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Topic: Harpers position on foreign credentials
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remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289
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posted 10 September 2008 10:08 PM
quote: Originally posted by Michelle: I think we should do away with the point system and make it a lottery system instead.
Interesting, like Canada is the 649? quote: If we're just going to stick people in cabs and retail and chambermaid jobs when they get here, then why are we robbing countries of their doctors and lawyers and other professionals?
To keep them exploitable. quote: Of course, foreign credentials SHOULD be recognized, don't get me wrong.
1. Foreign credential are recognized, in some of the fields you mention, such as medical, they just have to pay a small fortune to live, study for and write the Canadian and provincial standards exams. Most have spent all they have coming here. Those that have the money, can take the exams and get official recognition/designation, in fairly short order. Moreover, those that can't afford it immediately and take too long to save what they need, almost have to start from scratch if they are too long away from their field of practise. The theory being if you don't use it you lose it, and the field has moved on in the meantime. 2. With immigrating lawyers, there is studying for the laws of the new land in which you reside and for the province that you reside in. Qualifying for bar exams does not come cheap. 3. There is no standardization of certain educational certificates/degrees across Canada, let alone across the globe. We have some standardization of pre-requistes with certain countries, but definitely not all, or even a lot. A few years ago, I was part of a team, that was seeking and recruiting Drs to stem the shortfall, here in BC, there were only a handful of countries where we could seek them from, so that those arriving could be put into a position immediately. Either standardization has to be developed, with many more countries, though some countries are hesitant to do this, as then they have more potential to lose their professionals, and the investment they made with them, or there needs to be federal funding in place to afford timely entry into the Canadian certification exams. Or both.
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004
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bruce_the_vii
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13710
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posted 11 September 2008 03:22 PM
quote: Originally posted by Michelle: I think we should do away with the point system and make it a lottery system instead.If we're just going to stick people in cabs and retail and chambermaid jobs when they get here, then why are we robbing countries of their doctors and lawyers and other professionals? Of course, foreign credentials SHOULD be recognized, don't get me wrong. But this system we have of only accepting people into Canada if they're completely educated and trained etc. is ridiculous. Clearly there is just as much need in Canada for unskilled labour as there is for trades and professions. So why not make it first-come-first-serve and get a mixture of backgrounds?
My idea is to have a lottery but to target it at relatives of current immigrants in cities that are at full employment. When any city comes to full employment you could have a special movement of these people just to that city. There relatives would tend to migrate to the target city not the least of all because there were jobs. This avoids the unemployment and downward pressure on wages of gradual immigration. When there are shortages in general labour the inflation is focused on the defacto minimum wage. You could in fact delay the movement of relatives until the defacto minimum wage firms, rather than just rely on the official unemployment figure which wobbles. An expensive city like Calgary can and should have a minimum wage of no less than $12 an hour. This would decrease the disparity and working persons poverty.
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006
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DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490
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posted 12 September 2008 09:00 PM
quote: Originally posted by remind: 1. Foreign credential are recognized, in some of the fields you mention, such as medical, they just have to pay a small fortune to live, study for and write the Canadian and provincial standards exams. Most have spent all they have coming here. Those that have the money, can take the exams and get official recognition/designation, in fairly short order.
That's the sort of thing that I complain about when I say that for the last ten years or more the government keeps playing games with immigrants re foreign credentials. On paper, credentials are recognized, and the really cruel part about all this is that immigrants are often lied to and not told that in fact... well, see below. In practice, recognition is only haphazardly automatic and is often hedged and minefielded with little sneak attacks like having to spend a fortune to write an equivalency exam one has to study for on one's own time and presumably can only be written during normal working hours. I refuse to believe anything Harper flaps his lips about as far as credential recognition goes because his pals the Liberals didn't do SFA about it either. [ 12 September 2008: Message edited by: DrConway ]
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001
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bigcitygal
Volunteer Moderator
Babbler # 8938
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posted 13 September 2008 01:53 AM
quote: Originally posted by bruce_the_vii: I read one article on how businesses don't like immigrants in general. The problems with the language, the third world business practices and the lack of experience with the latest equipment make them a second choise in the competition for a specific job. So certification is just one problem.
