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Author Topic: "Brother" and "Sister"
Michelle
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posted 26 November 2003 11:25 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Does anyone else get hives at the whole "brothering" and "sistering" thing, when people who are not related to you call you brother or sister? For instance, it's a staple of Christianese, particularly among fundy groups. And I've noticed it among really involved union-types too.

I can't stand it. It just seems so icky-smarmy to me.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
clearview
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posted 26 November 2003 11:30 AM      Profile for clearview     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sister Michelle, is it the concept of brotherly/sisterly/were all one human family love you find distasteful, or just the words themselves?

I agree though, it freaks me out too. Though I would even go further and admit that I don't like people I hardly know referring to me as "friend". whenever I hear that I think they're going to ask me to do something for them.

[ 26 November 2003: Message edited by: clearview ]


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skdadl
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posted 26 November 2003 11:32 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sister, you have not seen the light!

Let me guide you.

No, Michelle, it doesn't bother me, but then I never had the church-version overdose. My church background is so repressed -- I mean, I can't tell you. Presbyterians never touch and just barely make eye contact, so I never knew that kind of brotherly/sisterly culture.

Shaking hands moves me to tears -- it seems so ... profound.

I've been briefly dipped in the union culture of brothers and sisters, and that always seemed very cheery to me. Union culture is so brisk, no? A Presbyterian can take that.

And feminists, of course, are committed to the sisterhood, although that is still often work, as we all know. Don't we.


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Mycroft_
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posted 26 November 2003 11:34 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, the unions could use "comrade" instead
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Michelle
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posted 26 November 2003 11:40 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Even when I use "sister" in a feminist context, part of me is being sardonic. I can't help it. I have no brothers and sisters (only child), so maybe the sibling symbolism eludes me or something. But I don't like it. Assuming a familial relationship that isn't there is just - weird to me.

On the other hand, I often get my son to call some of my very closest friends "Aunt(ie) so-and-so" and "Uncle so-and-so".


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vickyinottawa
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posted 26 November 2003 11:51 AM      Profile for vickyinottawa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I particularly like saying "Brother, you're out of order. Please turn the mike over to the sister behind you"


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andrean
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posted 26 November 2003 12:15 PM      Profile for andrean     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Catholics don't use the brother/sister thing, so I've never heard it used in a church context - must be a Protestant thing. The first time I heard it used in a union context, I just about started to cry, I was so moved.

I think that kind of language is extremely powerful and should be used with respect. Especially in a union setting, where disagreements are bound to arise, a regular reminder that you are brothers and sisters, that is, on the same team and with the same goal despite disagreeing, could be a useful thing.

I think anything that highlights our similarities and causes us to move past our differences is useful.


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4t2
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posted 26 November 2003 12:30 PM      Profile for 4t2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well we do use "brother" and "sister", but only for monks and nuns.

Go figure...


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Michelle
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posted 26 November 2003 01:08 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hee. Well, it's not just my experience with church stuff that has turned me off the brothering and sistering stuff. I mean, there are lots of Christianese sayings that are much more smarmy - "Your friend/sister/brother in Christ" being one of them. I used to read or hear stuff like that and think, "Who on earth SAYS this stuff?" As a church administrator, I kind of got used to it, being engulfed in it, but I never got over the ickitude. And I certainly never participated in it by signing notes like that, or by calling people "sister so-and-so". Brr.

Anyhow, I was just finding it funny that fundamentalist Christians and unionists have at least one similar cultural-language tradition.


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paxamillion
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posted 26 November 2003 01:15 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I think that kind of language is extremely powerful and should be used with respect.

I think what is more important is the we do treat those we claim to be our brothers and sisters as if they are our brothers and sisters. To me, that matters much more than what we call each other, or whether or not it's "icky" or "smarmy."


