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Author Topic: hypermasculinity
Cartman
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posted 16 December 2004 08:42 PM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have always found "hypermasculinity" to be very odd. I do not think it is "natural", but rather, a dramatic form of acting. Ironically, dramatic acting is considered the opposite of masculinity.

Why do you think some men act so masculine?

What are the "payoffs" for acting this way?

I am still learning the ropes so I apologize if this is in the wrong section of babble.


From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 16 December 2004 08:44 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Could you give an example of what you consider hypermasculinity?
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 16 December 2004 08:50 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I suspect I know what Cartman means, but I'll let him respond to remind's query before I reply.
From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 16 December 2004 08:57 PM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I suspect Cartman doesn't mean XYY syndrome some men are born with one X chromsome's and two Y's. This is a medical condition (obviously) so it explains why some would be 'hypermasculine'.

[edited to remove incorrect info]

[ 16 December 2004: Message edited by: Vansterdam Kid ]


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
ShyViolet
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posted 16 December 2004 11:11 PM      Profile for ShyViolet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
but vk, it doesn't really make them more masculine. according to the Turner Center, the only effects of this abnormality are 1) increased athletic ability/activity and 2) learning disorders.

unless you mean something else, that hardly qualifies as hypermasculine.

btw, anyone know if this has a name other than "XYY Syndrome"? i know XXY is Klinefelter's and X0 is Turner's. there is, of course, XXX Syndrome as well... it's amazing what can happen with chromosomes, huh?


From: ~Love is like pi: natural, irrational, and very important~ | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 16 December 2004 11:14 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
At one time XYY males were called "supermales" and XXX females "superfemales", but these names seem to have fallen out of favour.
From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 16 December 2004 11:24 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Does this mean scratching one's balls in public, gobbing on the street, snotting into one's hands and wiping it on one's pants, or measuring distance travelled by beers drank, do you think?

quote:
Originally posted by verbatim:
I suspect I know what Cartman means, but I'll let him respond to remind's query before I reply.

[ 16 December 2004: Message edited by: remind ]


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 16 December 2004 11:25 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
@ remind
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 16 December 2004 11:29 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

Does this mean scratching one's balls in public, gobbing on the street, snotting into one's hands and wiping it on one's pants, or measuring distance travelled by beers drank, do you think?



I would describe such behaviour as "hyperdisgusting" or "ultravile", although they may be concurrent with (what I think Cartman meant by) hypermasculinity. I suspect he's referring to men who try to "out-man" other men.

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Fidel
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posted 16 December 2004 11:34 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think it has something to do w the male hormone testosterone. Women whose estrogen levels drop off after menopause can develop overly aggressive behaviour as well as some masculine physical traits. Estrogen, by what I've read, has a cancelling effect on testosterone, which is present in females to a smaller extent. Recent studies have shown higher levels of testosterone to be linked with cancer and heart problems in men. Some males produce more T than others. I don't think it explains all of the "hyper-masculine" effect, no, but there's a strong link.
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remind
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posted 16 December 2004 11:40 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, out manly maning like talking in a deep low voice, while grabbing one's crotch and adjusting right or left? Or just a simple pissing match?

I have always preferred the primates male posturing, like swinging around thawping bushes and beating upon the chest, to snot on pants or flying through the wind.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cartman
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posted 17 December 2004 01:04 AM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I suspect I know what Cartman means, but I'll let him respond to remind's query before I reply.

I can give out specific examples, but they are contextual or situational.

Example. Last Xmas I go to a so-called professional supper with five lawyers and two academics. These "professional" lawyers spend an inordinate time talking and laughing about homosexual clients they have exhausting every joke/situation etc. they can recall. Gay men are depicted as stupid, whimsical, insane, effeminate etc. particularly in masculine situations like hunting and fishing. I mean for hours non-stop. The two academics apologized profusely for their behaviour when I left. I thought less of them for having such friends. Honestly, it made me sick and I am not a moral crusading type.

Example. A boss I once had was a very supportive, nice person. He was very good to his employees and would go out on a limb for them. Amongst others, however, he made constant jokes in a much lower voice with a more stoic face about women, poor people, Hutterites and Indians. Again, they were depicted as dumb, ineffective, ugly, etc. People thought he was hilarious.

