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Author Topic: Pins & Needles: On The Division of Labour
rasmus
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posted 16 July 2001 02:22 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just for newcomers: this is a reading group. We're reading Adam Smith's An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations. This thread will focus on chapters 1, 2, and 3 of Book I. These chapters discuss the division of labour. Anyone is invited to contribute if their comments are relevant. Feel free to join in midway.

When last we met, Earthmother was being very perceptive, and zeroed in on a troubling point:

quote:
" The habit of sauntering and of indolent careless application, which is naturally, or rather necessarily acquired by every country workman who is obliged to change his work and his tools every half hour, and to apply his hand in twenty different ways almost every day of his life, renders him almost always slothful and lazy, and incapable of any vigorous application even on the most pressing occasions. Independent, therefore, of his deficiency in point of dexterity, this cause alone must always reduce considerably the quantity of work which he is capable of performing."

So he is saying that those in assembly line work are better craftsmen and more dilligent and attentive to their work?

In the summation of the chapter he acknowledges the various 'industries' that go into the making of a woolen coat and yet this is not so very different than the efforts of the 'savage' societies where the talents of all are required.

Is this the period of time when young women were leaving home to work in the mills and such. If so how did he assume that the terrible conditions which were imposed upon these workers - some of whom were children- made them more adept or better offf than those country workman or the savages?

I meanwhile had fashioned a reply which I managed to delete, and which I will now set to retyping.

[ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


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skdadl
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posted 16 July 2001 09:05 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
rasmus, I'm a little confused. In my edition, anyway, earthmother's quote arises indeed in chapter 1, not chapter 2, and her question still makes sense in that context (it would have to if I follow it, since I haven't got to chap. 2 yet). So I won't say too much until we synchronize watches, ok?

If people don't mind, I did want to make two observations that are more supplementary than analytical (ie: I am a footnote).

My first reason for being utterly delighted -- dee-lighted! -- by chapter 1 is Smith's close attachment to, continual reference to, real human beings in real human situations. On the surface of it, as earthmother observes, what he says about people and how they work best raises for her, and us, an immediate, maybe disturbing question of how good the work is for the people. At an analytical level, I assume that's a question that will keep bothering us.

And yet in another sense this writer is so palpably, essentially, a humane thinker. I see, for instance, as soon as he starts talking about the "manufactories" of his time, proof that Diderot was right in believing that it would make an immediate, political, difference if all citizens knew a little bit about the work that all other citizens do, which is why Diderot insisted on all those long articles about the skilled crafts and trades in the Encyclopedie, most of which he wrote himself because the other philosophes were preoccupied by what they considered more elevated issues ... (Intellectuals, eh? Some things never change.)

But here it is -- even without the footnotes, I would have known that Smith had gobbled those articles up -- historically, that is such a fast pay-off for Diderot's conviction that we must know each other. I will have to do some checking to find out whether Denis (who died in 1784) had a chance to read Smith -- but boy, if he had, och, how thrilled this must have made him. I cannot tell you how happy I was for Diderot all the way through this chapter.

My second observation is literary. Is it possible to read that last para without being struck by its heightened rhetoric, especially when we get to that extraordinarily long sentence beginning "Were we to examine," mid-para, which then continues almost to the end of the para? Some crescendo, yes?

I do have some analytical comments to make, some about things that disturb my li'l socialist conscience -- but I had to register my poetic enthusiasm for this stuff first. Some day I'm going to argue quite hard that it is the very aesthetic complexity of texts like this one that puts the lie to a lot of social-scientific cliches and platitudes about the C18 ... But ok, ok, I'm signing off now, I'll go, I'll go ...

(Denis, you did it! you did it! whee!!! )

[ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: skdadl ]


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rasmus
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posted 16 July 2001 12:41 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Skdadl, as you point out, I was even more grossly confused than I figured out last night. Well it was 3:30 in the morning or something like that. Thwack, thwack, thwack! Yes, the quotation is in chapter 1. I think the page just flipped over to chapter 2 and I started writing about that. Sorry Earthmother, I'm an idiot.

Skdadl, the French Revolution, the Diderot glee.. I'm starting to piece something together. You Enlightenment wingnut.

Purely for the sake of comparison, I'd like to quote the beginning of Smith's The Theory of the Moral Sentiments:

quote:
Of Sympathy

How selfish soever man may be supposed, there are evidently
some principles in his nature, which interest him in the fortune
of others, and render their happiness necessary to him, though he
derives nothing from it except the pleasure of seeing it. Of this
kind is pity or compassion, the emotion which we feel for the
misery of others, when we either see it, or are made to conceive
it in a very lively manner. That we often derive sorrow from the
sorrow of others, is a matter of fact too obvious to require any
instances to prove it; for this sentiment, like all the other
original passions of human nature, is by no means confined to the
virtuous and humane, though they perhaps may feel it with the
most exquisite sensibility. The greatest ruffian, the most
hardened violator of the laws of society, is not altogether
without it.


Just to give a slightly different picture of Smith the man than one may have gotten from his effusive praise of repetitive work.

I agree with you that he's quite humane. I wonder how much of his knowledge of factories and so forth was obtained first hand, and how much from sources like the Encyclopédie. A bit of both, I should imagine. Clearly he takes an interest, and has some imagination for what it's like to be those people.

As for his style, I'm actually quite partial to the prose of the 18th century, which violates all the supposed rules of good taste of our own era (lots of periodic sentences like the last one of Chapter 1).

OK Skdadl, watches synchronized.... are you ready to go?

[ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


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skdadl
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posted 16 July 2001 01:02 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My footnote to para 3 says Smith undoubtedly got the number eighteen (for the distinct operations involved in making a pin) from the Encyclopedie article "Epingle" (which Diderot didn't write).

And the note to para 5, on the three different circs to which the great increase of the quantity of work is owing, says: "All three advantages ... are included in the ... Encyclopedie (1751)... 'Art.' It is worth noting that neither Smith nor the Encyclopedie stresses the role of the machine."


