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Topic: Taxes and Universities/Post Secondary/Native Status Cards
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Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560
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posted 13 August 2008 05:32 AM
I know those questions are hypothetical, bcg, but I think I can give you some answers, from my experience of being a white person, growing up in a semi-rural, semi-suburban, mostly white community not too far away from a reserve.It's because we settlers learn absolutely NOTHING about the history of colonization of Indigenous peoples, not in school, not through the media, not anywhere. When we learn about "Indians" in school (as they were called when I was in school), we learned about traditional dress (all those feathers! how quaint!) and pemmican, and some pretty scrubbed and extremely basic history of first contact. And, of course, we learned just enough (e.g. practically nothing) about their religious beliefs to know that they were also "quaint" and far-fetched "myths" (unlike, of course, the prayer we had to say every morning after singing O Canada). So, in school, we learn that Aboriginal people are people who dress funny, think funny, and then we're given a token instruction to "respect" them without giving us any reason whatsoever as to why we should even think of them as people at all. And then...there's a reserve next door. Which the local media alternates between vilifying and pitying. And on the odd occasion, when some sort of settlement or land claim issue comes up either locally or elsewhere, all the resentment comes out of the woodwork and into the local letters to the editor and opinion pieces: isn't it enough that they don't have to pay any taxes (not true), they get everything for free (not true), that they're all on welfare (not true), that we give them all this money and they still want more (not true), etc. Basically, it's pure ignorance, coupled with media hostility, and unchecked and uncorrected stereotypes passed down through generations of white people through family, relatives, etc. that make some (I'd venture to say many) settlers more interested in getting up in arms about what taxes Indigenous people do or don't pay, than the fact that they're being targeted, harmed, and killed by racist settlers and racist police.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001
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madmax
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15139
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posted 13 August 2008 06:51 AM
Ghislaine Wrote quote:
There is a wealth of information available on these topics within babble threads, as well as on the internet and in your local library. I doubt many babblers will jump at the chance at educating you at such a basic level on FN history.
If they are helpful they will. quote:
It is hard to believe that you are not being disengenous with your questions and I doubt this thread will go well for you.
That is only because you are suspicious of my motives. People are ignorant of FN and I am trying to educate myself. There is alot of garbage on the internet as well. I have no reason to believe this thread will not go well. I am expecting help, and if you wish to point me toward some "professional" resources, then I am happy to follow those links. If you know of an FAQ, even better.
From: Ontario | Registered: Apr 2008
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madmax
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15139
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posted 13 August 2008 07:04 AM
BCG wrote quote: I will answer your questions, madmax, with questions of my own. Why are some non-First Nations people obsessed with status cards, taxes, etc and NOT obsessed with police violence against FN people?
1) Petty Jealousy, Ignorance, Racism. (Obsessed) However, to ask a legitimate question, and expect a legitimate answer is seeking and receiving knowledge. 2) Not all people ignore violence against FN. But the Majority couldn't care less. quote:
Why are some non-First Nations people obsessed with questions of "special benefits" that they assume First Nations people get,
People do assume that they receive these benefits. People should be educated to know why the receive these benefits. They should also know who doesn't and who is/was not entitled. quote:
and are NOT obsessed with deplorable condition on many reservations, how FN activists are criminalized, racism and ongoing colonialism, stolen children and genocide committed on the land of Canada that we non-First Nations people call "home"?
Human beings should care about all human beings. Perhaps someone will answer these basic FN questions that I would like answers to. I even accept PM
From: Ontario | Registered: Apr 2008
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madmax
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15139
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posted 13 August 2008 07:10 AM
Remind Wrote quote: Uh, no, actually you are trying to get other people to educate you, please do feel free to read through the archives in this forum.
Yes you are correct. This is a public discussion forum. I have no problem with others educating me. I will see what I can find in the archives. Hopefully, there will be good links in these archives that will answer some of these basic questions. People who know the answers to these questions but withhold the information, because they are "smarter" are not so smart. TRUE TWO ROW Understanding Education
From: Ontario | Registered: Apr 2008
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Caissa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12752
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posted 14 August 2008 03:39 AM
I work at a university. Children of employees pay half tuition here. It is a taxable benefit; the alternative would be providing that additional amount of remuneration to an employee.Fidel is correct about the burden of debt experienced by students these days. Tuition costs have far out stripped the rate of inflation. I come from a Working Class background; my father did not finish high school and he worked as a security guard for most of his life. When I started university in 1981, my yearly tuition fees were $890 with an additional $100 Student's fee. The cost of my textbooks for the year were just over $200. I easily made that amount of money and more at a summer job. When I completed my last degree in 1994, my accumulated debt was $ 4000. Now debts are high and effecting choices students can make upon graduation.
From: Saint John | Registered: Jun 2006
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Ghislaine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14957
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posted 14 August 2008 03:48 AM
quote: Originally posted by Fidel: Two price tags for post-secondary in Canada. There's what middle and upper class kids and their parents pay for post-secondary. And then there's a much different price paid when Canadian students pay highest interest rates in the world on student loan debt over a quarter century or more. Jack Layton says it's like having a mortgage without a house to show for it.
