however...

I went to my NDP Aunt's house for thanksgiving dinner, with her stupid fucking NDP kids. We talked politics, and all they brought up about Mr. Dion was "you can't even understand what he says...blah blah blah."
On the doorsteps this election, we heard the same thing: "I don't like Dion, he can't speak English...I don't like Dion, i'm not sure why...Dion's too weak, etc."

People saw him as this skinny, awkward, Frenchman who was smart, but didn't look like a guy who could come over and watch hockey with them.

One Vancouver radio station would play clips of his speeches and try to make up things he was saying, making fun of his accent.

It's funny...having immigrants in my family, I grew up around accents, and was raised not to make fun of them, or demonize or think lower of others who had them. Apparentl, many across Canada were not.

According to the AP this morning, "Dion also suffered in other regions because he frequently mangles English grammar and his accent makes him hard to understand."

The National Post says he had "to overcome the impression that he was a retread, hampered by an awkward accent..."

Once they describe this: ""Within a few moments of taking the stage the other night, Dion was mangling and mutilating English with all the abandon of a kitchen garburator. At his first stab, the word "China" came out sounding like "Cheena." And his rendering of "Niagara" sounded like a cross between "Nicaragua" and "Viagra." As Dion struggled to wrap his thick tongue around the language, supporters smiled and nodded and reassured him with their eyes in much the same way polite Canadians encourage foreign tourists to continue asking directions in fractured English."

The Toronto Star says "many observers have faulted aspects of Dion's image – everything from his thick accent to the way his rimless glasses do nothing for his bland "look" – for eliciting negative unconscious reactions."

Racist, Anti-French demonizing.

It's embarassing to all Canadians.

I would rather be ruled by a military junta than Harper.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: RonaldReagan ]

quote:

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Racist, Anti-French demonizing.

It's embarassing to all Canadians.

---

Yes.

But "French in Canada = Black in the USA"? Really? Then what's Black in Canada like? First Nations in Canada? Hmm?

quote:

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I would rather be ruled by a military junta than Harper.

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quote:

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I went to my NDP Aunt's house for thanksgiving dinner, with her stupid fucking NDP kids

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[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: thorin_bane ]

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]

There is no question but that there is a double standard about Dion's difficulties with the English language. Although Harper has actually greatly improved his French - probably the only positive comment I'll ever make about him - Elizabeth May for example speaks much more laborious French than Dion's elocution in English.

Having taught languages, I tend to give credence to what Dion says about a hearing problem. I have a very cultivated friend in Paris, in a most internationalist, international-solidarity milieu, who never learnt any English, Spanish (despite working with refugees from the South American dictatorships in the 1970s) or any other language. He can read those languages, some German, and Latin, but not speak any, due to a severe hearing loss.

edited to add: And as for the "stupid fucking NDP kids", indeed I'm inclined to think Reagan is on the wrong board. But the freepers tend to hate anything "French". Poor dear is confused.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: lagatta ]

As for Chrétien, indeed he mangled both. I think it may have been a question of personality - in English people almost found his old-fashioned "Pepper" accent and mangling of the language cute, while he made francophones grimace as he mangled his native tongue. The compilations of "Chrétienétés" (similar to "Bushisms") were in French.

Dion, an intellectual, doesn't elicit the same kind of folkloric reaction in English-speaking Canada.*

quote:

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Originally posted by lagatta:
As for Chrétien, indeed he mangled both. I think it may have been a question of personality - in English people almost found his old-fashioned "Pepper" accent and mangling of the language cute, while he made francophones grimace as he mangled his native tongue.

---

My take is very different. Chrétien sounds like a painfully real-life person, in either language. He sounds like he's speaking from the heart. He sounds as if he means every word he says. He has a sense of humour. I have never once heard him sound as if he is speaking from a script.

That's why I think Anglos voted for him in huge numbers - not because they found him cute or eccentric.

None of what I said above applies to Stéphane Dion. He is stilted and unsure in both languages, like an understudy tossed on stage when the lead takes ill at the very last minute. In fact, I personally believe that his speech reflects his character.

quote:

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Originally posted by It's Me D:
Its clear that the only reason not to vote for the Liberals this election was the hatred for Dion's French culture; thats why he did so well in the francophone ridings of Quebec... oh wait, he didn't. There are plenty of good reasons not to vote Liberal without even considering who their leader is (was?).