Example. A "normal" even gentle employee I once had (decent worker) used to get into fights all the time and pick on weaker people in bars. He would beat people to a pulp. As a retail manager, it was hard to discipline an employee who had bruises and cuts on his face, but it was not good for business y'know? He always had to be really masculine in a group. Apparently, he was taking hair styling lessons, and behaved very differently amongst women (more gentle). Later, I heard he was a drag queen but this might be BS.

Anyways, what is the difference between a male in drag acting super effeminate and a male acting super masculine if this is not who they really are? They are both pretending to be someone else. The right seems to mock marginal groups because they are not acting "normal" (i.e. supposedly homosexuals) but the right also "acts" (i.e. mean, tough, gun totin, bad guys). With a drag queen, we know that the person knows that they are just acting, but in the latter they are acting out the persona and living it! Is this not more deceitful?


From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
alisea
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posted 17 December 2004 01:29 AM      Profile for alisea     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cartman, that's a fascinating and damning piece you wrote. Let me think about some of the implications.

[ 17 December 2004: Message edited by: alisea ]


From: Halifax, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 17 December 2004 01:33 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I do not think all men who do those types of things are being being deceitful, they really think that is who they are, or at least think that is who they should be.
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 17 December 2004 01:59 AM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's what I thought you meant, Cartman.

I have male friends who are all over that spectrum, and invariably the behaviour seems to be tied to their sexual self-image. In most instances, I figure it's a case of "the lady doth protest too much." Many men seem to be most concerned that they be seen as voracious sexual consumers by other men, and only secondarily so by women. However, it also seems to be less and less acceptable for a man to go to the same lengths to praise his manliness in the presence of women. I know of more than a few straight guys who are absolute pigs when among only men, but the women who know them would never guess it in a million years. These are the guys who probably feel that they were born a generation or two too late, and would have been the frenetic bottom-pinchers of yesteryear. They are relegated now to having absurdly large private porn collections.

Remind, it's interesting that you repeatedly refer to scratching onesself, spitting, and such, because although those behaviours used to be considered the sole domain of men, I have found that the latest generation of women indulge in them to an almost equal level. I regularly see teenaged girls hawking loogies and belching loudly at bus stops now, and they don't seem to be the least bit concerned as to how "un-ladylike" that behaviour is. Apparently now it's just cool to spit on the sidewalk, and girls can be just as cool as boys. Good on them ...I guess.

[ 17 December 2004: Message edited by: verbatim ]


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
steffie
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posted 17 December 2004 08:12 AM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sexual issues aside, the men I have met who display "hypermasculine" traits/behaviours are usually not very emotionally mature. What I mean by this is that they were not taught as children that feelings are acceptable, that women are valid equals deserving respect, that men can be afraid, sad, etc.

The result, in my experience, is a man whose only means of communication is brutish and physical. Of course if these are the only known options, they end up either fighting or sexually acting out. Very sad indeed. These are the types of men who steel my resolve to raise a considerate, well-rounded and emotionally responsible male child.

I have seen the female version of "hypermaculinity" as mentioned above. I don't, however, have a reasonable explanation for it. If I had to guess I would say these girls are living what they have learned from the adults around them.

[ 17 December 2004: Message edited by: steffie ]


From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 17 December 2004 08:25 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Dubya climbing out of a fighter plane he is supposed to have landed himself on a flight deck, his full rig still on, including the strategic straps that emphasize ... Well, enough of that.

Is that not the iconic image that so many people (not just men, either) still do respond to? I mean, Karl Rove wouldn't have Dubya do it unless he knew that more people would swoon at the performance and the image than not.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Suzette
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posted 17 December 2004 08:50 AM      Profile for Suzette     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Fidel said:
Some males produce more T than others. I don't think it explains all of the "hyper-masculine" effect, no, but there's a strong link.

I'm not sure that testosterone is so much the culprit here as social conditioning. In aggressive behaviour perhaps, but the other types of behaviour discussed here - the ball-clawing and so on - are purely a matter of choice. Why don't I spit on the street even if I felt the urge to do so? Because my mother told me it wasn't nice.

quote:
Remind said:
I do not think all men who do those types of things are being being deceitful, they really think that is who they are, or at least think that is who they should be. (emphasis mine)

Well, now we're getting somewhere! This type of behaviour, to my mind, just reeks of "Look at me! Look at me! I'm real manly! Honest! (But worrying that my mates think I'm a nancy keeps me awake at night.)"
quote:
verbatim:
...invariably the behaviour seems to be tied to their sexual self-image. In most instances, I figure it's a case of "the lady doth protest too much."