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Trisha
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posted 17 July 2001 01:52 AM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was impressed that Smith gave credit for advancements in manufacturing to the workers themselves. He speaks of the "specialists" finding ways to make their individual chores easier by designing or inventing better or easier ways to do the job. I can't help but wonder who got credit for these new ways of doing things. The assembly line style of manufacture certainly increased production, even with a small number of workers. This, then, must have offset the cost of so many employees to the satisfaction of the owner, allowing him to implement more ways of improving productivity and likely creating new jobs in his own and other businesses in the process, causing a rise in the economy.

I was going somewhere with this but my train of thought disembarked without me.

[ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: Trisha ]


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rasmus
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posted 18 July 2001 04:10 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Taking it from the top... the first three paragraphs you've already seen, the rest is new. I'll repost the stuff on Ch. 2 when it comes up.

Earthmother, you have with your eagle eye espied a troublesome point in this chapter. Of course, on the one hand, it must be an empirical question whether workmen performing minute, repetitive tasks collectively produce more by their subdivided labour than those who individually do each task involved in the manufacture of an object, and it might not be too surprising if the division of labour was more efficient on this account.

But what's interesting is that Smith, as a moral philosopher, does not consider the obvious impact on the human spirit of such work. This objection was already made by Smith's contemporaries: the sauntering country weaver's "occasional labour in the fields" was preferable to "those habits of intemperate dissipation in which all workmen who have no variety of pursuit are prone to indulge, " says Dugald Stewart, Smith's biographer and student. Mary Wollstonecraft countered Smith by saying that the weaver's time spent in sauntering "is the very time that preserves the man from degenerating into a brute." And J.S. Mill in the 19th century went so far as to argue that workmen who acquire the habits of several occupations early in life will actually be more productive, because their minds will be fresher and spirits lighter than those who must perform a single, repetitive task. Again, I find it surprising that Smith does not feel obliged to comment on this, though he does mention it near the end of the book. (BTW, all those references were from the excellent notes in the Oxford World's Classics edition, I didn't do special research.)

I don't know whether women had by this time begun to work in factories, but it is certain that already children as young as six would not uncommonly work in industry. This was taken by some of Smith's contemporaries as evidence of the value of the division of labour: i.e., the division of labour is so efficient, even children can work in manufacturing and earn tenpence a week.

Trisha, I agree with what you say. Nowadays, we are sort of trained to believe that scientists and technicians make advances that improve productivity, and that these improvements take place inspite of, and against the wishes of, workers. It doesn't explain why, e.g., European and Japanese workers (correct me if I'm wrong there) are still more productive than American, which mostly has to do with greater education and greater input into decision making, as I understand it. But it answers to a deep prejudice of the 20th century, that management can refine out of the production process the need for worker knowledge. So you make dumb-proof machines, like the machines at McDonalds. Only, as Eric Schlosser describes in his neato book, Fast Food Nation:

quote:
Prospective franchisees were told: "Both machines have been thoroughly perfected . . . are of foolproof design - can be easily operated even by a moron."

The fools turned out to be the designers - the machines didn't work - but faith in science and technology remains strong in the fast-food industry. It abounds with contraptions like the Lamb Water Gun Knife, which makes french fries by firing tons of potatoes out of a high-pressure hose at eighty miles an hour through a matrix of blades.


But that's not Smith's perspective at all. Smith says it's the knowledge of the workers that improves productivity. They're the ones closest to the work, they know what to do to reduce the amount of effort needed to achieve the desired result. (He seems to ignore slacking as a potential solution, which would impinge on quality, I assume.)

quote:
A great part of the machines made use of in those manufactures in which labour is most subdivided, were originally the invention of common workmen, who, being each of them employed in some very simple operation, naturally turned their thoughts towards finding out easier and readier methods of performing it.


(Note on usage: the comma has changed its function over the centuries. Its function was originally a mix of rhetorical (it often merely indicated a breathing) and syntactical, whereas now it is rigidly syntactic.)

Smith's view seems to me quite opposed to the modern-day view of "managed" capitalism as the most efficient. I think Smith would be more sympathetic to the ideal of workplace democracy. Those who are closest to the task are best able to improve their own work. Also, there is the human motivation which Smith so far ignores: those who have power over their workplace are more motivated to improve their work.

Unfortunately, both my editions mention that the story about the boy who modified the steam engine is nothing more than a fancy. Oh well.

Finally, in this context, I couldn't but be struck by Adam Smith's claim that

quote:
the invention of all those machines by which labour is so much facilitated and abridged, seems originally owing to the division of labour.

Again, this is just the opposite of the prevailing wisdom today.

Now, returning to the beginning. Smith says the "THE greatest improvement in the productive powers of labour, and the greater part of the skill, dexterity, and judgment with which it is anywhere directed, or applied, seem to have been the effects of the division of labour." Well he doesn't mention anything else but we can think of some other things -- general education, health, spiritual well-being. A sense of empowerment (the best correlate to wealth among countries is the quality of institutions, particularly democratic institutions: which came first? Who knows?). Why doesn't Smith talk about these? I gather, notwithstanding his humaneness, it's because these are intangibles that don't really fit into a project seeking to work out the laws of wealth from neat first principles. (Newtonian rationalism again.) Is it really true that ever more minutely divided tasks will go on improving overall productivity?

quote:
The division of labour, however, so far as it can be introduced, occasions, in every art, a proportionable increase of the productive powers of labour.

Again, Smith ignores the intangible of well-being and wholeness that would suggest the answer "no", the answer that Mill and Smith's contemporaries provided.

Still, it seems to be true that to a large extent Smith has put his finger on a major characteristic -- whether cause or not seems moot -- of advanced economies is the division of labour.