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quote:

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Just as there are plenty of good reasons not to vote Democrat in the USA, without considering who their leader is. And yet you would deny that racism is a huge factor in the US election?

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Oh, is driving while French an issue these days?

Being French Canadian and Black in America aren't the same. If someone is denying racism in the US election I'm sure it has it's own thread to be discussed in yes?

The worst Liberal result ever was 1984 under John Turner. Was that because people were bigoted against him for being Anglo?

quote:

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Originally posted by Scout:
Oh, is driving while French an issue these days?

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quote:

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Just as there are plenty of good reasons not to vote Democrat in the USA, without considering who their leader is. And yet you would deny that racism is a huge factor in the US election?

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quote:

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So I take it you are denying that racism is a big factor in the US election, since Obama is doing so well?

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No I am not. Start a thread on the subject if you are interested in hearing more.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: babblerwannabe ]

quote:

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My only point of posting in this thread has been to say that anti-French racism is a factor in Canadian politics, just as anti-black racism is a factor in the USA.

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Oh, if that is your only point then I agree. Its a shame you decided to quote my response to the OP in the process of making this point as my issue is with the OP and its attribution of Dion's loss to anti-French racism. Such racism does exist but contrary to the OP it simply didn't play a significant role in Dion's failure; it didn't need to, there were lots of other reasons for that.

quote:

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You evidently don't want to discuss that, but prefer to put words into my mouth that I never said.

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You've persistently attempted to sidetrack the discussion and paint me as some sort racism-denier for suggesting that there were better reasons for Dion's defeat than racism; you're in no position to talk about putting words in the mouths of others.

If you are still trying to make what you described as your "only point" in this thread I'd suggest you drop the insinuations about my views on the US election and stick to what I have actually said in this thread about this election.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: It's Me D ]

quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:

My only point of posting in this thread has been to say that anti-French racism is a factor in Canadian politics,

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In fact historically anti-Francophone sentiment in Canada has mainly been a subset of anti-Catholic sentiment which was also applied to Irish, Italians, etc.

Indeed the correct analogy to anti-Francophone sentiment in Canada is anti-Catholic sentiment in the USA, which was still very widespread 50 years ago (e.g. JFK) and is still strong in some quarters.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: brookmere ]

quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
I couldn't say. I'm not French.

But I do know, as one who lives among anglophone Canadians, that "running for public office while French" is definitely an issue.

---

Sure seem to be a lot of corpses that need burying around here these days.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by It's Me D:
Oh, if that is your only point then I agree. Its a shame you decided to quote my response to the OP in the process of making this point as my issue is with the OP and its attribution of Dion's loss to anti-French racism. Such racism does exist but contrary to the OP it simply didn't play a significant role in Dion's failure; it didn't need to, there were lots of other reasons for that.

---

You responded with sarcasm, devoid of any acknowledgement that anti-French racism exists. Forgive me for not thinking that you actually agree with the OP that anti-French racism exists in canadian politics - how could I have known?

I didn't have to "paint you" as a racism denier because you did that yourself by refusing to acknowledge racism as an element in Canadian politics until your last post.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
So what part of the term "frog" applies to Irish Catholics?

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After sobering up and OD'ing on Tylenol, I realize my linking of French to Black is a stretch to say the least.

quote:

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Originally posted by brookmere:

Every Catholic ethnic group in Canada and the US has had derogatory labels attached to it by the Protestant ruling majority. I don't think any particular label conveys special victim status.

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"Frog" actually applies to all French people, even Protestant ones.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
I couldn't say. I'm not French.

But I do know, as one who lives among anglophone Canadians, that "running for public office while French" is definitely an issue.

---

Hm. Here in the most anglo of places, Saskatchewan, I don't think it's much of an issue.

quote:

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I think his inability to pull more support had very little to do with being francophone.

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quote:

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Originally posted by It's Me D:
Also, although I have raised it numerous times and it has been ignored: Dion also did not do well amongst Francophones and this can hardly be attributed to anti-French sentiments on behalf of the voters can it?

