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Author Topic: 14-year-old Jehovah's Witness forced by court to accept transfusion
Anchoress
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posted 12 April 2005 03:24 PM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A 14-year-old Okanagan member of the Jehovah's Witness church has lost a bitter court battle against receiving blood transfusions.

quote:
In court documents, the girl described how a transfusion would contravene her religious beliefs.

"It's no different than somebody getting sexually assaulted or raped or robbed or something," she said. "You'd feel violated because it's not anybody else's property, it's you."

Lawyers for the girl fought the case on the grounds the girl was not represented by legal counsel and that she was a "mature minor," capable of deciding her own treatment. They also said the girl's Charter rights were infringed by provincial law and she had suffered age discrimination.


Personally I think they should have respected her choice.

[ 19 May 2005: Message edited by: Anchoress ]


From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 12 April 2005 03:30 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If she's old enough to voice her choice convincingly (ie: doesn't appear to be parrotting what her parents or pastor told her), and if her parents are in agreement, then I'd say let her refuse the treatment. It seems to me to be a totally fucked up waste of a life to please an invisible God who seems to enjoy it when people die young, but part of being able to make choices is being able to make stupid ones.
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lagatta
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posted 12 April 2005 04:06 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Despite the utter stupidity and waste this silly religion inflicts on its followers, I don't think any reasonably intelligent teen over puberty or so should be denied the right to make such decisions about their own bodies - whether or not their parents agree. I've sure fought for the right of teens to get access to contraception, abortions and non-judgemental counselling (the latter is especially important for gay teens facing homophobia) without parental or governmental interference. And church interference - so the degree of the latter must be looked into.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
maestro
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posted 12 April 2005 04:51 PM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In general I agree that this person should be able to refuse medical treatment, regardless of the reason.

However, the Jehovah's Witnesses are essentially a cult, and engage in cult-like suppression of individual thought. I don't think it would be going to far to say that this person is brainwashed.

In any case, there will come a time when she will be allowed to refuse treatment, and then we'll see what happens...


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Amy
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posted 12 April 2005 05:01 PM      Profile for Amy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One thing that always makes me nervous in cases like this is that is she didn't fight against the transfusion, what kind of emotional problems would she have to face from her family and community? I don't know her or her family, and so I don't mean to come across as speaking to her particular situation, but in cases where the 'mature minor' has to make a decision like this, accepting blood (or anything else that might contravene the parents' beliefs) might make it incredibly uncomfortable, if not intolerable, to remain in the family home. I'm not saying that it's a case of 'parroting' when something like that occurs, but I can't imagine the pressure. Edited to add: It's often the case that people have to make tough decisions about family and community, there can be an extra complication when you are a minor and your livlihood depends on your family. That shouldn't be the case, but it is sometimes.

In any case, if the she and her family choose to appeal this, past cases have typically come down on the side of the 'mature minor'.

[ 12 April 2005: Message edited by: Amy ]


From: the whole town erupts and/ bursts into flame | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 12 April 2005 05:17 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's so awful that people already going through one major trauma get dragged through the courts too (not to mention the media), although I see the concern for a minor living at home and under her family's influence.

Amy, in the last case of this kind that I can remember the doctors and the courts didn't give up, actually, until the illness had progressed so far that they recognized no treatment was going to work. Then and only then did they free the boy to seek the alternative therapy he believed in -- which of course did not save him.

I thought the legal intervention was particularly awful in his case because the medical intervention had always had only a small chance of success -- ie, he was going to die most likely, so why not let him go privately and peacefully, even if that meant that he and his parents were going to be throwing away tons of money on quackery.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amy
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posted 12 April 2005 05:38 PM      Profile for Amy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oops, I edited right when you were posting.

Most of the legal cases that I remember I was exposed to through a course that I took in the fall, and although I don't remember that case in particular, it sounds horrible. Morally-speaking, it is hard enough to make the case for a solidly established procedure, but a iffy-at-best one? Especially when it was showing no signs of helping, there is absolutely no justification for that.

I find it really hard to refer to other instances that seem similar when thinking about issues like this, because each case really is different. Each case rests on the competence of the individual, which rests on all sorts of things including maturity and coercion (even subconscious coercion) from the family.

