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Author Topic: Scams and Flimflams
DrConway
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posted 13 September 2004 01:00 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A guy I know on IRC pasted me the URL to this website which purports to make "clustered water" in its water purifier. Now as anybody with even high school chemistry knows, the molecular structures they use to claim that their "special water" is a hexagonal polymer, even in the liquid state, are total bunk.

This website debunks the scams, but I was just amazed at the extent to which con artists and flimflammers can sucker people with pseudoscientific garbage, camouflaged in the big words commonly used in chemistry and physics.

Even reading Scam School left me relatively nonplussed at the degree of underhandedness and trickery that's out there, but somehow reading this clustered water thing just strained the limits of my belief in the credulity of people who should know better. My thoughts were, "How can people believe this crap? Haven't we all seen the formula for water a hundred times or more in our lives?"

Comments? Thoughts?

[ 13 September 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 13 September 2004 01:44 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They want $500 for that worthless piece of junk???
From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 13 September 2004 02:07 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Reminds me of the 100 miles per gallon carburator, as well as all the doohickies one could attach to a carburator to improve fuel economy.
From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 13 September 2004 02:08 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sounds like the magnet/magnetized water bunk that Nikken sells people.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 13 September 2004 02:24 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have some nicely clustered water in my freezer, thanks.
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 13 September 2004 02:26 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Behold... The Wine Clip! (The website debunks the "Wine Clip" people)
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 13 September 2004 02:29 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From the site

quote:
It ain't rocket surgery...

Do the authors of this site do this sort of extensive product testing for every piece of spam that they receive?

[ 13 September 2004: Message edited by: Scott Piatkowski ]


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 13 September 2004 02:40 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I hope not. There's far too much spam to ever be easily dealt with.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 13 September 2004 05:56 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ever see a solar clothes drier? For $$$ you get two pulleys and a rope.
From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Snuckles
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posted 15 September 2004 06:50 AM      Profile for Snuckles   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This sounds like the colloidal silver nonsense I sometimes hear advertised on some shortwave radio stations.

Taking too much of it can actually turn your skin permanently blue-grey, as a Montana libertarian candidate for Senate found out.


From: Hell | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tackaberry
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posted 15 September 2004 11:00 AM      Profile for Tackaberry   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That guys pretty freaky snuckles.
quote:
The business consultant and part-time college instructor

But this is the part that scared me the most.

From: Tokyo | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 15 September 2004 11:54 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Rosemary Jacobs has been one of the other big campaigners against colloidal silver scams. She points out that there is definitely no excuse for anyone who flogs this stuff to be ignorant of the medical literature going as far back as the 1930s. In the 1950s, when she had been given some, doctors could still plead ignorance legitimately, but today there is definitely no excuse.

Go after ANYONE claiming that colloidal silver will cure you!


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Section 49
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posted 15 September 2004 11:57 AM      Profile for Section 49     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If anyone's really interested, I'll sell them my blender and some fridge magnets for only $300. You'll get a vortex, electro-mumbo-jumbo, and a stunning picture of Castle Fraser.

Scolling down to the bottom of the site, I noticed the banner declaring that the company was delivering "Ministry through pure water" or some such crap, thereby uniting bad science and shallow religion in one glorious scam.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 19 September 2004 12:45 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Uninterestingly enough, from time to time I get to see guys at work wearing magnetic bracelets and necklasses for pain. I've seen a few of those "Q ray" "Ionized" bracelets on people around town, too.

It's all quackery, of course. Another guy tried to get me to buy a "laundry puck" one time. It was supposed to clean clothes like soap, but some preliminary questions didn't satisfy me that it would be efficatious.

It was later removed from the market and the manufacturer was charged with fraud.

All these scams wouldn't work so well if we demanded some basic teaching of sceptical thinking in our schools.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 19 September 2004 01:13 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Between the New Agers and the religious fundamentalists, basic scientific thinking is taking a beating in society and the school system. If people stopped to realize that reproducible results under controlled conditions, to see what parameter or parameters govern the circumstances, are the only reliable indicator of whether or not various phenomena claimed to exist actually do exist, I think we'd see a lot less flimflammery about magnets realigning peoples' chakras or whatever.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
bittersweet
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posted 19 September 2004 02:43 PM      Profile for bittersweet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
On the other hand, the public is right to doubt scientific claims. Scientists are not always reliable because they may have undisclosed links to corporations like, say, Monsanto. Their lab results are used to make all sorts of solid-sounding, but ultimately bogus claims. How do I know that the irradiated apple, or the GMO canola oil, or the anti-depressant I'm ingesting now won't have serious side-effects in 10 years? And won't despoil the entire environment while it's at it? Women have been particularly victimized by chemists and their marketing handmaidens. Thalidomide, anyone? And what cabal invented atomic bombs? Bricklayers or physicists? Not many New Agers have that much 'splainin' to do. And I like scientists. Some of my best friends are scientists. It's just that they shouldn't be taken too seriously either. They're stumbling around in the dark, too.
From: land of the midnight lotus | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Melsky
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posted 19 September 2004 11:05 PM      Profile for Melsky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A friend of mine swears by coffee enemas. They are supposed to detox your liver. The same friend also thinks that rubbing alcohol causes cancer and that contrails from planes contain mind-control agents from the US government.
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 19 September 2004 11:33 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Chiropractors.