Thank you for pointing that out Fidel. It is a national embarassment as far as I am concerned. No wonder we have a doctor shortage - why would an intelligent low-income person want to pursue a medical degree with the current student loan set up?
I current accrue 6 dollars per day onto my already astronomical student loan debt. All i can afford right now is paying the interest each month, which is about $180. Almost 200$ per month and not a drop goes to reducing overall debt. Okay, sorry - could not resist the little rant - sorry to thread drift. I think the goal should be for all Canadians to have free tuition, rather than questioning why FN Canadians get this. Unionist worded it best further up the thread in his wry manner. Madmax, I apologize if I seemed snarky in my initial reaction to you - especially as your intentions do seem sincere.
From: L'Î-P-É | Registered: Feb 2008
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Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560
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posted 14 August 2008 05:55 AM
quote: Originally posted by DrConway: You want to bitch about free tuition? How about the fact that free tuition gets given to anyone whose mother or father works at a university?
I don't want to drift this away from the forum's focus on Indigenous peoples, but I just have to address this remark as I believe it is rooted in ignorance. The reason we and our kids and spouses get free tuition is because we bargained for it in our collective agreements through our unions. University employees aren't just professors. They are admin staff, food service workers, and a whole bunch of other working class people too. So yes, I proudly take advantage of the free tuition I get so that I can complete the university degree that I couldn't afford to continue before. And I will proudly take advantage of free tuition for my son, should I still be working here and should he choose to attend this university. It is a benefit that my union has fought for and, just like all the other benefits my union bargains for, including decent pay, and decent health and dental benefits, I am fully entitled to it, and so is my family. [ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001
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Ghislaine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14957
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posted 14 August 2008 06:49 AM
quote: Originally posted by Michelle:
I don't want to drift this away from the forum's focus on Indigenous peoples, but I just have to address this remark as I believe it is rooted in ignorance. The reason we and our kids and spouses get free tuition is because we bargained for it in our collective agreements through our unions. University employees aren't just professors. They are admin staff, food service workers, and a whole bunch of other working class people too. So yes, I proudly take advantage of the free tuition I get so that I can complete the university degree that I couldn't afford to continue before. And I will proudly take advantage of free tuition for my son, should I still be working here and should he choose to attend this university. It is a benefit that my union has fought for and, just like all the other benefits my union bargains for, including decent pay, and decent health and dental benefits, I am fully entitled to it, and so is my family. [ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]
Everyone should get this, though, wouldn't you say? Not just FN people and unionized university employees? It is a national scandal the rates of interest that students pay on their student loans.
From: L'Î-P-É | Registered: Feb 2008
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sknguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7518
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posted 14 August 2008 10:13 AM
Question 1: originally it was because of Canada’s assimilationist education policies. Evolving from that, this undertaking continues as what’s called a fiduciary/treaty responsibility, although our assimilation is still very important to the government. Question 2: because Indians, up until about 1958, were not legally persons under Canadian law. It has evolved since then through the record of jurisprudence. Question 3: because Canada needs to control, for it’s purposes, the legal definition an Indian, therein control who actually is an Indian. Question 4: for communities covered by what are called the numbered treaties, every person receives $5.00 per annum distributed, by Indian Affairs, annually through treaty annuity days, or by later application from individuals. Question 5: noFor more historical context you could check out "White Man's Law" by Sidney L. Harring quote: posted by madmax: ... I am expecting help... [/QB]
Whah-whah.
From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Nov 2004
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kropotkin1951
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2732
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posted 14 August 2008 12:30 PM
quote: Originally posted by Ghislaine:
Everyone should get this, though, wouldn't you say? Not just FN people and unionized university employees? It is a national scandal the rates of interest that students pay on their student loans.
You highlight the reason as a society that we need a strong and vibrant labour movement. Unions in the early 60's pushed hard and struck for pensions and health benefits. When they had forced some employers to pay then our politico's in the LIB and Con parties started stealing CCF/NDP ideas like enacting CPP and Medicare. Another example is that without our labour movement we would never had that brief period in history where people expected to only work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Since our labour movement has been drastically weakened over the last two decades we see people now expecting to work 2 or 3 jobs and far more than 40 hours to make ends meet. Strengthen the working class and all boats will rise with that tide. A stronger union movement will inevitable lead to greater social equality.
From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002
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Le Téléspectateur
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7126
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posted 21 August 2008 10:01 AM
quote: I don't understand why First Nations people are continually asked answer for the questions that Canadian Law (Canadian Government) creates.
And that "canadians" tacitly support yet know nothing about. It should be mentioned madmax, that settler people in Canada have treaty rights too - like Unionist alluded to.
In some places these are specifically listed (like the number treaties) in others they are more general (like the Two Row Wampum). Either way, as Michelle pointed out, settlers do not learn about the huge number of treaty rights that we get. We only learn, usually informally by ignorant racists, that Indigenous people get this and that. Even the elite of settler society are ignorant on this front. Remember when the mayor of Caledonia made the comment about "getting cheques from the government" or something? She did it on television and must have been pretty sure of herself to say such a thing.
From: More here than there | Registered: Oct 2004
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