of organisms that did not breed with outsiders. For example, William R. Rice of the University of New Mexico and George W. Salt of the University of California at Davis demonstrated that if they sorted a group of fruit flies by their preference for certain environments and bred those flies separately over 35 generations, the resulting flies would refuse to breed with those from a very different environment."

I suggest you spend some time here:

The obvious question "Who made this God" exposes the reality that "God" does not explain anything; you quickly face infinite regress.

So, when talking with creationists who can think
(a smallish group) I always try to have them explain to me what alternative explains any alleged "gaps" in the fossil record. Same with their other nitpicking about evolution.

Which usually leads to, "Do YOU believe it, Mom?" I either say, "I don't know," or "No, not really, honey," depending on how I'm feeling. Then he usually responds, "Well, I believe it." And I say, "That's okay."

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Originally posted by Michelle:
My son is being indoctrinated (not by me!) at church

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A handy way to show the difference between Bible stories and reality is in 1 Kings 7:23 and in 2 Chronicles 4:2:

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ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass . . ; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
I didn't realize how difficult it would be to try to find a balance between not undermining or ridiculing my son's faith, which he is being taught by his father and the church I used to attend, and teaching him that not everyone, including his mother, believes what his church believes.

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From what you've written, I think you're doing just fine. It can't be easy - I can relate somewhat, except that my husband doesn't take the kids to church very often. They protest too much against going and he figures that it's pretty much a lost cause since they're not getting any religious reinforcement at home from me. But on those rare moments when my son (7) asks me about Jesus or God - it's usually in the context of suffering or fear, such as "Jesus will help me not to have bad dreams, right mum?" then I pretty much respond as you do: "yes, or maybe tonight your guardian angel will be watching over you," - something along those lines, or else I just get him to talk as much and for as long as he wants to about anything at all. For me, the key is letting him know he can ask me about anything and everything, and I won't get upset about what he says or thinks.

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Originally posted by brebis noire:

Just about every Englishperson in the 1600s was a Christian. For one thing, atheism hadn't quite caught on yet, and for another, science was a totally different undertaking in that century. Newton was also very unorthodox in his Christian beliefs, as he didn't hold with the Nicene Creed and basically thought that Christianity went off track at that point (ie with the Trinitarian doctrine.)

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Ken Hamm is a literal business mastermind. Must be his australian blood, later trained in the Southern door to door salesman.

I saw him "lecture" at Brant Bible in Burlington, the bastion of Creationists north of the QEW. I was the invite of a wonderful Biology teacher who was devotely Evolutionist (and me do believe Atheist).

What a wonderful presentation Mr Hamm did make. The following are "kinds of dogs": Chihuahua, red fox, wolve, hyenna, australian dingo, etc. If you didn't know evolution has been appropriated by the creationists to explain how all those animals got on to the ark... Think in "kinds". You know, kinds of bears - Koala Bear, Panda Bear, Polar Bear - all from a male and female bear. And you say incest doesn't bring wonderful things.

Beyond that - evolution is like a wild jungle with thorny plants. I learned this from a wonderful graphic presentation from Hamm's powerpoint (which you as an educator could too buy for the low low price of $123.95!). I also learned that creationism is the big gas guzzling bulldozer which will uproot this ugly jungle and replace it with brown fields of open dirt, with no trees or other plant life left. Jungle = bad. Open field of soil = good.

Also evolution is the source of immorality, sin, and homosexuals. Creationism is the protector of morality, the way to avoid sin, and a homosexual preventor.

Finally, astronomy "is not a very accurate science". Want to know why? Because pesky light from far away places takes a long time to travel, and unfortunately astronomers are not very accurate when they say stars are billions or trillions of light years away. They don't know light bends around massive bodies, and that the earth is only 6000 years old.

All joking aside, I almost burst out laughing, when Mr Hamm was aksed to lead prayer. In a church packed to the brim of religious hopefulls, Mr Hamm rightly praised God, he asked God to bless everyone his message (creationism) and proceeded to lead a prayer to ask God to bless all those in attendence with the wisdom that they may buy some of his books which were being sold in the gym next door. A well placed elbow from my confused teacher saved me and now I have seen the light.

[ 24 May 2005: Message edited by: Hawkins ]

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Originally posted by Hawkins:
Just to bring us back:

What a wonderful presentation Mr Hamm did make. The following are "kinds of dogs": Chihuahua, red fox, wolve, hyenna, australian dingo, etc. If you didn't know evolution has been appropriated by the creationists to explain how all those animals got on to the ark... Think in "kinds". You know, kinds of bears - Koala Bear, Panda Bear, Polar Bear - all from a male and female bear. And you say incest doesn't bring wonderful things.

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The problem is the movement to teach it in school side by side with evolution or as a substitute for evolution. That movement has been pretty much put in its place over here, but in the US it is an extremely powerful force in American life which some state education systems have already sucuumbed to.

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

badger

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Originally posted by Contrarian:
On the other hand obviously Panda Bears are a cross between Polar Bears and Black Bears.

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