Why otherwise intelligent people think that Chiropractic is an legitimate medical practice baffles me. Why not just go to an Exorcist?

"Say boss, I gotta leave early Friday. I have an appointment with my Exoricist. Yeah, my back daemons' have been angry since I helped my buddy move last week."


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 September 2004 12:03 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Melsky:
A friend of mine swears by coffee enemas. They are supposed to detox your liver. The same friend also thinks that rubbing alcohol causes cancer and that contrails from planes contain mind-control agents from the US government.

Um, this wouldn't be a friend from your science classes, I assume, right? Heh.

Jingles: (getting out the popcorn)

[ 20 September 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
steffie
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posted 20 September 2004 09:48 AM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jingles:
Chiropractors.

Why otherwise intelligent people think that Chiropractic is an legitimate medical practice baffles me. Why not just go to an Exorcist?

"Say boss, I gotta leave early Friday. I have an appointment with my Exoricist. Yeah, my back daemons' have been angry since I helped my buddy move last week."


I go to a chiropractor and find her quite helpful.


From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 20 September 2004 05:19 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Say you have a broken foot. You go to a doctor. Doctor sets foot. Foot heals. Doctor takes off cast. You're happy, she's happy.

Now you have a sore back. You go to a Chiropractor. Chiropractor does a voodoo dance. Back seems to feel a bit better. Chiropractor cashes your cheque and says "see you next week, chump... I mean champ". You limp home. Your unhappy, he's very happy.

Why is it that you need to continue to see a Chiropractor? Either they are not doing any good, or are actually doing harm.

I think one would be better off going to a masseuse like "Sinderella's Massage". You'd certainly feel much better, and relaxed, and satisfied after, and it would probably be cheaper for the health plan.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 20 September 2004 06:02 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jingles:

I think one would be better off going to a masseuse like "Sinderella's Massage". You'd certainly feel much better, and relaxed, and satisfied after, and it would probably be cheaper for the health plan.

I take it you are... familiar with that particular establishment?


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
steffie
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posted 20 September 2004 06:17 PM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Why is it that you need to continue to see a Chiropractor? Either they are not doing any good, or are actually doing harm.

I am hard on my body; my actions cause my vertebrae to move out of alignment; I go to my chiro and she puts my back back into alignment. I know when it's time to go back, because muscle tension around my problem areas begin to cause headaches. After one visit to the chiro, the headaches disappear, and I can walk vertically one again. I usually go every 3-4 months. If I could afford it, I would definitely go more often. For me, it is a measure of self care to look after my body in this way.


From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 20 September 2004 06:21 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Don't let her work on your neck. I knew a lady years ago who said she had had a stroke caused by her chiropractor; and I have heard similar stories in the news from time to time since then. I don't know if they are true, but I wouldn't take a chance on it.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 20 September 2004 06:32 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Between the New Agers and the religious fundamentalists, basic scientific thinking is taking a beating in society and the school system. If people stopped to realize that reproducible results under controlled conditions, to see what parameter or parameters govern the circumstances, are the only reliable indicator of whether or not various phenomena claimed to exist actually do exist, I think we'd see a lot less flimflammery about magnets realigning peoples' chakras or whatever.

Be careful how you label "New Agers". Yes, there are many fools and charlatans out there who deny the usefulness of scientific method. My least favorite are various feminist "Gaians" or "Wiccans" who claim that the methods of science are nothing but a testorone-induced sham to be rejected in favour of an "intuitionism" (for lack of a better word) that is nothing more than seizing on the loudest inner rumbling, regardless of it's source (stomach, brain, or libido) and calling this 'truth'...

All that aside, there are more principled investigators of human 'spiritualism' who openly apply the scientific method; insist on it, in fact. The two men probably most responsible for launching the 'New Age' movement in Europe and North America, G.I. Gurdjieff and Aleister Crowley, both recommended applying nothing but the most stringent scientific method and empiricism as the 'true' method of self-discovery and self-realisation. According to Crowley, for instance, scientific method is nothing more than formalised common sense.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 20 September 2004 07:03 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:
All that aside, there are more principled investigators of human 'spiritualism' who openly apply the scientific method; insist on it, in fact. The two men probably most responsible for launching the 'New Age' movement in Europe and North America, G.I. Gurdjieff and Aleister Crowley, both recommended applying nothing but the most stringent scientific method and empiricism as the 'true' method of self-discovery and self-realisation. According to Crowley, for instance, scientific method is nothing more than formalised common sense.

Principled? Crowley? Drug-addict, animal torturer, 'sex-fiend' and all-round nasty piece of work?


