quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
Unfortunately she was defeated but it's not the end of the world.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
No, Harper didn't run in 1988

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
I think she'd make a good ONDP leader...I guess she could run in Davenport.

---

She could...but Ferreira made amazing inroads here during the last provincial election. He reduced Tony Ruprecht from 58% of the vote in 2003 to 42% in 2007. Not bad! And now that he's run in a couple of elections, he has name recognition. (I'm not sure how he did in the federal election, but Mario Silva isn't as weak a candidate as Ruprecht.)

Also, for some reason, I think the Davenport NDP have this idea that they just have to have someone with a Portuguese last name. Personally I've always thought it was kind of racist/ethnocentric to assume that people of a certain background will only vote for people of the same background. But that seems to be the prevailing wisdom in this riding. I personally don't agree with that, but I think that she might not get the nomination for that reason.

[ 16 October 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
I hear Bill Murdoch is looking for a party.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michelle:
She could...but Ferreira made amazing inroads here during the last provincial election. He reduced Tony Ruprecht from 58% of the vote in 2003 to 42% in 2007.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
No, Harper didn't run in 1988

---

The most predictable problem with Nash coming forward is she is an outsider and like Layton would probably not get a ton of caucus support- half of which seems to be running anyways

Seeing all the caucus members running to replace Hampton has me appreciating how hard his job must have really been. Hardly any of these MPPs have really distinguished themselves in any way.

I don't see Nash running without any support from Cheri DiNovo and the Layton crowd/machine. To date their support has been either rumored or reported to flow more towards Peter Tabuns. I also don't know if Nash wants the job. I wouldn't blame her if she had some real reservations. An interesting endorsement in this next leadership campaign will be if anyone can manage to pull the support of Adam Giambrone. For any candidate hoping to be the leader of a renewed ONDP, it seems like getting him to give your nomination speech would be a minor coup.

As for ridings, York South-Weston seems like a better bet than Davenport for electing Nash. It would also provide outstanding symbolism if the break-with-the-Rae era leader was elected in Rae's old riding (e.g. we're back, and this time we've cooked up something different). If she ran, I would like to see that be her general election riding and I would like her to commit to contesting the first available byelection to show off what she can do as an election organiser.

[ 17 October 2008: Message edited by: V. Jara ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by V. Jara:
As for ridings, York South-Weston seems like a better bet than Davenport for electing Nash.

---

Many years ago, I had a beer with Gilles Bisson, and I liked him then. Not sure what these many years in the legislature since has done to him. Put an edge of experience on his easy honesty and what I found altruistic outlook? If so, I'd love to see him run.

Peggy Nash, however, might be a no brainer, for many reasons others have mentioned.

But now that Ohara and Unionist both find aggreement in this, it's time to re-examine that idea.

(and, as long as we are talking leadership, I am supporting Joe Volpe to replace Dion, as any good NDP person should.)

[ 18 October 2008: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]

[ 18 October 2008: Message edited by: Mojoroad1 ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by adma:
Personally, I find this draft-Nash campaign a bit of a kneejerk reaction to her unceremonious federal loss--yes, she might be valid and "winning", but let things settle in a bit, huh? I'm getting a whiff of the macabre here.

---

Well, I suggested her long before the federal election, so my knee isn't jerking and I'm not macabre. I haven't changed my mind on this one:

quote:

---

She's a woman, she's a trade unionist, she's got guts (if she can manage to keep them in a leadership situation), she could rebuild some links which the ONDP stupidly destroyed with the CAW, she can speak - good pick!

[Dafydd: Would she run?]

I don't know. I'm from Québec. All I know is it's high time you people had a female in charge, especially one with good credentials. No, not Cheri DiNovo.

I'm biased though. I'm a trade unionist.

---

Draft Peggy NOW. Make sure she knows there are masses of people that want her there. She is also the only one not tainted by the horrendous election platform of the ONDP in the last provincial election, and its do-next-to-nothing record over (pick your time frame).

quote:

---

Originally posted by ohara:
unionist does this mean the moshiach may come

---

She has already arrived, and her name is Peggy!

[ 18 October 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

---

At least in part, it's also a reaction to the fact that none of the declared candidates have really generated a whole lot of excitement so far.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prophit:
I think we should bring back Francis Lankin.

