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Author Topic: Taxes and Universities/Post Secondary/Native Status Cards
madmax
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posted 13 August 2008 04:53 AM      Profile for madmax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ok, don't jump to conclusions on this post.

I would like to know why FN people receive free post 2ndary education. Do not pay taxes, and why those off the reserves are entitled to a native status card? Do FN receive a stipend or monies from the Feds, do individuals receive monies from the feds monthly.

I am asked these questions , yet I do not know the historical context behind how the government and FN came to these policies.


From: Ontario | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ghislaine
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posted 13 August 2008 04:58 AM      Profile for Ghislaine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There is a wealth of information available on these topics within babble threads, as well as on the internet and in your local library. I doubt many babblers will jump at the chance at educating you at such a basic level on FN history.


It is hard to believe that you are not being disengenous with your questions and I doubt this thread will go well for you.


From: L'Î-P-É | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 13 August 2008 05:13 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I will answer your questions, madmax, with questions of my own.

Why are some non-First Nations people obsessed with status cards, taxes, etc and NOT obsessed with police violence against FN people?

Why are some non-First Nations people obsessed with questions of "special benefits" that they assume First Nations people get, and are NOT obsessed with deplorable condition on many reservations, how FN activists are criminalized, racism and ongoing colonialism, stolen children and genocide committed on the land of Canada that we non-First Nations people call "home"?


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 13 August 2008 05:23 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by madmax:
I would like to know why FN people receive free post 2ndary education. Do not pay taxes, and why those off the reserves are entitled to a native status card?

I think they get these rights in exchange for not reclaiming the homes and land the rest of us live in.

Would you like to trade?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 13 August 2008 05:32 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I know those questions are hypothetical, bcg, but I think I can give you some answers, from my experience of being a white person, growing up in a semi-rural, semi-suburban, mostly white community not too far away from a reserve.

It's because we settlers learn absolutely NOTHING about the history of colonization of Indigenous peoples, not in school, not through the media, not anywhere. When we learn about "Indians" in school (as they were called when I was in school), we learned about traditional dress (all those feathers! how quaint!) and pemmican, and some pretty scrubbed and extremely basic history of first contact.

And, of course, we learned just enough (e.g. practically nothing) about their religious beliefs to know that they were also "quaint" and far-fetched "myths" (unlike, of course, the prayer we had to say every morning after singing O Canada).

So, in school, we learn that Aboriginal people are people who dress funny, think funny, and then we're given a token instruction to "respect" them without giving us any reason whatsoever as to why we should even think of them as people at all.

And then...there's a reserve next door. Which the local media alternates between vilifying and pitying. And on the odd occasion, when some sort of settlement or land claim issue comes up either locally or elsewhere, all the resentment comes out of the woodwork and into the local letters to the editor and opinion pieces: isn't it enough that they don't have to pay any taxes (not true), they get everything for free (not true), that they're all on welfare (not true), that we give them all this money and they still want more (not true), etc.

Basically, it's pure ignorance, coupled with media hostility, and unchecked and uncorrected stereotypes passed down through generations of white people through family, relatives, etc. that make some (I'd venture to say many) settlers more interested in getting up in arms about what taxes Indigenous people do or don't pay, than the fact that they're being targeted, harmed, and killed by racist settlers and racist police.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
madmax
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posted 13 August 2008 06:51 AM      Profile for madmax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ghislaine Wrote
quote:

There is a wealth of information available on these topics within babble threads, as well as on the internet and in your local library. I doubt many babblers will jump at the chance at educating you at such a basic level on FN history.

If they are helpful they will.

quote:

It is hard to believe that you are not being disengenous with your questions and I doubt this thread will go well for you.

That is only because you are suspicious of my motives.

People are ignorant of FN and I am trying to educate myself.

There is alot of garbage on the internet as well.

I have no reason to believe this thread will not go well. I am expecting help, and if you wish to point me toward some "professional" resources, then I am happy to follow those links.

If you know of an FAQ, even better.


From: Ontario | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
madmax
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posted 13 August 2008 06:54 AM      Profile for madmax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I think they get these rights in exchange for not reclaiming the homes and land the rest of us live in.

But do you know for certain? What you and I think, may not be correct.


From: Ontario | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 13 August 2008 06:58 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by madmax:
People are ignorant of FN and I am trying to educate myself.
Uh, no, actually you are trying to get other people to educate you, please do feel free to read through the archives in this forum.

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
madmax
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posted 13 August 2008 07:04 AM      Profile for madmax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
BCG wrote

quote:
I will answer your questions, madmax, with questions of my own.
Why are some non-First Nations people obsessed with status cards, taxes, etc and NOT obsessed with police violence against FN people?

1) Petty Jealousy, Ignorance, Racism. (Obsessed)
However, to ask a legitimate question, and expect a legitimate answer is seeking and receiving knowledge.

