babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » right brain babble   » humanities & science   » Study shows placebo effect has physiological component

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Study shows placebo effect has physiological component
Jimmy Brogan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3290

posted 25 August 2005 04:46 PM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Study shows brain chemistry link to placebo effect

quote:
ANN ARBOR, Mich. (AP) — Patients will feel better if they believe they're taking painkillers — even if their doses contain no medication, according to a University of Michigan study.


The study, examining the placebo effect, shows that the brain releases chemicals that relieve pain in patients who believe they'be being treated.


It is to be published Wednesday in the Journal of Neuroscience.


Researchers say the findings could lead to new ways to treat chronic pain.


"This deals another serious blow to the idea that the placebo effect is a purely psychological, with no physical basis," said Dr. Jon-Kar Zubieta, associate professor of psychiatry and radiology at the Michigan Medical School. "The mind-body connection is quite clear."



From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Grazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10225

posted 25 August 2005 07:45 PM      Profile for Grazer        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is news??? There would have to be a physiological basis for the pain relief. Christ! When are we going to start spending health dollars intelligently?
From: tba | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
retread
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9957

posted 25 August 2005 07:54 PM      Profile for retread     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is pretty old hat even medically; a small percentage of terminally ill cancer patients in the 50's completely recovered when given sugar pills (back when people believed in the folks wearing white lab coats).

The problem has always been how to produce the placebo effect; people become cynical, and then the effect stops.


From: flatlands | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3290

posted 25 August 2005 08:35 PM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
There would have to be a physiological basis for the pain relief.

Well now we have something a little more definitive than your hunch - like the actual brain chemistry at work in the PE. As the study states this insight could lead to new and effective pain remedies.


quote:
When are we going to start spending health dollars intelligently?

It is quite difficult to tell in advance which lines of research are going to produce beneficial treatments. Perhaps you have some insight you could share?

Seems to me studying the complex relationship between the phycological and physiological manifestations of pain and pain relief is a very important subject of research.


From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Grazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10225

posted 25 August 2005 08:53 PM      Profile for Grazer        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Well now we have something a little more definitive than your hunch - like the actual brain chemistry at work in the PE. As the study states this insight could lead to new and effective pain remedies.

Good point if you mean the actual biochemical pathways. However, this "news" was posted as being the mere fact of a physiological basis (without specifying) which would fall under the rubric of a priori knowledge.

quote:
It is quite difficult to tell in advance which lines of research are going to produce beneficial treatments. Perhaps you have some insight you could share?

I'd be happy to. We can immediately write off all biochemical psychiatric research for a start, because that's a born loser.

quote:
Seems to me studying the complex relationship between the phycological and physiological manifestations of pain and pain relief is a very important subject of research.

Well, yeah, I was a little harsh. Of course pain and pain relief are important. I was responding more to the "Hey, there's a physiological basis to placebo!!!" tone of wonderment.


From: tba | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Grazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10225

posted 25 August 2005 08:53 PM      Profile for Grazer        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
oops -- double post

[ 25 August 2005: Message edited by: Grazer ]


From: tba | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3290

posted 25 August 2005 09:53 PM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
We can immediately write off all biochemical psychiatric research for a start, because that's a born loser.

Just a quick glance around Science Daily's front page would seem to put the lie to that statement.

Neurotransmitter orexin tied to pleasure

quote:
PHILADELPHIA, Aug. 25 (UPI) -- University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine researchers have discovered the neurotransmitter orexin influences reward-processing in the brain.

By identifying the relationship between orexin neurons and behaviors associated with reward seeking, drug relapse and addiction, researchers hope to find new treatments for drug addiction.


Anorexia linked to overactive dopamine

quote:
PITTSBURGH, July 7 (UPI) -- A University of Pittsburgh study says the eating disorder anorexia nervosa may be due to over-activity of a chemical system deep inside the brain.

Those with the disorder are driven to be excessively thin but seem unaware of the seriousness of their condition.

The study, reported in the journal Biological Psychiatry, found such people have overactive dopamine receptors in the brain's basal ganglia.