---

quote:

---

Nash declined requests from the Star for an interview. Her friend and colleague, MPP Cheri DiNovo, said Nash told her Thursday she is absolutely not interested in pursuing leadership of the provincial NDP, a point she has made before.

"First and foremost, she was interested in federal politics, it was her gift and her joy. The other thing, of course, is she doesn't have a seat provincially and we've all seen how difficult it is to be a leader without a seat," said DiNovo, referring to provincial Progressive Conservative Leader John Tory and Green Leader Elizabeth May.

---

It's very strange for someone to deny interest in leadership intentions on someone else's behalf.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max Bialystock:
I'm pretty sure she supports Bob Rae now.

---

quote:

---

On August 29, 2008, (Gilles) Bisson announced he will run to succeed Howard Hampton as the next leader of the Ontario New Democratic Party.

---

quote:

---

Most Ontarians give the NDP full credit for standing up for them when it comes to enhancing and protecting social programs such as public health care. However, voters want to be assured that the NDP will take economic policies just as seriously.

---

So public health care is somehow distinct from "economic policies". Interesting thought process.

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
So public health care is somehow distinct from "economic policies". Interesting thought process.

Go, Peggy, go!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by candle:
Andrea Horvath

---

here, and

here, and

here, and

here, and

here, and

here. As well as

here and even way back when she was running in the 2004 by-election:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Booker:
Just watched the CH @ 5:30 debate and subsequent TV coverage.

Another decisive victory for the confident, articulate, stately Andrea Horwath. On issue after issue, she looked every bit the next Hamilton East MPP.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Booker:
More coverage of the Hamilton East debate in the Stoney Creek News.

Highlights:

New Democrat candidate Andrea Horwath and Progressive Conservative candidate Tara Crugnale relentlessly hammered at Mr. Agostino and the Liberal government's record of broken promises, saying Hamilton East residents need a "fighter" at Queen's Park and not a person who makes "excuses" for breaking the government's promises.

"I'm an arrogant government's worst nightmare," said Ms. Horwath, to a chorus of applause from the pro- NDP crowd at Hamilton Cathedral Secondary School.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Phil:
I am fascinated by the energy this election has generated among my Steeltown co-workers.

. . there seems to be a real sense that dirty tricks and slimy tactics are completely wrong when they're directed toward someone like Horwath. Her local profile and reputation for integrity has clearly generated a degree of respect that is pretty rare these days.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug:

Without good economic policy, we won't be able to afford the sort of public health care we'd like. That should be obvious.

---

Yes, with massive surpluses through the Chrétien years and huge wealth generated in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the like, medicare really flourished.

I think there's a campaign slogan in there somewhere:

Get rich, get healthy!!

or

Health via Wealth!!

[ 22 October 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:

Yes, with massive surpluses through the Chrétien years and huge wealth generated in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the like, medicare really flourished.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug:

It could have, had they chosen to do so, which is a far better situation than not having the money at all.

---

Wrong, Doug. This country built pathbreaking social programs first, and figured out how to pay for them later. Sorry to be so brazen about it. Later, when attention turned to surplus financing, the dismantling of social safety nets (EI, public health care, public housing, etc.) began.

It's too much to be explained by coincidence.

I would rather trust a poor person than a rich one with the survival of our social programs.

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:

Wrong, Doug. This country built pathbreaking social programs first, and figured out how to pay for them later. Sorry to be so brazen about it. Later, when attention turned to surplus financing, the dismantling of social safety nets (EI, public health care, public housing, etc.) began.

---

Canada's economy was pretty dull and grey in 1935. Liberals nationalised Bank of Canada in 1938 and pressured by CCF to do it. A war debt was paid down, and new infrastructure and social programs were funded by the feds creating near interest-free money - about a quarter of the total supply between 1938 and 1974. There was money for schools, hospitals, power dams and health care. "Stagflation" happened, and neoliberalism. Banking and finance was deregulated. Bank bailouts ensued.

Second to few other countries in the world national debt happened in Canada unnecessarily.

