*Protest*Picket*Action*
Thursday, Nov 9th.
4:30-5:30pm

U.S. Consulate
1095 W. Pender St. & Thurlow St.
(Downtown Vancouver)

Join us in our ongoing monthly protest actions to
demand freedom for the 5 Cuban Heroes illegally held
in U.S. prisons and to show solidarity with the
families of the 5 anti-terrorist Cubans!

Following the International Day of Action on September
23 2006, for freedom of the Cuban 5, we in Vancouver
as well as millions around the world and in Cuba
who demonstrated on this day are determined to
continue the fight for freedom of these 5 political
prisoners, who have been unjustly imprisoned in the
U.S. for over eight years.

Antonio Guerrero, Ramon Labanino, Fernando Gonzalez,
Rene Gonzalez and Gerardo Hernandez were investigating
activities organized by right-wing, anti-Cuban
terrorist groups that have organized countless acts of
terrorism against the Cuban people with full support
of the U.S. government. These acts of terrorism such
as bombing airplanes, hotels, and the poisoning of
livestock and water reserves have led to the deaths of
3500 innocent Cubans. These 5 brave heroes are in
prison still today for attempting to stop this
criminal terrorism.

Organized by:
Free the Cuban 5 Committee-Vancouver
604.719.6947 |
[email protected]
http://www.vancubasolidarity.com/freethefivevan.html

Here's part of a Law Union resolution on the Cuban Five:

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11. On June 8, 2001, the five Cubans living in Florida were convicted in federal court in Miami of charges of conspiracy to commit espionage, conspiracy to act as an unregistered foreign agent, and, in one case, conspiracy to commit murder;

12. The "Cuban Five" did not receive a fair trial. Defence lawyers unsuccessfully sought a change of venue from right-wing Cuban-American controlled Miami, and they were prevented from using key evidence of terrorist activities directed against Cuba by Cuban-American organizations in Miami. Their convictions are all under appeal.

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Law Union of Ontario and its members support the efforts of the defence committees of the "Cuban Five" to educate the public on the injustices of these convictions, and to aid in efforts that these convictions be overturned, these charges be dropped and the "Cuban Five" released;

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FREE the CUBAN Five from U.S. gulags now!

And the American empire must pay the Cuban people over $300 billion dollars compensation for damages incurred by U.S. state-sanctioned acts of terrorismo over 40 years, and the head gringo must make a formal public apology to the Cuban people. And pack up all the military clap trap, torture paraphenalia, and get the hell out of Guantanamo.

Viva la revolucion!

[ 13 November 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by jeff house:
.. decided they had gotten a bum rap from the US courts, some much more so than others.

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González began her story in tears. Pointing to pictures of her father on a banner in front of the room, she said, “This has destroyed the life of my family. I was six when my dad left Cuba. Terrorism against Cuba is not paranoia. I was 12 when my mom took us to live with our dad in Miami. I knew what the revolution meant. My dad was the same person I knew before. He took me to the meetings of the terrorists. I heard them planning to destroy my system through violence. Then when we went home my dad taught me the opposite. When you hear these things, you see the difference.”

González ended, “It’s not fair—we’re going to fight.”

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Which ones were more guilty than the others?

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At the time I read the trial transcripts, I had a clear opinion that one of them had gotten a REALLY bum rap. I had less sympathy for the others.

I mean, if you are an employee of Cuban State Security living underground in the United States, it shouldn't be surprising that you end up charged with something.

The Cuban Five support campaign stressed the fact that they had been refused a change of venue, and I believed that the Campaign was right to do so. Miami is not a neutral environment for pro-Castro Cubans. So the jury pool was tainted.

But that's not really a substantive point.

The Cuban Five Committee argues that it is not espionage for the group to place an agent undercover at the Boca Chica Naval Trainign base was not espionage, because no "classified" material was discovered in the agent's possession.

But the law doesn't require that a spy have classified information to be guilty. The mere surreptitious sending of military information to a hostile foreign state is an offence in many countries. Canada's definition of "treason" comes close to this, too.

The fellow who was really badly treated was Gerardo Hernandez. He discovered that an illegal flight over Havana was going to occur. He told the Cuban authorities about it. When the aircraft was challenged by Cuban authorities telling it to turn back, it refused. (I have read the intercepts.)

The ridiculous part was that HErnandez was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder.

Defence of airspace is not murder. If the Cubans had lain in wait and then shot the invading plane down, the case might be stronger. But they didn't.

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Originally posted by jeff house:
At the time I read the trial transcripts, I had a clear opinion that one of them had gotten a REALLY bum rap. I had less sympathy for the others.

I mean, if you are an employee of Cuban State Security living underground in the United States, it shouldn't be surprising that you end up charged with something.

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The reason they were charged (not with actual espionage, but with conspiracy to commit espionage) was that the evidence they had uncovered clearly implicated Luis Posada Carriles in plans to commit terrorist acts. But Posada was working at the behest and expense of the FBI and/or the CIA, and the evidence uncovered by the Cuban Five could not be allowed to get out. So they arrested the Cuban Five instead, on trumped-up charges.

Your failure to condemn unequivocally the treatment of the Cuban Five puts your credibility as a civil liberties lawyer into serious question.

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The Cuban Five support campaign stressed the fact that they had been refused a change of venue, and I believed that the Campaign was right to do so. Miami is not a neutral environment for pro-Castro Cubans. So the jury pool was tainted.

But that's not really a substantive point.

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The Cuban Five Committee argues that it is not espionage for the group to place an agent undercover at the Boca Chica Naval Trainign base was not espionage, because no "classified" material was discovered in the agent's possession.

But the law doesn't require that a spy have classified information to be guilty. The mere surreptitious sending of military information to a hostile foreign state is an offence in many countries. Canada's definition of "treason" comes close to this, too.

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Anyone who is really concerned about civil liberties can see that the prosecution of all five of the Cubans was politically motivated, as part of the plan to protect Posada Carriles and his terrorist henchmen at all costs.

Even the three judge appeal panel of the very conservative Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit in Atlanta could see that the Five didn’t get a fair trial. In the course of reversing their convictions, the judges referred to Posada Carriles as a terrorist. The Department of Justice then made an unusual request to have the appeal re-heard by all 12 judges of the 11th Circuit. The request was granted, and a re-hearing was held last February before all 12 judges en banc. In August they reversed the three-judge panel’s decision.

