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Author Topic: How would you live if you had only a year to live?
Zatamon
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posted 19 May 2003 09:07 PM      Profile for Zatamon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How would you live if you had absolutely nothing to lose? If you knew for a fact that you would die in a year? Healthy till then and then it is over?

What would be important during that year and what would become irrelevant?

One of my own fantasies is the following:

While we have a time-span of an unspecified length ahead of us, we play-act a lot, try to hide our deepest feelings from most of the world. We try to belong, to be accepted, not to stand out too much. We are resigned to the belief that the obvious solutions are all impractical and all we can ever hope for is tiny incremental improvements that never challenge the basic assumptions.

And since most of us live like that, most of the time, nothing really ever changes. In detail – yes, in essence – no.

If I had only a year to live, I would throw caution to the wind and live without worry and fear. I would speak my mind all the time, I would let everyone know exactly how I feel, what I think makes sense, what I think is stupid and cowardly, hypocritical and self-defeating, I would not be intimidated into silence.

Not because I would change anything or anyone, I am a lot more realistic than believing in miracles. But because it is such a pleasure to stand up for what I believe in, to call things by their proper names, to indulge in maximum sanity.

I was born in an age that may prove to be the twilight of humanity. Even if there is a new dawn somewhere ahead of us, and somehow mankind overcomes its self-destructive obsessions, I will be long gone before that happens.

So, if I had only one year, I would want to live it as if I lived in that far-away, hypothetical utopia that I will never see. Not being religious, I have to believe in the ‘here and now’, and I won’t be denied a taste of real freedom and real sanity.

And, since I made this decision many years ago, ever since then I have been living as if I had only one year left. It works for me and this make-belief freedom is the most glorious experience I have ever had.

So, lets entertain each other with our fantasies of how we would live if we had only one year left.

[ 20 May 2003: Message edited by: Francis Mont ]


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Dr. Mr. Ben
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posted 19 May 2003 09:16 PM      Profile for Dr. Mr. Ben   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
On credit.
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clersal
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posted 19 May 2003 09:42 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am presuming that although I know I will die in a year I will feel perfectly healthy? (Until I drop dead)
Only way to go is credit. What would I do. Live by the sea, I think. It would be nice to die listening to the waves crashing on a beach.

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Flowers By Irene
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posted 20 May 2003 02:40 AM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mastercard paid with Visa, guaranteed. All else up for grabs.
From: "To ignore the facts, does not change the facts." -- Andy Rooney | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 20 May 2003 12:09 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Indeed, re the Mastercard and the VISA. I'd probably start saying what I thought more often, too.
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Trisha
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posted 20 May 2003 12:39 PM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think most of us would find that not all that much would change in daily living, depending on your health. I know that I would be giving away things that are special to me to people who I think will care about them, buying only what can be used, making extra effort to see people I care about and trying to do at least one thing I've always wanted to and never been able to. I'd probably try to set up and train someone to continue any work I feel is important and pass on information I've collected. I'd also get rid of anything that shouldn't be shared and straighten out my financial records so they could be easily processed.

I wouldn't add up credit too much as the estate and the family can end up responsible for paying these off. The only thing I could justify using credit for is a trip I was unable to go on before.

As far as being more vocal in my feelings, I have always tried to be honest so this probably wouldn't change that much either. I'd be less likely to put myself out on things I really don't believe in because they're important to someone I care about.


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Zatamon
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posted 20 May 2003 12:39 PM      Profile for Zatamon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Doc: I'd probably start saying what I thought more often, too.
Like Senator Bulworth? That movie is a must to anyone interested in sanity. "Obscenity?!!!!!!"

[ 20 May 2003: Message edited by: Francis Mont ]


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audra trower williams
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posted 20 May 2003 02:38 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You bring that up a lot. I think you've got a crush on Warren Beatty
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
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posted 20 May 2003 02:44 PM      Profile for Zatamon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, audra, I have a crush on sanity.
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audra trower williams
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posted 20 May 2003 02:46 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
hot!
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WingNut
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posted 20 May 2003 02:47 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, ya know how you always tend to develop an infatuation on those who are out of reach.