I was wondering when your classic anti-immigrant position would show itself, bruce. Some reasons why Canada needs immigrants: quote:
The Canadian population is agingBetween 1956 and 2006, the median age of the Canadian population went from 27.2 to 38.8 years, a gain of more than 10 years over a span of fifty years. By 2056, the median age is expected to reach 46.9 years, or 20 years more than it was in 1956. A historic reversal: proportionally more seniors than children toward 2015 In 2006, 17% of Canada’s population consisted of young people under 15 years of age, 69% of persons aged 15 to 64 years, and 13% of persons aged 65 years and over. The most recent population projections show that toward the middle of the 2010 decade, the proportion of elderly might exceed the proportion of children, a historic first. Owing to population aging, and especially the arrival of baby-boomers at age 65, the proportion of elderly could reach double that of children toward the middle of the twenty-first century. Over the next fifty years, it is also expected that the group consisting of persons aged 15 to 64 years (potential workers) will represent a proportion of the Canadian population similar to what it was in the early 1960s, in the range of 60%. This is ten percentage points below the current level. Drop in the number of working-age persons per elderly person By the start of the next decade, people old enough to leave the labour market will outnumber those old enough to join it The working-age population is aging
Some fun facts of the reality of Canada: quote:
Ethnocultural diversityIn 2017, more than one Canadian in five might be foreign-born Strong immigration to Canada in recent decades has led to a rise in the number of foreign-born persons and the portion of the population that they represent. Thus, from 1986 to 2006, the immigrant population went from 3.9 million to 6.2 million, accounting for respectively 15.6% and 19.8.% of the Canadian population. If current immigration trends were to continue in the coming years, the proportion of immigrants in Canada could reach slightly over 22% by 2017. This would be equal to the highest level observed since the beginning of the last century, namely the 22% recorded between 1911 and 1931. ..... In 2017, approximately 20% of the Canadian population might belong to a visible minority group Primarily because of sustained immigration and the low percentage of Europeans among newcomers, the visible minority population in Canada has soared in the past two decades. Between 1981 and 2001, the number of persons belonging to a visible minority group almost quadrupled, from 1.1 million to approximately 4.0 million. This growth, much faster than that of the rest of the population, boosted the proportion of the population that visible minorities represent from less than 5% in 1981 to more than 13% in 2001. Under the reference scenario of the most recent projections of visible minorities, this increase will continue in the coming years, with the result that in 2017, the visible minority population would reach 7.1 million, representing approximately one Canadian in five.
StatsCan
From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005
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bruce_the_vii
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13710
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posted 13 September 2008 03:29 AM
Actually I'm not anti immigrant, I'm proworker. If you have fair wages at the bottom you can have more immigration, but that day is sometime off - if ever. I post here because it's a tough crowd. I have thought about immmigration for 17 years now and discovered economists are almost mute on the topic. I have a certain amount of publicity and immigrants that are here like my ideas. Bigcitygal is glib somedays. Once she posted she's in favour of mass die offs. You know carefully worded statements are more memorable, will be remembered for life. [ 13 September 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ] [ 13 September 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006
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bigcitygal
Volunteer Moderator
Babbler # 8938
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posted 13 September 2008 05:37 AM
quote: bruce: If you have fair wages at the bottom you can have more immigration, but that day is sometime off
What is that, "trickle-up" economic theory? Because "trickle down" worked so fabulously? bruce, did you read the stats I posted in one of my non-glib moments? Just on an "economic" basis, the population of Canada is aging, not "reproducing itself" and will not be able to sustain the current workforce, or even a reduced one as trends continue. (Those items are in quotes because I don't believe the systems of capitalism and consumerism they support are sustainable, but this is the most common argument in favour of immigration) If there isn't more immigration then the social network, what's left of it, will not be viable. Even the most rabid conservative politician knows this, not that they'd admit it to their constituents. And I am pro-die-off. Oddly enough, that's not entirely out of place in this particular argument. But please continue your policing of me. Glad you're paying attention, maybe you'll learn something someday.
