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Topic: Grizzly in Alberta 25,000 years ago
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aRoused
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1962
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posted 13 November 2004 09:01 AM
It's 'news' to me, but I'd heard about various fauna and even potential stone tools being found in deposits around Calgary dated to about that era. Note that at the time (1995) those deposits were dated stratigraphically by reference to other geological deposits, and not by any kind of radiological method such as carbon dating.That being said, the fact that bears were south of the ice at 25,000 doesn't mean that humans were in a position to get south of the ice at 25,000. That would require that humans be present in far northeastern Siberia prior to the last glacial maximum. The site of Monte Verde is widely accepted to date to about 12,500 BP, about a thousand years before the expansion of Clovis people, and probably too close to the accepted date of 13,000BP for an 'ice-free corridor' to have formed leading from Alaska down to Calgary*. Earlier dates from lower levels at Monte Verde going back to 40,000BP are still uncertain, but possible, and have yet to be widely accepted. Other sites also claim early dates, but also have yet to be widely accepted. The balance of consensus, I'd say, is shifting to a maritime route down from Siberia, along the BC coast, to a point south of the ice. This is supported by finds of very old stone tools dredged up in Hecate strait by, um, oh, is it Daryl Fedje? and also by the fact that isostatic rebound and eustatic sea-level changes means that any early sites along the coast are now several tens of meters out to sea, making them semi-inaccessible (hence the dredging project). *More recent evidence seems to suggest there never was an early 'corridor', but that it formed much later.
From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001
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Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477
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posted 13 November 2004 06:10 PM
I remember a report years ago in the Calgary Herald about things found below glacial deposits in Calgary; but got the impression that the scientific community did not give credence to it. I know someone [a geographer, I think] who says that USA archaeologists [or North American?] are the only ones left who refuse to admit a much earlier date for humans in the Americas.The newspaper article about the grizzly bear suggests the possibility of an ice-free corridor existing earlier than 12,000 years ago. Could bears have come south by the marine route, along the coast? Bear remains had been found in Alaska, the Museum article says none found there were younger than 35,000BP. This one at Edmonton, which is related to the Alaskan population, was the first one found so far south, so it may have gone south before the way was blocked. They don't mention the marine route; and of course to be in Edmonton it had to be able to get inland, so the ice-free corridor would seem more likely I guess. [ 13 November 2004: Message edited by: Contrarian ]
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004
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Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477
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posted 14 November 2004 01:22 PM
So it's possible that humans could have come south by the same route as the bears, but we would need to find evidence that humans were in Siberia or in Alaska/Yukon well before 21,000BP. From what you wrote above, I presume no such evidence has been found yet. And if it is found, there would still be argument over whether humans travelled south by the corridor, or along the coast, or by both routes. So we would need evidence of humans before 21,000BP in Alberta or south to show that they used the corridor route. But there is already evidence of humans along the marine route, which could have been used before 21,000BP or after. I wonder if they are looking more closely at that find in Calgary, then, since the bear skull was found. [ 14 November 2004: Message edited by: Contrarian ]
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004
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marcy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3562
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posted 14 November 2004 03:40 PM
When I was studying Anthropology in the late 1960s, the late (and always outspoken) Louis Leakey was proposing a New World human settlement 'window' of between 25,000 and (Yikes) 75,000 years BP. He was, albeit venerable, not taken seriously in this regard. The Maritime route now gaining increasing credibility (and evidence) indicates that things change. My latest reaadings on the Monte Verde site indicate it is still rather contentious but, if it is verified, it could put settlement in the north back at least 10,000 years to about 21,000 BP - relying, of course, on reasonable estimates of generational travel time to South America. Ya know, having been born beside the Pacific Ocean, I never like the 'ice -free corridor' explanantion. Those grizzlies - what an exciting find.
From: vancouver | Registered: Jan 2003
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aRoused
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1962
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posted 16 November 2004 08:58 AM
Link quote: The earliest human settlement of extreme northeast Siberia, from Lake Baikal eastward, took place late in the Ice Age. This was after the last glacial climax 18,000 years ago, when warmer conditions opened up hitherto uninhabited steppe-tundra. The first settlers were few in number, living off big game, plant foods, and perhaps fish and sea mammals. The middle Aldan River Valley began to support bands of late Ice Age people using microblade technology 15,000 years ago, perhaps earlier. These same people settled as far northeast as the Bering Strait.
That being said, modern humans were in Mongolia about 35kBP, and that's not far to travel. Some people suggest people in the Americas from 40kBP onwards, based on lower levels of Monte Verde and Pedra Furada (the 200kBP Calico Hills 'site' has been fully discredited) But, this was during a time of glacial advances and retreats, so at 18kBP I guess conditions finally lined up so that humans could penetrate Beringia and be in good position to move down the coastal plain to the Americas. Most likely (IMO)it was population pressures that would have driven migration, as 18kBP is close to the last glacial maximum, so Beringia would have been at its widest, but also coldest and most inhospitable, at that point.
From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001
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aRoused
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1962
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posted 18 November 2004 07:40 AM
Keeping up the theme of the thread,thisreports the discovery of a hearth-like deposit dated to about 50kBP using radiocarbon. Impossible to comment at present about it, and I note with dismay that the excavator chose to hold a press conference instead of publishing in Science and going through peer-review. [ 18 November 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]
From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001
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Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477
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posted 26 November 2004 06:10 PM
Report that bison decline was due to cold, 32,000 to 42,000 years ago, not hunters 12,000 BP. DNA samples from 442 fossils were analysed. Reported in Science magasine. quote: The team of 27 scientists said the decline in bison diversity coincided with a deep freeze that may have done in many of the animals about 32,000 to 42,000 years ago. The results suggest the two subspecies of bison ranging across North America today, the plains and the wood bison, are likely descendents of one population that migrated south before the deep freeze.
I suppose it might be argued that maybe humans crossed over 32,000 years ago and hunted them, but again presumably no evidence of humans has been found with any of the bison fossils. [ 26 November 2004: Message edited by: Contrarian ]
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004
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