I've taken quite a few classes in Psych, Soc and Native American studies where issues of gender are intentionally examined as being more than binary. Not just male, female and "neuter"; but male, female, neuter, both, more of one, more of another, etc.

So, my question is this:
For those of you that have a first language that genders everything in binaries, how does that affect (and also effect) those individuals that don't easily fit into a binary gender system?

Just curious...and I have to come up with a creative persona for my class and I'd like to explore the non-gendered persona in a culture with gendered language.

[ 02 October 2004: Message edited by: Crimson ]

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For those of you that have a first language that genders everything in binaries, how does that affect (and also effect) those individuals that don't easily fit into a binary gender system?

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That's a good empirical question, which could be answered only after years of testing.

My guess is that it doesn't affect them much. I speak a language near-natively, Norwegian. Norwegian has two genders "common", and "neuter".

So, pretty well anything living or sort-of living, like the world, will be "common", that is to say, "male-and-female". Much other stuff will be "neuter" like furniture, measurements, and so on.

Yet, despite the existence of the "common" gender in the language, I doubt very much that Norwegians have trouble keeping male and female distinguished when human gender relations are the topic. Norwegians have the same bunch of weird ideas that Canadians, Germans, Spanish, and Russians do.
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Hint for learning gendered languages: ALWAYS learn the word with its article. NEVER say to yourself "Bild=picture"; ALWAYS say to yourself:

"DER bild"= "THE picture".

Also, it would be good if the thread title were changed to reflect the subject of the thread so that people will know it's about gender in languages.

My main questions would have to do with the perceptual differences found between individuals within various cultures...so, a between subject and within subject method.

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Originally posted by Mike Keenan:
Good question. I've wondered the same thing. I'm told (maybe Tackaberry or someone else in the know can confirm or deny this) that in Japanese, some words are pronounced differently depending on the sex of the speaker. That must lead to additional complications.

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Yeah, it's true. Or so I have heard. Though I think it may be more complicated than just pronouncing things differently.

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ALWAYS learn the word with its article. NEVER say to yourself "Bild=picture"; ALWAYS say to yourself:

"DER bild"= "THE picture".

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That doesn't work for French. Nouns beginning with vowels or silent h's (unaspirated) are really tricky, since the article becomes a "l'" and the difference between the "un" and "une" in front of them isn't very pronounced.

...and...psst, Jeff - it's das Bild

[ 03 October 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

In English, we say things like "fireMAN" and "chairMAN". The gender of the title sticks out like a sore thumb, not a mere feature of the grammar but a semantically significant part of the lexicon. So we worry about finding neutral language for the purposes of equality--for finding language that doesn't shout the gender of who should be labelled what.

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Originally posted by Hinterland:

[on French] Nouns beginning with vowels or silent h's (unaspirated) are really tricky, since the article becomes a "l'" and the difference between the "un" and "une" in front of them isn't very pronounced.

[ 03 October 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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[ 03 October 2004: Message edited by: Coyote ]

I'm not sure about this. I'm 1-) an English-as-first-language speaking person, and 2-) not trans-gendered. But, I imagine that living in a culture where verbs and nouns are gendered in such a binary way would have some effect on those individuals that aren't specifically gendered in such a way. IOW, if the freakin refigerator or table or sofa has a gender,but you don't, wouldn't that wreak havoc on one's self-perception/ self-esteem even if it's not so obvious as in a markedly non-gendered language/culture?

Also, how does one formally address an individual that is trans or non gendered?

[ 03 October 2004: Message edited by: Crimson ]

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Also, how does one formally address an individual that is trans or non gendered?

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Originally posted by Crimson:
Okay, so in German, would a transgendered male be "der Frau" or "die Mann"? Or, is there another term altogether that I'll never find in a university textbook?

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I always thought we were supposed to think of it as the word itself (as a symbol) that has a gender, not the object the word is symbolizing. So, for instance...damn. I barely know any German and the genders elude me, despite the very excellent advice above to learn nouns with their gendered article.

Anyhow, let's say "flower" was female. It's the word itself that is female, not the flower itself.

BTW, there is SOME rhyme and reason to gender in language, although from what I understand, there are so many exceptions that it's a pain in the ass. I can't remember whether it's French or German (maybe French?) but there are rules like all trees are (can't remember the gender, male maybe?), flowers are one gender, illnesses are (I think it was female), etc.

The one thing I really loved when I started to learn Persian (and I'm still at the "started" part, so don't think I'm claiming to be fluent or anything) is that there aren't genders. Even when referring to people, the word for "he" and "she" is the same.

[ 03 October 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Anyhow, let's say "flower" was female. It's the word itself that is female, not the flower itself.

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...except it does. In one instance. With the demonstrative articles this, that, these, those. English speakers don't have any problem saying that boy, those boys, even though that's not a regular feature of the language. Grammatical gender in other languages is as automatic and instinctive as that.

[ 03 October 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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Good question. I've wondered the same thing. I'm told (maybe Tackaberry or someone else in the know can confirm or deny this) that in Japanese, some words are pronounced differently depending on the sex of the speaker. That must lead to additional complications.

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Sorry just came across this thread. Yep, Japanese doesnt have gendered pronouns, but it does have different words depending on the gender of the speaker. Its more than just pronounciation I believe. Im sure they have different spelling, but the house is empty right now so I cant confirm that.

The effect on culture is interesting. There is gay male talent on TV, and one of the reason's Japanese like him is female pronounciation and use of female words, which in contrast with most of the salarymen, if really somehing.
And 'cool' girls, esp. in the body boarding/surfing and snowboarding cultures love to use the male pronounication of words, esp. during surfing/body boarding/snowboarding. They're physical sports I suppose, and it also contrasts them with the pencil-thin, Louis Vetton bagged girls of Harajuku/Shibuya And Ikebukuro.

I use alot of female pronounciation/words because I learn most of my Japanese from my g/f and her mother. Some people laugh, but they understand.

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Originally posted by zazzo:
I asked my partner if he had any trouble learning the gender distinctions of the English language, he said, no, he had no problem, but he learned English when he was about 9 or 10 years old.

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I love the Algonquian languages! Wonderful verb and person structure. The verbs remind me a lot of Latin.

My grandmother's and grandfather's friends, who were native speakers of a related language to yours, but who learned it only piecemeal and later in life, often had trouble with the "he" and "she" distinction, and even they themselves would find it funny when they got it wrong, calling my great-grandfather "she" or my great-aunt "he", for instance.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Anyhow, let's say "flower" was female. It's the word itself that is female, not the flower itself.

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Good thing too, considering it's "le vagin."

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Good thing too, considering it's "le vagin

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That is because the word "vagin" is derived from the word for "sheath".

The interesting thing about sexual nouns and Latin is that nearly everything having to do with the sea is first declension (usually feminine), but parse this:

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I think in Latin it is "vaina" or something like that

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