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Your failure to condemn unequivocally the treatment of the Cuban Five puts your credibility as a civil liberties lawyer into serious question.

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What a joke. If I don't toe the line of the Communist Party of Cuba, I am thrown into the Stalinist outer darkness.

Children may believe what you have written, ie. that members of the Cuban Security Police, in Florida, and working undercover on a US military base, were there to provide intelligence to the FBI, and were not working for the Cuban government.

Yet, when there was an improper flight from that base over Havana, one of the five DID contact the Cuban government, to report it.

I don't think he's guilty of murder, and I don't think they got a fair trial, as is clear from the linked Law Union statement. They should be sent home.

But claiming they were helping the FBI is just silly. I note that the official media in Cuba are running dozens of articles in support of these "heroes". And here on babble, all the die-hard pro-Cuban posters are on the case.

Forgive me, but it's not because they were helping the FBI.

Let's try a realistic analysis: The Five work for Cuban State Security. They were trying to protect Cuba from attack. They are morally right to do so. It is wrong for the US to harass Cuba, conduct illegal overflights, conduct sabotage, etc. etc. The five have a good moral case.

Here's the kind of thing they publish about them in Granma:

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¨Ustedes son el ejemplo más hermoso de la lucha contra el terrorismo. Impidieron muchos daños humanos que los verdaderos terroristas que protege el Imperio hubieran hecho contra vuestra amada Patria y vuestro amado pueblo¨.

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LETTER TO THE FOVE HEROES

"You are the most beautiful example of the struggle against terrorism. You prevented much human damage which the real terrorists who protect the Empire would have done to our beloved Fatherland and your beloved people."

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Originally posted by jeff house:
Why not just say that rather than all this nonsense about them helping the FBI?

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Not even children would believe your story that the Cuban Five were engaged in espionage for Cuba, while at the same time making their presence and activities known to the FBI and supplying it with evidence against gusano terrorists.

You're so blinded by your vicious anti-communism that you can't even see that these men were heroes to their country. You can't even bring yourself to join with the international campaign to free these political prisoners, preferring to sit on the sidelines and make up excuses for their judicial railroading. You are a hypocrite.

You claim to have read the trial transcripts. Did you read all 14,000 pages? Did you examine all 800 documents placed in evidence? You are not fooling anybody.

[ 15 November 2006: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

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Originally posted by jeff house:

Children may believe what you have written, ie. that members of the Cuban Security Police, in Florida, and working undercover on a US military base, were there to provide intelligence to the FBI, and were not working for the Cuban government.

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What's the evidence for this, Jeff ?. A cursory web search turned this up:

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What danger did the Cuban Five Pose ?

One worked as a cleaner at a military base at the time. As William Blum wrote in September 2002, "The F.B.I. admitted that they had not penetrated any military bases and the activities at the bases were "never compromised" …The Pentagon added that "there are no indications that they had access to classified information or access to sensitive areas." …in short, the government was admitting that nothing that could be termed "espionage" had been committed"

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Imagine that, one of them had to actually work to support himself in the corporate welfare state where not accepting low wage menial labour is considered a sin. It's stiff competition for Walmart jobs by what I've read. He should have demanded the dole and freed-up some time for sneaking around the military base with mini- camera and secret agent gear, which the feds can produce as evidence if necessary, of course. A day planner detailing their intentions, anything?.

I doubt very much they were planning a reverse Bay of Pigs or photographing U2's and faxing them off to Moscow or anything, Jeff. In your opinion, what do you think they were doing in Miami, and what do you know about the federal case against them ?. Life sentence and 20 years is a long time.

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Originally posted by Jeff House:
But claiming they were helping the FBI is just silly. I note that the official media in Cuba are running dozens of articles in support of these "heroes". And here on babble, all the die-hard pro-Cuban posters are on the case.

Forgive me, but it's not because they were helping the FBI.

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It sounds like U.S. feds didn't catch any Cuban's spying, Jeff. It almost looks as if the feds were informed ahead of time by the Cuban government about their purpose in Miami and were even tipped off about several extreme right-wing anti-Cuban terrorist groups active in Miami. And so what did the feds do about it ? - they arrested the CUBAN FIVE!

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Originally posted by Jeff House:
But the law doesn't require that a spy have classified information to be guilty. The mere surreptitious sending of military information to a hostile foreign state is an offence in many countries. Canada's definition of "treason" comes close to this, too.

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Does the law say anything about proof of spying, as in physical evidence ?. You know, the Cuban government did produce taped evidence that the dissident "journalists" in Havana were working with known CIA agents in Madrid and Miami.

Is tailing a group of right-wing whackos considered a threat to U.S. national security ?.

It sounds like the Cubans were trying to co-operate with the U.S. feds and asked for co-operation in fighting terrorism in turn. Can you imagine a country claiming to be interested in fighting terrorism, and then when it does receive assistance in doing just that, they reward the good Samaritans by tossing them in gulags and violating their human rights as prisoners. Unbelievable!.

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Given the ongoing refusal of successive U.S. administrations to bring their own terrorists to account, Cuban authorities were forced to take measures to defend themselves, and U.S. and other world citizens, from further attacks, by infiltrating these terrorist groups and informing the U.S. authorities of their activities.

The Five’s actions, all unarmed, were justified by the Doctrine of Necessity, and therefore excusable in law.

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Is there such a thing as doctrine of necessity, Jeff?. We know who the biggest terrorists in the world are, don't we though.

Viva la revolucion!

[ 16 November 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

I spoke to the Cuban Ambassador, too, when we spoke on behalf of the five. He confirmed that the Cuban government agrees that they are members of the State Security Police.

Given that fact, I am sorry to say that I do not think that working on a US military base in any capacity can be considered an innocent activity.

So, I don't accept they were murderers, and I don't think they got a fair trial.

Interestingly, Alberto Gonzales' famous "torture memo" claims that the "doctrine of necessity" would excuse torturers, and for the same reason.

"They had to do it to save the state".

