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Author Topic: A new alliance against science
Snuckles
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posted 23 April 2006 04:57 AM      Profile for Snuckles   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The 'anything goes' academic left is coming to the support of the 'God did it' religious right

Peter McKnight, Vancouver Sun
Published: Saturday, April 22, 2006

The religious right has a new ally, and it's none other than its erstwhile arch-enemy -- the academic left.

The latest evidence of this unholy alliance comes from the Social Science and Humanities Research Council of Canada, which recently rejected a research proposal aimed at studying the impact of popularizing intelligent design, the theory that the complexity and supposed design in nature reveal that there must have been a designer.

The proposal, by McGill University's Brian Alters, was titled Detrimental Effects of Popularizing Anti-Evolution's "Intelligent Design Theory" on Canadian Students, Teachers, Parents, Administrators and Policymakers, and that title alone was enough give the SSHRC's review panel the willies.

In its terse rejection letter, the SSHRC said "the proposal did not adequately substantiate the premise that the popularizing of Intelligent Design Theory had detrimental effects" and there was inadequate "justification for the assumption in the proposal that the theory of Evolution, and not Intelligent Design Theory, was correct."

Now those reasons would be laughable if they weren't so pathetic. First, Alters's reference to the detrimental effects of popularizing intelligent design isn't a premise, but a hypothesis. This is what the study was designed to test, so it's a bit much to expect Alters to have the evidence in hand prior to conducting the study. Indeed, were he already in possession of the evidence, there'd be no need to conduct the research.

But as it turns out, the panel's second reason for rejecting funding provided exactly the evidence Alters was looking for. That a committee of "experts" could suggest that ID and evolution are equally plausible theories reveals just how great the detrimental effects of popularizing ID have been.


Read it here.


From: Hell | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 23 April 2006 09:44 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Are academics really left? I think that is a false premise to begin with.

Still, the finding supports my hypothesis that the scientific community has been infiltrated and diluted of credibility by ideologues and science whores.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
virge47
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posted 23 April 2006 10:21 AM      Profile for virge47        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Frustrated Mess why is it when the scientific community agrees with your opinion, you use their findings to defend your opinion, but when there is some change in the scientific communities findings or some discussion as to the possible validity of some different explanation for some phenomenon, you suddenly accuse them of being infiltrated. I thought it was sciences obligation to fully explore and test all possiblilities with an open mind.
From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 23 April 2006 10:53 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's not really fair to say "the academic left" is giving aid to the IDers. I think the committee made an error in rejecting the proposal for the reasons they apparently rejected it. But, in contrast to the author of the Sun article, it's not fair to conclude that the academic left is now supporting ID.

That being said, I think it is worrysome when academic scientists concede any ground to ID. ID is not amenable to scientific analysis. It's simply not science. It's theology.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Serendipity
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posted 23 April 2006 11:25 AM      Profile for Serendipity     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, let's only agree with science so long at its supports our worldview!
From: montreal | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
virge47
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posted 23 April 2006 01:42 PM      Profile for virge47        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It's not really fair to say "the academic left" is giving aid to the IDers. I think the committee made an error in rejecting the proposal for the reasons they apparently rejected it. But, in contrast to the author of the Sun article, it's not fair to conclude that the academic left is now supporting ID.
That being said, I think it is worrysome when academic scientists concede any ground to ID. ID is not amenable to scientific analysis. It's simply not science. It's theology.

You claim it is worrisome when academic scientists concede any ground to Inteligent Design. Why do you have worries? Won't these scientists test the validity of ID, and if it has merit then maybe we should rework our thoeries to include such a possibility. When scientists started to explore the world around us, there were many theories and held beliefs for many years all of which had been postulated by renowned scientists of the time. When it was proven for example that the earth was not flat, the scientists reworked their theories to include the new fact based on observation and testing that the world was indeed a globe. It has been recorded throughout history the fact that when new knowledge was discovered through experimentation and observation, the scientists have change the widely held belief to the new reality based on the latest scientific knowledge. We have just begun to scratch the surface of the universe and all of it's wonders, and to be so narrowly focused and arrogant to think that we have acheived full knowledge as it relates to our universe is naiive and foolish to the extreme.


From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 23 April 2006 03:00 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Already discussed here.
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 23 April 2006 03:04 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
virge47, I'm with you. People used to think the Earth was flat, now we know it's spheroid in shape. Phlogiston and ether, once the cat's meow, have bitten the scientific dust. And Darwin has been dead for... lemme see... a long time now. Maybe it's time to give Intelligent Design a fair chance, without knee-jerk non-scientific a priori rejection of a plausible scientific hypothesis.

Right?

I mean, how bad can a theory be if it embodies both Intelligence and Design -- two cornerstones of human activity??

My only concern is that in teaching our children alternatives to the Holier-Than-Thou Darwinian Orthodoxy, we should not impose a single alternative. Let a hundred flowers bloom! Our children, like our scientists, can be trusted to figure things out for themselves. That's why I strongly urge us to open our minds and reach out to other options, such as:

The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

The following is from a sample letter to be written to U.S. school boards, but it could be adapted for use in Canada:

quote:
I am writing you with much concern after having read of your hearing to decide whether the alternative theory of Intelligent Design should be taught along with the theory of Evolution. I think we can all agree that it is important for students to hear multiple viewpoints so they can choose for themselves the theory that makes the most sense to them. I am concerned, however, that students will only hear one theory of Intelligent Design.

Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him.



From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 23 April 2006 03:19 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It should come as no surprise that post-modernism has no intellectual defences against religious fanaticism. Instead of being concerned whether this or that idea is true, academic theorists have been too ready to label each idea as a "discourse", too ready to accept the fundamental equality of all ideas.