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quote:

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Originally posted by lagatta:

Having taught languages, I tend to give credence to what Dion says about a hearing problem.

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quote:

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
I agree with BCG's point and would prefer that the thread title be changed if the OP agrees.
It is hard enough addressing anti-French animus in English Canada without grossly appropriating another minority's condition.

---

No, I've thought better of entering into another of these arguments - they are invariably irrational and vituperative. I've deleted my post.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

quote:

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with her stupid fucking NDP kids.

---

If Duceppe had been leader of the Liberals, or would have been another national party leader, he most likely would have been leader of a minority government, or had a strong opposition position to leverage himself from, to win the next time.

quote:

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Originally posted by RonaldReagan:
I modified the thread title after receiving an intelligent suggestion to do so.

After sobering up and OD'ing on Tylenol, I realize my linking of French to Black is a stretch to say the least.

But I do think a bit of French backlash was out there...and I certainly think that the reform party wing of the Conservatives use it to their advantage as well.

---

The new title ("How much of Dion's downfall is due to his poor English?") expresses something very different - namely, the idea that Dion's own personal failing in language skills may be responsible for his party's unpopularity. It focuses on Dion himself, rather than on the bigoted/xenophobic reactions to him that you so amply demonstrated in the OP.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

quote:

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Originally posted by RosaL:
Oh, for heaven's sake. Ukrainians, Russians, Mennonites, Finns, Swedes, Chinese, etc. in western Canada resented that they didn't get what French-speakers got.

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There was a famous quote from Trudeau pere` about why those groups didn't get the treatment the francophones received:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken Burch:

There was a famous quote from Trudeau pere` about why those groups didn't get the treatment the francophones received:

"The Ukrainians aren't threatening to break up the country".

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Timebandit:

Hm. Here in the most anglo of places, Saskatchewan, I don't think it's much of an issue.

I think Dion's biggest problem was a sense that he was uncomfortably stiff with people, a lack of warmth because of that discomfort. I think his inability to pull more support had very little to do with being francophone.

---

Being bilingual, and not having an instinctive dislike of french intellectuals, I must say that the way he sounds in french is far superior to the way he sounds in english. There is a reason people said he won the french debate. He had command of the issues, he was confident without being cocky, he appealed to peoples humanity and was overall very likeable. In English though, he sounds like a dork who keeps trying to be funny while stating very awkward phrases.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: remind ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
I must say I love this board. People say the most extraordinary things.

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quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
There is no anti-francaphone sentiment that I have seen here in BC. People fight to get their kids into the totally french speaking achools, and the mixed ones too.

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This is an excerpt from a research report on homeless francophone women in B.C.:

quote:

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There is a resistance towards the French language in British Columbia, which adds to the fact that the level of government responsible for providing funding for homeless persons is not subject to the Official Languages Act. Many of the comments heard during the research attested to a strong anti-Francophone and anti-Quebec sentiment.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
So you are saying that some English speaking Canadians, are not even a wee ittie-bitty bit prejudiced against francophone-Canadians?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Ok so "some" Anglo-Canadians are prejudiced against Francophone Canadians, we can agree on that?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Timebandit:

Hm. Here in the most anglo of places, Saskatchewan, I don't think it's much of an issue.

---

It isn't much of an issue among Saskatchewan francophones either.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:

Ok so "some" Anglo-Canadians are prejudiced against Francophone Canadians, we can agree on that?

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And we can all agree that some people are racist. And that water is wet. And that air has oxygen in it, right? Who is denying that anti Francophone prejudice exists in a very wide definition of the term? Whats important is that it wasn't relevant one way or the other to Dion's chances of becoming Prime Minister.

I'd believe anti-French sentiment was Dion's downfall if there was some sort of evidence that French Canadians have historically had trouble getting elected. But they haven't seeing as French Canadians have been Prime Minister for a little over a third of this country's existence. Honestly I don't get why reality is so hard for some people to grasp. But hey this is why babble is entertaining, arm chair social activists tilting at (non-existent) windmills of oppression. It's just, well... Cueball says it best:

quote:

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I must say I love this board. People say the most extraordinary things.