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The March 2003 report goes on to say that torture can be justified by necessity. This 'Doctrine of Necessity' would have us believe that any horror performed against another human being is justified because it supposedly ensures that no more terror attacks will happen. The rationale reaches back to the disgraced and discredited Nuremberg Defense, once put forth by the Nazis, which would pardon dealers of death and agony because they were just following orders. In this case, according to these Bush administration memos, those orders came from a President not bound by law because of the aforementioned Necessity Doctrine.

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Originally posted by jeff house:
I read some transcripts which were provided to me by Leonard Weinstein.

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I am sorry to say that I do not think that working on a US military base in any capacity can be considered an innocent activity.

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Of course, it's possible that the Cason Affair prisoners are more valuable to the US from a propaganda perspective if they remain sitting in Cuban jails.

[ 16 November 2006: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]

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Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
Of course, it's possible that the Cason Affair prisoners are more valuable to the US from a propaganda perspective if they remain sitting in Cuban jails.

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I believe in that case, the Cuban's have offered to produce physical evidence that the "journalists" really were in communication with CIA agents in Madrid and Miami with subversive intentions, a crime of carrying our subversive activities which are on every country's law books by what I can tell.

The journalists, which the Cuban's say there was only one formally-trained and experienced journalist among them, were found with hundreds of thousands of U.S. dollars in their possession. And then a few months ago, Cuban-exile journalists in Florida have admitted to accepting money from the U.S. government to write articles and broadcasting radio interviews amounting to so much propagandizing of Cuba.

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Originally posted by jeff house:
By the way, it is just laughable that anyone would claim that the "Doctrine of Necessity" would be applicable in an espionage case.

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Jeff, the Cuban's say there were 108 terrorist attacks launched against them from right-wing anti-Cuban groups based in Miami. It seems the FGBI not only don't know, or at least they have refused to reveal the true identities of the real 9-11 hijackers, they're doing a very bad job of preventing their country from being used as a base for terrorist attacks against Cuba.

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Jeff, the Cuban's say there were 108 terrorist attacks launched against them from right-wing anti-Cuban groups based in Miami. It seems the FGBI not only don't know, or at least they have refused to reveal the true identities of the real 9-11 hijackers, they're doing a very bad job of preventing their country from being used as a base for terrorist attacks against Cuba.

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I have no doubt that the FBI is complicit in the attacks on Cuba. US policy is basically to harass Cuba.

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Join us in our ongoing monthly protest actions to demand freedom for the 5 Cuban Heroes illegally held in U.S. prisons and to show solidarity with the families of the 5 anti-terrorist Cubans!

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My questions are these:

Why are the Cuban Five 'Heroes,' inasmuch that they were illegally in the U.S. working as spies for the Cuban government?

Would protest organizers similarly demand freedom for U.S. agents working illegally in Cuba as spies if the shoe was on the other foot?

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Originally posted by jeff house:

I have no doubt that the FBI is complicit in the attacks on Cuba. US policy is basically to harass Cuba.

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So in this case, "harassing" means aiding and abetting known murderers and thugs.

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But that doesn't mean Cuban State Security agents won't have to worry about US domestic law if they infiltrate the US "out of necessity".

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But the Cuban government apparently was concerned about letting the U.S. know about the 14 Cuban "spies." Because apparently the U.S. feds found out from Havana in a memorandum sent July of 1998 that there were 14 Cuban's in Miami and doing the FBI's job for them. The feds were all over this particular tip from Havana and nailed the Cubans two months later in September 1998.

It wouldn't be the first time the FBI fumbled a tip-off from Havana. After 1959, Fidel informed the U.S. that Santos Trafficante and several of his mafia capos were headed for Miami on way-way tickets from Havana. And Fidel handed them details about an infamous mobster pow wow in the Appalachians. I think it was around the time that the FBI refused to even acknowledge the existence of organized crime in their own country. An associate of Trafficante's went on to bigger and better things, like perpetrating hundred million dollar health care fraud in a private Miami cancer hospital in the 1980's. Jeb Bush was embroiled in the affair at some point. Apparently cancer patients weren't receiving pain and other medications. Harassing ?. Some of these Cuban exiles welcomed with open arms by the Americanos were the scum of the earth according to some reports. Health care fraud in the U.S. today is estimated to be worth over $30 billion dollars a year, and there are U.S.-based firms/jackals lobbying our weak and ineffective governments to toss them shares of Canada's health care common good. God help us.

The "journalist" dissidents were found guilty of carrying out subversive activities against the Cuban government. That's illegal in any country. And the Cuban's have offered to share the evidence in the interests of justice.

The Cuban Five "caught spying" were not actually spying as the lack of FBI evidence against them demonstrates. We can be sure the Americanos don't care to submit their flimsy evidence to international scrutiny and preferring to violate the prisoners basic human rights over eight years to date. The Cuban Five were in Miami to counteract U.S.-based terrorism for which the evidence is overwhelming. That much is obvious, and this is a gross miscarriage of justice.

Jeff, how many "Abu Ghraibs" and "Camp X-Rays" do you think exist right there in the USA if they openly flout basic human rights like this for all the world to see ?. The Yanks already admit to owning the largest gulag population in the world, so what is it they won't allow us to know ?.

[ 16 November 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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The "journalist" dissidents were found guilty of carrying out subversive activities against the Cuban government. That's illegal in any country.

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Fidel, are you "carrying out subversive activites" against the Harper government?

If not, why not?

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Originally posted by John K:

Fidel, are you "carrying out subversive activites" against the Harper government?

If not, why not?

If so, why aren't you in jail?

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Well that's easy. It's because I'm not receiving money from a foreign government to overthrow the feds in Ottawa, fcs. There are laws on every country's books against doing just that.

I'm not passing information back to the CIA which is likely going to be used by a group of right-wing whackos in Miami to attack Canada's infrastructure and put the lives of Canadians and foreign tourists at risk. Tourism is important to the Cuban economy, not to mention the Cuban government is responsible for providing security for foreign nationals vacationing in Cuba as well as for Cuban citizens themselves. The U.S. shadow government has an established history of overthrowing democratically-elected governments around the world, including unprovoked attacks against the Cuban government and fomenting right-wing terrorism in Florida.

The anti-Cuban terrorist groups are far more organized and well-funded than Canada's FLQ ever were. Pierre Trudeau's muscle back then, Jean Chretien, convinced PET that they should declare war measures and round up hundreds of socialists, social workers and union leaders a la Franco and Hitler. It was all a diversion away from accusations of corruption in the Liberal party with ties to organized crime.

