babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » in cahoots   » We want our taxes back!

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: We want our taxes back!
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 25 December 2005 09:21 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
... Back into our hospitals ... back into our schools ... back into our communities. Why are politicians promising so many tax cuts at a time when the Canadian government is failing to meet so many of its national responsibilities? It must upset you to hear them trying to bribe Canadians with their own money. But the fat cats of Bay Street demand their due. That's not what Canadians want. Given the "choice" of how to spend our money, we know that taxes are a very good investment.

Centre for Social Justice


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
muse
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11465

posted 25 December 2005 03:23 PM      Profile for muse        Edit/Delete Post
I for one will not be holding my breath waiting for some promised tax cuts.What one level of goverment giveth another will take away.Liberal election promises and their legion of faithful believers have a relationship similar to Lucy (holding the football) and Charlie Brown.
From: ottawa | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tory Spelling
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10528

posted 25 December 2005 06:56 PM      Profile for Tory Spelling   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
There are certainly examples of one level of government lowering taxes at the same time another is raising them.

Chretien Liberals started raising taxes in 1993. Then when Mike Harris became Premier of Ontario he started to cut taxes. Of course, Jean was continuing to raise federal taxes, so most Ontarians could not actually say their overall taxes fell, even though Mike did indeed cut the taxes for the people of Ontario.

During this time Municipal governments found it more and more difficult to raise the taxes they charged their citizens, since taxpayers across Canada were being sucked dry by a tax hungry federal government. Since people were accutely aware of the high taxes they were already paying and since municipal governments ability to tax is limited, they were struggling to find the funds they needed and wanted to run their shows.

With Stephen in charge and Dalton having promised not to raise taxes, although he broke that promise with the massive health tax he would be hard pressed to further increase taxes if he has a hope of being reelected, the overall tax burden of Ontarians should drop dramatically. So it would for many other Canadians.

That would be a really good thing. It's about time the long suffering Canadian taxpayer was rewarded with some meaningful tax relief.

What will undoubtedly follow from that is a very serious drop in the need in government support by hundreds of thousands of people. Thus putting governments at all levels in Canada in much better fiscal situations.

I can hardly wait!


From: Beverly Hills | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1245

posted 25 December 2005 07:58 PM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Jean was continuing to raise federal taxes

Worse than that. I actually remember coming home to be informed that the Feds had said they'd increase taxes to offset anything that Harris did because, if people got extra money via the tax cuts, "they'd just spend it". I couldn't believe anyone would have said anything that dumb until I saw a repeat on the news the next dat.


From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Red Albertan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9195

posted 25 December 2005 09:47 PM      Profile for Red Albertan        Edit/Delete Post
Tory Spelling. Maybe you will get extra money in your pocket under Harper. At least initially. The Conservative approach to taxation [and the necessary cut to tax-funded services resulting from such], could be compared to switching from buying in bulk at a wholesale outlet to shopping at a convenience store. When the government destroys the public services we all [used to] enjoy, it is true that taxation should go down, but the expenses out of your pocket will go up drastically.

What have corporate Liberal and Conservative Governments accomplished for Canadians?

Privatization of Petro Canada, thereby reducing "our" take as a people from our natural resources, and funneling the profits into a few hands.

Privatization of AGT [Alberta Government Telephones] - more like giving it away at a fraction of its value to a few hands - resulting in skyrocketing costs to Albertans for basic phone service.

Deregulation of Energy Pricing, resulting in hundreds, in some cases over a thousand dollars in additional costs to end-user Albertans, enriching a few friends with the resources that ought to belong to us all.

Financing of private for-profit clinics, stuffing our tax dollars into private pockets.

Privatizing Western Pacific Airlines and Air Canada.

Favoring Private Insurance companies over Public, even though Public Insurers like Saskatchewans are significantly cheaper, thereby costing drivers personally hundreds or over a thousand dollars more per year.

I am sure there are plenty more examples to show that with privatization and 'lower taxes' eventually come higher expenses at the individual level in the end. Why anyone would be so shortsighted and choose a for-profit system that serves only the rich over a system that provides services to everyone and is predictable, is beyond me.

It has been decades since either the Liberals or Conservatives have done anything... anything at all... for the middle class and below [except when they were forced to do so, like in the last budget, in order to stay in power]. They keep working to make the rich richer, and the middle class poorer, and yet the middle class keeps believing their lies without really thinking it through, and keeps voting for self-destruction.

When American-style healthcare finally arrives, there won't be any way of going back to Universal Medicare. It took a big fight to get there in the first place, and you can't easily undo privatization, unless you're willing to sink the country into a huge debt to buy everything back with a large profit margin. In short: You get cancer - and the odds are pretty 'good' you will - you'll end up selling your home to pay for your treatment. Our healthcare system has been sabotaged. It's not broken. It has been broken on purpose, first by Paul Martin's cuts to federal health transfers in the 90's, and then by individual Premiers like Ralph Klein, just so they can say: See? It's broken. We need private for-profit clinics and hospitals. But yea, I realize I am speaking into the wind and to deaf ears.