Kidding.

[ 20 May 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


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Rebecca West
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posted 20 May 2003 03:33 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I would spend as much time as possible with the people I love. Because when I leave this world, that's all I'm really going to miss.
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Zatamon
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posted 20 May 2003 06:33 PM      Profile for Zatamon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If I had only a year to live, I would want to make the most of it. Not more, even much more, of the same, but something quite different. I would spend it on something money can not buy. This would be the last chance for me, of this unique and wondrous opportunity we call life, so I would be very careful to spend it on doing what I always longed to do and never could: love my fellow human beings.

And, since the world would not change to indulge my last wish, it would have to be a fantasy – not on “Fantasy Island”, but inside my own head.

And what can beat the ultimate fantasy of living in a world where you can look up, not down; imagine the best possible and not the possible best; admire instead of pity; love instead of fear and hate?

So, I would imagine me a human world, which is just and compassionate; free and loving; tolerant and beautiful. Then I would go out of my way to tell everyone about this world, how it is only up to us, how it is here for the taking and how much happier we all could be.

Of course no one would take it seriously and some would think I was a fool and some would call me a dreamer. But I would go around, with stars in my eyes, telling of this world and, who knows, maybe some would call it a beautiful dream.

Then I would die, knowing that I have done everything I could to live up to my potential. And this is the most I could have hoped for to do with the opportunity I was given.

[ 20 May 2003: Message edited by: Francis Mont ]


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lagatta
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posted 20 May 2003 07:20 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Agree with Rebecca, though, health willing, that would involve travel, because I have many far-flung friends.

Unfortunately, most people who find themselves in such a situation are in ill-health and have to cope with the rest of their lives as best they can. Saying goodbye without making their friends feeling miserable.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
clersal
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posted 20 May 2003 11:29 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Healthy till then and then it is over?
Sorry Francis I didn't see that bit.

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flotsom
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posted 24 May 2003 09:44 PM      Profile for flotsom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Like a regatta of snails.
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skdadl
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posted 24 May 2003 09:55 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think that lagatta and Trisha are being the realists here.

Most people who learn that they have a more or less precise time left to live are not feeling all that well for the rest of it. That's the hard truth.

And most people are still too entangled in the lives they used to lead simply to drop everything, climb on a plane, and escape to a romantic fade-out on a Greek island.

Most of us, when we learn that we are dying, learn also to cut the crap and turn to those next to us. When you are dying, there is nothing left to do but love the ones you're with. And most of the dying get to that understanding much faster than any of the people who fuss over them.


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clersal
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posted 24 May 2003 10:30 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yabbut Francis did mention:
quote:
Healthy till then and then it is over?

This just fantasy anyhow.

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skdadl
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posted 24 May 2003 10:43 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But that doesn't happen to anyone, and I think it is important that young persons, especially, grasp that it does not happen to anyone.

The lucky ones walk into a laundry truck one day, right after they've had lunch with the guy who tells them they're getting the Nobel Prize.

Or they have that unusual kind of stroke or heart attack that puts them in a coma at once, three days max, they never know, lucky lucky.

Or maybe somebody shoots you. Well, unlikely, but not out of the question.

But if you're like most of us, you will be sick when you die, as Woody Allen said. And the sickness itself is instructive. Wisdom comes from facing that, I feel.

I seriously doubt that Francis wanted fantasies of the pure-escape kind that I, eg, often have. Francis, I suspect, wanted what Francis always wants.

But for you, clersal, I will do a fantasy. But let me think first. I have a few different scenarios to sort through.


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clersal
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posted 24 May 2003 11:00 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yabbut I'm not young. Anyhow my fantasy is that I will be working in the garden and a meteorite will do the old squisheroo trick.
I think that people who are ill, very ill, going to die probably ill, can react either way.
Come to terms that they are going to die. Take care of what needs to be taken care of.
The other kind are in denial and stay in denial until the end. The latter is much more painful.

