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One of the abiding mysteries of Canadian politics is how the NDP manages not to succeed. I say this because it seems to me they represent exactly what mainstream Canadian political culture has come to be about. What is that? It's mild social democracy — a strong central government with a positive role in social programs, balancing regional and other inequities etc. — all the things Paul Martin proclaims as his vision when he's running for office, and which the NDP can only make him deliver under the severe duress of a minority Parliament.

That isn't socialism, it isn't even democratic socialism. It's what it says: conventional electoral politics with a reasonably broad and active, though not too broad or too active, social component. ...

Is a big part of the problem Jack Layton's leadership? Sure. ... But leadership can be overrated. Ed Broadbent was supposed to be a great NDP leader, the best prime minister we never had, according to The Globe and Mail, which named him its nation builder of 2005. ...

Yet, during Ed's greatest triumph, the free-trade election of 1988, he often refused to mention free trade on the campaign trail, even though he had said he feared free trade would mean the death of Canada. His strategists had decided the issue might help Liberals win seats and harm their own chances. They thought they could win on Honest Ed's integrity, so they made sure he didn't say much about the great issue of the day, an odd thing for Mr. Integrity to do.

Instead, Ed attacked Liberal leader John Turner, lending invaluable aid to the pro-free-trade campaign run by Brian Mulroney and helping give us the deal Ed himself said would lead to national demise. That's when labour's distrust of the NDP, now laid on Buzz Hargrove's shoulders, began. ...

Politicians almost never tell us what they're really thinking. ... It would be refreshing to hear someone break that code; maybe it would even win votes.

What would I like to hear Jack Layton say when he sums up at the end of next week's debates? How about: Hold your nose and vote for me.

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Salutin repeats the old myth that the NDP was soft in opposing Free Trade in 1988 (I was a candidate, and I can assure you that we were not) and that attacking the Liberals was somehow wrong. Well, time certainly proved that the Liberals' "opposition" to Free Trade was little more than a convenient slogan of the moment.

[ 07 January 2006: Message edited by: obscurantist ]

Rather than attack calls for "strategic voting", can we perhaps examine the NDP's record of "strategic campaigning"?

I still shudder when I recall the public vilification of Svend Robinson in 1999, first when he recanted his support for the bombing of Serbia, and then when he dutifully presented a constituents' petition calling for God to be taken out of O Canada (recall that He had only found His way in when the words were re-written in the late 1960s). Whom was the NDP leader of the day hoping to win over by relegating Svend to the caucus back bench? The moral majority?

Similar frissons travelled down my spine when I heard Jack Layton's defence of private clinics and now his call to crack down on crime.

Holding my nose no longer helps. The aroma just gets stronger.

[ 07 January 2006: Message edited by: unionist ]

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Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:
Hey, I was a kid too (seriously, when I was 23 I looked 17)

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Holding my nose no longer helps. The aroma just gets stronger.

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For you, Mr. Salutin, and anyone else who thinks the NDP just ain't radical enough:

Web Site of the
Communist Party of Canada (Marxist-Leninist)

There! Now you don't have to complain about the NDP anymore. Vote with your conscience, dude.

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]

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Whom was the NDP leader of the day hoping to win over by relegating Svend to the caucus back bench?

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Ed campaigned on the "Bobsy twins of Bay Street" IIRC (or was that '84?) and I remember a cutesy ad with Grampa walking along a stream with grandson.. and at the end the youngster asking "Grampa, Can I vote for Ed Broadbent too?"

Anyway, it allowed John Turner to seize the issue as the "cause of his life". (I know, I know ...the only "cause" that Liberals believe in is staying in power).

True the NDP ended up with an all-time record number of seats (43), but they allowed the Liberals to make a recovery as well...that they sure as hell didn't deserve.

Does anyone ever think that maybe the problem with a political party that claims to represent the working class is that there's no working class people leading the party?

Lookit, when push comes to shove, people protect thier own. We raise the spectre of Robin "Vlad the Impaler" Sears. Let's revisit those years. Read Bob Rae's book, read the pages concerning the flip flop on Public Auto Insurance.

Who garnered the overiding concern of then President of the Party, Julie Davis? Well, women just like her who dressed well, and worked in offices, and not working people (including, remember, women) who were-- and continue to be, gouged and ripped off by auto insurance companies.

And Rae has drifted back to his capital L liberal roots where he was spawned.

And, as much as I currently support Layton and think in the world of real Canadian Politik that he was the best choice to lead the NDP at the last convention, and to date, I am under no illusion that in times of crisis, Layton will protect his own before he gives a thought to my sorry working class ass.