As skdal has noted, Smith's vision at the end of the chapter is quite grand. It put me in mind of the oldness of globalization, which has been going on since the dawn of history. Smith appreciated and marvelled at the great, complex spectacle. Question: what is it, then, that is *actually* new about the globalization we are presented with today?

Finally, Smith interestingly notes that agricultural products in richer countries aren't necessarily cheaper than those in poorer countries. Of course, he's pessimistic about the possibility of dividing labour in agriculture, but has since been proved wrong on that count (but not about his general thesis on the division of labour). With the vast mechanization of agriculture, the use of pesticides etc., productivity in developed countries has increased (but temporarily, and at what cost?). Which is why developing countries will never compete with the North in agriculture, and why the argument that they should, which we hear from globalizers, is a dishonest manipulation.

The modern idea of productivity, my editions note, makes its first appearance here in Smith. I can't find where it says that right now, though.

[edited to note the most important thing of all: Audra has demoted me from "sage rabbler" to "helper elf". It's an outrage! The embarrassment'll be the death of me! Audra, you meanie. You, you, you...big sister, you. ]

[ July 18, 2001: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


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Trisha
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posted 18 July 2001 04:30 AM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I believe that in Europe and Japan they teach a stronger work ethic than in America. There was an article, I read the short version in the Reader's Digest about a year ago, I think, that spoke of young Japanese workers almost working themselves to death with longer hours, unpaid overtime if the job got behind and their lives really focussed on the job. This could explain their greater productivity. Of course, early burnout was really becoming a problem.

Japan tried to solve part of the problem by designing a special kind of hotel for workers who couldn't always make it home in time to get enough sleep. It consists of a series of drawer-like bed compartments that are rented by the night at a reasonable cost (to me they were more coffin-like). They had a reading light, alarm clock and small coffee maker built in. There was a documentary showing these on one of the newsmagazine shows around the time the article appeared. Mention was made at the time that they were also appearing in parts of Europe.


From: Thunder Bay, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 18 July 2001 04:37 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thank you Trisha, for putting my remarks in proper perspective.

I do think the overworking culture of Japan mostly applies to white-collar workers, the sarariman. On the factory floor, the workers are made to feel more involved -- maybe made to identfiy to an unhealthy extent with the company? That's partly cultural. *Another* factor Adam Smith ignores (and Weber addresses).


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DrConway
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posted 18 July 2001 04:46 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Rasmus has written an excellent summary and exposition of the chapter. I fear I have been negligent in not reading that chapter in detail before now.

However, having rectified this, I'd like to take the plunge myself and make some notes of my own.

It is apparent, as rasmus has said, that Adam Smith grasped the notion of worker productivity and managed to portray it in relatively simple terms. The case can amply be made that in sophisticated manufacturing operations - as in his example of the pin factory, the combination of an increased number of workers (as opposed to the single craftsperson) and machinery, along with specified tasks for each worker in the chain of events that makes one item, results in enormously higher levels of output. Adam Smith even put forth the notion of the determination of worker productivity in terms of output per worker. This, as we have seen in other threads, is easily extended across the economy as a whole, or concentrated to one industry.

Smith also makes some curious comments about productivity in agriculture being lower than that of manufacturing in the industrialized nations, and he also strikes a key point that I would like to highlight:

quote:
This impossibility of making so complete and entire a separation of all the different branches of labour employed in agriculture is perhaps the reason why the improvement of the productive powers of labour in this art does not always keep pace with their improvement in manufactures. The most opulent nations, indeed, generally excel all their neighbours in agriculture as well as in manufactures; but they are commonly more distinguished by their superiority in the latter than in the former.

(Italics added)

I wish to bring this point out for several reasons. First of all, it is clear that the growth strategy of the industrial nations, as I have pointed out in an essay on the defects in some of the arguments of the free traders, has been to concentrate trade protection (in the case of the USA) or natural hegemony (in the case of Great Britain in setting up its mercantilist policy) on manufacturing in order to stimulate production of consumer and capital goods, thus increasing the rate at which reinvestment can occur to further boost material output.

Second of all, the examples given bear out Smith's statement that productivity in manufacturing can be boosted to much higher levels than in agriculture. Such examples are based on the fact that (at the time) the prices of agricultural goods tended to be uniform across nations and not much affected by industrial advantage. By contrast, consumer goods prices were affected to a great deal by the strength of the manufacturing base.

Incidentally, it appears that Adam Smith did indeed acknowledge the issue of slacking-off.

Further on, we note that improvements in the manufacturing process appear to emanate both from "learning by doing" as in the example of the boy whose use of a string to connect the valve of a machine to the piston (although it appears to be apocryphal), as well as from generalists who design the machines and witness them in application.

Other analysts, however, have written of the importance of productivity gains from workers' intimate knowledge of the way they do things and their suggestions on how to change the way things are done to make them more efficient.

As a final word, it is interesting to note Smith's continued focus on labor to the exclusion of capital. Virtually no mention is made of the process by which labor is employed, nor does he discuss the principles of capital formation (ie. investment).

[ July 18, 2001: Message edited by: DrConway ]


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skdadl
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posted 18 July 2001 09:26 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A couple of questions arising from previous contributions, and then some scattered comments from me.

First, rasmus:

quote:
Which is why developing countries will never compete with the North in agriculture, and why the argument that they should, which we hear from globalizers, is a dishonest manipulation.

I'm confused about the which and the why there -- I'm not sure still I understand the why -- ? I feel I need to understand this point, which I couldn't make on my own.

Second, anyone: A dumb question: Is it necessary that productivity should continue to increase indefinitely? Is it only neo-lib economists and ideologues who think this, as they appear to me to do, or is this a necessary and/or good thing?