From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trisha
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posted 24 May 2003 11:00 PM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I would become many pounds lighter (this is a fantasy after all) and would meet the most gorgeous billionaire who would whisk me off to a private tropical island and invites all the people I really care about for a year-long party. If I dream, I dream big. lol
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Pogo
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posted 25 May 2003 02:33 AM      Profile for Pogo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Live every day as if it is your last. My main problem is procratinating the personal stuff while I get the material and career stuff in order. My biggest regrets in life are with the people that are not here any more. Also, if I had a year to live I would look up my family history in Scotland, but mostly I would make sure my children were well aquanted with with people I love and respect the most. Specifically, I would like to impress on them the importance of the greater family relationships which is something I have been very shoddy at.
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nonsuch
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posted 25 May 2003 09:53 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Live every day as if it is your last.

I used to think this way, but found it impractical - and i don't think i'd enjoy it. Half or more of life is plans, long-term committments, expectations, hopes, second chances.
Living as if there were no tomorrow isn't a life; it's only a party. Drink up; you'll be outta here before the bill arrives. Make no promises; adopt no pets; start writing no novels; plant no garden; let nobody love you. Pretty bleak.

But maybe i'll sort out and get rid of my accumulated junk, just in case.


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Pogo
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posted 25 May 2003 12:04 PM      Profile for Pogo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Eat and drink: for to morrow we shall die", is for the poets. What I meant with 'live every day as if it was your last' was to ensure the important things get done. As one can see from the rest of my post, I am having trouble doing this.
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nonsuch
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posted 25 May 2003 09:24 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, i understand.
Maybe we need to turn it around: live each day as if it were your first. Some poet said that, too.

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Zatamon
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posted 25 May 2003 09:59 PM      Profile for Zatamon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My hope for the thread was a discussion on what is really, really important in life for different people. The fantasy of having only one (healthy) year left was a device to help us focus on this question.

To illustrate this, I will copy in part of a letter I recently wrote to a much younger friend of mine.

Here it is:

“I was thinking about our discussion regarding choices and prices and what a bitch it is that we can’t have everything we want. A few lucky devils in the world have it their own way, all the time (and I suspect they still pay some price for it), most of us have to pick and choose, and when we pick something, we have to give up something else for it.

I hesitated a lot before venturing a comment on this issue, because we all have to find our own way and our own trade-offs. However, for what it’s worth, I would like to mention the greatest mistake and regret I have identified in my own life. Whether knowing this means anything to you, beyond a curiosity about me, is highly suspect, but here it is anyway.

My greatest regret in life is the mistake of buying into the “American Dream”. What I didn’t know, until my middle forties, was how little possessions mean for happiness. It is nice to have a nice house and nice things to go with it, but the price one has to pay for these things, in sacrificed dreams, is exorbitant.

The jobs we hate, the travel and the worries that go with it, the lack of time we would need to pursue our interests, the people we have to put up with, the house in the crowded city we need, to be able to commute to the job we hate, the pretence of not despising some of our fellow workers and managers, these all take their toll and very little of our life energies is left over for what we really want.

By the time I figured this out for myself, I had wasted so much time and so much energy, that it was actually too late for many of the dreams I used to have and could have reached, had I been smart enough to know what all my true options were and brave enough to be unconventional.

I don’t mean to say I regret the time and energy I spent living up to my responsibilities toward my partner and our family – those had priority over everything else. But, even with this constraint, I could have lived a lot smarter and a lot happier than I did. Now I am trying to make up for lost time, with a vengeance.

Please don’t be offended about this letter, the last thing in my mind is trying to give you advice on how to live your life. I only wanted to tell you one particular perspective, without the slightest hint that it might apply to you in any way. If nothing else, accept it as the musings of an aging ‘hippy’ whose greatest regret in life is not becoming one decades before he aged.”