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
[QB]
Wrong, Doug. This country built pathbreaking social programs first, and figured out how to pay for them later.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
CCF-NDP governments, with the exception of Liberal in sheeps clothing Rae have always been very fiscally responsible.

---

Rae's NDP ran budget deficits and injecting much-needed countercyclical dollars into a recessionary Ontario.

Rae's NDP was the first government in the province's history to reduce year to year spending in order to deal with the recession.

Campaign from the right, then govern from the left.

Just like the Liberals.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
This crap about being "fiscally responsible" is a line the NDP should be challenging, not embracing.

---

Since FTAA-NAFTA, provinces are living in a phone booth wrt powers of taxation and public sector expansion. Canada is middle of the pack wrt overall taxation at the federal level. If Ottawa pulls tax revenues well below the OECD average as a percentage of GDP, then we're not going to be able to afford a lot of things.

Layton would reverse Tory-Liberal corporate tax cuts

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
C'mon, guys, how is the NDP supposed to replace the Cons and the Libs unless it sounds just like them?

Campaign from the right, then govern from the left.

Just like the Liberals.

I think.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
This crap about being "fiscally responsible" is a line the NDP should be challenging, not embracing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
Peter Tabuns officially launched his campaign today. Did any babblers make it out to the event?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by spincycle:
Tabuns eyes Hampton's Job The first comment at the bottom of the article refers to others on the stage with Tabuns.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mojoroad1:

Spincycle, I was the "man in black" (it was laundry day) sitting next to Peter's mom up front BTW.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by spincycle:
Tabuns eyes Hampton's Job The first comment at the bottom of the article refers to others on the stage with Tabuns.

---

quote:

---

Also endorsing Peter was none other than Jill Marzetti, former executive director of the Ontario NDP, and the party's former federal secretary, and Janet Solberg -who introduced Tabuns- Steven Lewis's accomplished sister who's famous beyond her familial ties for advocating social justice within the NDP and outside of it.

---

But didn't they support Frances Lankin?

[ 27 October 2008: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by malpeque:

It was a great event wasn't it Mojoroad. I was particularly impressed by the diversity of the room and the huge contingent of young people. Also sitting near you was Janucz Duksta (sp) former MPP for Parkdale-High Park. My partner was near you too but I ended up at the back of the room. Understand a video of the speech will be ready soon so theres a good chance your partner won't be blocked out all the time. cheers!

---

Yeah I was impressed by the diversity of the room....I don't know Janucz by sight, even though I lived in PHP for more than a few years.

Heh, as an aside, funny thing about the Torstar "comment" I wrote... as it was completely factual, I had to laugh when someone put a "disagree" thumbs down on it!

Hilarious!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug:
Frances Lankin, quite unfortunately and unjustly, had Bob Rae hanging around her neck. All this does pretty much signal Tabuns as the "establishment" choice, to whatever degree that helps or hurts.

---

quote:

---

Frances Lankin, quite unfortunately and unjustly, had Bob Rae hanging around her neck.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by adma:
Plus the Toronto versus Not From Toronto factor, I suppose...

---

Thought about that one awhile ago.....but you know what? Howard has steered the ship from the farthest flung riding in Northern Ontario for so long, I really can't see that as a drag on the 3 "southerners" (inc Horwath).... I really do think it will come down to ideas and debates , leadership skills and organization.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
This crap about being "fiscally responsible" is a line the NDP should be challenging, not embracing.

---

quote:

---

Plus the Toronto versus Not From Toronto factor, I suppose...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
the federal ND is led by a man who is often depicted as the total personification of Toronto -

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:

Meanwhile, the federal ND is led by a man who is often depicted as the total personification of Toronto - yet under his leadership, the federal NDP had its greatest results ever in Ontario winning just about every single seat in northern Ontario (something the man from Fort Frances has never manged to do), Hamilton, Windsor etc...

---

Funny world.

Wilf, you seem like an historian, did the Lewis clan back Michael Cassidy? If not, that's another one they lost. If so, I think they're repeating history. Peter's a nice guy but he's not a Jack Layton much less a Stephen Lewis.

