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Author Topic: Where should Science be going?
nonsuch
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Babbler # 1402

posted 27 July 2003 02:03 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What are the most important/urgent areas where research ought to be funded publicly (rather than by special interests)?

Which sciences are currently undervalued and which have received too much attention?

Is there an ethical consideration that shoud be addressed? If so, what kind of controls are needed, and who should be responsible for administering them?

Is there room for one or more new branch(es) of science? If so, what is its (their) mandate/scope and what (if any) kind of ethical/legal oversight do(es) it (they) require?

[ 27 July 2003: Message edited by: nonesuch ]


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Flowers By Irene
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posted 27 July 2003 02:19 AM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Science should move on to music.

Ed.:

(And there may be many others, but they haven't been discovered.)

[ 27 July 2003: Message edited by: Flowers By Irene ]


From: "To ignore the facts, does not change the facts." -- Andy Rooney | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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Babbler # 1402

posted 27 July 2003 02:49 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 27 July 2003 03:49 AM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, the need to research medical cures into 3rd world diseases like malaria is well-documented.

Me, I think scientists should get together and form an "open science" movement modeled after the open source movement. Have a collection of online, peer-reviewed journals that are available for FREE to anyone who wants them. Make publishing costs as low as possible. Thusly the disadvantaged of the earth will more quickly reap the benefits, and science will progress more quickly with more minds working on more issues.

Oh, and I should get a job in Canada.


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 27 July 2003 04:04 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Oh, and I should get a job in Canada

Good luck. There don't seem to be a lot of those going, even for people who have lived here a long time. Nobody much is hiring, except in security, which is mostly not very congenial work.

From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 27 July 2003 09:00 AM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, and I'm in astronomy, which doesn't precisely have hordes of job openings anywhere. Alas, Immigration Canada requires either a job offer or a hefty chunk o'change available for self-support. )

Anyhow, back on topic. The increasing privatization of scientific inquiry bothers me a heck of a lot. This is especially true in biology and biochemistry, of course, with Big Pharma competing with Big Farma to see who can make the most money out of genetic research. However, private institutions tend to lack accountability, and they definitely add conflict-of-interest issues. The words "tobacco company scientist" should conjure up enough issues to get the point across. The Journal of the American Medical Association ahs been having a number of discussions on the problematic issue of whether scientists should disclose their funding support, which may - alas - sometimes bias what they're reporting.

Another aspect is the salary levels, of course. Many promising geologists are drawn by oil company salaries, and away from things like environmental science which could really benefit from their talents. Corporate priorities also drive funding of research programs to an extent, which I see as unfortunate. It's getting pretty severe here in the US, with curricula essentially being diverted toward "applied" sciences, i.e. those that corporations expect to give profitable results in a few years.


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 27 July 2003 09:51 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by April Follies:
Oh, and I should get a job in Canada.

Come to Canada, April!


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 27 July 2003 01:06 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by April Follies:
Corporate priorities also drive funding of research programs to an extent, which I see as unfortunate. It's getting pretty severe here in the US, with curricula essentially being diverted toward "applied" sciences, i.e. those that corporations expect to give profitable results in a few years.

This phenomenon is not limited to the US, unfortunately, April. It's becoming the norm in Canada too.

Someone I know used to work for the National Research Council, the scientific-research department of the federal government. In the "good old days", say, back in the 1960's, the NRC used to be devoted to "pure" scientific reserach, that is, science for the sake of science. Not anymore. Particularly in the last ten years, it's now "applied science" all the way, to the point where researchers now have corporate liaisons constantly looking over their shoulders, poking and prodding them to "invent us this" or "build us that", all in the interest of making a quick profit.

I seriously doubt that those corporate flunkies realize they are effectively destroying science. Because that's not how things work in the real world. Most of the truly great scientific discoveries were made essentially by accident.

Consider the following example: Back in 1819, a Danish professor named Hans Christian Oersted was fiddling with magnets and electric wires in front of his students, trying to demonstrate the principles of electricity as they were then understood. To his amazement, and entirely by accident, he discovered that an electric current run thru a wire caused the needle of a nearby compass to move. (This was actually a little embarrassing, as Prof. Oersted had been telling his students that electricity and magnetism were unconnected to each other!)

To make a long story short, Oersted's chance discovery led to a complete scientific transformation and the introduction of the concept of electromagnetism. Which led eventually to the invention of the telegraph, the telephone, and all the other wondrous communication technologies that followed, right thru to this medium of the Internet we're using right now.

The point is, Prof. Oersted did not intend to spark a communications revolution. He was just fiddling around with magnets and wires out of pure scientific curiosity, without any particular application in mind. In fact, if someone from the Copenhagen Chamber of Commerce had come to Oersted and commanded, "Invent us a means of instantaneous long-distance communication!", chances are the good professor would never have stumbled upon his discovery at all -- he would have been doing something else entirely.

Makes you wonder how many Oersteds there are today, who aren't making breakthrough discoveries because they're concentrated on increasing this fiscal quarter's profit margin for their patron corporations.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 27 July 2003 03:11 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What beluga2 and April Follies said.

The corporatization of research has been something that's been bothering me for quite a few years now, and I regret that I won't be able to do proper scientific research at the master's and doctoral level that has purely theoretical implications - which is not to say it's impossible, but that getting the money for such is harder than if your research appears to have directly practical applications.