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lagatta
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posted 25 May 2003 11:52 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Agree about material possessions, houses and above all cars (hate cars) but someone focused only on his or her spouse and children (if any) could soon become very dull for that spouse.

That was what happened to a lot of women in the postwar generation before the new wave of women's liberation. The male opposite number was the Man in the Grey Flannel Suit, though in many more cases it would have been the Man with a relatively well paying assembly-line job - though don't dare question what they are assembling.

Another question - what is this thing against "crowded" cities? Hell, we don't live in Hong Kong or Calcutta. There aren't any really crowded cities in Canada or Québec, our main problem is sprawl and a lack of sufficient density for folks to live carfree.

Certainly agree with you about human values being the essential, but the above are just a few examples of the ideological filter through which you seem to be viewing same (based not on your life but only on your last post).


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
clersal
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posted 26 May 2003 12:51 AM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You know Francis, I think the values, or perhaps I should say, putting our values into practice often is realized much later in life.
We spend a lot of years talking about them.

From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
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posted 27 May 2003 12:22 AM      Profile for Zatamon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Another question - what is this thing against "crowded" cities?
Yesterday I visited some friends in Georgetown. We tried to sit in their back yard, but it was impossible. Had to listen to three different styles of music (country, rock and rap) blasting away at us from three different directions. It was horrible. Had to escape indoors. Today, I was working in my own yard and I listened to the birds and blessed silence in between. It was a bliss. One more time I felt the truth of a line I had read somewhere: "the greatest luxury anyone can afford is privacy".

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lagatta
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posted 27 May 2003 05:35 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Crowded cities have no backyards. There are none in Canada.

Your annoying problem has nothing to do with crowded cities. Don't believe Georgetown really is a city (sorry, I haven't been much west of Ottawa in many years, except for an excursion to the most un-urban Rideau Lakes north of Kingston). Has to do with a lack of savoir-vivre and consideration by an idiot neighbour.

What you are advocating is urban sprawl, and the destruction of the planet - low-density growth requiring people to have cars. Oh, I forgot, you were planning on dying in one year anyway.


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Zatamon
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posted 27 May 2003 09:22 AM      Profile for Zatamon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Changed my mind...

[ 27 May 2003: Message edited by: Francis Mont ]


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clersal
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posted 27 May 2003 10:03 AM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Where did Francis advocate urban sprawl?
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lagatta
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posted 27 May 2003 10:32 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
He didn't, per se. It would simply be a logical outgrowth of what he advocates - achieving the desirable goals of the possibility of privacy and the presence of nature by always putting more space between himself and the next neighbour. And he did bold my point about crowded cities. There is no such thing in Canada. The main urban problem here is sprawl, in large part caused by car-dependent planning. If that trend could be reversed, there would be a lot more space for trees and flowers, even with a fairly high housing density.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
clersal
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posted 27 May 2003 11:09 AM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
He didn't, per se. It would simply be a logical outgrowth of what he advocates - achieving the desirable goals of the possibility of privacy and the presence of nature by always putting more space between himself and the next neighbour.

quote:
to the job we hate,...

quote:
...very little of our life energies is left over for what we really want.


quote:
I had wasted so much time and so much energy, that it was actually too late for many of the dreams I used to have and could have reached, had I been smart enough to know what all my true options were and brave enough to be unconventional.

This seems to be the main point that Francis was making, at least as I see it.

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lagatta
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posted 27 May 2003 11:22 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, I agree. No argument there, on the contrary.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
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posted 27 May 2003 11:56 AM      Profile for Zatamon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually, I advocate self-sufficient local economies all over the country, centered around villages. In my utopia you don’t have cars at all. You walk or use your horse and buggy. Very low tech. People know and respect each other in their communities and the communities know, respect and trade with each other.

There is no TV or computer games either. People learn skills in arts and entertain each other. They tell stories, play music, do crafts, put on charades and perform at the local barn-theatre. They read a lot, learn a lot of science and are very inventive coming up with ecological and non-destructive ways to provide for their basic needs.