This brain area is known to play a role in how people learn from experience and make choices.

The disorder affects about 1 percent of American women, some of whom die from complications of the disease. The research may point to a molecular target for development of more effective treatments than those currently available.



From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 12:20 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Just a quick glance around Science Daily's front page would seem to put the lie to that statement.

On the contrary, a moment's thought would put the stupidity to yourstatement.

First of all, neither pleasure nor anorexia are psychiatric disorders.

Secondly, before you rush off to gather some more Big Pharma driven "research," consider what I am saying: NO MATTER WHAT CORRELATION BETWEEN BRAIN CHEMICALS AND PSYCHIATRIC DISORDERS IS EVER FOUND, IT'S STILL MISGUIDED TO ATTEMPT TO TREAT THE "DISORDER" WITH CHEMICALS.

Do you get it, dummy? If someone is depressed and their serotonin drops, should you:

(a) Explore how their depression arose; or
(b) Medicate them into compliance.

The correct answer is A!!!!!

For those on the Lower Mainland, MindFreedom British Columbia is holding its opening party at Gallery Gachet in Gastown on September 24th at 7:00 p.m. Everyone is welcome.

Psychiatry is a sham. Forced psychiatry is a human rights violation. Join us.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4791

posted 26 August 2005 12:26 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wrong. The correct answer is a) AND b).

Yeah, psychiatry is a sham...

Are you a scientologist or something.

[ 26 August 2005: Message edited by: Surferosad ]


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 12:31 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Surferosad:
Wrong. The correct answer is a) AND b).

Yeah, psychiatry is a sham...

Are you a scientologist or something.

[ 26 August 2005: Message edited by: Surferosad ]


If the correct answer is A & B then WHY DOES PSYCHIATRY LEAP TO B?????????

Yes, indeed psychiatry is a hoax, an evil hoax, perpetrated by Big Pharma, among others. No, I am not a scientologist. I am an activist for the psychiatrically labelled.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 12:33 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Psychiatry has yet to come up with any biochemical test to indicate any psychiatric diagnosis. Reputable studies by the World Health Organization prove that the emotionally ill do better WITHOUT psychiatric intervention.

Despite these hard facts, thousands of people are incarcerated, drugged and electroshocked against their wills. It is the most under-examined human rights violation in this country. And we're going to stop it.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3290

posted 26 August 2005 12:38 PM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Umm brain chemistry = behaviour. Understanding the causes and effects of this relationship is an important area of research.

Now take a pill Zero and call me when you get a clue.


From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 12:41 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JimmyBrogan:
Umm brain chemistry = behaviour. Understanding the causes and effects of this relationship is an important area of research.

Now take a pill Zero and call me when you get a clue.


Listen, dipshit, I know as much about this subject matter as anyone alive today. Brain chemistry = behaviour absolutely. Also equals perception and feeling. Duh.

You miss the point! Cause and effect!!! The chemicals don't magically change without a reason. Get a fucking grip.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 12:42 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You're a clueless fuckwad.
From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3290

posted 26 August 2005 12:47 PM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So craphead if behaviour is a direct result of brain chemistry why should this not be researched?
From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 12:52 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JimmyBrogan:
So craphead if behaviour is a direct result of brain chemistry why should this not be researched?

Because, asshole, Big Pharma is pulling the wool over our eyes.

Behaviour, all emotions, all perceptions are indeed wrapped up in brain chemistry and research on how that all works is obviously good. BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY'RE DOING!

They're trying to link biochemicals to socially constructed diseases and "fix" them.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
dano
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4274

posted 26 August 2005 12:53 PM      Profile for dano     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm glad we're name calling , however, Zorro has a point.

quote:
WHY DOES PSYCHIATRY LEAP TO B?????????

Cause they are misguided... all I can say.

My mom has suffered half her life from depression. She has been on Paxil for a good part of that time. She'll agree 100% that it needs to be A AND B.... if you just do B, then the problems will persist and you will be screwed over on the long run. It's a major problem. Now whether we can work without the B is another question.