2) Not all people ignore violence against FN. But the Majority couldn't care less.

quote:

Why are some non-First Nations people obsessed with questions of "special benefits" that they assume First Nations people get,

People do assume that they receive these benefits. People should be educated to know why the receive these benefits. They should also know who doesn't and who is/was not entitled.

quote:

and are NOT obsessed with deplorable condition on many reservations, how FN activists are criminalized, racism and ongoing colonialism, stolen children and genocide committed on the land of Canada that we non-First Nations people call "home"?

Human beings should care about all human beings.

Perhaps someone will answer these basic FN questions that I would like answers to.

I even accept PM


From: Ontario | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 13 August 2008 07:05 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
It's because we settlers learn absolutely NOTHING about the history of colonization of Indigenous peoples, not in school, not through the media, not anywhere. When we learn about "Indians" in school (as they were called when I was in school), we learned about traditional dress (all those feathers! how quaint!) and pemmican, and some pretty scrubbed and extremely basic history of first contact.

This is absolutely correct Michelle. I grew up in a very similar environment and went to school in one of the last FN residential schools. Even there we learned nothing of FN culture or any detailed settlement history.

Your post exactly nailed my experience growing up.


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
madmax
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posted 13 August 2008 07:10 AM      Profile for madmax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Remind Wrote

quote:
Uh, no, actually you are trying to get other people to educate you, please do feel free to read through the archives in this forum.

Yes you are correct. This is a public discussion forum. I have no problem with others educating me.

I will see what I can find in the archives.
Hopefully, there will be good links in these archives that will answer some of these basic questions.

People who know the answers to these questions but withhold the information, because they are "smarter" are not so smart.

TRUE

TWO
ROW
Understanding
Education


From: Ontario | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 13 August 2008 07:20 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know all the answers to your questions, madmax, but I think you can just as easily start doing google searches as I can. There is a wealth of information out there. Although I wouldn't recommend it for any insight into Indigenous activism, you could still perhaps start with the "Indian and Northern Affairs" web site so that you can at least read about what the entitlements actually are, as opposed to ones you've just heard or imagine that "they" get.

That should at least give you a start on answering the questions in your opening post about why Indigenous people off reserve might need status cards, and about your tax and tuition questions.

[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 13 August 2008 07:55 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A good question to be asking is, if FN do get free tuition to go to university, why in the world are there so damn few that actually make it to uni? It's definitely not the money keeping them from coming in and making their way to a degree; it's a whole host of other factors such as basic built-in societal indifference, poor-quality standards of living on reserves (tell me how nice things are on a reserve when the unemployment rate is 70%), and providence only knows what else provides impediments to First Nations being able to get a decent education.

You want to bitch about free tuition? How about the fact that free tuition gets given to anyone whose mother or father works at a university? A guy I know whose mother worked at uni had the nerve to bitch that he didn't get a full scholarship when he was already not having to pay tuition. I had to try not to roll my eyes too hard there.

[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 14 August 2008 03:29 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Two price tags for post-secondary in Canada. There's what middle and upper class kids and their parents pay for post-secondary.

And then there's a much different price paid when Canadian students pay highest interest rates in the world on student loan debt over a quarter century or more. Jack Layton says it's like having a mortgage without a house to show for it.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Caissa
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posted 14 August 2008 03:39 AM      Profile for Caissa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I work at a university. Children of employees pay half tuition here. It is a taxable benefit; the alternative would be providing that additional amount of remuneration to an employee.

Fidel is correct about the burden of debt experienced by students these days. Tuition costs have far out stripped the rate of inflation.

I come from a Working Class background; my father did not finish high school and he worked as a security guard for most of his life. When I started university in 1981, my yearly tuition fees were $890 with an additional $100 Student's fee. The cost of my textbooks for the year were just over $200. I easily made that amount of money and more at a summer job. When I completed my last degree in 1994, my accumulated debt was $ 4000.

Now debts are high and effecting choices students can make upon graduation.


From: Saint John | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ghislaine
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posted 14 August 2008 03:48 AM      Profile for Ghislaine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Two price tags for post-secondary in Canada. There's what middle and upper class kids and their parents pay for post-secondary.

And then there's a much different price paid when Canadian students pay highest interest rates in the world on student loan debt over a quarter century or more. Jack Layton says it's like having a mortgage without a house to show for it.



Thank you for pointing that out Fidel. It is a national embarassment as far as I am concerned. No wonder we have a doctor shortage - why would an intelligent low-income person want to pursue a medical degree with the current student loan set up?

I current accrue 6 dollars
per day onto my already astronomical student loan debt. All i can afford right now is paying the interest each month, which is about $180. Almost 200$ per month and not a drop goes to reducing overall debt.

Okay, sorry - could not resist the little rant - sorry to thread drift.

I think the goal should be for all Canadians to have free tuition, rather than questioning why FN Canadians get this. Unionist worded it best further up the thread in his wry manner. Madmax, I apologize if I seemed snarky in my initial reaction to you - especially as your intentions do seem sincere.


From: L'Î-P-É | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 14 August 2008 05:55 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
You want to bitch about free tuition? How about the fact that free tuition gets given to anyone whose mother or father works at a university?