From: the world is my church, to do good is my religion | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tory Spelling
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10528

posted 25 December 2005 10:49 PM      Profile for Tory Spelling   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Worse than that. I actually remember coming home to be informed that the Feds had said they'd increase taxes to offset anything that Harris did because, if people got extra money via the tax cuts, "they'd just spend it". I couldn't believe anyone would have said anything that dumb until I saw a repeat on the news the next dat.


It's the 'beer and popcorn' mentality of the Liberals in particular and the left in general. We know best how to spend your money.

Blah Blah Blah Blah.


From: Beverly Hills | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3322

posted 25 December 2005 11:19 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If people knew best how to spend their own money, there would be no such thing as Walmart, Dollar stores, Harley Davidsons, Hummers, or Celine Dion. Since such things regrettably exist, it is clear people don't have any clue how to best spend their money. The worst thing about the beer and popcorn quote is that it is true.
From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1245

posted 25 December 2005 11:40 PM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If people knew best how to spend their own money, there would be no such thing as Walmart, Dollar stores, Harley Davidsons, Hummers, or Celine Dion. Since such things regrettably exist, it is clear people don't have any clue how to best spend their money.

Jingles,

You've just made the point. Clearly people don't know how to spend their money but you do. If not you as an individual there is apparently some collective you out there that does.


From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 26 December 2005 12:12 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Red Albertan:

But yea, I realize I am speaking into the wind and to deaf ears.



Well, with Tory you sure are, obviously.

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 26 December 2005 12:13 AM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
Actually the wind is between her ears.
From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 26 December 2005 12:25 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ya, let's turn back the clock and re-live the 1930's. Please may we have dollar a day wages and no credit with banks. Let children trudge through 10 miles of blizzard weather to their little red school houses where they learn to recite facts and aspire to either dig ditches or become black bowe tie bankers and solicitors for the wealthy. The 30 year experiment in Smithian Laissez-faire capitalism was greyer and duller than Soviet communism. No thank you.

Are these posters real ?.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972

posted 26 December 2005 01:15 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We want "our" taxes back??

I think the better (and more honest) phrase would be: We want "your" taxes back...in the government's hands.

I was looking at my final pay stub for 2005 earlier today. I pay in taxes more than most people earn in a year. That's fine. If my tax percentage stayed the same from now on, that would be okay with me. But, to hear a constant urging of "more taxes" drives me nuts. The government gets enough.

Government is inherently inefficient. Here's an example:

My contribution to Social Security (with a small protion going to Medicare) in 2005 (employer and employee) was about US$15,000. When I retire, my SS check (assuming there's any SS left) will be about $18,000 per year.

In contrast, my employer contributes about $6,000 per year to my pension (a pension program our company has had for decades). My anticipated pension payout on that relatively small contribution will be about $50,000 per year.

What's a better investment: $15,000 per year to get $18,000 per year in retirement or $6,000 per year to get $50,000 per year?

So, when NDPers want more taxes, it's generally the taxes of others, not their own, that they want.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Red Albertan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9195

posted 26 December 2005 01:31 AM      Profile for Red Albertan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
But, to hear a constant urging of "more taxes" drives me nuts. The government gets enough.

Well, you must be in a different country. I hear no Party calling for "more taxes".

quote:
Government is inherently inefficient.

Nice 'Conservative' catch-phrase. And yet it's been Conservative Governments which tend to raise taxes for the middle class and lower them for the rich.

quote:
My contribution to Social Security (with a small protion going to Medicare) in 2005 (employer and employee) was about US$15,000. When I retire, my SS check (assuming there's any SS left) will be about $18,000 per year.

Why compare US Social Security to Canadian? It's not the same. And why do you doubt that there will be any SS left when you retire, since your corporate-friendly neo-Cons and neo-Libs are constantly in power - and you chirp their lines from the high wire - you should have nothing to fear. Dubya will take care of you, Sven.

quote:
In contrast, my employer contributes about $6,000 per year to my pension (a pension program our company has had for decades). My anticipated pension payout on that relatively small contribution will be about $50,000 per year.

Not exactly. That is, provided the money that supposedly goes into your company Pension is actually paid into a Pension Plan, and not just so on paper. How many examples have we witnessed in the last few years where these company 'pension plans' have evaporated into nothing. How many companies owe millions to their pension plans? Another Enron or WorldCom or Tyco, and it's all gone.

quote:
What's a better investment: $15,000 per year to get $18,000 per year in retirement or $6,000 per year to get $50,000 per year?

That depends on which will actually pay out when you're at retirement, and you won't know that for a while. On paper, the company one looks better. But like I said, so did Enron's.

quote:
So, when NDPers want more taxes, it's generally the taxes of others, not their own, that they want.