In fact, Canada was pretty much immune to acts of terrorism until our weak and ineffective proxy government known as the Liberal party volunteered Canadian soldiers to prop up American imperialism in Afghanistan.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
And perhaps the Yanks could offer to abandon Camp X-Ray and the other one with no name at Gitmo's super-secretive facilities. I don't believe the Yanks would bargain in good faith. They've offered to execute self-exiled American nationals living in China decades after the Manhatten project was mothballed. The Cubans should have known better than to try and work with a nation that exports terrorism.

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It is telling that the degree of distrust between Havana and Washington is greater than the amount during the Cold War between Washington and Moscow. Of course, the balance of power was such that the two had to put aside their mistrust and negotiate to some degree.

I expect if the US ever did negotiate with Cuba on some sort of prisoner exchange there'd be hell to pay from the Miami extremists.

[ 17 November 2006: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]

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Well that's easy. It's because I'm not receiving money from a foreign government to overthrow the feds in Ottawa, fcs. There are laws on every country's books against doing just that.

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Source? Please cite the Canadian law that would make it a criminal offense for you - as a private citizen - to receive money from a foreign government to "overthrow" the current Conservative government in Ottawa using non-violent means.

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Canada's political prisoners are not well known.

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Originally posted by John K:
Oh and Fidel, how many of Cuba's political prisoners were in fact proven - beyond a reasonable doubt - to have received money from foreign governments?

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These posters NEVER accept a criticism of Cuba.

So, we can conclude that they are intellectually rigid ideologues into denial of reality.

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Originally posted by John K:
Oh and Fidel, how many of Cuba's political prisoners were in fact proven - beyond a reasonable doubt - to have received money from foreign governments?

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[ 17 November 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

No, I tend to think that right-wing whackos planning terrorist acts against Cuba was the most logical and plausible motive for them being in Florida. Their intentions were made known to the feds two months before the FBI swooped down on the secret agents from Havana.

The contras were terrorists and hired mercenaries. Gulbeddin Hekmatyar and the Taliban are established murderers and terrorists. The School of the Americas is an infamous terrorist organization. I don't see anything like those same U.S. taxpayer-funded terrorist programs radiating from Havana to "harass" or violate anyone's basic human right to exist outside of Cuba.

And I am ashamed of our weak and ineffective government in Ottawa for not speaking out against these criminal acts originating from and instigated by our largest trading partner in crime. Canada isn't a sovereign country with real leadership. Not really.

"There are no political prisoners in Haiti." -- former Pee-M and colonial administrator, P.M.

Ya, shove off, Paul. And get a spine transplant while you're at it.

[ 17 November 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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John, don't ask that question...

These posters NEVER accept a criticism of Cuba.

So, we can conclude that they are intellectually rigid ideologues into denial of reality.

They'll eventually fall off the party wagon, but for now, they're hopeless.

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Jeff, granted some of those on the non-democratic left will not be convinced. To avoid answering my questions they use cheap debater's tricks like stating allegations as fact, tossing out red herrings, and - if all else fails - changing the subject.

My concern is for those on the democratic left who - for reasons I've never understood - similarly have a blind spot when it comes to Cuba, or at least choose to remain silent about the gross human rights and civil liberties violations that take place there. Violations they would never tolerate any place else.

It's pretty easy on a progressive board to condemn human rights violations in the USA, Canada, Haiti or Iraq. I've done plenty of it myself and will continue doing so because human rights are universal and - like you said - nobody gets a pass.

John, the dissident "journalists" are not there in Cuba to foil plans for left wing ultra-violence to be carried out against Americans or international tourists in Miami. Treason, plotting, scheming and collaborating with agents of a foreign government to overthrow your own is considered illegal in every country in the world. Look it up.

Following the Money Philip Agee

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Whatever the amounts of money reaching Cuba may have been, everyone in Cuba working in the various dissident projects knows of U.S. government sponsorship and funding and the purpose: regime change. Far from being "independent" journalists, "idealistic" human rights activists, "legitimate" advocates for change, or "Marian librarians from River City," every one of the 75 arrested and convicted was knowingly a participant in U.S. government operations to overthrow the government and install a different, U.S.-favored, political, economic and social order. They knew what they were doing was illegal, they got caught, and they are paying the price. Anyone who thinks they are prisoners of conscience, persecuted for their ideas or speech, or victims of repression, simply fails to see them properly as instruments of a U.S. government that has declared revolutionary Cuba its enemy. They were not convicted for ideas but for paid actions on behalf of a foreign power that has waged a 44-year war of varying degrees of intensity against this country.

To think that the dissidents were creating an independent, free civil society is absurd, for they were funded and controlled by a hostile foreign power and to that degree, which was total, they were not free or independent in the least. The civil society they wished to create was not just your normal, garden-variety civil society of Harley freaks and Boxer breeders, but a political opposition movement fomented openly by the U.S. government. What government in the world would be so self-destructive as to sit by and just watch this happen?

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[ 18 November 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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John, Cuba has far fewer dissidents than a large number of countries on the planet, including the U.S. of A, home to the largest gulag population in the world.

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Unsubstantiated allegation stated as fact.

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John, the dissident "journalists" are not there in Cuba to foil plans for left wing ultra-violence to be carried out against Americans or international tourists in Miami.

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Red herring.

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Treason, plotting, scheming and collaborating with agents of a foreign government to overthrow your own is considered illegal in every country in the world.

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Unsubstantiated allegation stated as fact.

In most democracies - including Canada - treason necessitates the use of force or violence against the state. Not only is the use of any non-violent means to defeat the government of the day a constitutionally protected freedom, so is the use of non-violent means to work toward the breakup of the Canadian state itself (i.e the BQ, the PQ and the Separation Party of Alberta).

I know of no criminal law that would prevent Fidel from plotting, scheming, collaborating or getting funding from the Cuban government to overthrow the Harper government so long as force or violence was not involved.

While the belligerence of the U.S. towards Cuba is often used as an excuse for the lack of civil liberties in Cuba, this is not its root cause.

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Originally posted by John K:
Unsubstantiated allegation stated as fact.