And Salutin? This is the mainstream voice of the left? Oh please. The man's never worked a day in his life. Columnist. Money for old rope. The man's a leftest for the same reason H.G. Wells was: to create more societal freedom for women so they would be easier to get in the sack.

Oh Canada is such a small country, so few degrees of separation. We've all met each other here, or, if not, know someone who has met the few we haven't.

Bob Rae was afraid of me the first time we met, and it wasn't because of anything I said or did.

It was because of the way I look. That unpolished, working class look. Julie Davis wasn't afraid of me, she was patronizing instead.

And Jack wasn't afraid of me, he was actually nice when we shook hands, introduced himself-- and then looked past me for someone else more important to button hole when I introduced myself with my working class, London East accent that told him he'd made a mistake, I wasn't anyone particularly important after all.

No one in this election, or for many elections provincially or federally, speaks to working class people, gives voice to working class issues.

The left, the NDP appeals to liberal minded academics.

But my made for radio face? My stained teeth? (except for the two missing ones on the upper right side) My can't afford a personal trainer and cook physique?

Even if I was as smart as some think I am, I wouldn't get very far in today's politics.

It's funny. Layton and others in the NDP talk about new politics, about paternalism, but even this party can't break out of the top down mold.

The NDP and Layton still want to tell working Canadians what they think working people need, instead of just articulating what working people tell them they need.

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Tommy Paine for a common sense leader of the NDP!

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[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]

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It's funny. Layton and others in the NDP talk about new politics, about paternalism, but even this party can't break out of the top down mold.

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I don't know about anyone else, but I find that Layton is playing the role of plastic politician perfectly.

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Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
Gee wiz.

Does anyone ever think that maybe the problem with a political party that claims to represent the working class is that there's no working class people leading the party?

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You're playing the old politics game yourself. Salutin is telling the truth about our current electoral system whereas you're going willy-nilly with the good ol' personal attacks.

There are huge numbers of unorganized workers in this country.

The numbers of unionized workers are down partly because labour itself has changed. You go on pretending that labour means ONLY industrial and skilled-trades workers, Tommy, but some of us are beginning to find that a really questionable form of snobbery - and an obviously outdated one too.

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Writers and journalists too, n'est-ce pas?

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The NDP is a party that typifies small l liberalism. This form of liberalism leads to liberal socialism. But the same forces that stymied 19th "old liberalism" and brought in the Welfate State are now stymying welfare statism and preventing the NDP from breaking outr of the statist straight jacket.

We cannot advocate a utopian solution but it would be possible to create new institutions from a more liberal political attitude to what can be done. Jack Layton and David Miller will look at public private partnerships because they are a way to break teh stranglehold of patronage that already exists.

Hospitals by and large are owned by private foundations. Old age homes and seniors residences are already almost totally owned by private corps, Medical druigs and their patents are completely owned by private companies. Only the services are paid for by public funds. Why not intercede in this lucrative market and direct some of the whopping profits our healthcare system generates for these private businesses back into the system?

Working class people (which, btw, I never limited to unionized, industrial workers, sorry to set fire to your straw man there) are very politically conscious. It's why they don't participate that much. Unionized or otherwise. Currently, what would be the point?

Brebis, as is her habit, brings up a good point. Teachers, and others indeed do work. How do I define working class? It's more than what you do for a living. Surely, those who mine, fish, farm and manufacture drive the economy--create the wealth--put food in your kid's bellies-- but they can't do that without teachers or nurses or doctors, and many others.

And wages come into play. Doctors ain't working class.

And some teachers...oh, hell, most teachers aren't , not because of wages, or what they do for a living but because they'd be morbidly embarassed to describe themselves as working class.

You might as well classify us according to height. At least that would be an objective standard that everyone could understand.

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Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
Well, it's people who have no power, and more or less live from pay to pay, their best hope being that those who do have power will stop fucking them around for a day or so once and a while.

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There are people who have no power who are not working class; there are working class people who do not have to live from pay cheque to pay cheque; and hope has nothing to do with anything.

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Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Does ownership of the means of production come into play?

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What Yaletown is thinking may be key. I'm not looking over their shoulders while they vote.

Coal Harbour may already be lost to Harperland.

If I already knew, I guess they'd be paying me the big bucks!

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Originally posted by Jacob Two-Two:
Dude! Definitely vote for Svend. His personal flaws aside, the man is an awesome MP. You're electing someone to do a job, and he is great at that job, while Hedy is a useless non-entity. The quality of people in parliament does matter. It's not just about who appeals to you, but who will contribute the most.

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However I agree with Tommy (and Al Q). The NDP presently doesn't know what it is or who it stands for. It's lost it's roots. Unfortunately since none appears to be a visionary (Harper is a closet fascist, Martin an apologist for big business) Layton starts to look better. However the greatest evil is Harper....so I say vote strategically. Hold your nose, breath or whatever....