Edited to add: It's especially hard to think about because in theory I really do agree that anyone who isn't 'parroting' should be able to make their own medical decisions. But sometimes it isn't that simple.

[ 12 April 2005: Message edited by: Amy ]


From: the whole town erupts and/ bursts into flame | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Anchoress
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posted 02 May 2005 07:59 PM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
May 2 - Girl, 14, flees B.C. to avoid blood transfusion

quote:
The bitter fight over a blood transfusion for a 14-year-old Jehovah's Witness Okanagan girl is heading to a Toronto courtroom.

The girl has gone into hiding with her family in Ontario to avoid blood transfusions that a B.C. court ordered should be given if medically necessary.

Jeremy Berland, B.C.'s director of child welfare, will apply to the courts to authorize the "safety net" of transfusions if needed in her cancer treatment.

Berland is scheduled to appear in Ontario Superior Court tomorrow to force the girl to have the treatment, including blood transfusions, if required.



From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 02 May 2005 08:51 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
One thing that always makes me nervous in cases like this is that is she didn't fight against the transfusion, what kind of emotional problems would she have to face from her family and community?

Disfellowship. She would essentially be dead in their eyes.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 May 2005 09:03 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Exactly. But gee gosh, that doesn't constitute coercion for a dependent 14 year-old, does it?

Mature minor my ass.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 May 2005 12:46 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I seem to recall that Jehovah's Witnesses asking to not have blood transfusions has driven biochemists to try and come up with blood substitutes. Can anyone verify if this would have helped?
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anchoress
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posted 03 May 2005 09:14 PM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Update May 3: Judge orders B.C. girl to go home
From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Anchoress
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posted 06 May 2005 09:33 AM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Update May 6: Teen back in B.C. for cancer treatment
From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 06 May 2005 10:47 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The consensus on the dark side seems to be that she should be allowed make her own decision and die for her religion ... unlike Terry, which they demanded to have her decision ignored.

Another one of those anti-abortion, pro-death penalty, "culture of life" lies so-cons love to tell themselves.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 06 May 2005 11:10 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not sure it has anything to do with life or death. But obviously if the government sees fit now and again to override some religious nonsense then it might someday see fit to override more.

The idea that one's holy book might not trump the law is frightening as hell to these KooKs. As frightening as the opposite is to us.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
fern hill
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posted 06 May 2005 11:11 AM      Profile for fern hill        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
The consensus on the dark side seems to be that she should be allowed make her own decision and die for her religion

*drift* Speaking of dying for one's religion, did anyone catch the local Toronto CBC drive-home program Wednesday (I think)? The house-guest was a Catholic priest from NYC who was also a musician (hip hop, rap?). The interviewer was tryng valiantly to get him to say something "progressive", something concrete that would show he really is "reaching out to the youth". She mentioned women in the church and condoms to prevent disease. He nixed both of these ideas then went off on a weird rant about a married couple, one of which has AIDS, but even then, a condom shouldn't be used to protect the other because: 1. condoms don't protect from disease and 2. the non-infected partner should die with his/her partner. In-fucking-credible. I was going to write to the CBC but got busy (not too busy to unload here though).
*end of drift*


From: away | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 06 May 2005 12:40 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, I heard that broadcast too. Can't really criticize the CBC for it; the host (Karen Horseman?) was forcing him to come clean about his beliefs, which is presumably what a good interviewer ought to be doing. But yeah, those beliefs are scary.
From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 06 May 2005 01:03 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That broadcast really freaked me out. I hear "and now a progressive catholic priest who use rap to reach the people" and I think thats kewl! And then I hear him and he says "oh yes I am progressive" and then the interviewer talks about the un-progressive policies of the church and he not only agrees with them but actively encourages them with asinine examples.

It floored me


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Scott Piatkowski
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posted 06 May 2005 01:03 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, that particular "house guest" was enough to get me to switch my radio dial from CBC (until the newscast at least), which is a pretty major accomplishment.
From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 06 May 2005 02:06 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Going abstract for just a second--there's a couple of groups who won't take transfusions, right? JW, Christian Science, any others?