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FACT:

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The BJS statistics indicate that 738 per 100,000 of the population were incarcerated last year, up from 725 per 100,000 the year before. According to the report, as of midyear 2005, one in every 136 US residents were imprisoned. If this ratio excluded children from the total population, the percentage of those incarcerated would likely be closer to one in every hundred residents.

The US incarcerates by far the largest proportion of its population of any country in history, accounting for wholly a quarter of the world's prisoners in its corrections system. The US also has the most actions criminalized of any country, and routinely doles out mandatory sentences lasting decades. On any given day in America, more than seven million of its residents are under some form of supervision of the corrections systems. And you can look it up for yourself

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Red herring.

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You can't stay on topic for lack of your ability to make a real point in this thread, so why should we play your game ?. John, the U.S. warehouses millions of its poorest citizens because it's economy and society can't find anything else for them to do.

And the largest prison population in Cuba is at Guantanamo Bay's torture gulags. The presence of the U.S. on the island isn't even legal, John, they're an agressive fascist corporate welfare state which refuses to tolerate popular leaders running the show anywhere in Latin America. The U.S. is a net exporter of terrorism.

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Unsubstantiated allegation stated as fact.

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Not at all, and I've invited you to prove me wrong, too. You're lazy, John. You don't have the cajones to post anything but your one-sided opinion and parroting whatever it is you're scrounging up on those USian web sites and are too timid to nail up here for our viewing pleasure.

You should visit Cuba and spend some cash, see Varadero, the longest stretch of white coral sand beach in the world which used to be the exclusive property of the Dupont family and their miserable attack dogs, John. It's open for all the world to see, except American citizens who've had that personal freedom denied by an oppressive right-wing shadow government.

Here's what you may or may not have been looking for, depending on your political and ideological point of view.

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Socialist Eugene V. Debs was sentenced to 10 years in prison under this law. U.S. citizens including members of the Industrial Workers of the World union were also imprisoned during World War I for their anti-war dissent under the provisions of the Sedition Act. Anti-war protestors were arrested by the hundreds as speaking out against the draft and the war was illegal under this law.

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Crackdown on Dixie Chicks ... Were the Chicks agents of a foreign government ?.

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Al-Marri was given the "Padilla Treatment" -- kept in solitary confinement, denied all contact with the outside world, including even his own attorneys, not charged with any crimes, and given no opportunity to prove his innocence.

That's exactly what Congress legitimized last month in the Torture Bill

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Silencing dissent in the USSA Jeez, she was only criticizing Bush and not in the pay of a hostile foreign government.

Sedition laws in several western nations

[ 18 November 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

In terms of Guantanamo Bay, I've long maintained that it and any other US detention facilities should be immediately shut down, and those imprisoned there either tried in regular courts or released.

[ 18 November 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by John K:
In most democracies - including Canada - treason necessitates the use of force or violence against the state. Not only is the use of any non-violent means to defeat the government of the day a constitutionally protected freedom, so is the use of non-violent means to work toward the breakup of the Canadian state itself (i.e the BQ, the PQ and the Separation Party of Alberta).

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First of all, the Cuban Five were not charged with treason, so your statement, even if it were true, is irrelevant.

Pack the court room for the PENTAGON FIVE

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On September 9th, 2006 four Iraq veterans and an anarchist activist were arrested whille taking a tour of the Pentagon for allegedly passing out fliers on depleted uranium. The five are being charged with "Posting of Materials" and "Disobeying a Lawful Order" and could be facing a $6,000 fine and six months in federal prison. PACK THE COURTROOM in solidarity with the Pentagon 5, show the government that we are outraged at the complete erosion of our civil liberties

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Originally posted by John K:
The root cause is Cuban law as set out in its constitution.

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That gives me a great idea! There are many parts of the Canadian constitution I don't like. Maybe I could apply for a grant from Osama bin Laden to help me agitate for constitutional change?

Canadian citizens CANNOT be detained using security certificates.

Below is an excerpt from a Canadian Border Services Fact Sheet:

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Security Certificates do not apply to Canadian citizens:

* The provisions of the IRPA do not apply to Canadian citizens or to persons who are registered Indians pursuant to the Indian Act;
* Certificates only apply to permanent residents or foreign nationals who are inadmissible to Canada on grounds of security such as espionage, subversion or terrorism, violating human or international rights, serious criminality or organized criminality.

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I am strongly opposed to security certificates as they deny due process. I am also opposed to Bill C-36, the 1970 imposition of the War Measures Act, the internment of Japanese Canadians during WWII, and I'm sure a bunch of other black marks on Canada's human rights record that I haven't listed.

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Originally posted by John K:
What I don't get is why the pro-Castro crowd keeps dredging up unjust laws elsewhere as an excuse for the denial of human rights in Cuba? Two wrongs most assuredly do not make a right.

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What do you think about Philip Agee's commentary on the dissident "journalists", John ? Agee is a former CIA insider specializing in overthrow of foreign governments, democratically-elected ones and otherwise. I think Agee recognizes what's been happening in Cuba.

But we seem to be following you into the rhubarb again. I think if you want to change the subject matter from U.S.-based terrorism against Cuba to human rights in Cuba, you should start a new thread.

[ 18 November 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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What do you think about Philip Agee's commentary on the dissident "journalists", John ? Agee is a former CIA insider specializing in overthrow of foreign governments, democratically-elected ones and otherwise. I think Agee recognizes what's been happening in Cuba.

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Since Agee has been living in Cuba since the late 1980s and is allowed to carve out a nice living for himself through his Havana-based travel agency - cubalinda.com - I'm guessing he's hardly in a position to be overly critical in his commentary. Especially when writing for Cuban state-owned media.

My take on the commentary. Agee doesn't think the dissidents were much of a security threat to the Cuban state. By the time of their arrests, they had been heavily infiltrated by Cuban state security. But they were made an example of to send a message to other would be dissidents. As Agee points out, if the idea was to send a message to the Bush Administration, they could have instead expelled James Cason.

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Originally posted by John K:
What I don't get is why the pro-Castro crowd keeps dredging up unjust laws elsewhere as an excuse for the denial of human rights in Cuba? Two wrongs most assuredly do not make a right.

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Originally posted by John K:
Since Agee has been living in Cuba since the late 1980s and is allowed to carve out a nice living for himself ...