Edited to remove psssible "libel" issues.

[ 14 January 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]

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Yep trendy Svend is an accomplished thief, liar and hypocrite in the vain of the "rev." Jesse Jackson.

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Oopsies.

Now, that is one thing that rabble.ca does not need - a lawsuit from Jesse Jackson.

Peech, you have just published a number of charges against Jesse Jackson that you cannot substantiate: notably, that he is a thief and he is a fraud (ie: according to you, not an ordained minister).

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Originally posted by skdadl:

Oopsies.

Now, that is one thing that rabble.ca does not need - a lawsuit from Jesse Jackson.

Peech, you have just published a number of charges against Jesse Jackson that you cannot substantiate.

I don't think rabble.ca can afford you, Peech.

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Actually Skadl I removed the items you feel might be offensive. But for your information it is a well known fact that the Rev. Jesse Jackson never completed his divinity studies:

Jesse Jackson

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... was born as Jesse Louis Burns in a poor household in Greenville, South Carolina. He married Jacqueline Lavinia Brown on December 31, 1962. After attending the University of Illinois and North Carolina A&T University, he studied divinity at the Chicago Theological Seminary (he did not finish his divinity studies at the time, but was awarded a Master of Divinity in 2000 based on those studies and life experience), and began to organize in the Southern Christian Leadership Conference under the influence of Martin Luther King, Jr..

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Now "forget about" JJ what about the election!

[ 14 January 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]

I was kind of impressed with the NDP campaign when it began and I don't think a few months delay would have changed much in how this election is playing itself out.

However, I have to say that the more I hear about the NDP's law and order platform, their new war on drugs, attacks on Martin for criticizing US policy, plans to pay down the debt, near silence about the danger of a Harper victory, etc. etc. the more uneasy I'm becoming with the direction their campaign has gone.

It's as if it doesn't matter to them which of the other two parties wins. Tweedly-dee and tweedly-dum. I guess there's nothing new in that.

I still think they could make some small gains, maybe up to 6 or 7 new seats but I think they may be in a rut where each election is preparation for the next election.

How long can they play it safe and not distinguish themselves from the pack?

[ 14 January 2006: Message edited by: Polunatic ]

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Originally posted by Polunatic:
I'll be voting NDP banker in St. Pauls even though he doesn't have a hope in hell. Got one of those megasized signs on my puny front yard. Nor does the tory Peter Kent have much of a chance imho.

I was kind of impressed with the NDP campaign when it began and I don't think a few months delay would have changed much in how this election is playing itself out.

However, I have to say that the more I hear about the NDP's law and order platform, their new war on drugs, attacks on Martin for criticizing US policy, plans to pay down the debt, near silence about the danger of a Harper victory, etc. etc. the more uneasy I'm becoming with the direction their campaign has gone.

It's as if it doesn't matter to them which of the other two parties wins. Tweedly-dee and tweedly-dum. I guess there's nothing new in that.

I still think they could make some small gains, maybe up to 6 or 7 new seats but I think they may be in a rut where each election is preparation for the next election.

How long can they play it safe and not distinguish themselves from the pack?

[ 14 January 2006: Message edited by: Polunatic ]

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I agree. At least I have a good local candidate in my riding (Toronto Center), Paul Summerville sounds awful. And the NDP campaign is just awful. Layton's law-and-order platform is outrageous, was not decided on by the rank-and-file and it's a knee-jerk reaction to the Boxing Day shooting in downtown Toronto. Duceppe is articulating more of a social democratic platform than Layton is!

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A useful definition would try to do more than just describe a stereotypical member of the group; it would be based on an objective analysis of the economic relationship of the class to the economy as a whole.

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Well that was done, and a bunch of other stuff.

The only thing for it, I'm afraid is to let me arbitrarily decide.

First off, pedants are deffinately not welcome, regardless of their relationship to the economy as a whole.

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Originally posted by the bard:

Duceppe is articulating more of a social democratic platform than Layton is!

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The right wing in this country have skillfully put the blame on lack of expendable income on taxes, when in fact that's not what is plaguing working class people.

No one has pointed out that parsimonious employers aren't allowing real growth in wages, in spite of what must be huge productivitiy gains through automation in the last twenty years.

On the expenditure side, working class people are at the mercy of piratical pricing by manufacturers, resource industry, insurance industry and some professionals.

As for Paul Summerville, the NDP candidate in my riding, I used "banker" as an adjective. I wasn't suggesting that he's awful but don't know much about him. It wouldn't matter who ran in this riding, the NDP wouldn't win it this time.

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Not to mention Haiti. Layton has had nothing to say about it in this campaign.

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