Exactly.

I have a friend who is as "manly" as they come; he's been with the Army for 20 years as a paratrooper, is a mountain climber, is tall, well-built and a black belt in some martial art or other. He's also quietly spoken, humble, courteous, thoughtful and sensitive. This combination struck me as a bit unusual when I first met him, but as I came to know him better I realised that it's simply because he's completely at ease with himself. He doesn't have anything left to prove to himself or anyone else. And wasn't he a breath of fresh air to have around?


From: Pig City | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 17 December 2004 07:32 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, it was scratch, then adjust!

I quite honestly have not seen too many girls around here, or boys for that matter let alone men and women do this.

However, when I moved from Saskatchewan, to northern BC many decades ago, I was stunned to put it mildly. I moved away after a few years because I could not get used to the culture differences. After living on VIsland for many years we moved to the interior. Later his job took us to 3 other communties further north for a couple of years each move.

I moved south for personal reasons a 3 years back, and refuse to move back north because of the sexism than runs through everything. Though my husband continues to work and live in the north and comes down for extended visits every couple months.

Down here in Victoria, I have just not seen either sex doing the manly man things I noted.

quote:
Originally posted by verbatim:
Remind, it's interesting that you repeatedly refer to scratching onesself, spitting, and such, because although those behaviours used to be considered the sole domain of men, I have found that the latest generation of women indulge in them to an almost equal level. I regularly see teenaged girls hawking loogies and belching loudly at bus stops now, and they don't seem to be the least bit concerned as to how "un-ladylike" that behaviour is. Apparently now it's just cool to spit on the sidewalk, and girls can be just as cool as boys. Good on them ...I guess.



From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 17 December 2004 07:39 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One of the reasons I quit playing high school football was because of this "hypermasculinity". It was just so phony it creeped me out. It's guys trying to be something they are not. I guess the trite reason is "over compensation", but I wonder if it's also some guys who had father's that demanded a certain style of masculinity. Trying to measure up to insecure Dads? Like Hemingway, did their mom's dress them in frilly attire when they were infants?

A lifetime of running with the bullshit. What a sentence.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Debra
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posted 17 December 2004 07:39 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by steffie:
Sexual issues aside, the men I have met who display "hypermasculine" traits/behaviours are usually not very emotionally mature. What I mean by this is that they were not taught as children that feelings are acceptable, that women are valid equals deserving respect, that men can be afraid, sad, etc.

The result, in my experience, is a man whose only means of communication is brutish and physical. Of course if these are the only known options, they end up either fighting or sexually acting out. Very sad indeed. These are the types of men who steel my resolve to raise a considerate, well-rounded and emotionally responsible male child.

I have seen the female version of "hypermaculinity" as mentioned above. I don't, however, have a reasonable explanation for it. If I had to guess I would say these girls are living what they have learned from the adults around them.

[ 17 December 2004: Message edited by: steffie ]



hmm my son could be called hypermasculine.\

I was told by one set of experts that it was because I was a feminist and he had to be hypermasculine to compensate, by another set that because I was a stay at home mom I was hyper feminine and he had to compensate.

Sometimes things are just because that's the way they choose to be.
But it is ever so much easier to blame mom.

[ 17 December 2004: Message edited by: Debra ]


From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 17 December 2004 07:47 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

Down here in Victoria, I have just not seen either sex doing the manly man things I noted.



Well, wait for a bus in front of a high school right after classes let out, and I guarantee* you'll see it. I once watched a group of girls outside of Oak Bay high see who could hit the centreline first. I've seen it happen a number of times downtown too.

I'm not saying all kids are walking around hanging badges off of every projection to the point where they have to rehydrate every ten minutes -- just that spitting and belching are no longer the domain of rude boys (i.e. like when I was their age).

*Guarantee void where prohibited by law. Like here at babble.


