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There's always people who vote the strangest ways, considering their attitudes.

But yes, if you had voted Tory I was going to say, them that makes their beds sleeps in it.

Given that you voted NDP (I'm a die-hard NDP voter, myself) I have to wonder at your cavalier attitude towards certain sectors of society.

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In another thread, Human Rights, we got diverted to a discussion of crack users, downtown Toronto, etc. etc. This resulted in someone asking who I voted for and this prompted the above post from the good Dr.

Now, this begs the question. Since I did vote NDP, does this now mean I can't critize or be annoyed at crackheads and drunks who harass me, my wife and baby, who pound on our windows at 3 in the morning, who literally shit on the sidewalk in front of us?

Do I have no right to say, hey you know what, this isn't what you should be doing here?

As I said in the other post, I don't call the cops, I choose to live in my area knowing whats going on, and how its gone down hill in the last couple of years. Seen how the homeless shelter around the corner has been highjacked and turned into a drive-through for drug dealers?

But does that mean I'm a cold-hearted son of a bitch beacuse I don't want to have to fight past a stoned, violent person who's decided to smoke up in the entrance of our building with my 6 month old son?

Would you just accept it Dr. and say, well, thats the bed I sleep in. Would anyone here? Or for political reasons would you say, this is the legacy of the Tories and its not the users fault, therefore who are we to judge?

Sometimes I have to wonder at some people (Ronb excepted who at least seems thoughtful about it) who seem to have lots of patience for this type of behaviour (and usually blame it entirely on cutbacks and the like) because they actually haven't seen it up close.

How many of you would deal with an incredibly drunk woman, asking, then demanding change, then trying to hit you. With a crutch. While your carrying a baby.

How many would shrug that off as the bed you make?

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But yes, if you had voted Tory I was going to say, them that makes their beds sleeps in it.

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I don't know. East Hastings in Vancouver is not a nice place to be, and it hasn't changed much since Campbell came into power. It was pretty miserable when the NDP was in charge too.

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Originally posted by PitPat:
I don't know. East Hastings in Vancouver is not a nice place to be, and it hasn't changed much since Campbell came into power. It was pretty miserable when the NDP was in charge too.

I would find it pretty crass to look at the problems in downtown Vancouver in 1999 and write it off as "well, you voted for the NDP, thems that make their beds sleeps in em".

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Well, here's a small difference: The NDP's ideological basis is not cutbacks and downloading everything onto people who can ill afford (in time, energy or money) to take on the new burdens imposed upon them.

What I was getting at with Tommy was admirably said by ronb - that the correct party to blame is the government in office which has, to a large degree, created the problem by rending the fabric of the welfare state.

It's a structural issue that is manifested on an individual level and thus dealt with individually (cop calling, fighting, whatever) instead of structurally.

The thing is, it's easier to act in a reactive mode (call the cops!) than a proactive mode (hey, let's hold the government's feet to the fire now that we've had to call the cops a few times!) because the proactive mode takes more engagement and commitment and in an atomized society it's hard to find mutual support from others experiencing the same problem.

Back to you, PitPat.

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Well, here's a small difference: The NDP's ideological basis is not cutbacks and downloading everything onto people who can ill afford (in time, energy or money) to take on the new burdens imposed upon them.

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I just feel that the rage provoked by the scary shit going down on our streets is more constructively directed at the sick fucks who are deliberately destroying what used to be an incredibly great downtown, and those guys are not, for the most part, the neighbourhood crackheads.

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Huh. Seems to me that all the government can do is make you poor. It's done that to too many people, and this needs to be undone, but I don't think you can lay the blame for someone's choice of behaviour on the fact that a "Common Sense Revolution" cut their benefits.

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The thing is, it's easier to act in a reactive mode (call the cops!) than a proactive mode (hey, let's hold the government's feet to the fire now that we've had to call the cops a few times!) because the proactive mode takes more engagement and commitment

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Lots of people were hit hard by cutbacks, but they aren't all choosing my doorway to smoke crack.

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Geez Mr. Magoo, you sound like you think that smoking crack and getting shit-faced in the park after pan-handling all day perhaps may be someone's choice. Don't you know there is not a single person who ever chooses to spend their life in search of the next high?

Don't you know that its always someone else's fault. That woman who hangs out in front of the Victoria restaurant? She's a victim of government policy. Which government I don't know. She's been there the whole 10 years my wife has lived there.

[ 09 May 2003: Message edited by: Tommy Shanks ]

That said, I don't think any of us can really lay 100% of the blame regarding drug addiction, homelessness etc. squarely on the government. I believe the government cutbacks have made it more difficult for those suffering in these situations.

However I'm a big believer in personal responsibility and think it's ludicrous to blame the government 100% for the choices some people have made regarding their lives.

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I'm a die-hard NDP voter, myself

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This being a general criticism, and not one specifically aimed at the author.