So, you are spreading lies. Add up what the Parties promise to spend. Conservatives don't come cheap. They will save money for the rich, and people like you will foot the bill for the corporate and 'rich people' tax cuts in the form of social spending cuts. So when people in your income group need medical treatment, they end up paying with their house, while people like Jimmy Pattison pay for that with their pocket change. Do the math before you blabber.


From: the world is my church, to do good is my religion | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9327

posted 26 December 2005 02:15 AM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
Government is inherently inefficient.

"Efficiency" isn't an end in and of itself to be met. You want efficiency? You could have an efficient health system in Manitoba by shutting down all health services outside of major urban centres and forcing people in smaller communities to have to go to large urban centres for any medical care. Yet despite the cost, we provide the rural areas with basic care so the people in those communities can get health care when they need it.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972

posted 26 December 2005 02:31 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Red Albertan:
Why compare US Social Security to Canadian? It's not the same. And why do you doubt that there will be any SS left when you retire, since your corporate-friendly neo-Cons and neo-Libs are constantly in power - and you chirp their lines from the high wire - you should have nothing to fear. Dubya will take care of you, Sven.

Dubya will be looooooong gone when I'm retired.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972

posted 26 December 2005 02:36 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Aristotleded24:
"Efficiency" isn't an end in and of itself to be met.

That's true, Aristotle. And, many aspects of government operation are necessarily (and appropriately) "inefficient". But, in areas where the government should be efficient it is invariably not.

And, the thing is, it really doesn't matter which party is in power. The Republicans, now that they have power in the USA, are as bad about wastefully spending money as the Democrats were during the forty (largely) unbroken years that they controlled Congress.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972

posted 26 December 2005 02:38 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Red Albertan:
Not exactly. That is, provided the money that supposedly goes into your company Pension is actually paid into a Pension Plan, and not just so on paper. How many examples have we witnessed in the last few years where these company 'pension plans' have evaporated into nothing. How many companies owe millions to their pension plans? Another Enron or WorldCom or Tyco, and it's all gone.

Of course there are examples of that. But, there are, what, about 10,000 publicly-held companies and hundreds of thousands of non-public corporations??

Eron, WorldCom and Tyco are the exception.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972

posted 26 December 2005 02:42 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Red Albertan:
That depends on which will actually pay out when you're at retirement, and you won't know that for a while. On paper, the company one looks better. But like I said, so did Enron's.

My company is not Enron...and most aren't (see my post above).

I have great faith in the honesty and integrity of the execs who run our company. I work with them routinely and know them personally. Otherwise, why would I have so much of my savings in the company's stock? We've had a track record that's over 80 years long and our management is rock solid (both strategically, tactically and ethically).

[ 26 December 2005: Message edited by: Sven ]


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972

posted 26 December 2005 02:46 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Red Albertan:
So when people in your income group need medical treatment, they end up paying with their house, while people like Jimmy Pattison pay for that with their pocket change. Do the math before you blabber.

Every employee at our company has great health insurance coverage (more than a million dollars in catestrophic coverage). And, I pay merely $70 per month for full coverage (the company pays several thousand dollars more on my behalf...and does that for all of our employees). I'm not going to have to be selling my house to pay for anything.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tory Spelling
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10528

posted 26 December 2005 04:00 AM      Profile for Tory Spelling   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If people knew best how to spend their own money, there would be no such thing as Walmart, Dollar stores, Harley Davidsons, Hummers, or Celine Dion.

All you are doing Jingles, is forcing your values about how money should be spent on everyone.

Why can't you accept differences in preferences among people? Does everyone have to hate WalMart in your world? Why?

I would not ever want to live in a country where the people are forced to walk in lock step in order to adhere to the value system of any one individual. Not even yours or my own.


From: Beverly Hills | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Merrick
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10855

posted 26 December 2005 04:12 AM      Profile for Merrick        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Red Albertan:
Well, you must be in a different country. I hear no Party calling for "more taxes".

Actually... it may not be a "tax" per-say but the NDP did say they'd like to put duties on energy exports...


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tory Spelling
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10528

posted 26 December 2005 04:12 AM      Profile for Tory Spelling   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
They keep working to make the rich richer, and the middle class poorer, and yet the middle class

One of the great aspects of our country, Red A, is that if you are willing to work hard and or smart, and or if you invest and save for your future you can go from poor to rich.

The left always refers to the rich and the poor as if they are static groups who are destined to always be as they are. Not so.

It's the really high spending of previous governments at all levels in Canada, the overspending really that does more to damage the hopes and dreams of those people in our society at the lower income levels. Deficits, growing debt, the burden of that debt, the interest, forcing the spending up further and worsening the problem. A burden forced onto the people by the manipulation class of elites, a burden bore by the wealth creators and therefore the workers whose jobs no longer exist, and the insidious burden that face the younger generations and the yet to be born who will ultimately have to pay the debt off. That's the reality.