I was interested in the discussion of the state of the textile trades (para 4) as Smith knew them. This led me to put together two odd historical facts that just happen to be rattling around in my memory. I know that in some parts of Britain, "the linen and woolen manufactures" had already been broken down into all those different trades Smith lists from the Middle Ages -- social and cultural life in market towns like Shrewsbury, eg, were dominated by a glorious welter of craft and trade guilds from when -- the C12 or C13? And yet in other places -- eg, the Hebrides, Lewis and Harris (home of Harris tweed) -- well into the C20, spinners were indeed weavers too; all the operations Smith lists were done communally by a small group moving from stage to stage.

The reference to the effect of "the present high duties upon the importation of raw silk" escapes me -- ?

I have smilies all down the sauntering para, partly because, as others have noted, there are so many questions to be raised about Smith's certainty of his narrow opinion here; but also because I live with a good deal of multi-tasking forced upon me, and I'm here to tell you that I've lived some of this on the pulse. Often, when I have to turn my hand from one sort of employ to the next, I am less than keen and hearty about the new work, and can I trifle! for some time!

I am left meditating on Smith's interest in the virtue of focusing on one small thing/task/stage. I also believe that such focus produces special productivity (genius, even) when the object of the focus is inherently interesting; but if I were one of those eighteen people engaged in polishing just my one bit of the part of a pin, I wonder whether I might not become even more indolent than our careless saunterer.

I was amused, too, by Smith's optimism about the progress of philosophy, similarly speeded along by its contemporary subdivision.

Something about our splendid concluding para is producing a faint ringing of bells in my memory, a faint echo of something else, but I haven't managed to dredge it up yet.

Otherwise, thank you all, guys, for all the hard work and guidance.

("helper elf" -- yeeeeeheeheeheeheehee!)

[ July 18, 2001: Message edited by: skdadl ]


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rasmus
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posted 18 July 2001 12:30 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Which is why developing countries will never compete with the North in agriculture, and why the argument that they should, which we hear from globalizers, is a dishonest manipulation.

Skdadl was wondering about this point. For it to be perfectly, sparklingly clear, skdadl, you had to have been the one who wrote it -- at 4 in the morning or whatever it was.

What I mean is that developed countries, particularly the USA, actually produce basic foodstuffs more cheaply (when comparing similar grades) than developing countries. The push to liberalize agricultural trade is justified by saying that poor countries need access to rich markets, but the real motivation is to give rich countries access to the poor markets, where they will clean up. That's my view anyhow. It's not that poor countries will "never compete" as I said. It's just that they can't now, and trade liberalization isn't about helping them to. Then I also believe there are very good reasons for all governments to try to ensure that most food is grown and consumed locally. No longer sure where this connects to Adam Smith, though. *That* was 4 in the morning.


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 18 July 2001 12:57 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
but they are commonly more distinguished by their superiority in the latter than in the former.
(Italics added)

I wish to bring this point out for several reasons. First of all, it is clear that the growth strategy of the industrial nations, as I have pointed out in an essay on the defects in some of the arguments of the free traders, has been to concentrate trade protection (in the case of the USA) or natural hegemony (in the case of Great Britain in setting up its mercantilist policy) on manufacturing in order to stimulate production of consumer and capital goods, thus increasing the rate at which reinvestment can occur to further boost material output.


I think I know what axe you're grinding here, guru-ji.

And yes, despite my little blurb above, it's still clear that differences in food prices, with a few exceptions, are surprisingly narrow across nations. In India I'd have to say that many foodstuffs cost just what they'd cost here. Well let's see, milk was about half as expensive, but the milkman usually filled it half with water. (Aside: OTOH it was buffalo's milk and tasted way better anyhow. Kinda neat that we had a dairy round the corner from our house. We could pop round any time to get milk. Actually the premium paid for getting 100% real milk was going to the milkman as he was milking the cow, watching him put it into the bottle, then buying that bottle. Some friends maintained that milkmen were so skilled in sleight of hand, that they were still able to adulterate it during this process, but that seems a bit extreme to me. ) Rice and wheat and cooking oil were not really much cheaper than here.


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DrConway
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posted 18 July 2001 01:15 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Second, anyone: A dumb question: Is it necessary that productivity should continue to increase indefinitely? Is it only neo-lib economists and ideologues who think this, as they appear to me to do, or is this a necessary and/or good thing

Economists of all stripes (and whiskers ) agree that positive productivity growth is a key to increasing economic output without requiring, for lack of a better phrase, brute force.

The difference of opinion lies in what the prescription is for low productivity growth. Right-wing economists tend to link growth in productivity to policy measures that result in more of an unrestricted free-market character to the economy. The theory goes here that corporations, in having to obey the myriad collection of laws and regulations they do, must thus divert some of their resources from capital investment. In addition, their general consensus on how investment is to be stimulated hinges on an explanation for human behavior in regard to savings that is highly sensitive to interest rates - in practice, only the ultra rich shift their savings portfolios in immediate response to changes in interest rates.

Left-wing economists have various schools of thought on the subject. James Galbraith has an excellent ditty on this, incidentally.

Some leftist economists such as Robert Reich may be termed "education supply-siders". In their view, a "skills gap" is being created in advanced economies, which is stifling productivity growth as workers struggle to retrain for these new jobs. So, to the education supply-siders, the key to boosting productivity is to maintain a highly-skilled, diverse workforce.

Other left-wing or left-leaning economists, such as Jim Stanford and Ravi Batra, point to poor capital investment and a poor savings rate (note: savings still largely forms the backing for investment even in a world that does not obey Say's Law) as the principal cause of poor productivity growth. In their view, changes to the tax system and a shift in the basic nature of where the best rates of return can be found, have caused corporations to reduce gross and net fixed investment - which in turn has reduced productivity growth.

