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Author Topic: Are we nicer than Americans?
oldgoat
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posted 17 May 2003 07:33 PM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't want to get into an anti American thing here, because I'm not. (I'm just anti Republican)
However, for obvious geo-political reasons, comparisons can be interesting.. I liked this article in the Toronto Star today, and I'm looking forward to reading the book.

From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 17 May 2003 09:22 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
This dreary thesis of a nation fumbling toward its own demise has been aggressively marketed by a number of Canadian pundits lately, and it's what a great many Canadians have no doubt come to believe. But Adams is on the case now, and he says it ain't, er, isn't so.

Hah! Eat THAT, Stephen Harper! Eat THAT, Mike, Ernie, Gordo and Ralph!

It would seem that Canadian cultural values have not been eroded away even under the relentless right-wing assault on these very values in a concerted effort to turn us into USAians. This is a good portent of the future; Canadians by and large still believe in the solutions the NDP offers and which the Liberals used to offer, even if they don't vote NDP due to perception problems.

How can the NDP use this to its advantage? Maybe Jack Layton's next press conference could use this as leverage to highlight the similarities between what Canadians believe should be fixed that the Liberals broke and what the NDP wants to do.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 17 May 2003 10:05 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't think that Canadians are inherently nicer; it's just that our circumstances are different (at this time). Circumstances can change. Canadians, like all peoples react with fear to crises. I think that 9/11 brought out the worst in the American character; but would Canadians have reacted differently? Or, would the Americans have reacted differently had Gore been President?

Americans and Canadians have different myths. They have guns; we have snow. They have to defend themselves from enemies; we have to survive the winter.

What is also interesting is the different character of people from different parts of the country. New Yorkers are distinct from Texans; Newfoundlanders are different from Albertans; and Quebec is distinctly different from all of the above. Thus, people from Minnesota might have more in common with people from western Ontario than others from Arkansaw. Maybe?


From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 17 May 2003 10:15 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There was a review of this book in the Globe as well.

I didn't find it on the site, but I'll quote something:

quote:
Over the past decade, Americans have retrenched: More Americans, especially the young, have migrated to the exclusion quadrant [apparently with social values polling methodology, there are four "quadrants": are people attracted to status and security, to authenticity and responsibility, exclusion and intensity, and idealism and autonomy], a survival of the fittest ethic, so much so that in 2000, at 31% of this sample, this was the largest category on the American socio-cultural map. Adam's findings are consistent with the work of Robert Putnam, who in Bowling Alone amassed evidence of the decline of America's community. The culture war, as Adams writes, is not between southern based religious conservatives and 1960's style boomers, but, rather, between fast growing, nihilistic, competitive and even violence prone third of Americans, and everyone else. The analogy is Blade Runner, not a rerun of Easy Rider.

In Canada, the trend is radically different. Nearly one half of Canadians are in the idealist/autonomy quadrant, with Quebeckers and British Columbians leading the way, more than double the percentage of Americans who express these values. Richard Gwyn, in his 1995 book Nationalism Without Walls, wrote about Canada being a "post modern dominion," and that is a thesis Adams's data confirms.

I have been teaching part time in the United States for nearly 20 years, and my personal experience is in complete accord with Adams's statistical insights. When I first began teaching at Harvard, the New Deal coalition continued to be in place and liberal politicians such as Edward Kennedy were still major figures and even potential presidents. Today, the old Roosevelt tradition is gone the way of the dodo, to be replaced by a tax cutting, neo conservative, fundamentalist-religious base centered in the south. Moderates such as Bill Clinton can still win, but only by appropriating a parts of the agenda of the conservative majority.

In Europe and in Canada, meanwhile, the liberal-social democratic centre has not only held, but it has expanded. When Canada diverges from our neighbour on issues such as the ICC, land mines, Iraq or marijuana it is because our politicians our responding to Canadian value systems, just as Bush responds to the values in his country. Demography may not be destiny, but values certainly are


I fudged the last paragraph a bit to alleviate typing. The reviewer is named Thomas S. Axeworthy, an adjunct lecturer at Harvard and was Principal Secretary to the evil and corrupt liberal Liberal, Pierre Trudeau.