From: Beverly Hills | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tory Spelling
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10528

posted 26 December 2005 04:22 AM      Profile for Tory Spelling   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ya, let's turn back the clock and re-live the 1930's. Please may we have dollar a day wages and no credit with banks. Let children trudge through 10 miles of blizzard weather to their little red school houses where they learn to recite facts and aspire to either dig ditches or become black bowe tie bankers and solicitors for the wealthy. The 30 year experiment in Smithian Laissez-faire capitalism was greyer and duller than Soviet communism. No thank you.


The economy cycles. It goes from Prosperity to Recession and back again and so on, Fidel.

And sometimes the prosperity is euphoric and sometimes the recessions are veritable depressions. Just as night follows day so to will we find ourselves in a depression as bad as the dirty 30's and as well we will see a period as robust as the roaring 20's again.

It's the way of the world. It's part of the collective human nature.


From: Beverly Hills | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tory Spelling
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10528

posted 26 December 2005 04:28 AM      Profile for Tory Spelling   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My contribution to Social Security (with a small protion going to Medicare) in 2005 (employer and employee) was about US$15,000. When I retire, my SS check (assuming there's any SS left) will be about $18,000 per year.

In contrast, my employer contributes about $6,000 per year to my pension (a pension program our company has had for decades). My anticipated pension payout on that relatively small contribution will be about $50,000 per year.


No one can justly rationalize a system that produces such a result for the people. It's ludicrous that our system has been allowed to devolve into such a horrid condition. It's the result of lack of leadership from our politicians more concerned with reelection than facing and solving complex problems such as our broken Pension Plan.


From: Beverly Hills | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tory Spelling
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10528

posted 26 December 2005 04:48 AM      Profile for Tory Spelling   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, you must be in a different country. I hear no Party calling for "more taxes".


Dalton brought in a massive health tax on people earning as little as 20,000 a year in Ontario after promising, 'I won't raise your taxes, but I won't cut them either'. Even going so far as to sign a pledge to not do so. The Ontario Liberals are trying to pass legislation that will allow municipal government to raise more taxes than they can now. The Green Party wants to triple the price of gas with massive tax increases. You know the NDP would raise taxes despite what Jack may be saying, because, well because that's what NDP do. The real reason the Liberals don't like the cut in the GST to 5% is because they would not be able to raise that tax back to 7% without anyone knowing. Something they would love to do. Any cuts the Liberals propose to income taxes would be eaten away by bracket creep over time, which is why that is their preferred method of cutting taxes, really phantom cuts, cuts that disappear in the future.

The left in general does not hesitate to raise taxes, bring in new taxes, otherwise increase the cost of doing business. It's what they do. They only look at the benefit side of such policies while ignoring the costs. It's typical.

Canadians have endured high tax policies long enough. Let's unleash the entrepreneurial spirit of the Canadian people like we have never seen it unleashed in our lifetimes. Let's make that happen for the people.


From: Beverly Hills | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tory Spelling
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10528

posted 26 December 2005 05:08 AM      Profile for Tory Spelling   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Conservatives don't come cheap. They will save money for the rich, and people like you will foot the bill for the corporate and 'rich people' tax cuts in the form of social spending cuts.

Conservatives will bring in tax cuts, but those cuts will be for the rich and the poor and the middle class, in fact every single person in Canada that has money to spend will see a tax cut under a Conservative government. What could be more fair?

I know a Conservative government will trim back the cost of our federal public spending, but it won't be by targeting social program spending. The cuts will come from other areas, the areas rife with waste, mismanagement and corruption for starters.

Once our Conservative government gets a hold of the wasteful spending, once they really start to take care of our national debt, all the while solving the fiscal imbalance, a phrase coined by Duceppe, but studied thoroughly by Preston Manning's Reformers long before the Bloc ever gave it a thought. Once Harper and his team have conquered those issues, think of the massive job creation our economy will produce and what that will do to reduce the need for some social spending.

Like job creation programs because the economy will be producing enough jobs, like UI payments because the people will be employed, like the public housing projects that will no longer be needed because the people will have jobs that allow them to pay for their own housing without the help of government, like less money needed to pay welfare benefits to people and on and on and on.


From: Beverly Hills | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 26 December 2005 09:50 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I know a Conservative government will trim back the cost of our federal public spending, but it won't be by targeting social program spending. The cuts will come from other areas, the areas rife with waste, mismanagement and corruption for starters.


Aw so naive. How refreshing! Let's hope most people are not so naive as this. Waste and mismanagement will be cut under the Conservatives? Prey tell, what do you mean by ;waste and mismanagement'? Who defines "waste"? In the mind of these neo-Cons, waste applies to social spending on programs needed for the vulnerable in our society. No one else is fooled by this, except people whose only motive is either greed or apathy. Which one are you on the side of?