In fairness, I would say it it a combination of these three measures that will restore productivity growth above the historical norm of (in the USA, at any rate) around 2% per year. By breaking up monopolies, by increasing education funding and by restructuring the tax system, it would become possible to restore higher noninflationary economic growth rates. (on this I will elaborate, but I'd like to not get too off-topic here)


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 July 2001 01:19 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Forgive me, but I'm still stuck on the why. Why does productivity have to grow? What is intrinsically good/necessary about growth?
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Trisha
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posted 19 July 2001 02:38 AM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Growth of productivity got me thinking of the consumerism loop. You know, make something, sell something, use something, destroy something, make something again. Increased productivity also implies improvement in the product where possible, which again brings it into the consumerism loop and into competition, which would not be possible without growth. I guess we'll find out later what Smith's ideas on these factors are.
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rasmus
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posted 19 July 2001 12:22 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Summarising chapter one's main points:

The productivity of a nation is mostly the result of the division of labour.

As labour is divided, productivity increases, because specialization enables people to more perfectly hone their skills and eliminates time-wasting "sauntering" between one job and another.

The division of labour mostly occurs through the ingenuity of workers who desire to make their tasks easier. Smith also credits the division of labour with facilitating the invention of machines, which further increase productivity. Though the makers of machines and philosophers (in Smith's time, was ambiguous between "philosopher" and "scientist" -- science was known as "natural philosophy") who tinker also play their part in improving the tools of production.

Productivity cannot be so much improved in agriculture as in manufacturing. Weathy countries will show their superior productivity in industry more than agriculture.

The great diversity and abundance of goods in a wealthy country is owed in no small part to the division of labour (and to global trade).

Moving right along to chapter 2, though I'm still interested to hear DrC's answer to skdadl's question, here's stuff I mostly had posted earlier, when I was confused about the order of the numbers 1 and 2. Hope you don't mind the repeat


The Enlightenment thinkers were great opponents of the idea of 'innatism'. This was a doctrine of Descartes', if I'm getting it right, by which he held that many of our ideas and capacities, such as mathematical ideas, were in fact innate and born with us. (The idea in fact goes as far back as Plato in the Meno.) This was repugnant to the Enlightenment thinkers for many reasons. Not least was their desire for a metaphysical view of the world in which complex events could be deduced from some primitive givens by a series of rules, as in Newton's mechanics. So there was a desire to strip what was given to the most basic. This comes in the view of the human being born as a blank slate subject to formation in his or her environment, and not as encumbered with a raft of mysterious, inexplicable inheritances.


At the same time, there were the political pressures of the nascent bourgeoisie, clamouring for a greater share in power, and expressing their desire through philosophies of political egalitarianism, particularly liberalism. It suited them well to believe that most personal qualities were a matter of formation and habit because this undercut the aristocracy's claim to hereditary superiority. (How egalitarian is the philosophy of the bourgeoisie now that it's in power? Hasn't there been a return to innatism in the form of strong beliefs in genetic determinism? Don't modern free-market liberals strongly resist the notion of environmental formation?)

Smith is very much a product of this intellectual environment. Much of his project depends on defining the "original principles" of human nature which will provide his study with its compelling logic. He makes a few big moves in this chapter.

quote:
It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their self-interest. We address ourselves not to their humanity, but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our necessities but of their advantages.


That's a very powerful picture of human nature. I think, given its spectacular effect on human history, it's right to ask how obviously true it is, and if true, whether it is indeed an original principle of human nature, and how this could possibly be known. Also, how meaningful is it without a clear idea of what is in our self-interest? Modern descendants of Smith will even describe altruism as self-interested because it "has utility" for the giver. But if "self-interest" can describe just about any transaction, what sort of work does this idea do? Another question -- assuming this picture of human nature is meaningful and true, should political and economic arrangements pander to it, as Smith assumes, or should they try to control it in accordance with other moral imperatives?

quote:
The difference of natural talents in different men is, in reality, much less than we are aware of; and the very different genius which appears to distinguish men of different professions, when grown up to maturity, is not upon many occasions, so much the cause, as the effect of the division of labour.


So here again he says something about human nature that is very much in the Enlightenment spirit -- we're all pretty much alike, our differences at birth are minor. Well if you really believe this, on what basis can you justify the great disparities in fortune that initial disparities in endowment give rise to? I don't know if Smith deals with this later, but he doesn't give any hint of it now. Certainly, there would seem to be in Smith's view a strong moral argument against grotesque disparities in wealth. What do you think?

Those seem to me the big moral questions. Then there are the economic and historical questions. What drives the division of labour? Here and elsewhere Smith suggests a few causes. In this chapter he mentions the initial slight disparities in talent, which when discovered by some person, lead them to do what they excel in, so that their surplus labour may be bartered for necessities and conveniences. Well this sounds like a pretty story, but is that really how it happened? Or did some lazy ass with a sharp stick say "make me a hut!" Smith seems to ignore violence and power relations. What was real life like, d'you suppose? Anyone studied economic history?

So then there's this idea of surplus labour. After specializing in a particular task, the labourer uses whatever of their product they do not need to barter with others. Now I start thinking, where does the capitalist fit in all this? The labourer who is a miser, or whose product is so much in demand, may begin to accumulate more than what they strictly need. I guess this is where Smith is heading.

[I've added these comments since then]

The chapter has two impressive moments, I think. One is where Smith almost surreptitiously introduces the view of human nature that I suspect will lay the foundation for the book. I've been reading bits of his The Theory of the Moral Sentiments and it's interesting just how different the picture of human nature that is presented there is. I don't think that Smith changed his mind in the meanwhile, but I do think the project of WN, like that of economics, depends on a very particular view of human nature and rationality. Insofar as that view is wrong, I think the whole subject founders. Yet the view itself has its own power, if enough people believe it; and certainly enough people believe in the self-interestedness of human nature. I think Smith's ideas not only explain (perhaps), but also have powerfully shaped the development of capitalist society. Why is a theory of human nature, if internalized, important? Because it (ideally along with the emotions, the sentiments) is the starting point for your decisions about how to behave, and how to interpret others' behaviour. Clearly if enough people assume that everyone is self-interested, this belief itself will powerfully work to create self-interested behaviour. (I know game theory is a boys' game, but it becomes very easy to see how much outcomes can change based on a strong starting assumption like the self-interestedness of agents.)