---

Let's just say this. Dion is the Quebecois version of Joe Clark. Nice enough, but a total nerd whom no one could imagine as Prime Minister. Whether that's fair is debatable, but it's reality and that's what most English and French Canadians thought. Besides, I doubt that was paramount in doing him in. See what Sean in Ottawa said for more information about Liberal ineptness and how the Conservatives had way more money.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: Vansterdam Kid ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Jeeze Spector that was mean.

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I take it you did not bother to read the report, let alone give any analysis to it. Not that it was even pertinent. Thanks for jumping on Mspector's bandwagon created to exploit the study and marginalized women for, his purpose. As that is what you did, by labelling it mean and not calling him on his BS strawman of putting words in my mouth to attack me on.

mspector, I call shannigans on your exploitation of the 1997 report, and indeed marginalized francophone women, to try and get a cheap shot in at me.

Did you think I and others would not read the report, and note its date? I guess so. You took 1 small paragraph, from the report that really indicates very little, because of the follow up paragraphs and facts. Plus, disregarding that the intent of the report was to get services for francophone women in BC.

Furthermore, and what is most pertinent, is the fact that I did not state there was no anti-francophone sentiment in BC, I said there was no anti-francophone sentiment that I have ever seen. And I haven't. I have stated here before that my granddaughter is fluently bilingual in Quebecois, and will note that she actually went to PQ last spring. But nice strawman that you created to try and get me to defend a position that YOU created for me.

But please do "keep it real" by stalking me about babble trying to get cheap personal shots in at me, even if you have to create them to do so, and exploiting a report on marginalized francaphone women in order to do so too. It shows the measure of who you are.

And cueball, you even caught the fact that I addressed anti-francophone sentiment from a personal perspective, but failed to mention it to mspector, I call that a gang up.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: remind ]

People who go to the anti-racism forum and deny the existence of racism get thrown out on their ear. But it seems that the bigotry-deniers get a free pass on babble when it comes to francophobia.

Double standard much?

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

Dion was portrayed as a "weak" leader (whatever that means), and as a Euro-French, effeminate, elitist, academic, skinny, girly man.

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
But please do "keep it real" by stalking me about babble trying to get cheap personal shots in at me, and exploiting a report on marginalized francaphone women to do so.

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I was in this thread before you showed up.

quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Interesting to see all the anglophones piling on here to deny the existence of anti-francophone bigotry.

---

I think it's valid for people to make a distinction between "racism" and anti-French prejudice and discrimination.

Mod hat off...I agree with M. Spector that anti-French sentiment most certainly IS a factor in Canadian politics. He didn't say that was the only reason Dion lost. And RonaldReagan, sauced to the gills in the opening post (like many of us on election night!), might have implied that, but his new thread title is a better way of expressing his discomfort with the anti-French prejudice that Dion may have faced in this election.

Personally, I think it's quite clear that Dion has been ridiculed for being French and his difficulty with speaking English. Comedy shows have mocked him mercilessly for it, and certainly I've heard more than one person mention his poor English speaking skills as one more reason not to vote for him.

quote:

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Bloc Québécois Leader Gilles Duceppe came to the defence of Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion on Friday over the Conservatives' lambasting of his performance during a recent English-language interview, saying francophone politicians are subjected to a "double standard" in Canadian politics.

When asked during a Quebec radio interview about the incident, an indignant Duceppe said many English-speaking politicians have little or no ability to speak French, yet francophones are somehow always expected to be perfect.

He accused Conservative Leader Stephen Harper of delivering a "low blow" by saying Dion's struggle to understand a question on the economy was a sign the Liberal leader is incapable of leading the country.

The Bloc leader said sometimes he has even preferred the English leaders' debate in past campaigns, because the poor quality of some leaders' French slowed the pace of the exchanges too much.

But Duceppe also took the opportunity to criticize Dion, suggesting he understood the question.

"The real question is that I think [Dion] understood the question. The real problem wasn't the language, it was the substance," Duceppe said. "He had nothing to say."