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Red Albertan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9195

posted 26 December 2005 11:55 AM      Profile for Red Albertan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Merrick:

Actually... it may not be a "tax" per-say but the NDP did say they'd like to put duties on energy exports...


On Exports. Exactly. And rightly so. It's time we play some economic hardball with the crooks who have stolen billions of dollars from us and refuse to pay it back, despite 'court' orders.


From: the world is my church, to do good is my religion | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Red Albertan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9195

posted 26 December 2005 12:14 PM      Profile for Red Albertan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tory Spelling:
One of the great aspects of our country, Red A, is that if you are willing to work hard

The people that actually "work" the least make the most.

quote:
and or smart

...so in your world the ones who aren't "smart" should starve and be homeless?

quote:
and or if you invest and save for your future you can go from poor to rich.

...I'll be sure to let the next homeless person that I meet on the street know this.

quote:
The left always refers to the rich and the poor as if they are static groups who are destined to always be as they are. Not so.

Actually, for the most part they are static groups. There are very few who ever break out of poverty. It is easier to become "poor" than to become "rich".

quote:
It's the really high spending of previous governments at all levels in Canada, the overspending really that does more to damage the hopes and dreams of those people in our society at the lower income levels.

And here you are a Conservative... Last time we had a Conservative Government, Social Programs were cut while business taxes were reduced; Canada was sold out to the US in the Free Trade Agreement, and we lost sovereignty over the use of our natural resources; 23 Crown Corporations - including Petro Canada and Air Canada - were privatized, and Canadians now have to pay the additional profit margins; the GST was brought in... and yet despite all that 'conservative remedy' the unemployment level increased and fiscal deficit soared to never seen proportions. So much for Conservatives being fiscally responsible. Reckless would be the better description of Conservative fiscal policies.

quote:
Deficits, growing debt, the burden of that debt, the interest, forcing the spending up further and worsening the problem. A burden forced onto the people by the manipulation class of elites

That should be fine with you. Conservative and Liberal politicians are all about serving those wealthy elites. As long as these parties run the country on their own, it will not get better for the middle class and poor.

quote:
a burden bore by the wealth creators and therefore the workers whose jobs no longer exist, and the insidious burden that face the younger generations and the yet to be born who will ultimately have to pay the debt off. That's the reality.

Yes, that is the reality. But what is also the reality is that you don't see that you are supporting one side of these same "Elites-servers" and those who vote Liberal support the other side of the same people.


From: the world is my church, to do good is my religion | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Red Albertan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9195

posted 26 December 2005 12:18 PM      Profile for Red Albertan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tory Spelling:
The economy cycles. It goes from Prosperity to Recession and back again and so on, Fidel.

And sometimes the prosperity is euphoric and sometimes the recessions are veritable depressions. Just as night follows day so to will we find ourselves in a depression as bad as the dirty 30's and as well we will see a period as robust as the roaring 20's again.

It's the way of the world. It's part of the collective human nature.


It's not true. That's the way of the Capitalist world. Recessions are artificial.


From: the world is my church, to do good is my religion | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9327

posted 26 December 2005 12:51 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tory Spelling:
It's the really high spending of previous governments at all levels in Canada, the overspending really that does more to damage the hopes and dreams of those people in our society at the lower income levels. Deficits, growing debt, the burden of that debt, the interest, forcing the spending up further and worsening the problem. A burden forced onto the people by the manipulation class of elites, a burden bore by the wealth creators and therefore the workers whose jobs no longer exist, and the insidious burden that face the younger generations and the yet to be born who will ultimately have to pay the debt off. That's the reality.

So how did Tommy Douglas manage to introduce social programs to Saskatchewan while paying off the province's debt? How did Saskatchewan's debt manage to skyrocket under a Conservative government, even though this government sold off many Crown Corporations?

BTW Sven, Tory Spelling, and Red Albertan, would you please, as much as possible, try and make your whole points in one post at a time? Multiple consecutive posts by the same person make the thread look longer than it is, and that makes it susceptible to being closed down too early.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
muse
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11465

posted 26 December 2005 12:56 PM      Profile for muse        Edit/Delete Post
They promise tax cuts because it seems to garner some support.Many Canadians feel overtaxed to some degree and think that a modest rebate is justified.There are many examples of goverment waste on record,money that never reached social programs or vunerable people that could have used it.When events like adscam happen people rightly feel that their tax dollars are not being properly spent.This provides fertile ground for politicians offering tax cuts as election promises.Canadians advocating increased social spending should be aware of the affect that incidents of goverment mismamagement have on the electorate.It makes many feel that they are not getting value for their money, so they are open to suggestions of tax cuts.Coservatives and NDP supporters should agree on strengthening whistle blower protections and widening the auditor generals scope.To repeatedly name call (looney-left,neo-con) or impugn other contributors motives (greed,apathy)does little to advance ones point of view.It appears to be an attempt to reinforce stereotypes.
From: ottawa | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Red Albertan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9195

posted 26 December 2005 01:08 PM      Profile for Red Albertan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tory Spelling:
Dalton brought in a massive health tax on people earning as little as 20,000 a year in Ontario after promising, 'I won't raise your taxes, but I won't cut them either'. Even going so far as to sign a pledge to not do so.