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Imagine that, Canadians and conscionable CIA defectors are allowed to do business in Cuba but not U.S. citizens. I wonder why U.S. citizens aren't barred from travel to Iraq, Afghanistan or a number of other countries where human rights are nil next to zero. Ah! I see what you mean, I think ?.

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My take on the commentary. Agee doesn't think the dissidents were much of a security threat to the Cuban state.

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Well no, the USIS/AID/CIA plan wasn't likely to bring down the Cuban government in the short term, and they knew the dissent had no momentum. Not after ten presidents and countless acts of terrorism perpetrated against Cuba failed to do just that. No, the goal this time was simply to provoke a reaction from the Cuban government which would cause pro-Cuban groups within the U.S. to retract their support, as well as EU nations, for lifting the embargo against Cuba. It did work in alienating the Europeans btw. Isolating Cuba has been the CIA's first and foremost agenda with Cuba, and Agee's implying that in so many words.

Agee describes a film clip from the trial of Oswaldo Alfonso Valdes, head of the Liberal Party of Cuba, in which Alfonso describes a meeting he had with USAID officials. In the clip, they discussed how to improve the way that his party would obtain "resources" in order to better conceal the U.S. government as the source.

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Agee: In the clip Alfonso also acknowledged receiving money and material resources from the U.S. government via organizations based in Miami.

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Hmm, some independent "journalists" they turned out to be. It doesn't even sound like their publishers are in Cuba. They're a scabby outfit to be offshoring the news like that if you ask me. And to think the Dems made mince meat of Tom Delay for irregular Republican Party funding within the U.S. proper. What is this world coming to when Havana finally puts its foot down to unabashed CIA and Spanish Conservative Party financial and other support for "Project Varela."

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By the time of their arrests, they had been heavily infiltrated by Cuban state security. But they were made an example of to send a message to other would be dissidents. As Agee points out, if the idea was to send a message to the Bush Administration, they could have instead expelled James Cason.

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It sounds to me like Cason is considered a fat, under-achieving career foreign service officer who was told to stir up trouble in Havana to earn his official hawk badge of dishonour and treachery. Cason also has a long history of cooperating with the Defense Intelligence Agency in would-be bastions of freedom like Honduras and El Salvador.

Cason was allowed free rein all over Havana in organizing anti-Castro activities, setting up anti-Cuban poster displays, and creating dissident groups of the handful of Cubans and using U.S. taxpayers money to do it. But Cason went too far. Cason effectively betrayed the Cubans by complicating them in seditious activities, and now he's left with his fat chin hanging out and no bone to bring to his masters in Warshington. I'd have given anything to have seen Cason's and the hired "journalists" reactions to the Cuban billboards spread-out across the street from the Interests Section depicting Abu Ghraib's torture victims. Priceless I'd bet.

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Sorry Fidel, none of this speaks well to the state of civil liberties in Cuba or the actions of the Castro regime.

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I'm sorry, but I agree with the Cubans that U.S.-funded sedition should continue to be illegal in their country. And I think that American citizens themselves should be allowed to travel to Cuba of their free choosing and see exactly what it is they've been indoctrinated to hate and fear for the last several decades. And they should know that their own government has far more political prisoners detained at just Gitmo's torture gulags than can be claimed of any other jails in Cuba.

And I think American citizens should know more as to why their government has imprisoned five Cuban nationals whose only goal, realistically, was to stop U.S.-based terrorism being perpetrated against their beloved homeland. And, how about those Cuban Five ?.

[ 19 November 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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As long as you and the rest of the cruise-missile left keep pretending that Cuba is unique in using criminal laws to protect itself against foreign-funded espionage and subversion, we're going to keep pointing out to you that every other country does it as well.

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Some of us believe in being consistent in opposing unjust laws infringing on basic civil liberties. If you don't, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

My views on international relations - as evidenced by years of postings on babble - are diametrically opposed to those of Christopher Hitchens and the rest of the "cruise missile left."

My views on Cuba are also consistent with those of Noam Chomsky and the dozens of other progressives who signed onto the following statement:

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Anti-War, Social Justice and Human Rights Advocates Oppose Repression in Cuba

WE, THE UNDERSIGNED, strongly protest the current wave of repression in Cuba. We condemn the arrests of scores of opponents of the Cuban government for their nonviolent political activities, and the shockingly long prison sentences -- some as high as 28 years -- imposed after unfair trials. According to Amnesty International, the arrestees include journalists, owners of private libraries and members of illegal opposition parties. We condemn as well the trial and execution of three alleged hijackers in a week's time, both for the lack of due process and because we oppose capital punishment on principle.

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You are selective in when to conjure up Noam Chomsky on Cuba. You make no mention of the Nobel laureates and over a hundred British MP's calling for the release of the Cuban Five.

Chomsky on the Cuban Five:

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The thing with the Cuban Five is such a scandal, its hard to talk about it. Cuba was providing the FBI with information about the terrorist actions taking place in the United States, based in the United States--completely criminal. So instead of arresting the terrorists, they arrested the people that provided the information, which is so ridiculous I find it difficult to talk about it. They put them under very hard conditions and it's not recorded. You can't read about it. So one of the reasons it goes on is because nobody knows about it. There were a few brief mentions, but all it said was that these people were informing Cuba that an unarmed plane was going .to fly over Havana. That's about the only story that was reported. The actual facts of the matter are not secret but no one knows. ...

The US has vetoed resolutions calling on all states to observe international law. It vetoed the Security Council resolution affirming the World Court judgment which condemned the US for pronounced international terrorism. No one mentions this, nobody knows it, it's not part of anyone's consciousness. You go into the faculty club or the editorial offices and people will never have heard about it. That's what it means to have extreme power and a very subservient intellectual class. It's out of history, it didn't happen.

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Cuba is a nation placed under extreme duress over the last 44 years for the sake of extremist views by a right-wing ideologue government in Warshington, John. You can't say the same about Canada. But you can say the same about dozens of Uncle Sam's democratic capitalist third world allies. And the differences in human rights in Cuba and Uncle Sam's capitalist third world friendlies are as plain as day.

So when will you be breaking into a discussion resembling something close to Noam's thoughts on the Cuban Five, John K Chomsky ?.