So, just as Sokal showed many years ago, post-modernism cannot evaluate scientific ideas.

So now we should have "God did it" as an explanation in science classes? Why not "The Great Penis did it"? There is no more evidence for the one than for the other.

Anyone who is "open" to intelligent design as science is simply ignorant of science. Darwin died many years ago, but his theories have vast explanatory power. Nothing remotely compares to this power to explain the state of the world and the beings in it.

Copernicus died long ago, too.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
virge47
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posted 23 April 2006 05:05 PM      Profile for virge47        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Anyone who is "open" to intelligent design as science is simply ignorant of science. Darwin died many years ago, but his theories have vast explanatory power. Nothing remotely compares to this power to explain the state of the world and the beings in it.

I believe the above statement should read anyone who believes in Darwin's theory of evolution and that everything just happened by total chance through many re-try's are the one's who are deceiving themselves, since in order to believe Darwin's theory you must take a few leaps of faith in order to fill in the gaps that are present in this incomplete explanation. There are so many questions with no answers, but you cling to a theory that pretends to pass itself off as the final answer to mankind. Now I ask you isn't such an unwavering and obstinate refusal to even look at other possibilities also bad science? I think it is, since science investigates all possibilities not just what a few think it should be.


From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Solomon2
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posted 23 April 2006 05:28 PM      Profile for Solomon2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Virge47 - I may be a bit off topic, but you might take a look at the recent ruling of Judge Jones III in the Dover Pa. Evolution vs. ID case. Here is a link:

Judge Jones Ruling

You might take a look at the conclusion on page 136.


From: slightly north of the centre of the universe | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 23 April 2006 06:39 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hooray for judge Jones. His popularity could rival judge Judy and judge Mills Lane, perhaps.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Solomon2
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posted 23 April 2006 07:10 PM      Profile for Solomon2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Quote: Fidel
quote:
Hooray for judge Jones. His popularity could rival judge Judy and judge Mills Lane, perhaps.

Only in some quarters.


From: slightly north of the centre of the universe | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 23 April 2006 07:24 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is it time to avoid watching star treck reruns because there are serious inteligent design undertones to the show? (You know, how the galaxy was seeded with guys with latex masks).
Starwars does not have those hidden undertones in my opinion so it is ok to watch it.
Just wondering?
For religion followers, inteligent design is a given. (Who worships a dumb God?)
And us doubters should concede that a lot of people believe in a God of some sort.
My opinion is that inteligent design should be steered away from "science" and tacked onto religion where it belongs.(But that may be harder than it appears)

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 23 April 2006 07:25 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by virge47:
I believe the above statement should read anyone who believes in Darwin's theory of evolution and that everything just happened by total chance...
Wrong.

Neither Darwin nor modern evolutionary theory holds that evolution by natural selection occurs by chance.

quote:
To conceive of evolution as nothing more than blind chance and randomness is the most serious conceptual mistake one can make. Evolution does contain a component of chance, but there is far more to the process than that, and it is precisely the existence of the non-chance components that allows evolution to work. The process of evolution is driven by the engine of natural selection, a filter that extracts order out of chaos according to a fixed and non-random set of rules. It is for this reason that many of the most common creationist caricatures of evolution fail. Source

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 23 April 2006 07:33 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think that scientists never really set out to disprove a higher intelligence or universal order to things. Most scientists are open-minded for the most part and just don't jump to conclusions about science. Like the ID groupees, the Darwinists have their own cheerleading section for amateurs.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 23 April 2006 07:46 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
...My opinion is that inteligent design should be steered away from "science" and tacked onto religion where it belongs.(But that may be harder than it appears)
Yes. The trouble is that the creationists do not understand the difference between religion and science; they are the ones who believe Genesis must be believed in as a scientific fact, rather than as a myth. Because they think creationism is a scientific fact, then they think the version of it called intelligent design is scientific and there must be evidence to prove it.

The mainstream religions do not have this problem; they can believe in God as the Creator while understanding that that is a religious belief, not science. Science deals with the material universe, but God is apart from the material universe.


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Grape
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posted 25 April 2006 02:30 AM      Profile for Grape     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Contrarian:
Yes. The trouble is that the creationists do not understand the difference between religion and science.

Amen (irony unintended) - I think that's the heart of the issue. There are criteria that must be fulfilled for a theory to be considered scientific and ID doesn't fulfill them.

Logical criteria:

A scientific theory must be:

1. a simple unifying idea that postulates nothing unnecessary ("Occam's Razor")
2. logically consistent
3. logically falsifiable (i.e., cases must exist in which the theory can be imagined to be invalid)
4. clearly limited by explicit boundary conditions so that it is clear whether or not particular data are or are not relevant to verification or falsification

Empirical criteria:

A scientific theory must:
1. be empirically testable or lead to predictions or retrodictions that are testable
2. actually make verified predictions and/or retrodictions
3. involve reproducible results
4. provide criteria for the interpretation of data as factual, artifactual, anomalous or irrelevant

The idiocy and ignorance demonstrated by those arguing that ID is "science" (and deserving of attention in science classes, let alone equal treatment with evolution) is astounding.


From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 25 April 2006 01:55 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As this thread shows, many who are critical of Darwin have little or no idea of what Darwin wrote, or thought.

It is also important to understand that today's Darwinism includes elements unknown to Darwin, and undreamed of by him.

For example, Darwin's original theory required a mechanism of heredity, but did not specify one, because Darwin was unaware of the work of Mendel on genetics.

It was only in the late 1940s that a fully synthesized genetically-informed Darwinism was developed by people like Sewell Wright, Dobzhansky, and others.

The amazing thing was that the genetic mechanism fit like a hand into the glove of Darwinism. The two are fully congruent.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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