But what I'm wondering is--WHY??
Especially in places like Canada where the blood supply is the result of acts of charity. Even if for weird doctrinal reasons you don't think it will work, or should work, or something. So? That doesn't make it a bad thing to accept. So you think the doctors trying to help you are misguided fools, so what? They're trying to help, why not just let them do their thing, and point out that while you believe none of this will make any difference as only God's grace can really heal us, you appreciate the sentiment.

Does anyone understand what the rationale is supposed to be?


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
beibhnn
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posted 06 May 2005 02:22 PM      Profile for beibhnn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My best friend converted to become a JW several years ago which has led to many discussions on why her wedding gift will be The Big Book of Cults. She has offered to lend it back to me to read the section on the NDP.

Re the blood transfusion issue: she explained that the Bible is quite clear that people are prohibited from consuming the flesh of other people. Receiving a blood transfusion is akin to consuming the flesh of another person and so is a big no no. Receiving medical treatment, however, is not prohibited and she is able to consult a wide array of medical personnel over her numerous health problems.

Is this incredibly stupid that she can't have a blood transfusion? Yes. Have I stolen "don't give me blood transfusions if I am knocked down by a bus" card on more than one occasion? Yes. That being said, I believe that she is an intelligent person who has the right and capacity to determine how she will be treated for her health problems and if she believes that it is better to die than to receive a blood transfusion, who am I to keep her out of the fictitious New Kingdom? But if she was 14, I may question whether or not she had the capacity to make such a decision.


From: in exile | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Anchoress
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posted 19 May 2005 03:20 AM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Update May 19: Jehovah's Witness teen allowed to transfer to New York hospital

quote:
VANCOUVER (CP) -- A British Columbia teenager being treated for cancer and in a legal battle due to her Jehovah's Witness beliefs has been transferred to a hospital in New York City for chemotherapy treatment.

In a statement issued Wednesday, her lawyer, Shane Brady, said the girl was transferred to Schneider Children's Hospital from Children's Hospital in Vancouver.

The transfer came after a B.C. Supreme Court ruling Tuesday that allowed the transfer based on an agreement reached between the director of child, family and community service, the teenager and her parents.

quote:
The New York hospital has a "blood avoidance program" aimed at avoiding or minimizing the use of blood in treating their patients.

[ 19 May 2005: Message edited by: Anchoress ]


From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bobolink
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posted 19 May 2005 04:27 AM      Profile for Bobolink   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have yet to see a post that explains why Jehovah's Witnesses should be allowed to practice human sacrifice on their minor children. An adult may choose to commit suicide. A minor child should not be offered as human sacrifice to a god.

[ 19 May 2005: Message edited by: Bobolink ]


From: Stirling, ON | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
DannyHaszard
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posted 04 June 2005 08:13 AM      Profile for DannyHaszard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I appreciated your fine reporting a 'heads up' on the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Jehovah Witness Bogus Blood Transfusion Ban.Why they let Children Die.Children sacrificed,even Animals don't Eat their Young.

Why Jehovah's Witnesses Reject Blood Transfusions.

Jehovah's Witnesses have a non negotiable tenet of their belief system to reject Blood products.

The origin of this dogma comes from their founding father Joseph Rutherford in the early 20th century.The consumption (eating) of blood was strictly forbidden under old testament law.The Watchtower leadership of Jehovah's Witnesses saw fit to extend this prohibition over to their belief system.

They thought that the "end of the world" was coming back then (ca.1940),so,there would never be much of a body count causality.

It is well into the 21st century,with the "end of the world" on hold,the Watchtower leaders have blood on their hands,with the deaths of innocent countless minor children.How would they account for this body count, if they repealed the 'no blood ban' now?

More importantly, to them,the Watchtower parent corporation of Jehovah's Witnesses would be sued,for mega-bucks,for all the wrongful death lawsuits.

Many children have died since rejecting life saving blood transfusions. Why do they maintain adherence to this archaic creed at all cost?Because the Watchtower fairy follows the money trail,and will do anything for a buck.

Hello!What about all the dead Kids?Even wild Animals don't eat their young.