Hold your horses. I don't live in Ontario, so his policies don't affect me directly. However, he based his pledge on the provincial books, which were seriously cooked by the Conservative Harris/Eves Governments. Those crooks deserve jail time.

quote:
You know the NDP would raise taxes despite what Jack may be saying, because, well because that's what NDP do.

For fucks sake. This tripe is pissing me off. Where the hell do you get this garbage from, other than from unfounded accusations by the political opponents. You have no right to make such claims until the NDP has actually formed government and does such a thing. The Conservatives want to spend 6 billion dollars (?) on ice breakers to confront an "ally" who doesn't give a shit about our sovereignty. And once they confront those US subs in arctic waters with our 6 billion dollars worth of new military equipment, they'll warn them... and if they don't leave our territory they are going to... ummm... ah... yeah, that's what we're going to do if you don't leave!... Just sit there pretty and do absolutely NOTHING.

Within the big picture, the Parties are not much different on how much they will spend, but a world of difference WHERE they will spend that money. Harper would spend money on the military, and on joint-invasions with the US and long drawn out wars overseas. Layton thinks that same money is better spent serving Canadians. Harper and Martin want to shift the burden of billions of dollars in corporate tax cuts onto cuts to the Social System and on Middle Class earners.

quote:
The real reason the Liberals don't like the cut in the GST to 5% is because they would not be able to raise that tax back to 7% without anyone knowing.

But Harper's Reform Party promised to eliminate the GST altogether, didn't it? Why no longer eliminate it now? The GST replaced the MST in order to make our exports more competitive, and supposedly it did. But a cut in tax will also mean a necessary cut in services. You cannot maintain social services, healthcare, national defense, police and infrastructure on a shoestring budget. Like I said before, all this does is push the cost of provision of essential services from government to each individual. You will still pay for what the government can no longer provide because of lack of adequate funding. If Harper becomes Prime Minister, his government will be the first one to again run up our debt and have a fiscal deficit.

quote:
The left in general does not hesitate to raise taxes, bring in new taxes, otherwise increase the cost of doing business. It's what they do. They only look at the benefit side of such policies while ignoring the costs. It's typical.

Is that true? The left - there never has been a federal NDP government, so your assertion to blame 'the left' is incorrect, as the Liberals are centrists - has brought in all those evil taxes? Lets look at the reality...

Income Tax, both personal and corporate... brought in by Conservative Prime Minister Sir Robert Laird Borden in 1917, the first direct federal tax in Canadian history.

Sales Tax... brought in by Conservative Prime Minister Sir Robert Laird Borden in 1920

GST... brought in by Conservative Prime Minister Brian Mulroney in 1991

quote:
Canadians have endured high tax policies long enough.

War led to the first direct federal tax in Canada, and Stephen Harper wants to get us involved in more wars, which requires huge 'investment' in military. That, coupled with tax cuts for the mostly wealthy, will translate into a ballooning deficit and debt, and higher taxes in the end, to pay down that debt. You are supporting the same 'principles' that led to the first direct federal tax in Canada. Canadians are not overtaxed, but the Corporate Parties don't handle our money wisely, and THAT part bugs me. Conservative and Liberal Governments have given away billions of dollars that you and me worked for, to corporate Elites. (Recently nearly half a billion dollars to GM, just before they announced plant closures, and layoffs.)

quote:
Let's unleash the entrepreneurial spirit of the Canadian people like we have never seen it unleashed in our lifetimes.

We may not have in our lifetime, but Canada has. Your 'unleashing' will lead to another 'dirty thirties' where people go starving because there's no government service available to help.

quote:
Let's make that happen for the people.

No thanks. I'll pass on your neo-Con propaganda.


From: the world is my church, to do good is my religion | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Red Albertan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9195

posted 26 December 2005 01:21 PM      Profile for Red Albertan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tory Spelling:
Conservatives will bring in tax cuts, but those cuts will be for the rich and the poor and the middle class, in fact every single person in Canada that has money to spend will see a tax cut under a Conservative government. What could be more fair?

Every Conservative Government seems to promise tax cuts, but instead introduce new taxes for the middle and low income earners. The only ones ever getting a real cut are the rich. What could be more unfair?

quote:
I know a Conservative government will trim back the cost of our federal public spending, but it won't be by targeting social program spending.

Of course it will be. That's what they have always done. Why would it be different now?

quote:
The cuts will come from other areas, the areas rife with waste, mismanagement and corruption for starters.