Their basic needs do not include ATV-s and jet-boats but they do include clean air, water, food, warm and comfortable houses and clothes.

They have a good local health clinic where they concentrate on prevention by advocating healthy diet and lifestyle. If they get sick, they get the best medical care love and experience can provide. No miracle cures and heroic operations, but generally a lot higher level of health, due to the healthy, stress-free life style.

There are no schools either, in the sense we understand. Children are not shut away into institutions, but are taught useful skills, right alongside the adults, who will take the trouble to educate them both by instruction and good example.

There are no jails either, antisocial members of the community have repeated warnings, leading to expulsion for the incorrigibles.

Life is so incredibly simple -- for health and happiness we need only one percent of the resources we are using. The other 99% is used to make us miserable.

I wanted this on record, just in case anyone else jumps to conclusions about what I advocate.

[ 27 May 2003: Message edited by: Francis Mont ]


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Mr. Magoo
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posted 27 May 2003 12:43 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
There are no jails either, antisocial members of the community have repeated warnings, leading to expulsion for the incorrigibles.

Wherupon they gather together outside your community, then come back and rape and kill you in your sleep.

(Why wouldn't they? You kicked them out.)


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
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posted 27 May 2003 01:34 PM      Profile for Zatamon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I changed my mind again. Lagatta was right. I do advocate the destruction of the planet. The dominant species is too stupid to live.
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Mr. Magoo
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posted 27 May 2003 01:40 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No offense meant, Francis. Your utopia sounds interesting, but without some real way of dealing with rapists, murderers, etc., it will soon become theirs.

I find that most utopias (including "Anarchy") seem to believe that once there's no Capitalism/Ernie Eves/"The Man" that somehow criminals will be so touched that they'll turn their swords into plowshares.

I really doubt this, is all.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
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posted 27 May 2003 01:47 PM      Profile for Zatamon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No offence taken, Mr. Magoo and I do agree with you. It is highly questionable in my mind whether the human species is viable at all. A Utopia is just that -- a fantasy, or a wish list or a short-lived experiment. However, I had to present it to show lagatta what it is I do 'advocate'. Not as a practical solution for all of humanity (there may not be any) but as a compass to steer individuals towards something they can live with in small local communities, here and there. I have found mine and it works for me.

[ 27 May 2003: Message edited by: Francis Mont ]


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nonsuch
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posted 27 May 2003 06:52 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

Wherupon they gather together outside your community, then come back and rape and kill you in your sleep.

(Why wouldn't they? You kicked them out.)


You speak of criminals as if they were a seperate species, inevitable and numerous. Well see, in a sane and decent society - it doesn't even need to be utopian; just a functional democracy - you don't have a lot of disaffected, angry, violent people. You don't mistreat and twist people in the first place. You catch behavioral problems early and correct them before someone becomes a rapist or killer.

Is it time to start another thread on various utopian visions?
I'll bet a week's wages that none of them is impossible to achieve, if we wanted to.


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
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posted 27 May 2003 07:09 PM      Profile for Zatamon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nonesuch:
I'll bet a week's wages that none of them is impossible to achieve, if we wanted to.
A very big 'if'. Who is 'we'? How do we start 'wanting'? How much is a week's wages?

Apart from these quibbles, I agree with you, nonesuch. Criminals are made, not born. If the 'misbehaver' is taken behind the barn early enough, by a few of his peers, and explained in a no-nonsense-way what is and what isn't acceptable, and then let go home where he is treated with love and respect by his family and community, very few would persist.

And I still don't see a roadmap from here to there - and there may not be one due to a possibly irreparable damage we have done to our world. The self-destructive elements in our species may have reached critical mass -- the 'human-condition-disease' may have become terminal.

[ 27 May 2003: Message edited by: Francis Mont ]


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Tommy Shanks
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posted 28 May 2003 09:57 AM      Profile for Tommy Shanks     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd take that bet nonesuch. In light of all-to-human attributes like envy, greed, ambition and the lust for power, I would expect that any utopian situation would soon devolve into a power struggle between a few alpha types with the bulk of the citizenry at their mercy. Unless the utopia was founded by a group of such like- thinking people that dissension would be impossible? Probably be a pretty small utopia.

Concerning the criminal question, while I appreciate the concept of woodshedding a few youthful miscreants, I also would think that there are enough, due in part to the attributes above, more then enough husbands who would beat their wives (and vice-versa Magoo!!!), light-fingered types who just love to steal, and general trouble-makers, kids who like to break windows, joy-ride, and tip cows. Not to mention the sadists and others who just, for whatever reason love to harm.

[ 28 May 2003: Message edited by: Tommy Shanks ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy Shanks
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posted 28 May 2003 10:09 AM      Profile for Tommy Shanks     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, if I had a year to live I'd buy a '69 Dodge Charger and cover North America seeing every sporting event and car race I could. With my family and friends of course.

Driving around, taking in the scenery, enjoying a game at Yankee Stadium, a Michigan - Ohio State clash, and the Daytona 500. Eating BBQ and dinking ice cold beer, do some fishing and play some golf.

Heaven


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Mr. Magoo
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posted 28 May 2003 10:42 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
You speak of criminals as if they were a seperate species, inevitable and numerous.

Well they certainly aren't a separate species, but they are unlike us in that they don't necessarily want what everyone else does. Certainly I can't count on the fact that my utopia will also be theirs, and therefore we'll all be happy as clams together.

I do, however, think that they are inevitable. As humans we've tried pretty much every available way of governing ourselves; has crime ever disappeared? Do you really want to get rid of police and prisons to find out that they haven't? That a pedophile or sadist is born?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
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posted 28 May 2003 10:51 AM      Profile for Zatamon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
That a pedophile or sadist is born?
Do you have any proof of this, Mr Magoo?

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clersal
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posted 28 May 2003 10:57 AM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
That a pedophile or sadist is born?

Nobody is denying they are born. They are humans. BUT they are not born as sadist or pedophile they are formed and as nonesuch mentioned this kind of deviant behaviour can be prevented when treated at an early age.

From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy Shanks
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posted 28 May 2003 11:15 AM      Profile for Tommy Shanks     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So its nurture over nature. There has never once been a murderer, rapist, or other criminal type whose simply gets his or her jollies doing it. Its always due to a behaviourial problem, imparted by someone or something, that, if addressed soon enough, can be cured.

Hogwash.


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Mr. Magoo
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posted 28 May 2003 11:16 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why would I assume that pedophilia (as an example) is "learned"? From whom? Why don't we all learn it then?

Nope, I'm going on the assumption that pedophilia, sadism, etc., are something one is born with, like schizophrenia is, or bipolar disorder is. And at any rate, I'm certainly not willing to gamble my life that it's NOT.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
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posted 28 May 2003 11:21 AM      Profile for Zatamon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Mr.Magoo: I'm going on the assumption that pedophilia, sadism, etc., are something one is born with
As long as it is an assumption, accompanied with an open mind to the possibility of it being false, it is quite all right.

I, personally, will wait until they show me the 'sadism-gene' or the 'pedophile-gene' and then still keep an open mind.

[ 28 May 2003: Message edited by: Francis Mont ]


From: "The right crowd" | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
clersal
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posted 28 May 2003 11:23 AM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The dominant species is too stupid to live.
I think I have to go along with that. Sigh.

[ 28 May 2003: Message edited by: clersal ]


From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy Shanks
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posted 28 May 2003 11:46 AM      Profile for Tommy Shanks     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Boys who are highly aggressive have significantly lower levels of a stress hormone in their saliva, which might indicate a possible biological basis of antisocial behaviour.

“Keith McBurnett, of the University of Chicago, and colleagues studied 38 boys aged 7 to 12 who had a history of behaviour problems. The researchers took saliva samples twice over a four year period to measure the amount of the stress hormone cortisol.