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 17 December 2004 08:08 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Has anybody watched car shows, like Overhauling? The guys in there are caricatures. (I know this, because the promos come on, ad nauseum, during the home-decorating shows i watch.) Bulging, tattooed biceps, ripped - not cut - off teeshirts, shaved or crew-cut heads. And you see similar caricatures walking around in real life. They don't necessarily scratch or spit, but they are obsessed with speed, power, size - extremes. Their conversation is mostly about machinery, rough sports and getting the better of somebody.

I suspect that this is the image those wimpy lawyers are trying to imitate. Or at least, this is the character to whom they'd like to ingratiate themselves - when Mr T isn't actually in the room.

In Dubya's case, the model is more likely Ronald Reagan as a WWII flying ace in some old movie.

Anyway, these are icons of masculinity. It's not about function or status or ability; it's about image. Men who don't feel secure in themselves, or in their social role, and/or are conscious of having fallen short, kiss up to the most accessible icon within their cultural ken.

As the popular culture of North America becomes more polarized, more extreme, more simplified, more confrontational, expect a lot more of this posturing.


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 17 December 2004 08:38 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nonesuch:
Has anybody watched car shows, like Overhauling? The guys in there are caricatures. (I know this, because the promos come on, ad nauseum, during the home-decorating shows i watch.) Bulging, tattooed biceps, ripped - not cut - off teeshirts, shaved or crew-cut heads. And you see similar caricatures walking around in real life. They don't necessarily scratch or spit, but they are obsessed with speed, power, size - extremes. Their conversation is mostly about machinery, rough sports and getting the better of somebody.


Actually, I like watching Overhaulin sometimes. Not for the men but for the cars. I watch Holmes on Homes for the masculine arm thing. They just redid Lance Armstrong's GTO a few weeks back, and it so reminded me of my first purchased car. A 1970 GTO Judge 402 Blue Block, a sweet car. I divorced my first husband because he made me trade it in (kidding a bit, but it was the first thing he "insisted" on doing in our short 6 month marriage) I also suspect my occasional watching it is because I grew up in Service Station/Parts Store/Restaurant settings though.

Having said that, there really are car geeks out there who live and breathe all types machinery, their affinity is just as real as anybody else's passion.

Having said that, some are also manly man brainwashed by images sold to them in car mags and car/girlie calendars!


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 17 December 2004 08:59 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ah, for me it's all about the existential questions, as usual. These guys accept an externally-created identity for themselves, and then push it to the absolute max, without even for a minute asking "is this who I actually am?" To boot, they keep it alive for decades, without making adjustments according to their changing social location. The longer they hold to a model they didn't create, the harder they have to fight to protect that model as it becomes increasingly untenable.

The thing is, as remind has pointed out, building and fixing things with your hands has nothing to do with masculinity in any meaningful sense -- the last time I had to rebuild a carburetor, not once did I use my penis. It's just the legacy of the traditional divisions of labour, as they have been dragged into the modern social context by unthinking, intellectually lazy people (and so encouraged by increasingly decrepit institutions).


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mayakovsky
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posted 17 December 2004 09:54 PM      Profile for mayakovsky     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think Steffie has hit some definite points. I don't believe its necessarily a 'testosterone' issue. A little too biologically reductionist for me. I don't think that high testosterone leads to macho behaviour. I think it is a learned behaviour, 'fighting' for a percieved male identity.

I also do not think that this behaviour is limited to sports or sports related activities. I have also seen what I would call 'hypermasculinity' within gaming and some literary scenes. ie: male poets doing their best macho, 'been there done that' thing. I also think it exists in the so called nerd genres of sci-fi or fantasy. Over the top descriptions of sexuality or absurd depictions of the idealized female form.

I think 'hypermasculinity' exists when the female is percieved as other. So it could happen as easily at a car show, where men want to be seen as 'players' as at a philosophy conference where the man tries to stun someone with an obscure Camus quote to impress a woman. To be seen as interacting or impressing the women is important. It is not necessarily homoerotic but it does depend on the validation of other males.


From: New Bedford | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 17 December 2004 11:12 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As Stephen Ducat points out in his new book, "The Wimp Factor: Gender Gaps, Holy Wars, and the Politics of Anxious Masculinity,"

quote:
First let me throw out the term "femiphobia" as a way of naming this anxiety. Femiphobia is the male fear of being feminine. The underlying premise of my book is that the most important thing about being a man is not being a woman. This imperative to be repudiate everything feminine – whether it's external or internal – is played out as much in politics as in personal life.