I don't think the NDP needs another earnest but boring white guy in his late-50s talking about energy efficiency.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: 1948 ]

Saturday, Nov. 1, 3 p.m. to 5 p.m. OISE Auditorium, Toronto, main floor
Debate of the Candidates for Ontario NDP Leader
open to all NDP members, the general public and the media

Gilles Bisson, MPP Timmins-James Bay
Andrea Horwath, MPP Hamilton Centre
Michael Prue, MPP, Beaches-East York
Peter Tabuns, MPP, Toronto-Danforth

Format: Opening statements from each candidate, questions to candidates from our panel.... Street nurse, leading anti-poverty activist and author of Dying for a Home, Cathy Crowe; School trustee with Bluewater District, and Vice-Chair, Western Region, Ontario Public School Board Association, Jan Johnstone; and NDP Socialist Caucus co-chair Barry Weisleder; followed by candidates answers, questions from the audience, more candidates answers, and a concluding statement from each candidate.
____________________________________________________________________

quote:

---

I don't think the NDP needs another earnest but boring white guy in his late-50s talking about energy efficiency.

---

You may be right - but what are the alternatives?

Prue (another earnest but boring white guy in his late-50s NOT talking about energy efficiency).

Bisson (windbag from Timmins who is regarded as an ANTI-environmentalist and who cast one of the only votes against a bill to increase penalties for cruelty to animals)

quote:

---

Gilles Bisson, MPP Timmins-James Bay
Andrea Horwath, MPP Hamilton Centre
Michael Prue, MPP, Beaches-East York
Peter Tabuns, MPP, Toronto-Danforth

---

quote:

---

I think the few hundred enthusiastic people who showed up at Tabuns' event, including a handful of Babblers, wouldn't agree with these assessments.

---

I heard Peter speak and was able to ask him some questions, recently.

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Victor:

I heard Peter speak and was able to ask him some questions, recently.

His speech was not inspiring and aside from a green aversion to nuclear, I did not come away with a clear understanding of his economics.

---

code:

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:

Someday someone will have to explain to me why Lankin was seen as having the Bob Rae albatross hanging around her neck, while Hampton was not - even though he held two senior cabinet portfolios under Rae and voted for the social contract like almost everyone else.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Victor:

I heard Peter speak and was able to ask him some questions, recently.

His speech was not inspiring and aside from a green aversion to nuclear, I did not come away with a clear understanding of his economics. He does seem to be the "safe" choice for the powers that be. And maybe he can "get down" and forceful in a fashion that Stephane, for instance, found impossible?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:

Someday someone will have to explain to me why Lankin was seen as having the Bob Rae albatross hanging around her neck, while Hampton was not - even though he held two senior cabinet portfolios under Rae and voted for the social contract like almost everyone else.

---

Lankin was seen as being in Rae's inner circle while Hampton - who was demoted from Attorney General to Natural Resources in 1993 - was not. It was also widely believed that Rae and Hampton didn't get along and widely perceived that the party establishment backed Lankin.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max Bialystock:

You're right - Hampton is a hypocrite.

---

quote:

---

It was also widely believed that Rae and Hampton didn't get along

---

Do I need to go appeal to her as one trade unionist to another?

Bring back the angry Hampton:

What happened to the ONDP's rebel spirit? Rae stole the party's idealism, somebody please bring it back.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: V. Jara ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Left J.A.B.:
I actually thought that was one of Hampton's finest moments.

---

Beg to differ. He was stuck, because of his hypocritical position on religious school funding (i.e. funding for Catholics only). With an unprincipled stand, it's easy to let the agenda slip away from you.

Seniors need to be cared for, and public education needs to be secular and the same for all. There's no contradiction here.

Hampton's concern for seniors didn't impress the voters much, did it?

This issue was amply debated on babble at the time.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: V. Jara ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
What makes you so sure that you would like Peggy Nash's views on whether or not to abolish the separate school system in Ontario?

---

It doesn't matter in the least. The world doesn't revolve around that one issue. The ONDP is going absolutely nowhere at top speed, and they need a serious change. They need a woman, they need a trade unionist, they need an inspiring and hardworking leader, untainted by the messes of the past. That's Peggy Nash.

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:

Beg to differ. He was stuck, because of his hypocritical position on religious school funding (i.e. funding for Catholics only). With an unprincipled stand, it's easy to let the agenda slip away from you.

Seniors need to be cared for, and public education needs to be secular and the same for all. There's no contradiction here.

Hampton's concern for seniors didn't impress the voters much, did it?

This issue was amply debated on babble at the time.

Go, Peggy, go!!!

---

What a load of horsedung. There was nothing unprincipled about the NDP stance on funding. If you really think the most pressing issue in Ontario education is seperate vs public financing you need to get out more. Not only that put I went past one of the location McGuinty made one of his big defense of public education speeches at the time all the media vans and the tour bus were there. It was at a school called Mother Theresa. Yu think that was a 'public' school.

And if you think the conditions in nursing homes that many seniors face is anything comparable to a debate of private vs public education you are in for a sad shock in a few years.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Left J.A.B.:
There was nothing unprincipled about the NDP stance on funding.

---

Yes there was. They're ok with having public Catholic schools but not public Jewish and Muslim schools. That could well serve as a definition of "unprincipled".

quote:

---

If you really think the most pressing issue in Ontario education is seperate vs public financing you need to get out more.

---

I never said it was "the most pressing issue". If Hampton had said, "John Tory is an idiot, and McGuinty had better understand that we need to move toward a single public school system with careful preparation and transition", he could have got back to his agenda. But he (and/or his ONDP) were too cowardly, too scared of their own shadow, to take that simple stand of principle. So, he was fucked, and deservedly so.

quote:

---

Not only that put I went past one of the location McGuinty made one of his big defense of public education speeches...

---

What are you talking about? McGuinty and Hampton shared exactly the same pathetic position. Only McGuinty was a lot more skillful than Hampton at skating and diverting. He managed to turn it into a poison pill for Tory, while Hampton whined about "why won't anyone listen to me and what I think are the REAL issues???"

It would be nice to have an ONDP not haunted by its past that could actually look like a viable opposition to McGuinty's Liberals.

quote:

---

And if you think the conditions in nursing homes that many seniors face is anything comparable to a debate of private vs public education you are in for a sad shock in a few years.

---

Oh spare me. Either the seniors, or secularism, and I have to prioritize. Go Google logical fallacies. And what did Hampton do about nursing homes in 1990 to 1994? Or about same-sex benefits for that matter?

quote:

---

Hampton was exactly right and I for one was very proud of him and the NDP when he took on those reporters. The sad answer was though that none of them cared.

---

The rest of your screed is sure not the reality I remember living in Ontario in the 1990s. But then I wasn't an NDP supporter than. Just a young person trying to make his way in the world.

I was hoping that Nash might come in, but if this is the kind of supporters she would attract, it would doom the NDP to once again fighting for party status. I think I will look elsewhere.

You might want to look up the terms logical fallicies and comparative objects yourself by the way.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: Left J.A.B. ]

code:

---

---

Hmm.

And he's from the "change wing" of the NDP. A family member asks "is that the old white-haired male wing?"

Andrea Horwath.

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
He was stuck, because of his hypocritical position on religious school funding (i.e. funding for Catholics only).

---

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]

quote:

---

Hampton's concern for seniors didn't impress the voters much, did it?

---

Actually, he lashed out at the media in the dying days of the last election and probably saved a couple of NDP seats in the process. It is too bad he didn't get angry earlier.

As for 1990-94 , you're not arguing there was any opportunity to expand programs in that recession? Or are you ?

The Harrisites lowered the amount of personal care time for long-term-care residents (some wound up with one bath a week) to make the sector more inviting for private sector investment. Helping build some new residences also helped.

One could go on, but what the hell, the great unwashed don't count on ever winding up drooling over the side of a wheechair themselves, so it's not a vital election issue. Certainly not in the face of the now-universal appeal of lower taxes.

Like Bageant's American heartland - "dumb as a bag of hair."

quote:

---

He didn't "take on" the reporters. He was whining and evading because he had lost. He's not a leader. Thank God he's leaving.

---

Unmitigated bullshit,u .

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]

He voted for same-sex spousal benefits. He started drafting the Legislation when he was Attorney General. The government of 1990-1995 was generally seen as moving in a good direction on long-term care but, as with many things, they bungled the execution and the reform process was stillborn by the time they lost. Hard to blame that on Hampton.