That's just fancy propaganda. The Mulroney Conservatives were one of the most corrupt Governments in Canada's history.

quote:
Once our Conservative government gets a hold of the wasteful spending, once they really start to take care of our national debt, all the while solving the fiscal imbalance,

Hook. Line. And Sinker. *gulp*

quote:
Once Harper and his team have conquered those issues, think of the massive job creation our economy will produce

The last Conservative Government created mostly debt and skyrocketing unemployment. At least THIS can be said for the corporate-friendly Liberals, that both debt and unemployment have decreased under their rule.

quote:
Like job creation programs because the economy will be producing enough jobs,

That's likely a utopian myth. Technological advancement will ensure that there are always plenty of unemployed as corporations opt for technology over jobs.

quote:
like the public housing projects that will no longer be needed because the people will have jobs that allow them to pay for their own housing without the help of government,

...because of all the Wal-Mart and McDonalds "jobs" that will be created? And all the outsourcing of (now) good-paying jobs to overseas locations our corporations (like Telus) will do?

quote:
like less money needed to pay welfare benefits to people and on and on and on.

Wake up. Social Assistance in its different forms is paid out because of many different reasons, one of the least of which is lack of opportunity. Our society is based on a sick drive to over-consumption, and resulting from that creates a lot of mental illness and addictions in various forms, that don't allow people to function in such a society. The need for Social Assistance will never disappear, though the provision might.


From: the world is my church, to do good is my religion | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
thwap
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5062

posted 26 December 2005 01:33 PM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Chretien Liberals started raising taxes in 1993. Then when Mike Harris became Premier of Ontario he started to cut taxes. Of course, Jean was continuing to raise federal taxes, so most Ontarians could not actually say their overall taxes fell, even though Mike did indeed cut the taxes for the people of Ontario.

During this time Municipal governments found it more and more difficult to raise the taxes they charged their citizens, since taxpayers across Canada were being sucked dry by a tax hungry federal government. Since people were accutely aware of the high taxes they were already paying and since municipal governments ability to tax is limited, they were struggling to find the funds they needed and wanted to run their shows.


I know this is the sort of drivel we're supposed to ignore, but I can't refrain from pointing out the fundamental, inherent dishonesty of this statement.

It's like this: Chretien and Martin cut transfers to the provinces, and the provinces in turn put more financial burdens on the municipalities underneath them. This was especially the case in Harris's Ontario. link

Whatever Harris delivered in the way of tax cuts was more than taken up by increases in user-fees, municipal property taxes, and service cuts. Obviously, this holds true for the Chretien-Martin Lieberals as well.

Your obfuscating weasel words in your post are indicative of your inability to speak plainly and truthfully and give the lie to the Harper-CPC's efforts to appear reasonable, compassionate, sensible, and trustworthy.

You are con men, nothing more, nothing less. It would please me greatly if your form of corruption and lying were to vanish forever from Canadian politics.

Tory Spelling, these will be my last words typed to you because you're a dishonest hack not worthy of serious debate. Happy holidays and I pray for you coming to some semblance of sanity in 2006.


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
muse
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11465

posted 26 December 2005 01:34 PM      Profile for muse        Edit/Delete Post
Dalton publicly stated during the last election that he believed the conservatives were running a deficeit to the tune of 5 billion annually.With the election won he suddenly forgot this . As for putting deceitful politicians in jail i agree.
From: ottawa | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Red Albertan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9195

posted 26 December 2005 01:46 PM      Profile for Red Albertan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by muse:
As for putting deceitful politicians in jail i agree.

I am not an apologist for corporatist politicians, Conservative or Liberal. To my knowledge, the true extent of the Harris/Eves deficit only came out after McGuinty had won the election.

To jail politicians, you'd first have to find a politician who will sign into law that s/he could be jailed for deceit of Harris or Adscam proportions. Not likely going to happen.


From: the world is my church, to do good is my religion | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 26 December 2005 01:50 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:

My company is not Enron...and most aren't (see my post above).

I have great faith in the honesty and integrity of the execs who run our company. I work with them routinely and know them personally. Otherwise, why would I have so much of my savings in the company's stock? We've had a track record that's over 80 years long and our management is rock solid (both strategically, tactically and ethically).

[ 26 December 2005: Message edited by: Sven ]


The average life span of a corporation is 20 years, the average life span of a human is over 70 years, the average working life of a north American is between 35 and 45 years ... you do the math.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
fake_oxygen
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8898

posted 26 December 2005 02:14 PM      Profile for fake_oxygen     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
public housing projects that will no longer be needed because the people will have jobs that allow them to pay for their own housing without the help of government, like less money needed to pay welfare benefits to people and on and on and on.