*snip*

The problem with our current notion of masculinity is that it’s a definition of manhood based on domination. The problem with definition of manhood based on domination is that domination can never be a permanent condition. It’s a relational state – it is dependent on having somebody in the subordinate position, which means that you may be manly today, but you’re not going to be manly tomorrow, unless you’ve got somebody to push around and control. This definition goes back to the ancient Greeks, and it makes masculinity a precarious and brittle achievement – which has to be constantly asserted. It has to be proven over and over again. It is the ultimate Sisyphean pursuit.

It has characterized politics going all the way back to the ancient Greeks. They had their own version of the "wimp factor." The worst thing an ancient Greek politician could be accused of is being a binoumenos, which loosely translated means "fucked male." Manhood for the ancient Greeks – just as it is for us – was a difficult and transient achievement. It wasn't the gender that you had sex with that determined your masculinity, but what position you occupied in a relationship of domination. If you were penetrated, you were rendered essentially a woman. If you were the penetrator, then you were the man. In a way, we still hold that definition.



From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 18 December 2004 12:30 AM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Afraid to get in contact with their feminine side? Sheesh. No wonder I have a hard time wedging myself into the groups of the "guys".

I just hate this whole issue. Guys being too guyie. I mean, I'm a meat and potatos work hard watch hockey drink whiskey kind of guy. But when guys do nothing but talk of the might of their penii, having sex 24/7 and being REALLY, REALLY straight...Eeegads it gets to me. Maybe it is just because I'm uncomfortable round them concepts of sex and am afraid of girls beyond friends

But I just can't connect to the man's man manly man.


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 18 December 2004 01:38 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It has characterized politics going all the way back to the ancient Greeks.

Try "all the way back to the chimpanzees", and all the rest still applies.
Like, what is weak man called by other men?
It's not easy to shake evolution.
(Well, maybe it is: the least evolved segment of the US population simply denies it.)
More advanced primates learn subtler ways of asserting dominance.In fact, the more real success a man has (with women, in his profession, in any area of competence he chooses) the less posturing he needs to do.

I wasn't putting down the guys who can rip apart a car and rebuild it, better, in 24 hours: they probably haven't got a lot to prove. It's the pale guys in expensive suits, who couldn't cope with a leaking toilet valve, doing a poor imitation of how they think real macho guys talk, that are pathetic.


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
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posted 18 December 2004 04:55 AM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow! No one has mentioned monster truck shows yet.
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Anchoress
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posted 18 December 2004 05:19 AM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OK, I'll bite. Monster Truck Shows.
From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Suzette
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posted 18 December 2004 08:40 AM      Profile for Suzette     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for linking to that interview, Hephaestion; very interesting!
From: Pig City | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cartman
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posted 18 December 2004 12:47 PM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oops...one more example. I am in the beer store last week to buy a case. The young woman gives me this free calendar with women dressed in skimpy clothing. I say "no thanx, I already have a couple of calendars". She and her male boss looked at me like I was crazy. The man insists and asks me how I could refuse a FREE calendar with half naked women on it.

Now, how does a guy say "I think that it is inappropriate to objectify women in an attempt to legitimize my masculinity"? I am comfortable with myself as I am and I doubt my wife will appreciate the calendar (not that she would really care). But, we all know how this would be interpreted.

[ 18 December 2004: Message edited by: Cartman ]


From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 18 December 2004 01:15 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Now, how does a guy say "I think that it is inappropriate to objectify women in an attempt to legitimize my masculinity"?

Just like that. Sounds excellent to me....
but then, the boss might reply, "Well, we haven't got any with half-naked men. What are ya, Canajun?"

From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 18 December 2004 02:36 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cartman:
Now, how does a guy say "I think that it is inappropriate to objectify women in an attempt to legitimize my masculinity"? I am comfortable with myself as I am and I doubt my wife will appreciate the calendar (not that she would really care). But, we all know how this would be interpreted.

Why would you care what the beer store guy thinks? Is there some sort of stigma you're concerned about here?

But seriously, I know what you mean. Unless you display some over-the-top, overt "proof" of your orientation, people can jump to conclusions. Like, whenever I go too long without without humming a show tune or spinning a pirouette, some people just assume certain things.... and gosh, that can be so goll-darned EMBARRASSING!!!