I think this is one of the reasons why I resist the idea of being required to do research as part of being a professor (which is what I want to do) and instead wish to find a place where I can do 100% teaching. )

As to the more general questions posed above:

quote:
What are the most important/urgent areas where research ought to be funded publicly (rather than by special interests)?

Which sciences are currently undervalued and which have received too much attention?

Is there an ethical consideration that shoud be addressed? If so, what kind of controls are needed, and who should be responsible for administering them?

Is there room for one or more new branch(es) of science? If so, what is its (their) mandate/scope and what (if any) kind of ethical/legal oversight do(es) it (they) require?


Any research into the basic nature of the universe at the very least needs to be publicly funded. The example of Oersted is an excellent case in point about how some fiddling around with electricity and magnetism launched a pathway to understanding the universe at a more fundamental level, and in the process unleashed all sorts of what we would term today, "spin-off" benefits.

One example of theoretical research into the basic nature of the universe that may go unfunded is research into the K mesons, or Kaons, which the KAON project a decade ago was supposed to open up opportunities for research in Canada. After the feds killed it, TRIUMF was in a hell of a bind; I don't know if they've ever completed KAON, but if they haven't, then the fundamental discoveries about the nature of strange quark interactions and decays will not come from Canada thanks to a penny-pinching bastard named Paul Martin.

Right now, K mesons are just silly particles that decay in unusual ways compared to other particles, but for all we know it could mean some entirely new vista of practical applications 50 years later.

Ditto for graviton research. Right now one of the big problems with getting anywhere in physics is that the current understanding of the universe rests on two mutually exclusive methods of understanding the fundamental forces that drive it. There is some overlap, as relativistic quantum mechanics demonstrates but in the main the two have not been combined properly - I refer to general relativity, which is a geometric description of gravitation, and quantum mechanics or more properly, quantum electrodynamics and quantum chromodynamics, which describe the weak/electromagnetic, and strong interactions, which are based on the idea of particle exchange.

The utterly different description of gravity as a result of warping of space-time poses a fundamental problem in understanding how it might be unified with the other three forces, which have a consistent model of description of their interactions via particle exchange.

I apologize if this isn't very clear to any of you, but the basic point I am making is that a successful breakthrough, a la Oersted, in unifying all four of the fundamental forces would open up new horizons of understanding the universe and may have tons of practical spin-offs.

Ideally all research at any university would be publicly funded and the government would own the rights to such research and if a corporation wanted to freeload off it they would have to pay the government a very hefty fee for licencing it, upon which the government could give a portion of the fee to the guy who did the research.

Which sciences are undervalued? I'm biased - chemistry in general isn't quite as sexy as the biochemistry field, as we chemists aren't out to change life as we know it and the more exotic areas of physics I think are also undervalued. Yes, the grand unified theories occasionally get press, but I think most of the time people just wonder why physicists are apparently wasting their time researching something with no immediate practical benefit.

Ditto astronomy and geology. Chemistry's star attraction is probably entirely practical - materials science; you may have heard about all sorts of new polymers and composites that are being designed. The areas of chemistry that are, I think, ignored somewhat are in quantum chemistry and the use of the mu meson as a research tool. Yes, it's getting more interest from chemists, but the muonium research and so on have, as yet, limited practical application except in terms of indirect understanding about the behavior of hydrogen in reactions.

Psychology is also immensely undervalued these days, I think. Psychology has more direct relevance to understanding human motivations and desires with reference to a holistic model of human behavior, rather than the predominant view of human interaction, which is the "economics lens", if you will, which seeks to shoehorn humans into the homo economicus model and thus reduce all human interactions to the exchange of money.

Ethical considerations? As far as chemistry and physics are concerned, since we don't work with animal or human subjects the main ethical consideration is that one's research should not be captured by a big corporation for the profit of a few instead of the benefit of humanity.

As for life-type sciences - i.e. biology and kinesiology, the added ethical concern is that no human or animal trial subject should be harmed.

New branches of science? I couldn't begin to tell you what might crop up. There are certainly subfields that come and go over the years, but to come up with some new "main" branch? I have no idea. This will have to wait for the purely theoretical research to bear fruit.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
batz
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Babbler # 3824

posted 27 July 2003 11:46 PM      Profile for batz     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Somebody should be taking current scientific ideas, methods and mathematical models and applying them to economics to rigorously
critique it as the scientific discourse it
claims to be. I'm sure that real economists do this all the time, but it would be nice to see some of their work in the popular discourse.

Communications theory, cybernetics and other multi-disciplinary subjects need funding as they can lead to fundamentally new discoveries just by applying some fresh thinking.

Bring applied math out of the cold. Canada should more aggressively persue technology transfer efforts and get some of the comp.sci and other technologies out from under the spooks and into the public domain.

Free GIS data. The US has it, and their perspective is that if the government collects data, you've already paid for it through taxes. Freeing up data from statscan and other agencies would go a long way to improving our ability to utilize it. Statscan charges tens of thousands of dollars for some census and geographic data. Try get a digital elevation model of Canada with any reasonable resolution for less than $20,000.


From: elsewhere | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged

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