[ 19 November 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

More recently, in response to a question at a public meeting, he said this:

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I actually agree with you that there should be more freedoms in Cuba, and in fact I talked about it on Havana radio. I talked about it on Havana national television in an open audience, something that I can't do about in the United States. Your point is correct, there should be more freedoms in Cuba, and people in the United States should be concerned about the state of human rights, let's say in Latin America.

In particular, if they want to be concerned, a good place to start would be Amnesty International Human Rights Report which came out, the latest one. It runs through the record of human rights violations in Latin America. And there are plenty of them, they include Cuba. The worse human rights violations in Cuba that they bring up happen to be in Guantanamo. There are also human rights violations else where in Cuba, however if you compare the record in Cuba with the record elsewhere in the hemisphere, you'll find that Cuba is one of the least of the violators of fundamental human rights in the hemisphere. Now on the rest of the hemisphere it's you and me who are responsible for those human rights violations. In Cuba, it's somebody else. We are partly responsible there too because of the terrorism and embargo for 45 years, but yes, it's up to Cubans to deal with their human rights violations. It's up to us to deal with our human rights violations, which in Latin America, is far worse than Cuba, right through the hemisphere, take a look at it. Rights of women, rights to food, rights to free speech, the ability to organize unions, anything, just run through it. That's not me, that's Amnesty International. Take a look at Human Rights Watch, it's the same results.

Now if people here want to be concerned about human rights, as they should, the place to start, always, is with your own activities, no matter where you are. You start with your own activities. That's what you are responsible for. Interested in paying attention to others? That's fine, much lower priority, obviously. But then do it honestly. Pick the leading human rights violators and go after them. The minor human rights violators are low in priority. And the ones that are carrying out human rights violation while under our jackboot, that's a different category all together.

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And the ones that are carrying out human rights violation while under our jackboot, that's a different category all together.

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However, while it may be a different category, the category has content.

Of course we should be focussing on violations of human rights in Canada, and in the United States, because that is our universe of influence.

That is why we should be concerned when the Cuban Five get an unfair trial in the US. That is why we should be concerned when one of the Cuban Five is convicted of the manifestly unjust charge of conspiracy to commit murder, when he did nothing of the sort.

But that is not an argument for pretending that things are good in Cuba, that trials are fair there, or that failing to have elections is actually "democratic".

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Originally posted by John K:

It's pretty easy on a progressive board to condemn human rights violations in the USA, Canada, Haiti or Iraq. I've done plenty of it myself and will continue doing so because human rights are universal and - like you said - nobody gets a pass.

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I've never observed John K condemning any of Uncle Sam's gross human rights violations around the world. You're certainly not doing any of that in this thread, John K. Unlike Noam Chomsky, you seem to be focused on derailing this thread to focus on another incident in a completely different country and one in which you're waging a one-sided argument. That's not very Chomsky of you, John. I get the feeling most of John's off topic rhetoric on Cuba is coming from right-wing web sites in the U.S. to shore up a weak argument on what he doesn't understand about Cuba's and the U.S. shadow government's special relationship since 1959.

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That’s an amazing case! Cuba approached the United States with an offer to cooperate in combating terrorism and, in fact, the FBI sent people to Cuba to get information from the Cubans about it. The next thing was that Cubans who had infiltrated the terrorist groups in the United States were arrested. That is utterly shocking! Do you think it’s reported? Nobody knows about it. I mean, here are Cubans who are infiltrating illegal, terrorist organisations in the United States, which are violating US law and the infiltrators are arrested, not the terrorists. It’s astonishing. The US has refused intelligence cooperation with Cuba on terrorism because it would lead directly back to terrorist groups based in the United States.....

There was quite a good article on it by William Blum in Counterpunch.

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Originally posted by jeff house:

However, while it may be a different category, the category has content.

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Thread topic, Jeff.

[ 19 November 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Many dissidents (and non-dissidents) in Cuba look to the United States, some because they actually favor an unbridled U.S.-style capitalist system, others because they sincerely believe that the U.S. is interested in promoting genuine political and social democracy in Cuba. The latter are terribly mistaken, because Washington's interest is in reconstructing a society of private wealth and privilege and in promoting a conservative, and probably repressive, pro-U.S. government in Havana.

But this is a political problem that in no way justifies repression. Rightwing politics and support for the U.S. in Cuba cannot be countered by censorship and imprisonment. Neither the Cuban government nor any other government has the right to stifle or obstruct the free expression of opinions, no matter how repellent or misguided we think they might be. Instead, progressives should try to influence Cubans by simultaneously protesting the Castro government's repression and U.S. interventionism, and exposing Washington's reactionary agenda for their country.

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See that? SIMULTANEOUSLY protesting Cuban government REPRESSION AND WASHINGTON'S REACTIONARY AGENDA FOR CUBA.

Selected thoughts by leftist intellectuals. Come one come all.

[ 19 November 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by jeff house:

Chomsky qualifies as doing this. People who don't, people who have never said a word about
Cuban repression, like Spector, Fidel, and others, shouldn't be claiming Chomsky as their champion.

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You yourself have reminded me on several occasions to butt out of your thread discussions,

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No, I haven't. I believe once I was irritated that, after I brought up the case of a wrongful prosecution in Libya, you changed the subject to Canada.

In this thread, I posted ONE comment. It supported the Cuban Five, on both procedural and substantive grounds, though I do not believe they are all equally guiltless.

At that point, I was specifically asked what I meant. So I responded. Then, someone claimed that I couldn't be a human rights lawyer since I didn't accept the absolute innocence position on the Cuban five.

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Originally posted by jeff house:

No, I haven't. I believe once I was irritated that, after I brought up the case of a wrongful prosecution in Libya, you changed the subject to Canada.

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And there exists a theme common to both countries: tainted blood scandals.

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In this thread, I posted ONE comment. It supported the Cuban Five, on both procedural and substantive grounds, though I do not believe they are all equally guiltless.

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You claimed they were guiltless of murder. It's obvious that charge has no merit.

You did insinuate the Cuban Five were there to steal Pentagon secrets. Outrageous!

But you make little of the probability that their business in Miami is to prevent terrorists from murdering their countrymen, an angle of defence in this case which does have merit. In fact, the Yanks are fomenting terrorism against Cuba. You refer to it as "harassing", but we call it terrorism and conspiring to commit murder, serious crimes in any country that matters.