[ 18 December 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 18 December 2004 02:48 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cartman, honestly you have to decide what is important to you and what is not important to you. My husband had a similar situation - although I realize you'll believe that he was influenced by my presence- and he said "No, sorry..I'm not a bastard" (Sorry for the language to anyone's who is offended)

I guess you have to decide if you would rather people think you are a man who objectifies and mistreats women or, as you suggested, gay. I'd prefer to think that the "man" handing me the calendar is an unprincipled person whose values, beiefs, and impressions are inconsequential in my life.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 18 December 2004 05:51 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yabbut, it's the female employee who actually hands out the calendar. She doesn't seem to think there is anything wrong with it. (And, really, there isn't, as long it's consensual and in fairly good taste.)
Or...
Maybe she's secretly not that thrilled, and would like to hear more men express negative sentiments about it, in front of, or to, her boss. Maybe you made her day and reinforced her optimism about men, by refusing.

You just never know when and how you influence other people.


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
J.S. Bach
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posted 18 December 2004 06:24 PM      Profile for J.S. Bach     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[QUOTE] Well, we haven't got any with half-naked men.

I work for a large municipal government, and any sexist calendars, pictures, email, etc. are strictly verboten. Except for our charity firefighter "big hunk" calendars, which are distributed with the city's blessings. When I am in my (female) supervisor's office, the most prominent feature in the office is the current month's shirtless fireman flashing his muscles.

It's never bothered me, but it is interesting to watch the differing standards of our equity officers.


From: Mississauga | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Raos
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posted 18 December 2004 06:29 PM      Profile for Raos     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I go too long without without humming a show tune or spinning a pirouette, some people just assume certain things....

Just what are you trying to say about my beloved show tunes?


From: Sweet home Alaberta | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 18 December 2004 06:46 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Raos:

quote:
Just what are you trying to say about my beloved show tunes?

Just having some tongue-in-cheek fun with how people can make assumptions. I don't know hardly any show tunes, and I don't think I've ever spun a pirouette...

Truth be told, if I was in a line-up, and someone was asked to pick out the "non-heterosexual" and they were basing their guess on all the old stereotypes, I'd be the last guy they'd pick...

[ 18 December 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cartman
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posted 19 December 2004 10:40 PM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
But, we all know how this would be interpreted.

My mistake. I never even thought about that interpretation (refusing the calendar due to sexual orientation), I thought that they might think my wife was a bag and I was a wimp just because we would not want to put crap like that up on my walls. I would like him to realize that I refused it because I feel it is inappropriate rather than b/c I am worried about my wife giving me a hard time. His female employee did not look very excited about handing these out.

From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 20 December 2004 12:03 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cartman:
The man insists and asks me how I could refuse a FREE calendar with half naked women on it.
[ 18 December 2004: Message edited by: Cartman ]

I think I have to go to the beer store.

These things are a matter of male culture - you go along to fit in, so that you have a connection to the other guys.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mush
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posted 20 December 2004 12:12 AM      Profile for Mush     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:

These things are a matter of male culture - you go along to fit in, so that you have a connection to the other guys.


You and your wife like photography? Eh? Nudge, nudge...(etc).

One of the things I enjoy about spending time in a mixed crowd (men and women, gay and straight) is that most of this goes by the wayside. I get pretty tired of the locker-room stuff, and I do wonder sometimes if it's all just a huge put-on.


From: Mrs. Fabro's Tiny Town | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Amy
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posted 20 December 2004 02:16 AM      Profile for Amy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mayakovsky:
So it could happen as easily at a car show, where men want to be seen as 'players' as at a philosophy conference where the man tries to stun someone with an obscure Camus quote to impress a woman. To be seen as interacting or impressing the women is important. It is not necessarily homoerotic but it does depend on the validation of other males.

Hahaha! I just went to a philosophy conference, and I can say that that does happen!

I remember being one of 6 girls in a community football league, and most of my coaches were really happy to see me trying, even though I wasn't that good. One coach, the one who wore a "beer, it's not just for breakfast anymore" shirt to every practice, always gave us a hard time, and encouraged the guys on the team to be "manly". He's the guy who, whenever my performance wasn't wonderful, would tell me I played like a girl. He's also the guy who made the me run laps and made the whole team do push-ups when I answered with "I am a girl".