Watchtower leadership REPEAL THE BOGUS BLOOD BAN NOW!

Some educational links provided below:


http://www.ajwrb.org/

http://www.towertotruth.net/Articles/blood_transfusions.htm

http://www.dannyhaszard.com/cultvideos.htm


Danny Haszard: Jehovah's Witness X 33 years and 3rd generation. My home page, WATCHTOWER WHISTLE BLOWER: http://www.DannyHaszard.com


From: Maine USA | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 04 June 2005 08:35 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'll bet the Jehovah's worst fears came true when Canada's tainted blood scandal made the news. We were getting blood and blood products from the U.S. and them from us in true spirit of trade and free enterprise. Blood flowed to our Red Cross vampires from every part of the U.S., including the gulags.

I don't welcome the pests at my front door either. But hey guys, they suffered enough during the Holocaust years. Our parents and grandfathers fought for their rights, too.

[ 04 June 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
A longsuffering conservative
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posted 04 June 2005 11:40 AM      Profile for A longsuffering conservative     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is such a toughie that I am severely conficted. I don't know how I can take a position on this.

But if memory serves, here in Quebec, under the Civil Code, there is a section that prevents people from refusing blood transfusions. Too bad my damned Code is at the office???...


From: The Sovereignist Dark Side | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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posted 04 June 2005 12:36 PM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I don't welcome the pests at my front door either. But hey guys, they suffered enough during the Holocaust years.

They wore the purple triangle, I believe.

They took some shit in Canada, too. I recommend a google search on Roncarelli vs. Duplessis.

Actually, I have a lot of resepct for the JWs. Yeah, their beliefs are hidebound and ludicrous, but apart from knocking on our doors, they don't do much to force their creed on anyone, and they certainly do stand up for what they believe, often in the face of public ridicule.

In Korea, JWs are routinely jailed for refusing military service. They've appealed this to the high courts, but to no avail. A student of mine told me that when he did his army service, he saw a JW court-martialed. The JW was standing in front of a judge, and there was a gun on display. The judge ordered the JW to pick up the gun, and when the defendant refused the judge ordered him again. After several rounds of this, the judge sentenced the JW to a prison term.

Another student of mine WAS a JW. When I asked him what he planned to do when it came time for military service, he replied quite matter-of-factly "oh, I am going to go to jail". He said that he had talked to some co-religionists who had done time, and they told him that it wasn't so bad behind bars. Maybe, but I've also read in the papers about JWs getting beaten up in military prison.

It's also the case that in the US, JWs are usually the people who file lawsuits against having to say the Pledge Of Allegiance in schools.

All this said, I'm not sure if a 14 year old should be considered mature enough to choose a course of action that will result in her own death. No problem with adults refusing transfusions.

[ 04 June 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]

[ 04 June 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]

[ 04 June 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]

[ 04 June 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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posted 04 June 2005 12:54 PM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Going abstract for just a second--there's a couple of groups who won't take transfusions, right? JW, Christian Science, any others?

Christian Scientists are supposed to avoid all medical treatment, not just blood transfusions. But I don't think they're as strict about this as the JWs are about blood. I think you can get medical treatment without being ex-communicated.

The Christian Science newspaper, The Christian Science Monitor, isn't bad actually. Though it's been a while since I read it.


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
GJJ
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posted 04 June 2005 02:20 PM      Profile for GJJ        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
At fourteen she's probably capable of making her own decisions. Visit a hospital for sick children, talk to some of the young leukemia patients ... it'll open your eyes.

I'm on the side of letting her make her own decision. Everyone dies sooner or later; if she can find peace and dignity doing it her way then the courts have no business getting involved. When did our society become so afraid of death?

*drift* The religious right has the strangest relationship to death ... according to their beliefs dying is just going home to a much better place. You'd think they'd be sneaking around and pushing people off cliffs instead of going through the debacles like in Terry S.


From: Saskatoon | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
FabFabian
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posted 05 June 2005 04:54 AM      Profile for FabFabian        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
She is under 18. When she is 18 she can refuse treatment, but until then suck it up. What a waste of court time.
From: Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged

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