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At that point, I was specifically asked what I meant. So I responded. Then, someone claimed that I couldn't be a human rights lawyer since I didn't accept the absolute innocence position on the Cuban five.

If you guys don't want my opinion, don't ask me for it.

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If I were one of the five, I think I would be pulling for Weinglass ?.

Seriously Jeff, your solidarity seems to be waning in this thread. We do appreciate your comments, and I mean that. You're a scrapper and as good a lefty as any of us here.

Viva la revolucion!

[ 19 November 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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I've never observed John K condemning any of Uncle Sam's gross human rights violations around the world.

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And on that you would be dead wrong. I joined babble 4 years now and during that time have made 963 posts.

If you care to check the record you will find that I consistently opposed the US-led war in Iraq before, during and after. I've been consistently critical of the Bush Administration and its neo-Con agenda at home and abroad.

I recall in a previous thread saying that the Cuban Five received prison sentences disproportionate to the crimes they are alleged to have committed. In this thread, I said their actions warranted expulsion not imprisonment.

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I never claimed Chomsky as my champion. I think he's a hypocrite.

I was educating John K about what Chomsky has to say, since he seems to think Chomsky agrees with him. He doesn't. John K is even more out to lunch than Chomsky.

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M Spector, you posted the link to a Edward Herman article that contains a spirited defense of Noam Chomsky against those like Hitchens who Herman appropriately dubs cruise missile leftists.

I think that if the conservative Republican Party Inc. is justified at all in creating massive Homeland Security bureaucracy and rolling back even half of the civil rights they have on orders from the shadow government, then surely we can understand the Cuban's invoking the Doctrine of Necessity in dealing with the murders of more the 3400 Cuban and foreign nationals as a result of U.S.-based terrorism over the years. It's the terrorism. Come on John we've gotta get on with the film show.

[ 19 November 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Thus the issue of necessity doesn't arise.

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I'm no lawyer, but this analysis(pdf) of the trial mentions acting out of necessity at least a half dozen times.

I agree, M.Spector, the Cuban's have committed no crime as far as I'm concerned. Is Weinglass attempting to have the charges reduced to something managable and time served(8 yrs of their lives stolen to date), or is he working on having the charges dropped altogether ?.

Ahmet(Midnight Express): Billy, if you walk to the left, there will be trouble. That way is communism. Good Turks always walk to the right. You're a bad machine, Billy. The factory knows.

[ 19 November 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Question: Can you please explain where the appeals stand at this point, giving us an update since the Aug. 9 decision that denied the Cuban Five a new trial?

Weinglass: On Aug. 9, 2006, we received the opinion of the en banc court in Atlanta. By a vote of 10 to 2, that court affirmed the trial court judge who denied venue change. There was a 53-page strong dissent by the two judges who are part of the three-judge panel that originally ruled in our favor on venue.

But the case was remanded back to our original panel—which now consists of two judges — with the direction that the panel consider the remaining nine issues that we originally argued in our appeal. The third judge on the panel retired.

We then heard on Oct. 17 from that panel of two judges. They wanted additional supplemental briefs filed by both sides, with our brief being due first on Nov. 20. We just filed on the eve of the 20th, and the government has until Dec. 17 to respond.

There are three briefs which we filed, addressing all nine issues, but we highlighted four of the nine issues. Those four issues are:

That count three, or conspiracy to commit murder, was not proven and should be dismissed. Secondly, the conspiracy to commit espionage was not proven and in any event, the life sentences that were meted out on the basis of that conviction were excessive and outside the range on which the judge could sentence the three to life.

Thirdly we argued that the prosecutors’ procedure during the trial violated prosecutorial norms, was prosecutorial misconduct, and particularly true on their final argument to the jury. The prosecutors pleaded with the jury to find the five guilty because, to use their words, “They came to the United States to destroy the United States.” That was mentioned not just once, but three times. That would reverse, if the court so found, both conspiracy charges, conspiracy to commit espionage and conspiracy to commit murder.

Lastly and forthly, we argued at length the way the trial judge handled the CIPA issues —Classified Information Procedures Act. In this case there were no classified documents. But what happened is the government classified each and every one of the defendants’ own documents top secret and then argued that because of that, the provisions of the CIPA applied. We were denied access to some of our own documents.

We argued those four issues in the new supplemental briefs. Those issues again are: first, conspiracy to commit murder should be discharged; second, the conspiracy to commit espionage should be reversed for insufficiency of evidence; third, the sentencing on the espionage charges were grossly out of line with existing law; and forthly, the prosecution committed misconduct. Finally the application of the CIPA provisions was wrong in this case.

As things now stand, we are waiting until Dec. 20 when we will receive the answering brief of the government. At that point we will decide whether or not to ask for the opportunity to file a reply brief and we will do that if it is necessary.

We also suggested to the panel that we are willing to participate in the re-argument of any or all of the nine issues if the court so wished.

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It is nearly 10 years since Olga Salanueva and Adriana Perez last saw their husbands. René González and Gerardo Hernández are in jail in Marianna, Florida, and Victorville, California, members of the so-called Miami Five, all serving sentences stretching to double life for "conspiracy to act as a non-registered foreign agent".

Salanueva and Perez are in Britain this month to talk to members of the government and to anyone else who will listen about a story that is a cause célèbre throughout Latin America but is virtually unknown in the United States....

In 1998, the five were arrested and effectively accused of espionage. The US government argued that they were acting as foreign agents and should be treated as spies. The five argued that they had been trying to prevent terrorist attacks. A trial was held in Miami in 2001, despite legal objections that they would be unable to get a fair hearing there because anti-Castro sentiment was so rife. The five, González, Hernández, Antonio Guerrero, Ramón Labañino and Fernando González, were convicted and sentenced to terms varying from 15 years (René González) to double life plus 15 years (Hernández).

With the help of a legal team headed by the veteran American civil rights lawyer Leonard Weinglass, they appealed and, remarkably, in 2005 won the right to a retrial outside Florida. But the prosecution appealed, the retrial was stalled and the case is now due to go to the supreme court in December.

In the meantime, the two women have never been allowed into the US to see their husbands. As Perez's husband is serving a double life sentence, she will never be allowed to see him alive again.

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