Ever since then, I've had *very* little patience with anyone who has that attitude... it seems to be the attitude being talked about in this thread.


From: the whole town erupts and/ bursts into flame | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 20 December 2004 02:29 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd be as hypermasculine as the next hypermasculine guy, but Mme. Bong won't let me.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 20 December 2004 08:21 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I really don't get all these motorcycle/truck/car "reality" shows.

For one, it ain't real. Pristine shops, new or spotlessly clean parts. Anyone can slap parts together in those conditions.

The reality is switching out a starting motor with the front end of the van up on ramps, with the guy lying on his back with slushy brine dripping in his eyes while he taps out a stripped bolt. In his driveway, when it's below freezing.

*ahem*

Not that I do that. I'd rather pay a mechanic. But I know guys who do.

Makes those Orange County guys look like wimps.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
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posted 20 December 2004 10:46 AM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I swear I saw these two guys at the Black Eagle last week.


From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 December 2004 11:23 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
I'd be as hypermasculine as the next hypermasculine guy, but Mme. Bong won't let me.

This made me burst out laughing.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
periyar
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posted 20 December 2004 11:48 AM      Profile for periyar   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How about a subtle hyper-masculine behaviour displayed during conversations, where there are certain men who feel compelled to have their say in every topic even if it's not relevant, interesting or edifying to the discussion -just because we are all waiting with great anticipation to hear their pearls of wisdom- I remember this most when I was at university talking with guys in liberal arts type programs. I can't speak about other disciplines because this is the one I'm most familiar with.
From: toronto | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 20 December 2004 04:23 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Okay, but then we have to include the pointless, interminable traffic violation anecdotes.
From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
exiled armadillo
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posted 20 December 2004 05:50 PM      Profile for exiled armadillo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Okay, but then we have to include the pointless, interminable traffic violation anecdotes.

Such as:

A family are out with friends enjoying a sunny barbeque. when if comes time to go they get in the car and drive off. A few miles down the road the guy notices a cop in his rear view mirror and realizes he didn't put his seat belt on.

the cop in the car behind watches not sure if the guy does have his seat belt on, when he sees the guy reach for it. KNowing he has no choice he turns his sirens on and pulls the car over.

the cop proceeds to write out a ticket, but the driver won't fess up, or take the ticket. tired of this the cop looks over at the guys wife and says: ma'am, you look like an honest person, was your husband wearing his seat belt or not?

the wife looks at the cop and says: sir, after ten years of marriage, theres one thing I've learned and that's NOT to argue with him when he's been drinking.


From: Politicians and diapers should be changed frequently and for the same reason | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 20 December 2004 11:36 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The word hypermasculine brought this image to my mind:

You know when you're at the gym and you're waiting for some guy (who may be heavily muscled or not, doesn't really matter) to finish with one of the weight machines so you can have a turn? If you happen to be female, and especially if you're youngish, they will squeeze out three or four extra reps in an attempt to make their veins prominent and produce more sweat, because, gawd knows, this is very impressive to the female of the species. Then, they will slowly rise from said machine, shaking out their arms, and assume an odd position -- arms slightly akimbo, elbows back, chest out -- and then do this weird sort of peacock strut around the machine as you change the weight settings, looking at you from the corner of their eyes to see if you're noticing, but not looking at you directly because that might appear like they care that you're looking, and they don't want that...

Anybody else ever notice this little dance? One of the best things about pushing 40 is that this happens to me less and less. Well, that, and my tendency to burst into derisive laughter at a few of the regulars has frightened them off...

[ 20 December 2004: Message edited by: Zoot ]


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 21 December 2004 01:47 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But periyar, the sound of their voice is so enchanting!

I'm always amazed when in public places I see a man and a woman and the man is prattling away about any old thing, no matter how boring, fully expecting the woman to listen and be fascinated. Most of the time I am sure the woman is bored out of her fucking mind -- I would be -- but she's not saying anything. Maybe if I don't say anything, he'll go away? I don't think so! Sometimes I just want to turn to the couple and say to the guy, "you haven't said anything interesting in the last 30 minutes. Why don't you shut the fuck up for a change!" Sadly, I've never done it.

quote:
Originally posted by JimmyBrogan:
I swear I saw these two guys at the Black Eagle last week.