I think he rebuilt a party that could have imploded after the Rae years and I think he got some unlucky bounces in the last election. I certainly think the sweep of Northern Ontario had more to do with Howard Hampton then Jack Layton. To be fair to Jack, Hampton's win in Parkdale-High Park had more to do with Layton the Howard.

Anyway.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Left J.A.B.:
Please let me know which reporters pointed out the irony of McGuinty speaking about 'public' education at Catholic schools.

---

McGuinty is smarter than Hampton. He got away with it.

quote:

---

The rest of your screed is sure not the reality I remember living in Ontario in the 1990s.

---

Then you don't recall the betrayal of a government, elected by efforts of workers and people with high hopes for change, which broke its promise to nationalize auto insurance; tore up signed collective agreements with its own unions and stole from the workers; and made same-sex benefits a "free vote" because of their craven cowardice. Check the history, since you were doing other things at the time, and let me know your verdict on that dastardly group, who did more to sully the name of the NDP than most in recent history. That betrayal needs to be washed clean.

quote:

---

I was hoping that Nash might come in, but if this is the kind of supporters she would attract, it would doom the NDP to once again fighting for party status. I think I will look elsewhere.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wilf Day:

Not Hampton's stand. The Ontario NDP's stand, reaffirmed by several conventions. Don't you think Caucus should follow convention decisions?

---

LOL, what's this, trailblazing a new tradition for the ONDP?

Every gang of hypocrites follows exactly those convention decisions which suits them.

quote:

---

I certainly think the sweep of Northern Ontario had more to do with Howard Hampton then Jack Layton.

---

huh?? how do you explain that credit for the FEDERAL NDP led by Layton winning almost every seat belongs to ONDP leader Hampton who never won more than three seats in the north??

The one seat in all of northern Ontario that the NDP did NOT win on Oct. 14 was Kenora - Hampton's riding provincially. In other words the one seat where you would think that "Hampton-mania" might have helped tghe federal NDP - it didn't.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Victor:
As for 1990-94 , you're not arguing there was any opportunity to expand programs in that recession? Or are you ?

---

1. Betraying the whole electorate by reneging on their promise of public auto insurance.

2. Betraying the workers' movement by tearing up negotiated agreements and stealing from their employees.

3. Betraying the LGBT community by making same-sex benefits (aka human rights) a "free vote", thus ensuring its defeat.

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:

1. Betraying the whole electorate by reneging on their promise of public auto insurance.

---

It was very scary neoliberal old line party-induced nation-wide recession. $4 billion shorted by Mulroney - an "unforseen" $2-$3 billion dollar Liberal budget deficit handoff to the NDP

CUPE told Rae that those insurance industry workers would have a difficult time finding alternate work during that period. Perhaps in a successive term, like Tommy Douglas needed to implement socialized medicine in Saskatchewan

quote:

---

2. Betraying the workers' movement by tearing up negotiated agreements and stealing from their employees

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TCD:
He voted for same-sex spousal benefits.

---

He's not a homophobe! See, he's not all bad! Too bad he couldn't sway his caucus to have a whipped vote, and too bad he didn't call for the homophobes in his very own caucus to be tossed out on their sorry asses.

quote:

---

Hard to blame that on Hampton.

---

Ok, can I blame auto insurance on him? Did he apologize on his party's behalf and promise to redress the betrayal? What about the attack on the public sector workers? Did he apologize for that? Did he say he would introduce legislation (in conformity with last year's Supreme Court decision on the constitutional protection for collective bargaining) to make it impossible for government to effect such draconian actions again?

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:

Ok, can I blame auto insurance on him? Did he apologize on his party's behalf and promise to redress the betrayal? What about the attack on the public sector workers? Did he apologize for that? Did he say he would introduce legislation (in conformity with last year's Supreme Court decision on the constitutional protection for collective bargaining) to make it impossible for government to effect such draconian actions again?

The only thing he and his party accomplished was a disgusted electorate and betrayed supporters, followed by 14 years (and counting) of Harris, Eves, and McGuinty. Lots of penance is needed - and a fresh start.

---

Seems to me you know next to nothing about Ontario politics in those days. As a young union leader who publicly quit the NDP and the riding association of a Minister I think I can speak with a bit of authority.