Harper's criticism of Dion interview 'double standard': Duceppe

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quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
Nonsense, IO, anglophones do/did not react that way to Duceppe and they never have. So you can keep your attempts to lay guilt, for some non-existent francophone bias, by saying you are ashamed of the rest of us, for yourslf.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: remind ]

---

Duceppe has a better command of english, and sounds a lot better in the language so it's understandable.

I never mentioned you specifically remind.

But to argue that there is no bias whatsoever, is absolute nonsense!

There are french also who have a bias against english speakers who are poor in french too.

However, I would agree with Duceppe and writer that there is a double standard.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: Interested Observer ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Vansterdam Kid:

Let's just say this. Dion is the Quebecois version of Joe Clark. Nice enough, but a total nerd whom no one could imagine as Prime Minister. Whether that's fair is debatable, but it's reality and that's what most English and French Canadians thought.

---

Well, I would argue that the people who watched the french debate and suggested that Dion was the winner would totally disagree with you.

quote:

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Originally posted by enemy_of_capital:
None of Dion and the Liberal loss has anything to due with his being Francophone. He lost because he is a non-charismatic, awkward man with a acedemic past who somehow managed ti enter politics having nothing to say. though if we were to discriminate based on his voice or accent it wouldnt be the tone, awkwardness or french that makes people laugh, make fun or tease. its the fact that the man sounds like Kermitt the bloody frog. (p.s. ronny reagan that last crack was for the "stupid NDP" crap you've been pushing).

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quote:

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Originally posted by RonaldReagan:
As Bill Maher once said about the Republicans view on 'elitists' "Apaarently, unless you're a shitkicker from Kansas, you're with the terrorists."

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quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
I'm stalking you? Ha! Get over yourself.

I was in this thread before you showed up.

And I "exploited" a report by quoting it to prove that you were full of shit? Go buy yourself a good dictionary.

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Oh common remind, you can't go on this board and expect people not to disagree with you!?!

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
I think it's valid for people to make a distinction between "racism" and anti-French prejudice and discrimination.

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quote:

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Originally posted by janfromthebruce:
Dion lost because he couldn't sell the Green Shift. Dion lost because at the end of the campaign, he went on a tangent about only the liberals love Canada, only the liberals can save us - he sounded pathetic. The liberals lost overall, because they ran a crap campaign. Personally, I am not interested in why the liberals lost. They lost because they do not connect with voters - vote for us because we always rule, are the natural party, is not a campaign. And that's the way I see it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
They lost seats because of the Liberals' overall shit show not Dion's Anglais.

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Again, it was a combination of the two. Making one versus the other is just a fallacy.

quote:

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Originally posted by Interested Observer:

Do you deny that it played a role in his unpopularity?

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The Shawinigan strangler, "Trudeau's muscle", won the phoniest majority ever in 1997, and his English was not excellent either. Dion's Anglais was not a factor.

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:

The Shawinigan strangler, "Trudeau's muscle", won the phoniest majority ever in 1997, and his English was not excellent either. Dion's Anglais was not a factor.

It was the Liberals' complete failure to differentiate themselves from Harper conservatives. Harper was enjoying a de facto majority since 2006 because of Liberal Party support in Ottawa. The shit show since 2006 in combination with an unpopular carbon tax etc was their downfall. Liberals are coasting on fumes. If we had European-style PR, the Liberal Party of Canada would prolly be relegated to third or fourth party status. Canadians are beginning to realize what Europeans discovered long ago - that the Liberals are just another conservative party.

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Do you back up all your arguments by taking a hit at the conservatives and the liberals?

If you don't think that the perception of Dion when he spoke english was a problem to him, please explain.

EDIT: I was unconvinced by the reference to Trudeau.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: Interested Observer ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Interested Observer:

Do you back up all your arguments by taking a hit at the conservatives and the liberals?

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I backed up this one with a reference to Chretien winning the phoniest majority ever in 1997 while mangling his second language. What do you think about that? Or will you continue derailing this thread with comments about me personally? Keep it up

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

I think people identified themselves with Chretien because he was feisty. He had a kind of underdog fighter factor that everybody could relate to.

In the case of Dion, he did not have that added personality that could carry himself past the language barrier.

quote:

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Originally posted by Interested Observer:
Oops, misunderstood the reference.