JimmyB, is it fair to say that the "old guard" of leathermen were a definite subculture(s) of fem-phobic gay hypermasculinity?

Zoot, I haven't noticed that in my gyms. Mind you, the gym where I usually work out is about 95% young men. My own workout mates are usually focused on not breaking their back, and don't notice much else. What I DO see, however, are lots of young guys, usually not overly muscled, staring at their tits'n'abs in the mirror down in the locker room. Often they will gaze at the T&A for quite protracted periods, completely oblivious of anything else. However, this narcissism, if we want to speak of traditional gender binaries, is not really a manifestation of hypermasculinity, if anything, I think it would be considered kind of "fem" in a guy. Likewise insecure beefsquares pumping out to impress the ladies -- overcompensating, mock butch. Not the real thing. At least that's how I would read it.

Not that I'm valorizing butch, just that I wouldn't read that behaviour as "hypermasculine" except in an overcompensating way.

[ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: rasmus raven ]


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
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posted 21 December 2004 02:58 AM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
JimmyB, is it fair to say that the "old guard" of leathermen were a definite subculture(s) of fem-phobic gay hypermasculinity?

That is a loaded question RR.

The first leather scene I ever made, in the mid-seventies, was a place in Toronto called the Hotel California. I walked in all frat boy sweet to find the place jammed with hypermasculine looking leather dudes. The key word here is looking. They 'looked' the part but when one got close and overheard the conversations there was a lot of talk about Sunday brunch and going 'tiquing, if you catch my drift. In short they were, in the main, poseurs.

The Toronto leather scene remains much the same today.

So to answer your question, my experience would say no. There is a fairly strong vein of fem-phobia among many gay men, but I don't think the hypermasculinity of the leather men is an indication that the vein is stronger or more prevelent in that community.


From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 21 December 2004 08:21 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In the hetero BDSM scene, it seems to me (annecdotal "evidence" alert) that male Dom's tend to be short in stature. Doms my size or larger, although not rare, seem to be in the minority. I've seen lots of big guys who I assumed were Doms, only to see them later as submisives.

In play, it's all about who you aren't, and maybe that's a common thread that transcends sexual orientation.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 21 December 2004 08:53 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Anybody else ever notice this little dance?

I wish I could find a video clip online of a male pigeon doing its mating dance. They sidle up to a female (who, not to project human qualities, usually looks slightly bored and uninterested), and proceed to twirl, clockwise and anticlockwise. If the female walks away, they follow, and keep twirling when they get close until the female either flies away completely or they get to mate. It's hilarious: you can just hear it's little brain going 'lookatmeIcanspinlookatmeIcanspin'.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 21 December 2004 01:01 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Not that I'm valorizing butch, just that I wouldn't read that behaviour as "hypermasculine" except in an overcompensating way.

To my mind, "hypermasculine" IS an overcompensation, a charicature. Just so the female equivalent, "hyperfeminine", is heavy make-up, long fake nails, overdone hair and an exaggerated Marilyn Monroe wiggle in the walk. Seriously, unless you have hip displasia or something, that walk is NOT natural!

You maybe haven't noticed the weight machine dance because, well, you're male and possibly focused on what you're doing at the gym -- and a lack of female presence might factor in. It is, however, obvious to most women (I know few women who have worked out in a co-ed gym and not commented on it) and one of the biggest off-putting factors when one joins a co-ed gym.

[ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: Zoot ]


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 21 December 2004 01:31 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fair points.
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
steffie
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posted 21 December 2004 03:47 PM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Debra:
quote:
I was told by one set of experts that it was because I was a feminist and he had to be hypermasculine to compensate, by another set that because I was a stay at home mom I was hyper feminine and he had to compensate.

Sometimes things are just because that's the way they choose to be.
But it is ever so much easier to blame mom.


#1: Both sets of "experts" sound like they have their heads up their ass.

#2 Feminism and motherhood will be - more often than not - blamed as the cause of children's woes. And why shouldn't they be? People need to point at someone as the cuplrit, and who better to target than people who are feared and therefore disempowered to begin with? Stay strong.

Heph: Great article.


From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged

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