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
steffie
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posted 20 September 2004 07:05 PM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Contrarian:
Don't let her work on your neck. I knew a lady years ago who said she had had a stroke caused by her chiropractor; and I have heard similar stories in the news from time to time since then. I don't know if they are true, but I wouldn't take a chance on it.

There is a small risk that neck adjustment could loosen blood clots that might travel to the brain and cause a stroke. In every chiropractic office there is a fact sheet outlining these risks. A good chiro will make her clients aware of any risks associated with treatment. However, any sharp movement of the neck (eg. looking back over one's shoulder while driving) could have the same effect on the neck. My doctor has been practising more than 20 years and has never had this unfortunate event occur. As with any medical treatment (drug therapy, etc.) patients should be aware of all risks associated with any treatment before they undergo treatment.


From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Puetski Murder
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posted 20 September 2004 07:31 PM      Profile for Puetski Murder     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've only bystanded, but the noises during a chiropractic treatment give me the willies. Ick! I could never do it to myself.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 20 September 2004 08:12 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Contrarian:

Principled? Crowley? Drug-addict, animal torturer, 'sex-fiend' and all-round nasty piece of work?


Perhaps his greatest vice was cultivating the appearance of infamy...

You don't really believe everything you read, do you?


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 20 September 2004 08:16 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Based on the limited amount I've read about him, he was not The Great Beast, but probably a little beast. More repulsive than frightening.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
steffie
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posted 20 September 2004 08:39 PM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's a good resource page on Crowley.
From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Trisha
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posted 20 September 2004 11:49 PM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good chiropractors don't usually harm people and often help a lot but I'm one who was damaged by a chiropractor. I had a stroke after one treatment and I also have a twisted spine now after being treated for what turned out to be collapsed disks but wasn't identified before chiro treatment.

There are good and bad, just like in any other profession.


From: Thunder Bay, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 21 September 2004 08:41 AM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by bittersweet:
On the other hand, the public is right to doubt scientific claims. Scientists are not always reliable because they may have undisclosed links to corporations like, say, Monsanto. Their lab results are used to make all sorts of solid-sounding, but ultimately bogus claims.

Yes, science is corruptible. The things being discussed above, though, are worse, because they're not reliable even if they're not being corrupted.

quote:
Originally posted by Melsky:
A friend of mine swears by coffee enemas. They are supposed to detox your liver. The same friend also thinks that rubbing alcohol causes cancer and that contrails from planes contain mind-control agents from the US government.

With friends like that, who needs enemas?


From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 21 September 2004 09:09 AM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 21 September 2004 03:18 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Contrarian:
Based on the limited amount I've read about him, he was not The Great Beast, but probably a little beast. More repulsive than frightening.

Many of the legends of his 'repulsiveness' are true, and many are not. Some may even be deliberately cultivated. Anyway, regardless of the biographical details, reading Crowley's works will demonstrate that he advocated stringent empiricism and the use of controlled experiments in order to investigate the nature of the self and the 'reality' which we find ourselves in. I'm not a follower of his creed (finding all that dressing up in cloaks to be overkill...) but I think it would be safe to say that he would have despised all the muddle-headed 'magicians' and 'witches' out there who have opted for ideology and "intuitionism" over substantial investigation; especially those of that ilk who pretend to work in his name.

[ 21 September 2004: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 21 September 2004 03:24 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Keenan:

With friends like that, who needs enemas?


Hehehe...off topic, but there are those of the modern-day 'Essene' sect (and similar groups) who argue that the "baptisms" of John the Baptist were likely not an innocuous swim in the Jordan....


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 21 September 2004 03:59 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Most anything a chiropractor can do for you beyond what a good registered massage therapist can do has a not insignificant degree of risk involved. Not that such manipulations have no value, but they should always be a last resort.

Never use any chiropractor unless you can get a doctor (preferably your own) to refer you to him/her - this generally eliminates the worst of the quacks.

[ 21 September 2004: Message edited by: Lard tunderin' jeesus ]


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
steffie
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posted 21 September 2004 04:44 PM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Trisha, your ordeal sounds horrible! My condolences.

I have been to good and bad chiros; the first (bad) was a man who hooked me up to a machine that delivered electrical impulses to spots on my back. Dunno what they were supposed to accomplish, mebbe pull the muscles back hard enough to realign the spine? He hurt me. It was a very bad first experience. When I asked him if he wasn't going to take an x-ray; how did he know what was wrong with my back? He held up his two massive hands before my face and stated, "Twenty-Five years of experience." That was a scary moment.

When I finally got to another chiro he was much much better. We had an office consultation before and after he took several x-rays. Turns out I had a curved back as a result of a childhood injury. He showed me the x-rays, discussed the problem with me and explained how he wanted to help me. When he retired, the woman who took his place was very good, too. It's been about 10 years now that I have been going, every 4 months or so.


From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 06 October 2004 04:24 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Bridging the Chasm between Two Cultures

Food for thought.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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