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
sophrosyne
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posted 18 May 2003 02:47 PM      Profile for sophrosyne     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think that was a very insightful and accurate post Cougyr.
From: British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 18 May 2003 08:37 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks, sophrosyne.
From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 19 May 2003 12:33 AM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I dunno nothin' about no quadrants. It's been my experience that of course individual Canadians and individual Americans run the full spectrum. But Canadian policy is surely nicer than American policy, and by and large there seems to be a better dynamic in Canada than I've found in the U.S.

Essentially, what I see as wrong with American society is the Great Myth so well entrenched by Puritanism and other Calvinist doctrines: if something bad happens to you, it's your own fault. The wealthy are well-off because they deserve to be. The religious determinism has faded somewhat, but is replaced by a near-religious adherence to free-market doctrine, which states that anyone can accomplish anything if they try hard enough. If you're poor, obviously you didn't try hard enough. You can imagine what a burden this places on the disadvantaged.

This doctrine leads in turn to the wide split between the ultra-rich and the rest of us. This leaves a lot of people in the "lives of quiet desperation". People who are stressed tend to react in various ways, may of which are predictable. Some look to authority - religious and governmental - with childlke faith, hoping that Daddy will protect them. Some let wishful thinking ease the pain: they think they can win the lottery, or tap New Age power, or start their own business that will be the next Microsoft. Some are desparing and bitter, seeing the hypocrisy around them, but feleing helpless to change it. Others become radicalized - and the more extreme the conditions, the more radical the ideas.

Still others - and this group may overlap any of the above- become more provincial, trying to close the doors of a smaller world around them, where they can feel safer. Tribalism of various sorts grows well in such a climage, be it super-patriotism, religious or ethnic bigotry, or any similar manifestation. Those who don't fit in with the tribal mores are a threat when people feel they're on the edge of survival - they can't afford risks, and so they can't afford "outsiders", deviants, and nonconformists. Understanable, but it can get very, very nasty.


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 20 May 2003 01:47 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's a cmoment from the author of Fire and Ice, Neighbours growing apart:

quote:
Even before these momentous events, our research was showing us the cultural seeds of divergent American and Canadian decisions. In 41 of the 56 comparable trends in our data, we found strong evidence of dissimilar values in Canada and the U.S. On 24 trends, the gap actually widened between 1992 and 2000. At a time when the political, economic and technological forces of globalization suggested convergence, Canadians' social values were becoming more distinct from those of Americans.

The portrait of these two distinct societies of North America starts with a comparison of their religious convictions. We know that Christian fundamentalism has far deeper and more enduring roots in the U.S., particularly in the Bible Belt, than in Canada. Yet not so long ago, we were more conventionally religious. In the mid-1950s, 60 per cent of Canadians told pollsters they went to church each Sunday; the proportion in the U.S. then was only 50 per cent. Today, only a fifth of Canadians claim weekly church attendance, whereas the proportion in the U.S. is four in 10. A 2002 Pew Research Center poll found religion to be important to six in 10 Americans (the highest proportion of all the developed nations it surveyed) and to only three in 10 Canadians, a rate similar to that found in Britain and Italy. In less than a generation, Canadians have evolved from being much more religious than Americans to being much less religious.


Hmmm, reading this contrasts sharply with this other guy.


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 21 May 2003 09:33 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Most USians I have encountered are friendlier, more generous and more open hearted than most Canadians I know.

Unfortunately, nice as these same people are as individuals, they all seem to have suffered the same collective lobotomization regarding their country. Get rid of their incredibly deeply-felt patriotism and they are wonderful people, from what I can tell.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 May 2003 12:53 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know where else to post this, but this thread seems appropriate
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 23 May 2003 01:25 AM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
al-Qa'bong quote "Unfortunately, nice as these same people are as individuals, they all seem to have suffered the same collective lobotomization regarding their country. Get rid of their incredibly deeply-felt patriotism and they are wonderful people, from what I can tell."
______________________________________
That's my experience, too. Most of my south of the border friends and relatives are really friendly people; they just have a blind spot which they call patriotism. It's simplistic patriotism which doesn't brook with contradictions. The defenders of the Alamo are seen as patriots and freedom fighters rather than as invaders in a foreign country.

From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged

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