Hampton has in fact publicly admitted that reneging on public auto insurance was a big mistake. How do I know, I was in the damn room when he said it.

If memory serves the only prominent elected member who objected publicly to the Social Contract was Karen Haslam from Perth. To blame Hampton is downright dishonest and silly. There is not a New Democrat from the time who doesn’t share the blame. However, the overwhelming amount of it belongs with Bob Rae. It is only speculation that others would have stood up to Rae publicly like Haslam.

As a public service union local president I have to say that Rae days didn’t seem quite so bad given what happened with Harris in charge. And here is a little newsflash- it was many union workers, teachers, nurses and even social assistant recipient that helped put Harris into office. That doesn’t mean I agree with the social contract, but that in the fullness of time, it is pretty clear that many of us cut off our nose to spite our face by stepping aside and by doing that indirectly helping to elect Mike Harris.

ETA Call me a Hampton loyalist if you want, but I believe strongly the NDP would not exist in any real sense in Ontario without the leadership Hampton showed. I am in the NDP today because of Hampton and a few others.
That said I am looking forward to a new start with a new leader and to next Friday most especially.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: Bookish Agrarian ]

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

huh?? how do you explain that credit for the FEDERAL NDP led by Layton winning almost every seat belongs to ONDP leader Hampton who never won more than three seats in the north??

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Hampton, as I mentioned, didn't get the splits he needed in the North.

John Rafferty (a Hampton recruit by the by) lost in 2007 with 37% and won in 2008 with 40%. The difference? Tories went from 9% to 23%.

Peter Denley lost in Algoma with 37% in 2007 while Carol Hughes won with 45% in 2008. Tories way up again.

Dave Battaino went up against a popular cabinet minister in Sudbury and scored 27 per cent in 2007. In 2008 that same Liberal provincial minister spent the entire campaign attacking his fellow Liberal while the Tory vote surged from 7% to 28%... and the we took Sudbury.

In Timiskaming we almost won provincially and were blown out federally. Tories were at 13% provincially - 32% federally.

Nickel Belt felt close in 2007 even though we finished at 46%. Federally in 2008 we finished 20 points ahead with the same result. The difference? Tories went from 10% to 22%.

Jim Foulds lost the other half of T Bay with 39% in 2007 while Bruce Hyer won with 37%. The difference? Tories went from 9% to 26%.

That's right. We got MORE votes in 2007 but we lost then.

Do you get it now?

Next federal convention ask John Rafferty whether Howard Hampton was a drag on his chances. Let me know if he doesn't break your nose.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: TCD ]

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Originally posted by unionist:
Lots of penance is needed - and a fresh start.

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Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
Hampton has in fact publicly admitted that reneging on public auto insurance was a big mistake. How do I know, I was in the damn room when he said it.

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And he promised in subsequent election campaigns to make good on that broken promise? Sorry, I must have missed that.

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If memory serves the only prominent elected member who objected publicly to the Social Contract was Karen Haslam from Perth. To blame Hampton is downright dishonest and silly. There is not a New Democrat from the time who doesn’t share the blame.

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Excuse me, I don't know what you mean by "New Democrat", but every union colleague of mine from Ontario that I can think of (except one weirdo and one CAW local rep) votes NDP, works for the NDP, federally and provincially - and they didn't hesitate to publicly damn the government for what it did to the workers at that time. Yes, let those big shots who all nodded and smiled in unison "share the blame" for what happened at that time. But Hampton, as leader, had to make it good again, and he never did.

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As a public service union local president I have to say that Rae days didn’t seem quite so bad given what happened with Harris in charge.

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Tiresome argument, the same one trotted out to support voting Liberal instead of Tory. And, of course, the victims of the Rae government's betrayal are transformed into the stupid idiots who shot themselves in the foot. Well here's a tip: Sometimes, when you profoundly betray the trust of the people who have supported you and sustained you and made you what you are, they will endure a fair bit of pain just to teach you a lesson. And guess what - even when they were tired of the pain, and needed some shelter, they didn't come "home" to the NDP.