I do believe that often we can work without the B if we work at it early enough. Without Paxil however, my mom would probably be dead by now.

Now Paxil is a crappy ass drug that I hate... Just 2 years ago she tried getting off it and she went crazy sick and entered a massive depression period and her doctor had no other choice but to put her back on it and even then it took a while to stabilize... THAT is another debate and it sucks big time.

Shes done a lot of councelling over the years, but the help just isn't there, or very rare... hence our health system sucks badly when dealing with mental illenesses (thats just one thing that sucks...)


From: Gatineau, Qc | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4791

posted 26 August 2005 12:54 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So Big Pharma are evil (I'm not disagreeing) therefore all psychiatry is crap.

Give the man (woman, person, whatever) the Nobel prize for medicine!


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 12:56 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm sorry for your mum. I have an aunt who has also suffered terribly. There may be a place for drug therapy but to pretend that it's a cure is ridiculous. Nothing will ever get solved until the underlying issues are addressed. Drugs can, in the short term, help and I support anyone who tries whatever it takes. My problem is with Big Pharma sleeping with Forced Psychiatry and producing one nasty human rights violation.
From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 12:57 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Surferosad:
So Big Pharma are evil (I'm not disagreeing) therefore all psychiatry is crap.

Give the man (woman, person, whatever) the Nobel prize for medicine!


If you can't follow an argument, please keep your asinine comments to yourself. Psychiatry is shit, even without Big Pharma.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3290

posted 26 August 2005 12:58 PM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I sense your serotonin levels are a bit low this morning Zero.
From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 01:00 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JimmyBrogan:
I sense your serotonin levels are a bit low this morning Zero.

You think I'm depressed? I'm not depressed. I'm angry. And the anger is entirely appropriate. Thanks for the personal slur, though.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4791

posted 26 August 2005 01:03 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zorro:

If you can't follow an argument, please keep your asinine comments to yourself. Psychiatry is shit, even without Big Pharma.


Ok... Why is that, wise guy? Share your wisdom with us, oh great anti-shrink crusader! Why is psychiatry "shit"?


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 01:07 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Surferosad:
Ok... Why is that, wise guy? Share your wisdom with us, oh great anti-shrink crusader! Why is psychiatry "shit"?

Biomedical psychiatry is based on an unproven theory involving chemical imbalance. The alleged imbalance is not measurable. Likewise, "balance" is not measurable. Psychiatry relies on the DSM IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual) which categorizes pretty much all unwanted human behaviour into psychiatric disorders. Psychiatrists then treat these disorders with chemicals. In many cases, these chemicals are habit-forming and dangerous.

Even worse, psychiatrists have been given the legal authority to force-drug and force-electroshock.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 01:10 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Psychiatric patients are routinely held down and injected with toxic drugs. Seclusion cells are used. In some cases, patients are tied to their beds. Electroshock is forced on patients. Unfortunately, I'm not exaggerating. All of these crimes were done to me. Lobotomies are being done again in Vancouver. I'm not mentally ill yet I was drugged, electroshocked and incarcerated. That's why psychiatry is shit.
From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3290

posted 26 August 2005 01:11 PM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I know as much about this subject matter as anyone alive today

But in your profile your profession is listed as clerk. Got your Nobel prize and then retired to the mail room?


From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 01:12 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JimmyBrogan:
But in your profile your profession is listed as clerk. Got your Nobel prize and then retired to the mail room?

News flash! Not everybody tells the truth when filling out internet forum profiles.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 01:14 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Anyway, a Nobel prize in psychiatry is a hollow honour. Moniz, the guy who witnessed pigs being stunned with electricity prior to slaughter and decided it would be good to try this on psychiatric patients, won the Nobel.
From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4791

posted 26 August 2005 01:17 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You are picking and choosing a bunch of bad psychiatric practices and then generalising them to the rest of the science.

People who go "some blacks are bad, therefore all blacks are evil" perpetrate the same kind of fallacy.