Yeah, tell that to the mentally retarded people and physically handicapped people who can't find jobs because nobody will hire them. Or the person who works at Wendy's who just got promoted to head french fry cutter even though he can't afford school, can't get a loan for living expenses and tuition costing over 15000 per year for school, and can't get hired anywhere else. You're living in a utopian world my friend. There are reasons people aren't moving up in our system, and those need to be addressed.

quote:
And sometimes the prosperity is euphoric and sometimes the recessions are veritable depressions. Just as night follows day so to will we find ourselves in a depression as bad as the dirty 30's and as well we will see a period as robust as the roaring 20's again.

You're treating the economy and economic cycles like they're something natural. They are social creations. The stock market is something we created, capitalism was created by us, the flows of the stock market are a product of society. The stock market was only a hundred years ago considered evil and against Christianity due to the commonalities stock trading had with gambling. The dirty thirties was created by human stupidity, and what we should do is learn from these human mistakes (which we did breifly), not sit back passively and wait for our plutocrats to create these conditions again.


From: Peterborough | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
chilipepper
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11377

posted 26 December 2005 02:38 PM      Profile for chilipepper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by muse:
Dalton publicly stated during the last election that he believed the conservatives were running a deficeit to the tune of 5 billion annually.With the election won he suddenly forgot this . As for putting deceitful politicians in jail i agree.

Which actually wasn't true, there was a deficit,but not 5B. The terms of reference for their auditor was somewhat different, and the liberals included the Ontario Hydro debt into their total, normally not included, but the media and readers bought into it.

I would like to see legislation requiring a complete (forensic?) audit of the books releasing the results publicly, prior to every election. That way, it would stop any party saying they were misled or didn't know about the numbers.


From: GTA | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Dad
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11232

posted 26 December 2005 02:57 PM      Profile for Dad        Edit/Delete Post
Pherhaps with fixed election dates the next step is to have the provinces financial status reviewed and ageeed upon prior to campaign kickoff.Less room for slight of hand eh.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972

posted 28 December 2005 08:25 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
The average life span of a corporation is 20 years, the average life span of a human is over 70 years, the average working life of a north American is between 35 and 45 years ... you do the math.

I'm not trying to be willfully ignorant. So, please help me: What is the point you're trying to make?


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
fake_oxygen
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8898

posted 28 December 2005 08:30 PM      Profile for fake_oxygen     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I believe the point that was trying to be made was that corporations can not adequately be relied upon for job security. The mantra of get an education, and work for a company that takes care of you for thirty or forty years, no longer exists (except perhaps in Oshawa).
From: Peterborough | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9327

posted 28 December 2005 08:57 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by fake_oxygen:
I believe the point that was trying to be made was that corporations can not adequately be relied upon for job security. The mantra of get an education, and work for a company that takes care of you for thirty or forty years, no longer exists (except perhaps in Oshawa).

I remember in high school when they handed out career material, and the material talked about not expecting "company coccoons for employees." It also seems that people (especially our age) when they are told about jobs are told that in the initial stages they need to take whatever comes their way and make such concessions as being available for their employers whenever their employers need them in order to make it in the world.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1245

posted 28 December 2005 09:00 PM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
fake_oxygen,

I agree. If the average company survives for 20 years and the average working lifespan is 35 or more years, there is no way that most people can expect to work for one employer for their whole life and then be taken care of in retirement.

The only thing that's clear about the future is that whatever "career" a new grad starts out with won't be the one they finish with.

By the way, I wouldn't put too much faith in Oshawa.


From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1275

posted 29 December 2005 12:54 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
...Pickering, perhaps.
From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 30 December 2005 08:29 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by chilipepper:
I would like to see legislation requiring a complete (forensic?) audit of the books releasing the results publicly, prior to every election. That way, it would stop any party saying they were misled or didn't know about the numbers.

quote:
Hugh Mackenzie, co-chair of the Ontario Alternative Budget Working Group, has examined the Tories' numbers and arrives at very different conclusions. After the Tories came to power they introduced a new accounting system. Mackenzie says this created flexibility in announcing certain government costs. "It gave the government control over when they report spending," says Mackenzie. "In political terms, it gave them the ability to load up the budget deficit and say it was the responsibility of the NDP."

The Tories say the deficit was as high as $11.3 billion when they came to power and that it has steadily declined to $2.1 billion. Mackenzie says there has been no such steady decline -- the new accounting methods just created the ability to make it appear that way. Mackenzie says the deficit in the last year of the NDP's reign was more like $6.9 billion -- not $11.3 billion -- and that the deficit today is more like $5.3 billion, not $2.1 billion.

Mackenzie says the Tories borrowed $25 billion to finance tax cuts and other costs.


Eye 1999

The first and only NDP government in Ontario history inherited an "unforseen" annual budget deficit of $2 or $3 billion from the Petersen Liberals. And then Lyin' Brian cut $4 billion dollars in annual federal transfer payments to Rae's Ontario NDP government at the height of what was one of the worst economic recessions presided over by political conservatives in Canada since the 1930's.

[ 30 December 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca