Author
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Topic: hypermasculinity
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Cartman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7440
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posted 16 December 2004 08:42 PM
I have always found "hypermasculinity" to be very odd. I do not think it is "natural", but rather, a dramatic form of acting. Ironically, dramatic acting is considered the opposite of masculinity.Why do you think some men act so masculine? What are the "payoffs" for acting this way? I am still learning the ropes so I apologize if this is in the wrong section of babble.
From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004
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Cartman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7440
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posted 17 December 2004 01:04 AM
quote: I suspect I know what Cartman means, but I'll let him respond to remind's query before I reply.
I can give out specific examples, but they are contextual or situational.Example. Last Xmas I go to a so-called professional supper with five lawyers and two academics. These "professional" lawyers spend an inordinate time talking and laughing about homosexual clients they have exhausting every joke/situation etc. they can recall. Gay men are depicted as stupid, whimsical, insane, effeminate etc. particularly in masculine situations like hunting and fishing. I mean for hours non-stop. The two academics apologized profusely for their behaviour when I left. I thought less of them for having such friends. Honestly, it made me sick and I am not a moral crusading type. Example. A boss I once had was a very supportive, nice person. He was very good to his employees and would go out on a limb for them. Amongst others, however, he made constant jokes in a much lower voice with a more stoic face about women, poor people, Hutterites and Indians. Again, they were depicted as dumb, ineffective, ugly, etc. People thought he was hilarious. Example. A "normal" even gentle employee I once had (decent worker) used to get into fights all the time and pick on weaker people in bars. He would beat people to a pulp. As a retail manager, it was hard to discipline an employee who had bruises and cuts on his face, but it was not good for business y'know? He always had to be really masculine in a group. Apparently, he was taking hair styling lessons, and behaved very differently amongst women (more gentle). Later, I heard he was a drag queen but this might be BS. Anyways, what is the difference between a male in drag acting super effeminate and a male acting super masculine if this is not who they really are? They are both pretending to be someone else. The right seems to mock marginal groups because they are not acting "normal" (i.e. supposedly homosexuals) but the right also "acts" (i.e. mean, tough, gun totin, bad guys). With a drag queen, we know that the person knows that they are just acting, but in the latter they are acting out the persona and living it! Is this not more deceitful?
From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004
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verbatim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 569
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posted 17 December 2004 01:59 AM
That's what I thought you meant, Cartman. I have male friends who are all over that spectrum, and invariably the behaviour seems to be tied to their sexual self-image. In most instances, I figure it's a case of "the lady doth protest too much." Many men seem to be most concerned that they be seen as voracious sexual consumers by other men, and only secondarily so by women. However, it also seems to be less and less acceptable for a man to go to the same lengths to praise his manliness in the presence of women. I know of more than a few straight guys who are absolute pigs when among only men, but the women who know them would never guess it in a million years. These are the guys who probably feel that they were born a generation or two too late, and would have been the frenetic bottom-pinchers of yesteryear. They are relegated now to having absurdly large private porn collections. Remind, it's interesting that you repeatedly refer to scratching onesself, spitting, and such, because although those behaviours used to be considered the sole domain of men, I have found that the latest generation of women indulge in them to an almost equal level. I regularly see teenaged girls hawking loogies and belching loudly at bus stops now, and they don't seem to be the least bit concerned as to how "un-ladylike" that behaviour is. Apparently now it's just cool to spit on the sidewalk, and girls can be just as cool as boys. Good on them ...I guess. [ 17 December 2004: Message edited by: verbatim ]
From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001
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steffie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3826
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posted 17 December 2004 08:12 AM
Sexual issues aside, the men I have met who display "hypermasculine" traits/behaviours are usually not very emotionally mature. What I mean by this is that they were not taught as children that feelings are acceptable, that women are valid equals deserving respect, that men can be afraid, sad, etc. The result, in my experience, is a man whose only means of communication is brutish and physical. Of course if these are the only known options, they end up either fighting or sexually acting out. Very sad indeed. These are the types of men who steel my resolve to raise a considerate, well-rounded and emotionally responsible male child. I have seen the female version of "hypermaculinity" as mentioned above. I don't, however, have a reasonable explanation for it. If I had to guess I would say these girls are living what they have learned from the adults around them. [ 17 December 2004: Message edited by: steffie ]
From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003
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Suzette
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7708
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posted 17 December 2004 08:50 AM
quote: Fidel said: Some males produce more T than others. I don't think it explains all of the "hyper-masculine" effect, no, but there's a strong link.
I'm not sure that testosterone is so much the culprit here as social conditioning. In aggressive behaviour perhaps, but the other types of behaviour discussed here - the ball-clawing and so on - are purely a matter of choice. Why don't I spit on the street even if I felt the urge to do so? Because my mother told me it wasn't nice. quote: Remind said: I do not think all men who do those types of things are being being deceitful, they really think that is who they are, or at least think that is who they should be. (emphasis mine)
Well, now we're getting somewhere! This type of behaviour, to my mind, just reeks of "Look at me! Look at me! I'm real manly! Honest! (But worrying that my mates think I'm a nancy keeps me awake at night.)" quote: verbatim: ...invariably the behaviour seems to be tied to their sexual self-image. In most instances, I figure it's a case of "the lady doth protest too much."
Exactly.I have a friend who is as "manly" as they come; he's been with the Army for 20 years as a paratrooper, is a mountain climber, is tall, well-built and a black belt in some martial art or other. He's also quietly spoken, humble, courteous, thoughtful and sensitive. This combination struck me as a bit unusual when I first met him, but as I came to know him better I realised that it's simply because he's completely at ease with himself. He doesn't have anything left to prove to himself or anyone else. And wasn't he a breath of fresh air to have around?
From: Pig City | Registered: Dec 2004
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remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289
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posted 17 December 2004 07:32 PM
No, it was scratch, then adjust! I quite honestly have not seen too many girls around here, or boys for that matter let alone men and women do this. However, when I moved from Saskatchewan, to northern BC many decades ago, I was stunned to put it mildly. I moved away after a few years because I could not get used to the culture differences. After living on VIsland for many years we moved to the interior. Later his job took us to 3 other communties further north for a couple of years each move. I moved south for personal reasons a 3 years back, and refuse to move back north because of the sexism than runs through everything. Though my husband continues to work and live in the north and comes down for extended visits every couple months. Down here in Victoria, I have just not seen either sex doing the manly man things I noted. quote: Originally posted by verbatim: Remind, it's interesting that you repeatedly refer to scratching onesself, spitting, and such, because although those behaviours used to be considered the sole domain of men, I have found that the latest generation of women indulge in them to an almost equal level. I regularly see teenaged girls hawking loogies and belching loudly at bus stops now, and they don't seem to be the least bit concerned as to how "un-ladylike" that behaviour is. Apparently now it's just cool to spit on the sidewalk, and girls can be just as cool as boys. Good on them ...I guess.
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004
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Debra
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 117
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posted 17 December 2004 07:39 PM
quote: Originally posted by steffie: Sexual issues aside, the men I have met who display "hypermasculine" traits/behaviours are usually not very emotionally mature. What I mean by this is that they were not taught as children that feelings are acceptable, that women are valid equals deserving respect, that men can be afraid, sad, etc. The result, in my experience, is a man whose only means of communication is brutish and physical. Of course if these are the only known options, they end up either fighting or sexually acting out. Very sad indeed. These are the types of men who steel my resolve to raise a considerate, well-rounded and emotionally responsible male child. I have seen the female version of "hypermaculinity" as mentioned above. I don't, however, have a reasonable explanation for it. If I had to guess I would say these girls are living what they have learned from the adults around them. [ 17 December 2004: Message edited by: steffie ]
hmm my son could be called hypermasculine.\
I was told by one set of experts that it was because I was a feminist and he had to be hypermasculine to compensate, by another set that because I was a stay at home mom I was hyper feminine and he had to compensate. Sometimes things are just because that's the way they choose to be. But it is ever so much easier to blame mom. [ 17 December 2004: Message edited by: Debra ]
From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001
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verbatim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 569
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posted 17 December 2004 07:47 PM
quote: Originally posted by remind:Down here in Victoria, I have just not seen either sex doing the manly man things I noted.
Well, wait for a bus in front of a high school right after classes let out, and I guarantee* you'll see it. I once watched a group of girls outside of Oak Bay high see who could hit the centreline first. I've seen it happen a number of times downtown too.I'm not saying all kids are walking around hanging badges off of every projection to the point where they have to rehydrate every ten minutes -- just that spitting and belching are no longer the domain of rude boys (i.e. like when I was their age). *Guarantee void where prohibited by law. Like here at babble.
From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001
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nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402
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posted 17 December 2004 08:08 PM
Has anybody watched car shows, like Overhauling? The guys in there are caricatures. (I know this, because the promos come on, ad nauseum, during the home-decorating shows i watch.) Bulging, tattooed biceps, ripped - not cut - off teeshirts, shaved or crew-cut heads. And you see similar caricatures walking around in real life. They don't necessarily scratch or spit, but they are obsessed with speed, power, size - extremes. Their conversation is mostly about machinery, rough sports and getting the better of somebody. I suspect that this is the image those wimpy lawyers are trying to imitate. Or at least, this is the character to whom they'd like to ingratiate themselves - when Mr T isn't actually in the room. In Dubya's case, the model is more likely Ronald Reagan as a WWII flying ace in some old movie. Anyway, these are icons of masculinity. It's not about function or status or ability; it's about image. Men who don't feel secure in themselves, or in their social role, and/or are conscious of having fallen short, kiss up to the most accessible icon within their cultural ken. As the popular culture of North America becomes more polarized, more extreme, more simplified, more confrontational, expect a lot more of this posturing.
From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001
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remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289
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posted 17 December 2004 08:38 PM
quote: Originally posted by nonesuch: Has anybody watched car shows, like Overhauling? The guys in there are caricatures. (I know this, because the promos come on, ad nauseum, during the home-decorating shows i watch.) Bulging, tattooed biceps, ripped - not cut - off teeshirts, shaved or crew-cut heads. And you see similar caricatures walking around in real life. They don't necessarily scratch or spit, but they are obsessed with speed, power, size - extremes. Their conversation is mostly about machinery, rough sports and getting the better of somebody.
Actually, I like watching Overhaulin sometimes. Not for the men but for the cars. I watch Holmes on Homes for the masculine arm thing. They just redid Lance Armstrong's GTO a few weeks back, and it so reminded me of my first purchased car. A 1970 GTO Judge 402 Blue Block, a sweet car. I divorced my first husband because he made me trade it in (kidding a bit, but it was the first thing he "insisted" on doing in our short 6 month marriage) I also suspect my occasional watching it is because I grew up in Service Station/Parts Store/Restaurant settings though. Having said that, there really are car geeks out there who live and breathe all types machinery, their affinity is just as real as anybody else's passion. Having said that, some are also manly man brainwashed by images sold to them in car mags and car/girlie calendars!
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004
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verbatim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 569
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posted 17 December 2004 08:59 PM
Ah, for me it's all about the existential questions, as usual. These guys accept an externally-created identity for themselves, and then push it to the absolute max, without even for a minute asking "is this who I actually am?" To boot, they keep it alive for decades, without making adjustments according to their changing social location. The longer they hold to a model they didn't create, the harder they have to fight to protect that model as it becomes increasingly untenable.The thing is, as remind has pointed out, building and fixing things with your hands has nothing to do with masculinity in any meaningful sense -- the last time I had to rebuild a carburetor, not once did I use my penis. It's just the legacy of the traditional divisions of labour, as they have been dragged into the modern social context by unthinking, intellectually lazy people (and so encouraged by increasingly decrepit institutions).
From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001
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Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795
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posted 17 December 2004 11:12 PM
As Stephen Ducat points out in his new book, "The Wimp Factor: Gender Gaps, Holy Wars, and the Politics of Anxious Masculinity," quote: First let me throw out the term "femiphobia" as a way of naming this anxiety. Femiphobia is the male fear of being feminine. The underlying premise of my book is that the most important thing about being a man is not being a woman. This imperative to be repudiate everything feminine – whether it's external or internal – is played out as much in politics as in personal life.*snip* The problem with our current notion of masculinity is that it’s a definition of manhood based on domination. The problem with definition of manhood based on domination is that domination can never be a permanent condition. It’s a relational state – it is dependent on having somebody in the subordinate position, which means that you may be manly today, but you’re not going to be manly tomorrow, unless you’ve got somebody to push around and control. This definition goes back to the ancient Greeks, and it makes masculinity a precarious and brittle achievement – which has to be constantly asserted. It has to be proven over and over again. It is the ultimate Sisyphean pursuit. It has characterized politics going all the way back to the ancient Greeks. They had their own version of the "wimp factor." The worst thing an ancient Greek politician could be accused of is being a binoumenos, which loosely translated means "fucked male." Manhood for the ancient Greeks – just as it is for us – was a difficult and transient achievement. It wasn't the gender that you had sex with that determined your masculinity, but what position you occupied in a relationship of domination. If you were penetrated, you were rendered essentially a woman. If you were the penetrator, then you were the man. In a way, we still hold that definition.
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003
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nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402
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posted 18 December 2004 01:38 AM
quote: It has characterized politics going all the way back to the ancient Greeks.
Try "all the way back to the chimpanzees", and all the rest still applies. Like, what is weak man called by other men? It's not easy to shake evolution. (Well, maybe it is: the least evolved segment of the US population simply denies it.) More advanced primates learn subtler ways of asserting dominance.In fact, the more real success a man has (with women, in his profession, in any area of competence he chooses) the less posturing he needs to do.I wasn't putting down the guys who can rip apart a car and rebuild it, better, in 24 hours: they probably haven't got a lot to prove. It's the pale guys in expensive suits, who couldn't cope with a leaking toilet valve, doing a poor imitation of how they think real macho guys talk, that are pathetic.
From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001
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Cartman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7440
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posted 18 December 2004 12:47 PM
Oops...one more example. I am in the beer store last week to buy a case. The young woman gives me this free calendar with women dressed in skimpy clothing. I say "no thanx, I already have a couple of calendars". She and her male boss looked at me like I was crazy. The man insists and asks me how I could refuse a FREE calendar with half naked women on it. Now, how does a guy say "I think that it is inappropriate to objectify women in an attempt to legitimize my masculinity"? I am comfortable with myself as I am and I doubt my wife will appreciate the calendar (not that she would really care). But, we all know how this would be interpreted. [ 18 December 2004: Message edited by: Cartman ]
From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004
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Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795
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posted 18 December 2004 06:46 PM
Raos: quote: Just what are you trying to say about my beloved show tunes?
Just having some tongue-in-cheek fun with how people can make assumptions. I don't know hardly any show tunes, and I don't think I've ever spun a pirouette... Truth be told, if I was in a line-up, and someone was asked to pick out the "non-heterosexual" and they were basing their guess on all the old stereotypes, I'd be the last guy they'd pick... [ 18 December 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003
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Mush
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3934
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posted 20 December 2004 12:12 AM
quote: Originally posted by Doug:
These things are a matter of male culture - you go along to fit in, so that you have a connection to the other guys.
You and your wife like photography? Eh? Nudge, nudge...(etc). One of the things I enjoy about spending time in a mixed crowd (men and women, gay and straight) is that most of this goes by the wayside. I get pretty tired of the locker-room stuff, and I do wonder sometimes if it's all just a huge put-on.
From: Mrs. Fabro's Tiny Town | Registered: Mar 2003
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Amy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2210
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posted 20 December 2004 02:16 AM
quote: Originally posted by mayakovsky: So it could happen as easily at a car show, where men want to be seen as 'players' as at a philosophy conference where the man tries to stun someone with an obscure Camus quote to impress a woman. To be seen as interacting or impressing the women is important. It is not necessarily homoerotic but it does depend on the validation of other males.
Hahaha! I just went to a philosophy conference, and I can say that that does happen! I remember being one of 6 girls in a community football league, and most of my coaches were really happy to see me trying, even though I wasn't that good. One coach, the one who wore a "beer, it's not just for breakfast anymore" shirt to every practice, always gave us a hard time, and encouraged the guys on the team to be "manly". He's the guy who, whenever my performance wasn't wonderful, would tell me I played like a girl. He's also the guy who made the me run laps and made the whole team do push-ups when I answered with "I am a girl". Ever since then, I've had *very* little patience with anyone who has that attitude... it seems to be the attitude being talked about in this thread.
From: the whole town erupts and/ bursts into flame | Registered: Feb 2002
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Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214
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posted 20 December 2004 08:21 AM
I really don't get all these motorcycle/truck/car "reality" shows.For one, it ain't real. Pristine shops, new or spotlessly clean parts. Anyone can slap parts together in those conditions. The reality is switching out a starting motor with the front end of the van up on ramps, with the guy lying on his back with slushy brine dripping in his eyes while he taps out a stripped bolt. In his driveway, when it's below freezing. *ahem* Not that I do that. I'd rather pay a mechanic. But I know guys who do. Makes those Orange County guys look like wimps.
From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001
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exiled armadillo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6389
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posted 20 December 2004 05:50 PM
quote: Okay, but then we have to include the pointless, interminable traffic violation anecdotes.
Such as: A family are out with friends enjoying a sunny barbeque. when if comes time to go they get in the car and drive off. A few miles down the road the guy notices a cop in his rear view mirror and realizes he didn't put his seat belt on. the cop in the car behind watches not sure if the guy does have his seat belt on, when he sees the guy reach for it. KNowing he has no choice he turns his sirens on and pulls the car over. the cop proceeds to write out a ticket, but the driver won't fess up, or take the ticket. tired of this the cop looks over at the guys wife and says: ma'am, you look like an honest person, was your husband wearing his seat belt or not? the wife looks at the cop and says: sir, after ten years of marriage, theres one thing I've learned and that's NOT to argue with him when he's been drinking.
From: Politicians and diapers should be changed frequently and for the same reason | Registered: Jul 2004
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Timebandit
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1448
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posted 20 December 2004 11:36 PM
The word hypermasculine brought this image to my mind:You know when you're at the gym and you're waiting for some guy (who may be heavily muscled or not, doesn't really matter) to finish with one of the weight machines so you can have a turn? If you happen to be female, and especially if you're youngish, they will squeeze out three or four extra reps in an attempt to make their veins prominent and produce more sweat, because, gawd knows, this is very impressive to the female of the species. Then, they will slowly rise from said machine, shaking out their arms, and assume an odd position -- arms slightly akimbo, elbows back, chest out -- and then do this weird sort of peacock strut around the machine as you change the weight settings, looking at you from the corner of their eyes to see if you're noticing, but not looking at you directly because that might appear like they care that you're looking, and they don't want that... Anybody else ever notice this little dance? One of the best things about pushing 40 is that this happens to me less and less. Well, that, and my tendency to burst into derisive laughter at a few of the regulars has frightened them off... [ 20 December 2004: Message edited by: Zoot ]
From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001
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rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621
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posted 21 December 2004 01:47 AM
But periyar, the sound of their voice is so enchanting!I'm always amazed when in public places I see a man and a woman and the man is prattling away about any old thing, no matter how boring, fully expecting the woman to listen and be fascinated. Most of the time I am sure the woman is bored out of her fucking mind -- I would be -- but she's not saying anything. Maybe if I don't say anything, he'll go away? I don't think so! Sometimes I just want to turn to the couple and say to the guy, "you haven't said anything interesting in the last 30 minutes. Why don't you shut the fuck up for a change!" Sadly, I've never done it. quote: Originally posted by JimmyBrogan: I swear I saw these two guys at the Black Eagle last week.
JimmyB, is it fair to say that the "old guard" of leathermen were a definite subculture(s) of fem-phobic gay hypermasculinity? Zoot, I haven't noticed that in my gyms. Mind you, the gym where I usually work out is about 95% young men. My own workout mates are usually focused on not breaking their back, and don't notice much else. What I DO see, however, are lots of young guys, usually not overly muscled, staring at their tits'n'abs in the mirror down in the locker room. Often they will gaze at the T&A for quite protracted periods, completely oblivious of anything else. However, this narcissism, if we want to speak of traditional gender binaries, is not really a manifestation of hypermasculinity, if anything, I think it would be considered kind of "fem" in a guy. Likewise insecure beefsquares pumping out to impress the ladies -- overcompensating, mock butch. Not the real thing. At least that's how I would read it. Not that I'm valorizing butch, just that I wouldn't read that behaviour as "hypermasculine" except in an overcompensating way. [ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: rasmus raven ]
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001
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Jimmy Brogan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3290
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posted 21 December 2004 02:58 AM
quote: JimmyB, is it fair to say that the "old guard" of leathermen were a definite subculture(s) of fem-phobic gay hypermasculinity?
That is a loaded question RR. The first leather scene I ever made, in the mid-seventies, was a place in Toronto called the Hotel California. I walked in all frat boy sweet to find the place jammed with hypermasculine looking leather dudes. The key word here is looking. They 'looked' the part but when one got close and overheard the conversations there was a lot of talk about Sunday brunch and going 'tiquing, if you catch my drift. In short they were, in the main, poseurs. The Toronto leather scene remains much the same today. So to answer your question, my experience would say no. There is a fairly strong vein of fem-phobia among many gay men, but I don't think the hypermasculinity of the leather men is an indication that the vein is stronger or more prevelent in that community.
From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002
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Timebandit
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1448
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posted 21 December 2004 01:01 PM
quote: Not that I'm valorizing butch, just that I wouldn't read that behaviour as "hypermasculine" except in an overcompensating way.
To my mind, "hypermasculine" IS an overcompensation, a charicature. Just so the female equivalent, "hyperfeminine", is heavy make-up, long fake nails, overdone hair and an exaggerated Marilyn Monroe wiggle in the walk. Seriously, unless you have hip displasia or something, that walk is NOT natural! You maybe haven't noticed the weight machine dance because, well, you're male and possibly focused on what you're doing at the gym -- and a lack of female presence might factor in. It is, however, obvious to most women (I know few women who have worked out in a co-ed gym and not commented on it) and one of the biggest off-putting factors when one joins a co-ed gym. [ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: Zoot ]
From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001
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steffie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3826
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posted 21 December 2004 03:47 PM
Debra: quote: I was told by one set of experts that it was because I was a feminist and he had to be hypermasculine to compensate, by another set that because I was a stay at home mom I was hyper feminine and he had to compensate.Sometimes things are just because that's the way they choose to be. But it is ever so much easier to blame mom.
#1: Both sets of "experts" sound like they have their heads up their ass. #2 Feminism and motherhood will be - more often than not - blamed as the cause of children's woes. And why shouldn't they be? People need to point at someone as the cuplrit, and who better to target than people who are feared and therefore disempowered to begin with? Stay strong. Heph: Great article.
From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003
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