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4791

posted 26 August 2005 01:21 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zorro:
Anyway, a Nobel prize in psychiatry is a hollow honour. Moniz, the guy who witnessed pigs being stunned with electricity prior to slaughter and decided it would be good to try this on psychiatric patients, won the Nobel.

Egas Moniz received the Nobal prize in 1949 for work he had done in the 1920's and 1930's.

Lets just say that things in the psychiatric and psychological sciences are not quite the same anymore.

[ 26 August 2005: Message edited by: Surferosad ]


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 01:21 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Surferosad:
You are picking and choosing a bunch of bad psychiatric practices and then generalising them to the rest of the science.

People who go "some blacks are bad, therefore all blacks are evil" perpetrate the same kind of fallacy.


Not picking and choosing. All of these things happen routinely on psych wards throughout North America. I'm not generalizing to science, not even to medicine, just to the fraud that we call psychiatry.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 01:22 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Surferosad:
Egas Moniz received the Nobal prize in 1949 for work he had done in the 1920's and 1930's.

Lets just say that things in the psychiatric and psychological sciences are not quite the same anymore.


You're right. They're even worse.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4791

posted 26 August 2005 01:22 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zorro:

Not picking and choosing. All of these things happen routinely on psych wards throughout North America. I'm not generalizing to science, not even to medicine, just to the fraud that we call psychiatry.


And I should take your word for it, right?

[ 26 August 2005: Message edited by: Surferosad ]


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4791

posted 26 August 2005 01:23 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zorro:

You're right. They're even worse.


You arguments are not terribly convincing.


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 01:24 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Surferosad:
I should take your word for it, right?

Of course not. Read these, if you want more info:

Bob Whitaker's "Mad in America"
Irit Shimrat's "Call Me Crazy"
Peter Breggin's "Toxic Psychiatry"
Thomas Szasz's "The Myth of Mental Illness"

There is tons of stuff out there. Knock yourself out.

Read your local Mental Health Act. Visit a mental hospital. See for yourself. Come to MindFreedomBC's opening party. Open your eyes.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 01:25 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Surferosad:
You arguments are not terribly convincing.

Not to a closed mind like yours, no, of course not. But the fact is that psychiatric patients have their human rights violated EVERY SINGLE DAY IN THIS COUNTRY!!! And it's got to stop.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 01:27 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Surferosad:
Lets just say that things in the psychiatric and psychological sciences are not quite the same anymore.

Keep psychology out of this. Psychological counselling is enormously helpful.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3290

posted 26 August 2005 01:29 PM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Let me show you lower than the filth on the bottom of my shoe how this thread could have gone if you were not quite so angry.

Zorro:

You know Jimmy the kind of research you linked to has often been used in the past by big pharmaceutical companies for treatments of questionable psychiatric disorders. This kind of behaviour research is a key part of their profit strategy.

Jimmy: I completely agree. Pharmacuitical companies have a long record of criminal profiteering from phychiatric drugs of questionabale value.

I was merely responding to Grazer's assertion that researching the biochemistry of behaviour is a dead end. It can and has led to many advances, as could the lines of research I linked to.


And then we could have had a debate about how to determine appropriate lines of research or some such.

But maybe this has been more fun.


From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4791

posted 26 August 2005 01:31 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zorro:

Not to a closed mind like yours, no, of course not. But the fact is that psychiatric patients have their human rights violated EVERY SINGLE DAY IN THIS COUNTRY!!! And it's got to stop.


Blah, blah, blah, where's the beef?


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 01:32 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JimmyBrogan:
Let me show you lower than the filth on the bottom of my shoe how this thread could have gone if you were not quite so angry.

Zorro:

You know Jimmy the kind of research you linked to has often been used in the past by big pharmaceutical companies for treatments of questionable psychiatric disorders. This kind of behaviour research is a key part of their profit strategy.

Jimmy: I completely agree. Pharmacuitical companies have a long record of criminal profiteering from phychiatric drugs of questionabale value.

I was merely responding to Grazer's assertion that researching the biochemistry of behaviour is a dead end. It can and has led to many advances, as could the lines of research I linked to.


And then we could have had a debate about how to determine appropriate lines of research or some such.

But maybe this has been more fun.


Listen, snotball I'd be embarrassed to wipe on a Kleenex, I wouldn't have got so angry if you didn't come off sounding so arrogant.

We could try again, though.

I'm concerned that otherwise fine research will be bastardized by Big Pharma. Have you got anything to add there, Jimmy, my friend?


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 01:34 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Surferosad:
Blah, blah, blah, where's the beef?

You're saying "blah, blah, blah" to human rights violations? Forced drugging and forced electroshock? That doesn't concern you one tiny bit?


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4791

posted 26 August 2005 01:35 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zorro:

Keep psychology out of this. Psychological counselling is enormously helpful.


But at their base, they're essentially the same science! Psychologists also use the DSM IV for diagnostics. Psychologists often work in tandem with shrinks! The shrink prescribes and the psychologist counsels! The only difference between a psychologist and a shrink is that a shrink can prescribe medicine! And, in case you didn't know, there are psychologists who are pushing to have the right to prescribe!


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4791

posted 26 August 2005 01:35 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zorro:

You're saying "blah, blah, blah" to human rights violations? Forced drugging and forced electroshock? That doesn't concern you one tiny bit?


That doesn't concern me because I don't think they exist to the extent you would like me to believe.


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 26 August 2005 01:36 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jimmy, can you give me an example of how researching the biochemistry of psychological disorders has led to "advances"?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7024

posted 26 August 2005 01:37 PM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Isn't there still some controversy about whether or not the placebo effect is a bona fide health phenomenon, rather than just a built-in error that comes from the construction of scientifc study?

I.e., statistically speaking, those who are chosen as test subjects necissarily report a particular health problem and are thus deviating from the mean. Would it not be natural that a certain percentage of them would tend to regress toward the mean over time?

I do seem to recall that the hallmark 1950s study has been questioned in recent years.


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 01:38 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Surferosad:
But at their base, they're essentially the same science!

No, they are utterly different!

quote:
Psychologists also use the DSM IV for diagnostics.

Yes, but they don't have the authority or the inclination to medicate for these "disorders."

quote:
The only difference between a psychologist and a shrink is that a shrink can prescribe medicine!

No way. Hugely different approaches to emotional suffering. The biggest difference is that psychiatry is covered by the Medical Services Plan while psychology is not, which is exactly backwards from how it should be.

quote:
And, in case you didn't know, there are psychologists who are pushing to have the right to prescribe!

In Canada? No, I didn't know.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 01:38 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
oops -- double post

[ 26 August 2005: Message edited by: Zorro ]


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 01:40 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Surferosad:
That doesn't concern me because I don't think they exist to the extent you would like me to believe.

Well, stay comfortable in your ignorance, then. I don't believe people are starving to death on the other side of the world so I'm not concerned.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 26 August 2005 01:41 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Interesting, Tape.

One real and ongoing problem with a lot of medical research is that medical researchers and doctors are not usually very well trained in either statistics or logic.

So they build up a lot of data, but who knows whether to trust the ways they interpret it?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 01:47 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Interesting, Tape.

One real and ongoing problem with a lot of medical research is that medical researchers and doctors are not usually very well trained in either statistics or logic.

So they build up a lot of data, but who knows whether to trust the ways they interpret it?


Another issue is that a lot of research is paid for and directed by pharmaceutical manufacturers. Evidence against their drugs is distorted or suppressed. GlaxoSmithKline, for instance, chose not to report the suicide of one of their test subjects. They said it was a "trade secret."


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 26 August 2005 01:57 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sheesh.

Pretty soon, we're all going to have to insert TMs into our obituaries.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3290

posted 26 August 2005 02:03 PM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Have you got anything to add there, Jimmy, my friend?

Oh it was definitely better the other way. No worries Zorro.

skdadl I'm no expert but I thought there were some very effective treatments for schizophrenia and bi-polar disorders. Nothing like a panacea but effective nonetheless.

I'm very uncomfortable being put to defend psychiatry. I find it to have been mostly a psuedoscience akin to economics or sociology.
But the study of brain chemistry and genetics and how their interrelationship informs our behaviour is very promising. It's like real science.

I'm advocating basic understanding as opposed to anything practical. The practical will evolve from the higher level of understanding.

[ 26 August 2005: Message edited by: JimmyBrogan ]


From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 26 August 2005 02:07 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jimmy, I'm pretty much in your shoes too, although I have some reason to doubt a lot of what is said about the psychopharmaceuticals, and definitely to worry about the civil-libertarian implications of blind faith in them, which sometimes means that we are allowing institutions to use vulnerable people as guinea pigs.

I'm just hoping that you and Zorro can begin to find some common ground on this uncertain topic. Maybe Surfer, too.

[ 26 August 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 02:42 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JimmyBrogan:
Oh it was definitely better the other way. No worries Zorro.

You know, it really was. So, asswipe, listen up.

quote:
skdadl I'm no expert but I thought there were some very effective treatments for schizophrenia and bi-polar disorders. Nothing like a panacea but effective nonetheless.

No! No!! No!!! Treatment is no more effective than it was in the time of leeches and beatings.

Schizophrenia is treated with so-called anti-psychotics. This is a farce. There is no such thing as an anti-psychotic. What they really are is major tranquillizers. They "work" by suppressing the central nervous system. They may lessen hallucinations, etc. but they also take away your ability to think and feel. This is why over-medicated patients stare at the walls and drool -- because they CAN'T do anything else! Antipsychotics (even the newer atypical antipsychotics) cause tardive dyskinesia, a devastating and permanent neurological disorder, in somewhere between 15% and 50% of long-term users.

Bipolar disorder is treated with mood stabilizers, antidepressants and electroshock. In many cases (including mine), bipolar is actually caused by antidepressants. Again, these drugs may have an effect but the cost is unbearably high.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 02:47 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Needless to say, if patients choose drug therapy, that's fine, so long as the principle of informed consent is applied.

But when we're talking about involuntary treatment, we've moved over into fascism.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
chubbybear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10025

posted 26 August 2005 03:17 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Surferosad:
But at their base, they're essentially the same science! Psychologists also use the DSM IV for diagnostics. Psychologists often work in tandem with shrinks! The shrink prescribes and the psychologist counsels! The only difference between a psychologist and a shrink is that a shrink can prescribe medicine! And, in case you didn't know, there are psychologists who are pushing to have the right to prescribe!
Do you think! You could use! A few more! Exclamation points! All right, I agree that all science is worthy of intelligent skepticism, including psychiatry and psychology. But pointing to unverifiable accusations about ongoing abuses like "one flew over the cuckoos nest" simply isn't going to convince anyone. I would like to see a little more substance. And even if you could find significant abuse within psychiatric hospitals, what does that have to do with patients in private offices? If some medications are harmful, and some certainly are, why is all medication harmful? For me, effexor has been a life saver. For another, it may be a misery. Criticism is good, but messianic fervency reduces credibility.

From: nowhere | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 03:17 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Read all about one of biomedical psychiatry's staunchest apologists.

E. Fuller Torrey


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 03:17 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
oops -- double post

[ 26 August 2005: Message edited by: Zorro ]


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 03:28 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chubbybear:
But pointing to unverifiable accusations about ongoing abuses like "one flew over the cuckoos nest" simply isn't going to convince anyone.

Wow! Unverifiable? Are you kidding me? It happened to me! I saw it happen to others! What the fuck are you talking about?

quote:
I would like to see a little more substance. And even if you could find significant abuse within psychiatric hospitals, what does that have to do with patients in private offices?

Everything. The biomedical model has been swallowed by the public -- hook, line and sinker -- that's what leads to abuse of the mentally ill.

quote:
If some medications are harmful, and some certainly are, why is all medication harmful? For me, effexor has been a life saver. For another, it may be a misery. Criticism is good, but messianic fervency reduces credibility.

I'm glad it works for you. Now, how would you feel if it was forced upon you? If you weren't allowed out of a lock-down unit before you agreed to take it?

"Messianic fervency"? Pretty hard to stay cool when you're life's being threatened. As a member of our First Nations, you shock me with your lack of empathy.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477

posted 26 August 2005 03:35 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Zorro, it would be better if you could practice some self-control instead of viciously attacking anyone who disagrees with you. Take a deep breath, go for a walk, calm down.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 03:38 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Seems the Supreme Court of BC just verified some of those unverifiable accusations:

*****

Stephen Mullins v. Vancouver General Hospital

Stephen has won his case! Yesterday the Supreme Court of B.C. awarded him $15,000 damages and costs for false arrest, false imprisonment and assault.

The Court found that, suffering a panic attack brought on by family deaths and business pressures and going to VGH for help, Stephen was wrongfully seized and beaten by VGH security people, locked in a prison-like cell and drugged to unconsciousness without being examined by doctors who signed false Certificates after he was detained and imprisoned.

Unfortunately the trial judge rejected arguments that Stephen's constitutional rights were breached by the precipitate and negligent acts of the defendants. In effect, bank robbers, child rapists and murderers have more rights than honest, law-abiding citizens who suffer emotional upset or more serious mental illness. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms purports to require that everyone who is detained or imprisoned be informed of the reason for the seizure and of the right to talk to a lawyer and he must promptly be given the means of calling a lawyer.

Doctors at the trial testified they never inform a patient of the lawyer rights and frequently they don't explain why he is being locked up. One doctor testified that he personally does this to from one to five people every working day at VGH. The Judge in Stephen's case held that since I - a lawyer - showed up at the hospital four hours after Stephen was knocked out, no harm had been done by failure to let him call me before he was seized. This will be of great comfort to the police who will be able to beat confessions out of suspects before complying with the Constitution.
I am very proud of Stephen in this matter. Knowing that by bringing his case before the public, he might be branded a "lunatic" by the illegal actions of the doctors and the hospital, he showed great courage and determination in standing up to the opposing forces of the medical field, the Government of B.C. and the B.C. Schizophrenia Society (at times eight lawyers) who strongly supported the misconduct of the Defendants. Hopefully his success may save other innocent people from the brutal and thoughtless practices of doctors, hospitals and security staffs evidenced in this case.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 03:40 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Contrarian:
Zorro, it would be better if you could practice some self-control instead of viciously attacking anyone who disagrees with you. Take a deep breath, go for a walk, calm down.

On the contrary, if you read from the beginning of this thread, I think you'd have to agree that I've done pretty well. "Viciously attack"? Wow.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4791

posted 26 August 2005 05:12 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, lets throw the baby with the bath water, shall we?
From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
chubbybear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10025

posted 26 August 2005 05:31 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zorro:
As a member of our First Nations, you shock me with your lack of empathy.
Ok, I'm sorry, calm down. I guess I come from one of the mean First Nations. Look, I've been involuntarily hospitalized and didn't like it. I've also been involuntarily incarcerated and didn't like it. That doesn't mean I advocate the abolition of the criminal code and police. Rather, I support reform and responsible oversight. I don't doubt that abuses occur, and have no reason to doubt that they have happened to you. All I am saying is that doesn't mean all psychiatry and psychology and medication is bogus. Some people, including myself, have had great success with therapy and medication.

From: nowhere | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
chubbybear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10025

posted 26 August 2005 05:36 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zorro:
Now, how would you feel if it was forced upon you? If you weren't allowed out of a lock-down unit before you agreed to take it?
Been there, done that. No it's not pleasant. And I would advocate reform and oversight. But I still would not deny people therapy and medication if it helps to keep them alive and functioning.

From: nowhere | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10242

posted 26 August 2005 06:11 PM      Profile for Zorro        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chubbybear:
But I still would not deny people therapy and medication if it helps to keep them alive and functioning.

Neither would I. I would support people trying anything that they want -- antidepressants, psychotherapy, magnetic therapy, lime juice, crack cocaine, whatever. My issue is strictly with involuntary treatment because it's a human rights violation and a crime against humanity.


From: Central Saanich | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca