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Author Topic: Grizzly in Alberta 25,000 years ago
Contrarian
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posted 13 November 2004 01:07 AM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Article in today's Calgary Herald about a grizzly bear skull found in a gravel pit; it is 25,000 years old, which means bears were south of Alaska before the end of the last ice age ended 12,000 years ago; which means humans could also have moved south earlier than was thought, by the same route, maybe an ice-free corridor. DNA tests show the bear skull is genetically related to the present-day grizzlies in BC and Alberta.

Apparently it will be reported on in the next Science. The Herald article doesn't say when it was discovered, but the Provincial Museum reported on it in Feb. 2004 [their staff found it] and the skull was actually found in 1998.
Prov Museum neswletter see p.4

Is this news to archaeologists? Or will they have heard about it back in 1998?


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 13 November 2004 09:01 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's 'news' to me, but I'd heard about various fauna and even potential stone tools being found in deposits around Calgary dated to about that era. Note that at the time (1995) those deposits were dated stratigraphically by reference to other geological deposits, and not by any kind of radiological method such as carbon dating.

That being said, the fact that bears were south of the ice at 25,000 doesn't mean that humans were in a position to get south of the ice at 25,000. That would require that humans be present in far northeastern Siberia prior to the last glacial maximum.

The site of Monte Verde is widely accepted to date to about 12,500 BP, about a thousand years before the expansion of Clovis people, and probably too close to the accepted date of 13,000BP for an 'ice-free corridor' to have formed leading from Alaska down to Calgary*. Earlier dates from lower levels at Monte Verde going back to 40,000BP are still uncertain, but possible, and have yet to be widely accepted. Other sites also claim early dates, but also have yet to be widely accepted.

The balance of consensus, I'd say, is shifting to a maritime route down from Siberia, along the BC coast, to a point south of the ice. This is supported by finds of very old stone tools dredged up in Hecate strait by, um, oh, is it Daryl Fedje? and also by the fact that isostatic rebound and eustatic sea-level changes means that any early sites along the coast are now several tens of meters out to sea, making them semi-inaccessible (hence the dredging project).

*More recent evidence seems to suggest there never was an early 'corridor', but that it formed much later.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 13 November 2004 06:10 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I remember a report years ago in the Calgary Herald about things found below glacial deposits in Calgary; but got the impression that the scientific community did not give credence to it. I know someone [a geographer, I think] who says that USA archaeologists [or North American?] are the only ones left who refuse to admit a much earlier date for humans in the Americas.

The newspaper article about the grizzly bear suggests the possibility of an ice-free corridor existing earlier than 12,000 years ago. Could bears have come south by the marine route, along the coast?

Bear remains had been found in Alaska, the Museum article says none found there were younger than 35,000BP. This one at Edmonton, which is related to the Alaskan population, was the first one found so far south, so it may have gone south before the way was blocked. They don't mention the marine route; and of course to be in Edmonton it had to be able to get inland, so the ice-free corridor would seem more likely I guess.

[ 13 November 2004: Message edited by: Contrarian ]


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 14 November 2004 07:31 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
USA archaeologists are also the ones arguing for an earlier occupation, with sites like Meadowcroft rockshelter and Monte Verde. Not a monolithic group.

The last glacial maximum was about 21,000 BP, so at that point the only way south would be along the coast (if at all).

What's happened here is that while previously it was thought that bears only spread south after deglaciation, this fossil proves that bears spread south before glaciation, and that bears matching the particular clade of this fossil (ie, a kind of subspecies) were south of the ice before glacial maximum. Most likely they spread south through an 'ice-free corridor', but if they spread south early enough, there wouldn't have been much ice sheets around to make it a particularly narrow corridor.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 14 November 2004 01:22 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So it's possible that humans could have come south by the same route as the bears, but we would need to find evidence that humans were in Siberia or in Alaska/Yukon well before 21,000BP. From what you wrote above, I presume no such evidence has been found yet.

And if it is found, there would still be argument over whether humans travelled south by the corridor, or along the coast, or by both routes. So we would need evidence of humans before 21,000BP in Alberta or south to show that they used the corridor route. But there is already evidence of humans along the marine route, which could have been used before 21,000BP or after.

I wonder if they are looking more closely at that find in Calgary, then, since the bear skull was found.

[ 14 November 2004: Message edited by: Contrarian ]


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
marcy
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posted 14 November 2004 03:40 PM      Profile for marcy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When I was studying Anthropology in the late 1960s, the late (and always outspoken) Louis Leakey was proposing a New World human settlement 'window' of between 25,000 and (Yikes) 75,000 years BP. He was, albeit venerable, not taken seriously in this regard. The Maritime route now gaining increasing credibility (and evidence) indicates that things change. My latest reaadings on the Monte Verde site indicate it is still rather contentious but, if it is verified, it could put settlement in the north back at least 10,000 years to about 21,000 BP - relying, of course, on reasonable estimates of generational travel time to South America. Ya know, having been born beside the Pacific Ocean, I never like the 'ice -free corridor' explanantion. Those grizzlies - what an exciting find.
From: vancouver | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 16 November 2004 08:58 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Link

quote:
The earliest human settlement of extreme northeast Siberia, from Lake Baikal eastward, took place late in the Ice Age. This was after the last glacial climax 18,000 years ago, when warmer conditions opened up hitherto uninhabited steppe-tundra. The first settlers were few in number, living off big game, plant foods, and perhaps fish and sea mammals. The middle Aldan River Valley began to support bands of late Ice Age people using microblade technology 15,000 years ago, perhaps earlier. These same people settled as far northeast as the Bering Strait.

That being said, modern humans were in Mongolia about 35kBP, and that's not far to travel. Some people suggest people in the Americas from 40kBP onwards, based on lower levels of Monte Verde and Pedra Furada (the 200kBP Calico Hills 'site' has been fully discredited)

But, this was during a time of glacial advances and retreats, so at 18kBP I guess conditions finally lined up so that humans could penetrate Beringia and be in good position to move down the coastal plain to the Americas. Most likely (IMO)it was population pressures that would have driven migration, as 18kBP is close to the last glacial maximum, so Beringia would have been at its widest, but also coldest and most inhospitable, at that point.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 18 November 2004 07:40 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Keeping up the theme of the thread,this

reports the discovery of a hearth-like deposit dated to about 50kBP using radiocarbon.

Impossible to comment at present about it, and I note with dismay that the excavator chose to hold a press conference instead of publishing in Science and going through peer-review.

[ 18 November 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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Babbler # 6477

posted 18 November 2004 06:17 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, considering the grizzly fossil was found six years ago and only now is being reported in Science, this guy seems to be in a rush. That raises questions about his judgment; on the other hand, maybe he needs funding in a hurry and see this as a way to speed things up.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 19 November 2004 12:39 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I heard him interviewed for a few minutes on the radio; he said he understood why other scientists would be leery of his discovery, although he noted somebody had made some pronouncement without actually having seen it. The lack of a persecution complex is a good sign, I guess.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 26 November 2004 06:10 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Report that bison decline was due to cold, 32,000 to 42,000 years ago, not hunters 12,000 BP. DNA samples from 442 fossils were analysed. Reported in Science magasine.

quote:
The team of 27 scientists said the decline in bison diversity coincided with a deep freeze that may have done in many of the animals about 32,000 to 42,000 years ago.

The results suggest the two subspecies of bison ranging across North America today, the plains and the wood bison, are likely descendents of one population that migrated south before the deep freeze.


I suppose it might be argued that maybe humans crossed over 32,000 years ago and hunted them, but again presumably no evidence of humans has been found with any of the bison fossils.

[ 26 November 2004: Message edited by: Contrarian ]


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged

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