The second impressive moment is where he describes, after the prologue on bartering (isn't that dog example stupid?), how a "primitive man" will specialize in arrow-making to purchase whatever else he needs out of his surplus labour. "Surplus labour" is an impressive, big new concept, I suppose. Smith is of course only speculating about primitive societies. There was a fascination in the 18th century with explaining the origins of institutions by imagining humanity in its primitive condition. We see that in social contract theory, and in speculations on the origins of language, a very popular subject at the time. It's all part of fetishizing a mechanistic world view in which primitive givens + laws of interaction produce complex events. It doesn't mean I think Smith is wrong, it's just interesting to note that his thought is very much a product of his times.

[ July 19, 2001: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


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DrConway
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posted 20 July 2001 06:18 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Productivity cannot be so much improved in agriculture as in manufacturing. Weathy countries will show their superior productivity in industry more than agriculture.

A caveat: Adam Smith's statement on this subject may very well have been valid at the time, but I can tell you that disaggregation of the productivity statistics in the USA in particular show that productivity growth in agriculture has been at a faster rate than that of the US as a whole (5.8% per year 1950 to 1975, and 3% per year thereafter; for the US economy as a whole, productivity growth from 1950 to 1975 was about 3% per year; post-1975, 1.5% per year).

In short, mechanization of agriculture, coupled with scientific improvements in crop rotation, fertilization, etc, have produced gains in agricultural production far beyond what Adam Smith likely thought possible.


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rasmus
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posted 23 July 2001 12:52 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
At the risk of having a dialogue with myself, I am going to move on, though feel free to comment on ch. 2 (or 1 -- Prowsej?) if you like. I've just read ch. 4 and skimmed ch. 5, which requires a little more attention than I gave it. So today I'll wrap up with ch. 3 and the section on the division of labour. I think the four chapters on money and price make a natural unit to read this week. But I'll wait till tomorrow to comment. Some angel can start before me. The chapters on price and money are interesting and difficult. They're fundamental to economics, and yet there's a lot of moral meat to chew on in them.

Chapter 3 seems to make rather obvious and uncontroversial points. (Well, obvious and uncontroversial to us, I suppose; I imagine much of this book was incredibly novel in Smith's time, but one of the interesting things about reading it is how much of it we now take for granted as intuitive.) First, the larger the market, the greater the possibility for labour to be subdivided. An isolated hamlet obviously must spend most of its time meeting its need for essentials, and has neither the time nor the number of people needed to develop real specialization. Markets can grow either by an increase in population, or by the effective increase in the size of the market afforded by cheap transportation. This is the essential logic of "globalization" of the market. (But that's not the kind of globalization we're talking about nowadays, which is about the mobility of capital.) Of course, there has always been a sort of global market in luxury goods like silk, spices, and gems. But it is only goods whose price is already very high that can profitably be shipped to distant markets across thousands of miles of uncertain and hostile terrain.

I don't think there's much else that needs comment. In one of my books there is this note on the word "market"

quote:
the market: by the late seventeenth century the emphasis of the word has changed from a reference to the point of sales to the more elusive concept of consumption controlled by supply and demand, though the two meanings continue to be invoked often at the same time, with the more physical sense of a market-place nostalgically contesting the abstract ground of the later usage. At WN III.ii, for example, we discover Smith attempting to release trade from the market as place, where the market-place appears to resist the notion of 'natural' pricing.

[ July 23, 2001: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


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rasmus
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posted 24 July 2001 03:12 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Please feel free to contribute further to this thread, but I am going to start a new thread on Money and Prices, since the next four chapters make a natural unit. There I will continue my solipsistic musings anon.
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skdadl
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posted 24 July 2001 03:36 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sir, I'm here, Sir -- sorry I'm late, Sir, but the dog ate my -- oh, that's right, you know I don't have a dog ... You fall for sick grandmothers? No? Lightning strikes?

On chaps 2 and 3, just a few small observations to add.

You write:

quote:
Modern descendants of Smith will even describe altruism as self-interested because it "has utility" for the giver. But if "self-interest" can describe just about any transaction, what sort of work does this idea do?

Ah, yes, that old game. Has anyone not run into one of these guys: he announces that all human behaviour is self-interested; the well-intentioned innocent spends twenty minutes or so working to come up with examples of exceptions; but the smug fellow can redefine absolutely any behaviour as self-interested ... At which point it might occur to a student of logic and language that this is a semantic game, nothing more: define "self-interest" to equal "all human behaviour" in the first place, and, um, ... As rasmus asks, what sort of work could such a broad definition do, even if it weren't a cynical ploy?

However, rasmus, would you agree with me that Smith is nowhere near those guys -- that maybe even calling them his "descendants" is illegitimate -- -- why don't we take a leaf from John Ralston Saul and call them his bastards?

Notice that Smith does not say that we all act out of self-interest (and only that) in the first place; he says we appeal to others on the turf of their self-interest. I think that's an important manoeuvre. He also says it is in vain to appeal to others' benevolence only.

I also think it's worth remarking that this discussion arises, again, from Smith's vision of the tremendous interdependence of individuals in "civilized society." It is because "man has almost constant occasion for the help of his brethren" that he can't make friends of all of them, and must therefore appeal to them on some other basis.

I was thinking, as I read that passage, of all the rapacious people I've known who enjoy banging on desks and announcing that they "did it all themselves," that they've never "depended on anyone else for a handout," etc etc etc. Smith is clearly not their ancestor.

(Feminist note: In the image of the greyhounds pursuing the hare, the greyhounds are male, the hare female ...