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Originally posted by Sinister:
I don't believe Tabuns, Horwath, Prue or Bisson has what is takes to become elected Premiere one day. Peggy Nash is the only (potential) candidate that could appeal beyond our core support.

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And he promised in subsequent election campaigns to make good on that broken promise? Sorry, I must have missed that.

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Yes he did. He was very clear about it. I was in Walkerton at Hamptons side the opening of the 2003 campaign. He was asked about it and was unequivical

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Tiresome argument, the same one trotted out to support voting Liberal instead of Tory. And, of course, the victims of the Rae government's betrayal are transformed into the stupid idiots who shot themselves in the foot. Well here's a tip: Sometimes, when you profoundly betray the trust of the people who have supported you and sustained you and made you what you are, they will endure a fair bit of pain just to teach you a lesson. And guess what - even when they were tired of the pain, and needed some shelter, they didn't come "home" to the NDP.

Understand the depth of the betrayal, and make it good again. A new leader with no fear of self-criticism and no fear of taking risks in the future can do that. This crop of candidates can't. That's another reason why Peggy Nash is needed - unless, of course, you folks have someone else who is untainted by that past.

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Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:

It seems you didn't bother to write what I wrote.

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You were there, I wasn't.

In 2003, Howard Hampton promised to set up a public, non-profit auto insurance scheme to compete with the private insurers. He estimated it would grab 30-35% of the market share.

Sorry, that's not what we did in Manitoba almost 40 years ago.

If he promised something better (or anything at all) in the 2007 campaign, I missed it. Please refresh my memory, I am no expert.

As for the social contract, I feel sorry for you and your partner having been victims of it. But the real victims were not individuals who lost a few bucks. They were the Ontario NDP (self-imposed) and the trade union movement (led down a garden path), and the population as a whole, which saw a government deny fundamental human rights to its citizens - the right to bargain collectively and to rely upon the freely-given signature of the government.

It showed the arrogance of a party leadership that took workers for granted, thinking that workers have nowhere else to go.

What an irony. In actual fact, it is the NDP which has nowhere else to go. Once it loses the trust of the working class, it will die an unlamented death.

Or the Liberals SPP and TILMA?

None of the current candidates was in Cabinet during that government. Three of the four weren't even in Caucus. One candidate was still in school.

Heck, you can even talk about the NDP government in that thread. Just relate it to the CURRENT leadership race and save the long debates about the positions taken by the departing leader of the third party in a government that was defeated 13 years ago for the special "Howard Hampton - history's greatest monster" thread.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: TCD ]

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Originally posted by TCD:
Can we please start a new thread entitled "Howard Hampton: hideous asshole and source of all evil"

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And then that same poster can tell us all about the piecemeal day care system they have in Quebec no thanks to Howard and the NDP.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by TCD:
... those of us interested in the thread topic can follow that without getting drawn into the upteenth thread about who was culpable for the shitshow NDP government?...

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Good idea.

The thread topic is, "Who Should Replace Howard Hampton?"

I've subtly provided my reply.

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Next federal convention ask John Rafferty whether Howard Hampton was a drag on his chances. Let me know if he doesn't break your nose.

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I never said that Hampton was DRAG on anyone's chances - but i think that Layton is a vastly bigger asset to the federal NDP than Hampton ever was to the Ontario NDP.

Look at the numbers on "best person for PM". Jack was consistently in strong second to Harper and would get over 20% of people in Ontario saying he would be the best PM. Hampton - even after ELEVEN years as ONDP leader was always in the lows teens as Best Premier and way behind both McGuinty and Tory.

For whatever reason, the guy just doesn't seem to be able to connect with the electorate.

In Toronto, people like Prue, Marchese, Tabuns and DiNovo coast in on their personal popularity and a party loyalty - I have to say that its pretty damn rare that during Ontario elections anyone in Toronto has anything (positive or negative) to say about Hampton - he's like the invisible man.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

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Originally posted by TCD:
None of the current candidates was in Cabinet during that government. One candidate was still in school.

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Originally posted by unionist:

Good idea.

The thread topic is, "Who Should Replace Howard Hampton?"

I've subtly provided my reply.

What's yours?

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Originally posted by TCD:
Horwath intrigues at this point, for the same reason you like Peggy Nash.

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