In the case of Dion, he did not have that added personality that could carry himself past the language barrier.

---

So you're saying that some percentage of the Liberals' support base who are bigoted will put aside their bigotry... if and only if their leader is of good character and "feisty"?

I find you're full of shit most of the time, even when you're not trying to derail a thread with comments about me personally.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:

So you're saying that some percentage of the Liberals' support base who are bigoted will put aside their bigotry... if and only if their leader has good character qualities?

And I find you're full of shit most of the time, even when you're not trying to derail a thread with comments about me personally.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Even I cheered for him, when I didn't even like his policies very much!

What I'm saying is that perception plays a lot more in politics than what the platform is about and the record a party has. Unfortunate, but true.

I would argue that many people are turned off by the ndp simply because their leader has a moustache, and because of that distraction they do not even bother to read what they are about. Sad.

So if people have a hard time understanding what a leader is saying and find it hard to relate to them, they turn to someone else. Simple as that! No bigotry even needed, even if it does exist.

So me addressing you about the topic is derailing a thread and you answering by saying liberals and cons are $%^$# isn't?

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
I think your comments about Dion's linguistic abilities, the importance of character over ability to lead in general, and Jack's moustache say more about you and what you think than some larger number of Canadians who didn't vote Liberal this time.

---

Well, fine. You can think that way if you want. However, I know natural ndpers who have stated that they might vote for the ndp except they feel uncomfortable with Jack's moustache. I said they were being silly but it's true. My sister said she had trouble with it even. Personally I think it's a stupid reason not to vote for somebody, but we are human and we make judgements about people's persona.

Case in point:

Robert Stanfield (a.k.a. 'The Best Prime Minister we never had'):

[What's your first reaction to this photo? Be honest.]

He looks like a wimp, does he not?

He was tossing a football back and forth about 40 times, but happened to fumble one of them. The sensationalist media made that a headline everywhere which many argued had cost him the election. Trudeau, whom he was running against, came out with a photo of his own, catching the football to further reinforce this narrative.

(Makes me think of the way ctv handled the Dion interview)

Kinda ridiculous, but we are human!

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: Interested Observer ]

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

I will look more into his politics. It's an interesting read on Wikipedia so far.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: Interested Observer ]

quote:

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Originally posted by RosaL:
"The Ukrainians aren't threatening to break up the country".

They should have.

---

Francophone Canadians (or Quebecois, Acadiens if you will) comprise an indigenous nation(s) within Canada.

This is the fundamental point that the angryphones don't get. Francophone Canadians did not voluntarily emigrate to an English-speaking society like other Canadians of continental European (or Asian, etc) origin.

They are entitled to the same respect and accommodation as any indigenous nation. This has been recognized since the Quebec Act (which was objected to by the original angryphones in the 13 colonies).

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: brookmere ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:

So you're saying that some percentage of the Liberals' support base who are bigoted will put aside their bigotry... if and only if their leader is of good character and "feisty"?

I find you're full of shit most of the time, even when you're not trying to derail a thread with comments about me personally.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

---

Harper's biggest gains were among folks in the north and new Canadians - I don't think there was necessarily a racist reaction to Dion's accent. Moreover, when in the campaign did the Liberals gain? After the debates, and from Dion's subsequent speeches. It tanked after the interview, but enough people could be swayed by Dion when they heard him speak.

I would say Dion's English was still a contributing factor. It meant he couldn't deliver pat sound-bites or especially strong speeches. Critically as well, it made him a poor messenger for a complex tax plan like the green shift.

As a result he was not really able to respond to Conservative attack ads portraying him as weak (his other problem is that he sounds really shrill and petulant when he goes negative - which he did too much in this campaign).

Actually I think Dion's main communication problem is body language and his lack thereof. He was awkward, which combined with his scrawny frame, meek looking face and rimless glasses to produce somebody that looked like a wimp or a lightweight (his makeover actually helped somewhat - and he was trained to give up his deer in the headlights stare).

The Liberals mishandled Dion. They made him largely an attack machine, presumably because they wanted him to be tough, and because his electoral strategy was to unite the left behind him, as their saviour from Harper. Go to Liberal.ca, almost all of their ads are negative.