What do you think "trucking" meant to Smith? It's lovely the way he uses it: "so it is this same trucking disposition" -- ?? Is this like "no truck nor trade"? But what did that mean? I often refer to myself as "trucking along," but now that I think of it, I don't know where that expression comes from either.

Smith's conviction that the "natural" differences among "men" are in fact very slight: notable. Note also that he traces the beginnings of differentiation back to the ages of 6 or 8 because, at "about that age, or soon after, they come to be employed in very different occupations." A thought: we must talk some time about Philip Aries, Ages of Childhood, yes?

Surplus labour. I'm always going to have trouble holding this in head. But this helps. Last sentence of chap 2: Another beautiful sentence -- but, as you observe, unsupportedly idealistic as regards disparity of rewards, given what he appears to regard as commonality of usefulness.

Chap 3: I had no independent observations: The extent of the division of labour must always be limited by the extent of the market (which is another way of referring to the power of exchanging). I shall walk about reciting this line until it's committed to memory.

Smith finally catches up to me here on the Scottish highlands, lack of division of labour in same. I very much enjoyed all the water history. Sometime I must talk on the reading thread about Neal Ascherson's beautiful and brilliant book The Black Sea.

[ July 24, 2001: Message edited by: skdadl ]


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DrConway
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posted 24 July 2001 09:38 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I plan to give my own analyses of Chapters 2 and 3 as rasmus has skipped to chap. 4 in another thread. I wish to comment briefly on skdadl's statement, though.

quote:
What do you think "trucking" meant to Smith? It's lovely the way he uses it: "so it is this same trucking disposition" -- ?? Is this like "no truck nor trade"? But what did that mean? I often refer to myself as "trucking along," but now that I think of it, I don't know where that expression comes from either.

There's an expression that goes "to have no truck with" - an example would be "I'll have no truck with leaving these guys behind". It loosely means "deal" or "dealings" in the context.

So in Adam Smith's time it likely meant just that. To deal, or to transact.


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rasmus
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posted 25 July 2001 02:15 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
DrConway, I'm not bowing out of this thread... I don't mind if it skips around haphazardly. I just like to see signs of life, so I move things along. I would of course be delighted to read and respond to your commentary on 2&3. Since there's still life in this thread, in fact, I'll take a day or two more to start up the other one.

skdadl:
quote:
Sir, I'm here, Sir -- sorry I'm late, Sir, but the dog ate my -- oh, that's right, you know I don't have a dog ... You fall for sick grandmothers? No? Lightning strikes?

*peers over glasses silently, impassively, without emotion, then returns to reading. After twenty seconds' pause* Do you have a question?

[I've got the frosty professor thing down.]

quote:
However, rasmus, would you agree with me that Smith is nowhere near those guys -- that maybe even calling them his "descendants" is illegitimate -- -- why don't we take a leaf from John Ralston Saul and call them his bastards?

Notice that Smith does not say that we all act out of self-interest (and only that) in the first place; he says we appeal to others on the turf of their self-interest. I think that's an important manoeuvre. He also says it is in vain to appeal to others' benevolence only.


Yes skdadl, I agree with you there. BTW, you will be very interested in the LRB article. It starts by talking about how Smith has been appropriated by modern laissez-faire ideologues, mentions the "Adam Smith problem", i.e. the apparent irreconcilability of the views of human nature in The Theory of the Moral Sentiments and in WN, and basically goes on to argue that Smith should be reclaimed by progressives as one of their own. Well I am actually overstating that part, but I can't be bothered to shade in the nuance. I don't think I'll be able to scan the piece anymore because I splashed water on it, warping the pages. So anyone who's interested, I'll send you a photocopy. It's not too heavy a read.

Back to your excellent point, skdadl. Smith doesn't say of human nature what's imputed to him by neoconservatives (as I will argue about the famous invisible hand passage too). You've precisely identified the important distinction, which I missed, blinded as my eyes were by the prevailing interpretations of Smith. Nice catch. Yes, it makes *quite a bit* of difference to say only that the baker appeals to the self-interest of the butcher. This in no way implies the simplism that humans are at root motivated by self-interest, a simplism that is at the root of Hayek's neoconservatism, and modern rational choice theory (rat choice). It leaves room open for a diversity of motivations -- which also dissolves the "Adam Smith problem", as it is perfectly consistent with the view that sympathy forms the basis of moral judgment, and that moral judgment may also motivate our actions.

quote:
I also think it's worth remarking that this discussion arises, again, from Smith's vision of the tremendous interdependence of individuals in "civilized society." It is because "man has almost constant occasion for the help of his brethren" that he can't make friends of all of them, and must therefore appeal to them on some other basis.
I was thinking, as I read that passage, of all the rapacious people I've known who enjoy banging on desks and announcing that they "did it all themselves," that they've never "depended on anyone else for a handout," etc etc etc. Smith is clearly not their ancestor.


I think you've scored another hit there. I wish I could spice it up a bit by disagreeing with you... maybe Prowsej will join soon?

quote:
A thought: we must talk some time about Philip Aries, Ages of Childhood, yes?


Ohmygod! Yes, we must. I actually have an interest in that subject, though my acquaintance with Aries is secondhand.

[ July 25, 2001: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
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posted 25 July 2001 08:47 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Disclaimer: I don't like scoring points. I don't mind if anyone else does, but doing it myself scares and depresses me.

I like doing this with youse guys because it is pure delight for me. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.


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rasmus
malcontent
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posted 25 July 2001 01:04 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi skdadl. I wasn't sure if this was ironic or fully sincere:
quote:
Disclaimer: I don't like scoring points. I don't mind if anyone else does, but doing it myself scares and depresses me.

I know what you mean about "scoring points," I think. It's an unpleasant masculine tendency, the public put-down being the most unpleasant example of it. Or am I reading you wrong here? Anyhow I didn't mean too much by the expression....