I don't want to drift this away from the forum's focus on Indigenous peoples, but I just have to address this remark as I believe it is rooted in ignorance. The reason we and our kids and spouses get free tuition is because we bargained for it in our collective agreements through our unions. University employees aren't just professors. They are admin staff, food service workers, and a whole bunch of other working class people too.

So yes, I proudly take advantage of the free tuition I get so that I can complete the university degree that I couldn't afford to continue before. And I will proudly take advantage of free tuition for my son, should I still be working here and should he choose to attend this university. It is a benefit that my union has fought for and, just like all the other benefits my union bargains for, including decent pay, and decent health and dental benefits, I am fully entitled to it, and so is my family.

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ghislaine
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posted 14 August 2008 06:49 AM      Profile for Ghislaine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

I don't want to drift this away from the forum's focus on Indigenous peoples, but I just have to address this remark as I believe it is rooted in ignorance. The reason we and our kids and spouses get free tuition is because we bargained for it in our collective agreements through our unions. University employees aren't just professors. They are admin staff, food service workers, and a whole bunch of other working class people too.

So yes, I proudly take advantage of the free tuition I get so that I can complete the university degree that I couldn't afford to continue before. And I will proudly take advantage of free tuition for my son, should I still be working here and should he choose to attend this university. It is a benefit that my union has fought for and, just like all the other benefits my union bargains for, including decent pay, and decent health and dental benefits, I am fully entitled to it, and so is my family.

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]



Everyone should get this, though, wouldn't you say? Not just FN people and unionized university employees? It is a national scandal the rates of interest that students pay on their student loans.


From: L'Î-P-É | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 14 August 2008 07:00 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, absolutely! Don't get me wrong, I'm all for free tuition for everyone. But in the current situation where tuition isn't free for everyone, tuition rebates or free tuition for Indigenous people is more than justified.

And whether or not university employees have bargained for free tuition as a benefit really doesn't have anything to do with that.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 14 August 2008 07:44 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
However, I note that most university employees and professors happen to be white. Far as I can tell white people certainly aren't a vanishingly small number of people in universities.

But that's not perpetuating privilege or anything.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
sknguy
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posted 14 August 2008 10:13 AM      Profile for sknguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Question 1: originally it was because of Canada’s assimilationist education policies. Evolving from that, this undertaking continues as what’s called a fiduciary/treaty responsibility, although our assimilation is still very important to the government.
Question 2: because Indians, up until about 1958, were not legally persons under Canadian law. It has evolved since then through the record of jurisprudence.
Question 3: because Canada needs to control, for it’s purposes, the legal definition an Indian, therein control who actually is an Indian.
Question 4: for communities covered by what are called the numbered treaties, every person receives $5.00 per annum distributed, by Indian Affairs, annually through treaty annuity days, or by later application from individuals.
Question 5: no

For more historical context you could check out "White Man's Law" by Sidney L. Harring

quote:
posted by madmax:
... I am expecting help...
[/QB]

Whah-whah.


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 14 August 2008 12:30 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ghislaine:


Everyone should get this, though, wouldn't you say? Not just FN people and unionized university employees? It is a national scandal the rates of interest that students pay on their student loans.



You highlight the reason as a society that we need a strong and vibrant labour movement. Unions in the early 60's pushed hard and struck for pensions and health benefits. When they had forced some employers to pay then our politico's in the LIB and Con parties started stealing CCF/NDP ideas like enacting CPP and Medicare.

Another example is that without our labour movement we would never had that brief period in history where people expected to only work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Since our labour movement has been drastically weakened over the last two decades we see people now expecting to work 2 or 3 jobs and far more than 40 hours to make ends meet. Strengthen the working class and all boats will rise with that tide.

A stronger union movement will inevitable lead to greater social equality.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
madmax
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posted 14 August 2008 01:13 PM      Profile for madmax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
SKNGUY

Thanks for the answers. Best I have received. I'll take the Whah Whah with a sense of humour/humility


From: Ontario | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
sknguy
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posted 14 August 2008 02:13 PM      Profile for sknguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't understand why First Nations people are continually asked answer for the questions that Canadian Law (Canadian Government) creates.
From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Le Téléspectateur
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posted 21 August 2008 10:01 AM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I don't understand why First Nations people are continually asked answer for the questions that Canadian Law (Canadian Government) creates.

And that "canadians" tacitly support yet know nothing about.


It should be mentioned madmax, that settler people in Canada have treaty rights too - like Unionist alluded to.

In some places these are specifically listed (like the number treaties) in others they are more general (like the Two Row Wampum). Either way, as Michelle pointed out, settlers do not learn about the huge number of treaty rights that we get. We only learn, usually informally by ignorant racists, that Indigenous people get this and that. Even the elite of settler society are ignorant on this front. Remember when the mayor of Caledonia made the comment about "getting cheques from the government" or something? She did it on television and must have been pretty sure of herself to say such a thing.


From: More here than there | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged

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