Instead, they should have turned the image the Tories were creating of Dion around - turn Dion the weak leader into Dion the little guy, the political outsider, etc. You don't have to be a strong leader in the conventional mode to succeed in politics. The Liberals failed to do that - that is, they never created THEIR counter-story of who Stephane Dion was. They largely hid him in the election, till his debate performance. Even then, the big scoop of the campaign was left to Bob Rae.

They were limited - but diamonds are just coal with some effort. Dion can't do empathy, and could never be da little guy from Shawinigan or the man from Hope. Dion is not convincing as a "strong leader" type - he has no presence. He is also an ill fit for "the messiah" type candidacies like Trudeau's or Obama's.

The Liberal campaign should have spun a tale of Dion the honest man (he has done some good post-gomery rehabilitation for his party). They should have talked more about the backpack. They were too afraid to take a strong line on Quebec, which is what Dion was born for. Yet that was their story - Dion the "last honest man in Ottawa", who came to fight for the country he loves. Harper's attack on the green shift worked in part because people believed it was a tax grab - they trusted Harper over Dion. That is an utter failure on the part of the party.

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Originally posted by Parkdale High Park:
PS: question - who is less electable? Bob Skelly or Stephane Dion?

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I had to look it up, but Bill Vander Scam's Socreds won 6.7% more of the vote than Skelly's NDP in 1986. I think the news media helped out Vander Zalm's campaign while sabotaging Skelly's chances. Both Vander Zalm's and his party's record in power surely didn't help them in the next election.

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…Dion’s downfall may have had more to do with racism than people want to believe.

We’re talking the subtle kind that’s often directed, right here in supposedly multiculti Canada, at those whose grasp of English is a little less polished than ours.

“Can’t understand a word he’s saying. And he wants to be prime minister?”

The subtext is a familiar one for immigrants. “Can’t speak English and you want to live in this country...?” Etc, etc.

CTV’s now-famous ambush of Dion in that “Did-he-or-didn’t-he-understand-the-question” clip was no accident. But the incident says more about the attitude of the Canadian public and its intolerance for non-English speakers than it does about CTV’s bad news judgment.

Bloc leader, Gilles Duceppe has alluded to the language double standard in Ottawa, where he says the two official languages are English and simultaneous translation.

“[It’s required] that a francophone speak an English that is almost perfect,” he says, “but when an anglophone makes efforts they say he at least tries to speak French.”

Seems cruel to say, but English-first-and-only speakers – EFOs, let’s call them – rarely go the extra mile to really listen when distractions like a thick accent and messed-up syntax get in the way of the Queen’s lingo. Impatience quickly gives way to intolerance. – NOW

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Originally posted by Mojoroad1:
Totally disagree. That his English is poor there is no question, and the hatchet job by CTV was pretty vile. Remember though Harper was first out of the gate to exploit it and he made it newsworthy.

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Also it is obvious that the Quebec media never ever comments about any party leaders inadequacies in French.

I think Dion lost because the Liberals ran a bad campaign and in BC they concentrated on attacking the NDP. I am sure that Dion's disgusting attitude towards progressive people who didn't support his party caused him far more votes in BC than any language problem. We understood his disdain for us very very clearly.

Edited to add: he was very clear in English when he announced in BC that Campbell was a great environmentalist and a progressive voice in Canada. Quite frankly it was what he said that sunk him not his accent.

[ 30 October 2008: Message edited by: kropotkin1951 ]

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
In elections I have personally voted in Canadians have elected to government parties headed by Pierre Trudeau, Brian Mulroney, Jean Chretien and Paul Martin. This is obvious proof that Canadians can't abide having politicians from Quebec leading the country.

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
In elections I have personally voted in Canadians have elected to government parties headed by Pierre Trudeau, Brian Mulroney, Jean Chretien and Paul Martin. This is obvious proof that Canadians can't abide having politicians from Quebec leading the country.

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That has nothing to do with it. The fact is that assumption of the leadership of the Liberal party by Francophone Canadians as a means of securing a political base in Quebec, is a political expedient.

Also Brian Mulroney is of Irish extraction, and Paul Martin, mostly of Francophone extraction was born in Windsor. In fact his parents sent him to a French language school because his French was so bad.