I'm also enjoying this. Not only is Smith interesting, but now I can do a virtuous, holier-than-thou shtick around neoconservatives who haven't actually read Smith. (I.e. I can score some points. )


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skdadl
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posted 29 July 2001 06:51 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Gee, I must have been in a pompous mood when I wrote that. Pay it no mind.

Winding up for 4-7?


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rasmus
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posted 29 July 2001 11:45 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Still waiting for DrC's submissions on 2&3... tap, tap, tap... *drums fingers on table*

But yes, tonight I'l go on to 4-7. I mentioned a shortcut in the new thread, if you're interested.


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DrConway
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posted 29 July 2001 02:24 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ack! I've been so busy gearing up for the PNWER shindig I forgot.
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MJ
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posted 31 July 2001 01:06 AM      Profile for MJ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm arriving late to the party here, but with a little time to catch up I think I'd like to join. I read Smith in University, several years past now, and am just pretentious enough to like to style myself a bit of an economics policy wonk, and to half-believe my own hype ; so I'm going to do some reading over the next few days and try to get up to speed.

Please everyone, try not to advance the discussion too far in the meantime...


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rasmus
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posted 31 July 2001 01:26 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh please do, MJ, and we can move back and forth with impunity. Meanwhile I am a parched man in the desert, and DrConway has the water bottle.
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DrConway
rabble-rouser
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posted 11 August 2001 04:59 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Chapters 2 and 3, away we go... *twitches whiskers*

Adam Smith starts off by commenting that humans have developed unique mechanisms for allocating resources and in forming interrelationships that depend on mutual benefit. I daresay he has more "collectivist" tendencies than the right-wingers would care to admit!

He goes on to elaborate as to how differences in the skills and talents of humans give rise to natural divisions of labor. It is, as indicated in the previous chapter, on this division of labor that advancement in the human condition hinges on, since specialization results in the collective interdependence of humans bringing forth more material output and more progress than would be possible by each person trying to work singly.

However, much to the chagrin of the conservatives who insist that all humans are inherently destined (shades of Calvinism pervade their thought, I think) to certain things - Smith remarks that a good deal of what makes people develop their talents and skills depends more on education and social custom.

quote:
The difference of natural talents in different men is, in reality, much less than we are aware of; and the very different genius which appears to distinguish men of different professions, when grown up to maturity, is not upon many occasions so much the cause as the effect of the division of labour. The difference between the most dissimilar characters, between a philosopher and a common street porter, for example, seems to arise not so much from nature as from habit, custom, and education. When they came into the world, and for the first six or eight years of their existence, they were, perhaps, very much alike, and neither their parents nor playfellows could perceive any remarkable difference. About that age, or soon after, they come to be employed in very different occupations. The difference of talents comes then to be taken notice of, and widens by degrees, till at last the vanity of the philosopher is willing to acknowledge scarce any resemblance. But without the disposition to truck, barter, and exchange, every man must have procured to himself every necessary and conveniency of life which he wanted. All must have had the same duties to perform, and the same work to do, and there could have been no such difference of employment as could alone give occasion to any great difference of talents.

To elaborate, then, Adam Smith's comments seem to imply that a society which needs, even requires, division of labor among different persons will tend to cause people to differentiate and specialize more than they would have in, say, hunter-gatherer societies where people were almost interchangeable (after all, almost any male who wasn't blind and deaf could pick berries or kill an animal with reasonable proficiency).

In Chapter 3, he further elaborates on the necessity of specialization and differentiation among people in order to bring about more rapid industrial development.

Here, however, he explores the dynamics: What makes division of labor occur? In Chapter 2, he may be said to have explored the kinematics: What happens in the division of labor?

Again, the notion of worker productivity rears its head, only here it is qualified by pointing out that material output hinges on the demand for that output:

quote:
Such a workman at the rate of a thousand nails a day, and three hundred working days in the year, will make three hundred thousand nails in the year. But in such a situation it would be impossible to dispose of one thousand, that is, of one day's work in the year (in the Highlands of Scotland - my addition).

The next section goes on to explain how the reduction of labor in transportation (yet another example of increased productivity!) boosts the interdependence of various otherwise unrelated towns and cities and increases the size of the market into which goods can be sold. It should be noted as per the caveat in the footnotes that his examples are likely specific to Great Britain, as it appears Smith was not aware of the extensiveness of overland trade in the Asian countries throughout recorded history.

Even so, his point is clear - industrial development is considerably advanced when the cost of transportation drops (whether by transporting more goods per kilometer, or by lowering the cost of labor attached to that transportation, or both).

There is some expostulation on Smith's theoretical justification for all this, by saying that where water transportation was easiest, civilizations sprung up - which is partly true, but again, as noted in the footnotes, he was not aware of other civilizations such as those that existed in Sumeria.

I'm afraid the summary I've given here is somewhat sparse and probably doesn't add much to other discussions we've had over various parts of this book. But all comments are welcome and I will be exploring further chapters four through seven as rasmus_raven has already begun to do.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 11 August 2001 11:43 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just one quick note off the top of my head, DrC, what occurs to me is that the overland trade in Asia was mostly in luxury goods -- silk, gems, and spices -- whose value relative to the high cost of transportation was still high. This wouldn't really challenge Smith's point then, would it? There were of course periods when the major towns on the silk route were well-governed, but I can't imagine that in the vast stretches of Central Asia the risk of banditry or death by the ravages of nature was ever minimal, so I'm assuming the cost of transportation was always high -- large parties, guards, accommodation costs at the caravanserais. Do the footnotes mention trade in things beside luxury goods? I'm just guessing here about the nature of the trade, I don't have solid knowledge to back me up.
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DrConway
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posted 11 August 2001 05:34 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just quickly checked and it doesn't seem that the footnotes specifically mention luxury goods, but that statement does make a kind of sense as most agricultural goods were, to my knowledge, locally produced and consumed, and manufactured goods were not universally traded either.

Now I wish I remembered more of my world history and less of my North American and European history.


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