From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005
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DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490
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posted 13 September 2008 06:49 AM
I think the problem with credentials here is showing us the basic hypocrisy of immigration and multiculturalism as it stands.Essentally, the government is saying "we'll accept you, all right, but on our terms, not yours, and you'll just have to live with it." It's time to go or get off the pot; the government should either open immigration up, or just not have it. Either stance would be more logically sound and more principled than the lying weaselly system we have today that gives immigrants false hope when they land on our shores. (even if a lot of us would argue that having no immigration at all is against basic humanitarian principles, please recognize that banning immigration altogether is at least a more honest statement of intent and belief) [ 13 September 2008: Message edited by: DrConway ] [ 13 September 2008: Message edited by: DrConway ]
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001
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bruce_the_vii
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13710
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posted 13 September 2008 11:49 AM
Lecturing here on babble that people in Canada should be living on $2 a day like the poor of the world is without point. It's not like it has anything to do with you either.Every Canadian knows they're blessed to be living here and not there. We are all aware of this. This country is 200 years ahead of the third world. Our forefathers built Canada and it happens to be our birthright to enjoy it. And, if you haven't noticed, the state is our community. The nation state, or what ever we have in Canada. It nurtures and supports us. In days or yore the church did that but the church is now subsidized by the state. Before there were churches there were tribes. Very oddly even though Canada is 33 million it acts like one big tribe and celebrates this at election time. Yeah, it's nationalism - and in Canada understated as a style. [ 13 September 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006
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Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594
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posted 13 September 2008 01:29 PM
American economist Dean Baker(ConservativeNannyState.org) described a similar situation in his country.Conservative nanny statists recommend Darwinian global competition among unskilled and semi-skilled workers, iow's the large majority earning the lowest wages. The ten percent base of higher paid professional workers need protecting from global competition in order to maintain the narrow base of supporters who vote for two old line conservative politcal parties monoplizing power in the U.S. and Canada. Protections for these workers plus obsolete electoral systems are synergistic in preventing an outbreak of true democracy in North America, the last bastion of political conservatism in the western world. Of course, as Baker points out, people aren't supposed to notice that such protections exist. Highly paid family physicians here(compared to Europe) and university professors and other professionals help drive up the cost of health care and education, but are by no means the largest and only reasons for the current shortage of doctors in Canada, or the skyrocketing two-tiered pricing scheme for higher education. Baker said, that in the U.S.: quote: If free trade in physicians brought doctors’ salaries down to European levels, the savings would be close to $100,000 per doctor, approximately $80 billion a year. This is 10 times as large as standard estimates of the gains from NAFTA.
[ 13 September 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004
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sanizadeh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14787
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posted 14 September 2008 04:22 PM
As an immigrant myself, I think if immigration Canada was a private business, its owner would be charged with fraud. Across the globe the benefits of immigrating to Canada are being exaggerated while the problems and issues are rarely mentioned, and the government of Canada directly and indirectly helps the misinformation. Government promotes its settlement programs as if they were really helpful. Now this is not to say Canada is not among the most immigrant friendly country on this planet; it is; however an immigrant who is spending lots of money and many years of his/her life on the immigration process, is at least entitled to receive the full picture before applying: That his foreign job experience would not count much; that his degrees may not get certified here etc. Saying that the applicant should find this information on his own just does not cut it. I remember once I was interviewing a gentleman in his 40s who had applied to our company for a low-level technician job. He had a graduate degree in managing water resources, and had worked for 20 years as a UN specialist. But he simply could not find any job here. Another time the applicant was an aerospace engineer from Ukraine with more than ten years of experience in rocket design. He was also applying for an electronic technician job. I could not hire either one as they were way overqualified. What I would like to see is to replace the skilled worker class with temporary worker class, more or less similar to the Australian system. Work with the industry to identify the specialities in need, and help the industry hire foreign workers on 3-year work visas. At the end of the 3rd year, give the workers the option to become landed immigrants. Apply the same program for foreign students who graduate from Canadian universities. In this way, the neew immigrants have already settled into Canadian society and job market and can stand on their own feet. There were some positive changes in the immigration process in the past couple of years (by both Liberal and Conservative governments) along the above lines. It needs more re-focusing of the program on immigrant settlement, than just accepting the best and the brightest. [ 14 September 2008: Message edited by: sanizadeh ]
From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2007
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mahmud
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15217
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posted 15 September 2008 05:08 AM
quote: Originally posted by bruce_the_vii:However there are lots of educated Canadians that aren't working in their field as well. Probably everyone has stories about people they know. That's sort of the labour market currently.
Yes there are. But statistically this line of thinking is hardly sustainable. Besides, it brings to mind the "counter-argument" we face when we condemn abuse of women by men: "There are women who abuse men". Anyway, what Canada needs is a planned economy. [ 15 September 2008: Message edited by: mahmud ]
From: Nepean | Registered: May 2008
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bruce_the_vii
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13710
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posted 15 September 2008 03:17 PM
quote: Originally posted by sanizadeh: What I would like to see is to replace the skilled worker class with temporary worker class, more or less similar to the Australian system. Work with the industry to identify the specialities in need, and help the industry hire foreign workers on 3-year work visas.
This is what the Conservatives have done. They have a temporary workers program that admits about 100,000 a year. They have specialties identified which they describe as an official "opinion" on shortages. Currently it includes construction workers, heavy equipment mechanics, doctors and nurses and a few others catagories. I'm not familiar with the details. [ 15 September 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006
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bruce_the_vii
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13710
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posted 16 September 2008 03:38 PM
quote: Originally posted by mahmud: Anyway, what Canada needs is a planned economy. [ 15 September 2008: Message edited by: mahmud ]
I don't know how old you are mahmud but I lived through the Cold War. The USSR had a "planned" economy but it didn't work particularly. Even though the Communists controlled everything and generally did not allow dissent the central planners were reported as saying outright planning didn't work. [ 16 September 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006
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