Of those you mention, only Pierre Trudeau, and Chretian actually spoke French as their first language, and spoke English with a noticable French accent.

Perhaps you mean that Canadians are not very biased against Catholics. The above list might qualify in the paradigm.

Straws you have are now fewer. Please continue...

[ 30 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Straws you have are now fewer. Please continue...

[ 30 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
Its like saying Stockwell Day lost when he was running for PM because people in central Canada especially Quebec couldn't abide a BC politician becoming PM.

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How much of Dion's downfall is due to his poor English?

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
And I suppose the election of Barack Obama as President of the United States next week will be proof once and for all that racial prejudice against black people in that country is a myth.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Fer chrissakes, man, grab a clue! It's not about geography.

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Originally posted by Cueball:

What more dp you need than the vile coverage Dion got from CTV to establish that prejudice exists right to the very top of our social institutions.

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Once in a rare while, ( during a full lunar eclipse or whatever strange astrological phenomenon that must be happening right now)
I (gulp) agree with that one Cueball.

ETA: but not for the reasons of French baiting. If Harpo were French,
I doubt this would have been an issue. It was a Conservative gimme by CTV.

[ 30 October 2008: Message edited by: Mojoroad1 ]

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
And if socialists do not vote for him it is because they are racist or is it because they see him for the corporate backed imperialist he is?

You missed my point so I will explain further. There are many people in Canada that resent the fact that to become PM it is distinct advantage to be from one particular province regardless of the language spoken at home while growing up. That is a different sentiment than rejecting Dion based on his language skills. Mulroney being the most outrageous example of an asshole that relied heavily on his being born and raised in Quebec for his political success.

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So you are saying the bias is regionally based. Odd that you seem perfectly comfortable asserting that there is a prima facie case for the existance of a regional bias, but completely unable to fathom the concept that their might be other biases that are operative in mainstream discourse.

I too was brought up in Vancouver, I can confirm that my awareness of language issues and biases against Francophone Canadians was pretty shallow, and remained so until I moved to Ontario. Mind you this is not to say that British Colombians are free from such biases, because often bias expresses itself through shear ignorance, marked often by the flat denial that such biases exist.

Undue favouratism toward a specific discrete ethnic entity, is a common theme in expressed prejudice. Google for example Jews, ZOG, world conspiracy, NSDAP.

[ 30 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

That said, I really didn't listen to what Dion had to say, but more read what he had to say, and daily in the TorStar. I agree, there is a double standard in Canada around the fact that most folks have an expectation that 2nd langauge speakers will adapt quicker than our own expectations or awareness of our intolerance.

So, no. I doubt you did not vote for Dion because of his bad english. I suspect that you did so because he is a Liberal, and you have some notion that the NDP is somehow different from Liberals.

I think I disagree with you on that latter point but that is immaterial.

The fact that you did not vote on the basis of prejudice can not be extended to mean that all people who did not vote for Dion voted for the same reason that you did. We can see that most people did not cast their vote for exactly the same reasons as you did by the simple fact that most Canadians did not vote NDP as you did.

I know this may be shocking to hear, but not everyone thinks the same way as you do.

[ 30 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:
I think someone mentioned here that the problem with the wankers in the NDP is that they just can not get over their partisanship, or see things in anything other than black and white.

So, no. I doubt you did not vote for Dion because of his bad english. I suspect that you did so because he is a Liberal, and you have some notion that the NDP is somehow different from Liberals.

I think I disagree with you on that latter point but that is immaterial.

The fact that you did not vote on the basis of prejudice can not be extended to mean that all people who did not vote for Dion voted for the same reason that you did. We can see that most people did not cast their vote for exactly the same reasons as you did by the simple fact that most Canadians did not vote NDP as you did.

[ 30 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
Your arrogance knows no bounds apparently.

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To me, denying the existance of anti-francophone prejudice is just as much wankery as the assertion that there is no bias against Jews, or bias against people of colour. It's just plain denial.

Calling it "wanking" is being kind.

[ 30 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Hey Kropotkin, how ya doin'?

ETA: Time to close for length.

[ 30 October 2008: Message edited by: oldgoat ]