“Boys with a proclivity towards violence had significantly lower levels of cortisol, the researchers say in the January issue of the Archives of General Psychiatry.

“Cortisol is normally released in response to fear, such as fear of punishment for misbehaviour. Low levels, the researchers say, may indicate the boys do not fear the possible consequences of their actions.”

There would appear to be a possibility of a significant link between the observations of this University of Chicago research team and Hafer's observations. The findings in both cases concern anomalies in the saliva of groups of children. It is a well-recognized feature of ADD behaviour that children do not appear to fear the consequences of their actions and do not exercise the usual degree of self-restraint. Hafer claimed many years ago that people affected by phosphate would be at significantly greater risk of delinquent, violent and criminal behaviour.


Now I'll be the first to admit that learned and environmental issues play a huge role in the development of criminals.

I just can't imagine that everycriminal that has ever existed is simply the result of this. Its imposssible considering the range of behavious common to the human race. And considering what we don't know about biology and genetics is it possible that perhaps the occasional b&e artist is just someone with that compulsion? Is it somewhat likely? Are all of you that convinced that every criminal act ever perpetuated has been the result of learned bahaviour?

Now, to paraphrase Francis in his inimitable style, would others at least consider this with an open mind that it may, in fact, be possible in rare instances?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
clersal
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posted 28 May 2003 11:47 AM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I wonder if Mr Magoo and Tommy Shanks have ever worked in either or both, a psychiatric hospital or prison.
You might not assume that these people are born this way. This can be a real eye opener. No this does not excuse the behaviour but sure as hell tells you that the people were not born evil or deviant.

From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy Shanks
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posted 28 May 2003 11:57 AM      Profile for Tommy Shanks     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So there is absolutely no probability that in 1 case out of 1,000,000 (or pick whatever ratio you want)we just have a bad seed, someone who likes to steal, someone who likes to bully people and fight, someone who's just plain old mean and dangerous. No probability whatsoever.

As I said, considering the wide range of human behaviour we see, that certainty is something I don't share.


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Trisha
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posted 28 May 2003 11:58 AM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There are people born with the inability to care about consequences or others. The term usually used for this is psychopath. Research has proven that not all brains are wired the same and some conditions show on MRI brain scans while others don't.

Therefore, just because all the research isn't in to prove anything, I would hazard a guess that some criminal behaviour is due to a condition like psychopathy and others are not.

I read a theory a while back that some politicians and powerful business people are psychopaths. It would explain a lot.


From: Thunder Bay, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
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posted 28 May 2003 12:13 PM      Profile for Zatamon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Now, if I have ever seen a thread-drift...
From: "The right crowd" | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
clersal
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posted 28 May 2003 12:16 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I believe I read somewhere that we are all born as psychopaths but between the age of 3 and 6 we are taught empathy.
Anyhow we are completely off topic. Just to say I never implied that there was not a possibility of being a 'bad seed' for some unknown reason. I do believe it is the exception and not the rule.
As Trisha mentioned one can be a psychopath and not necessarily commit crimes.

From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 28 May 2003 12:19 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
but sure as hell tells you that the people were not born evil or deviant.

Strictly speaking a pedophile is probably just born with the potential to prefer children as sexual objects. It's us, as a society, that decided this was "evil".

Likewise, a sadist or sociopath is simply born to torture, or derive joy from seeing pain, or to not care about the effects of one's actions on others. Again, this isn't "evil", any more than a cat mauling a mouse is, until we label it so.

For what it's worth, I do believe a utopia, however defined, would probably change the crime rate by an order of magnitude or more, but that there's no particular arrangement of society that would a) make the crime rate 0%, and therefore b) make prisons and police obsolete.

Sorry anarchists: we'll always need cops. Fewer ones? Better ones? Maybe. But none would be a recipe for disaster.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
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posted 28 May 2003 12:22 PM      Profile for Zatamon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I started a new thred for this fascinating discussion: here

It deserves a thread of its own.


From: "The right crowd" | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged

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