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Steve N
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posted 26 November 2003 02:14 PM      Profile for Steve N     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by paxamillion:

I think what is more important is the we do treat those we claim to be our brothers and sisters as if they are our brothers and sisters. To me, that matters much more than what we call each other, or whether or not it's "icky" or "smarmy."


Does that mean I can borrow their coolest clothes and pop them one when they take the last slice of dessert?


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Cougyr
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posted 26 November 2003 03:48 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm with Michelle. I'm not comfortable with that language either. While I can somewhat accept it in closed circles, I'm really repulsed by it in public; including the Catholic Church use of Brother, Sister, Father, Mother. Sorry, that language should be kept in-house. It gives me the creeps.
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paxamillion
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posted 26 November 2003 03:57 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve N:
Does that mean I can borrow their coolest clothes and pop them one when they take the last slice of dessert?

Dunno. Would you want them to pop you back?


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'lance
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posted 26 November 2003 03:58 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Well, the unions could use "comrade" instead.

I think British unions do. I suspect Canadian and American unions don't because it seems too Communist.

I'm with skdadl... sort of. I was raised in the Anglican church (is that Protestant? opinions differ), so no brother/sister stuff there, and no eye contact/touching. Which suited me fine.

Then we adopted the "new" liturgy, for use once a month or something, which involved the shaking of hands and "expressions of peace." I hated it, and on those rare occasions since 1982 when I've had to sit in on an Anglican service (I think there have been two: one wedding, one funeral), I've similarly found it cringeworthy.

No, I'm with Alan Bennett on this, as I am when he advises lay priests and lay readers not to try for "feeling" and "expression": "Scripture [or liturgy] should be read as if announcing the departure of trains," he says.

Contradiction Dep't: In my brief trade-union experience, like andrean, I found "brother" and "sister" rather moving, somehow. Briskness, as skdadl says, was the key.

[ 26 November 2003: Message edited by: 'lance ]


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paxamillion
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posted 26 November 2003 04:19 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I like "sharing the peace" with those around me at worship. It's really mostly just hand shakes.

However, I do feel uncomfortable with "Brother" and "Sister" talk of the kind mentioned earlier. While I think it could help to create a sense of equality and community, it takes a lot more than honorifics to do that.


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skdadl
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posted 26 November 2003 04:38 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have a confession to make. And this is tough for me, because my kind of Presbyterian (there are many kinds, God help us, and some of them are now so evangelical, you wouldn't believe, but that wasn't our kind ... anyway ...) is so utterly non-confessional, non-evangelical, you wouldn't believe, but:

Two things have happened in my life to loosen me up a bit on the open-expression-of-physical-affection front.

First, I have worked for a long time in a kind of huggy-kissy biz, and I have learned to hug and kiss. *whoo-ee!* Sometimes, I quite like it.

Second, I now spend part of each day among people to whom open expressions of physical affection -- like holding hands, eg -- mean everything. I mean: everything. Touch a shoulder, stroke a brow, and you have changed life ... for a day, anyway.

I am trying to change my repressed self in the face of what I see now, among the people I know best now.

I understand why so many would find cynical uses of expressions of affection to be icky ... But I think we also have to remember that our culture has been too hard on the vulnerable for too long, and that genuine affection, openly expressed, is still the first and last and easiest cure for most of us, for most of what ails us.

[ 26 November 2003: Message edited by: skdadl ]


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nonsuch
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posted 26 November 2003 04:48 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't mind someone using the words, even calling me 'sister' if they want to, but i can't say it myself, and i can never take it seriously. I think of some real-life siblings who haven't spoken to one another in years and i'm inclined to smirk - secretly, of course.
On the other hand, i like the language of protest songs. Have been known to join in and shed the odd tear. Makes no sense at all, but that's feeelings for you.

What does make me uncomfortable is semi-strangers running across a room to hug and kiss me. We hardly ever do that in our family. If we don't expect to meet again for several months, we might pat each other on the shoulder at parting.

What's also been making me a bit uncomfortable lately is standing in a circle and holding hands, at all kinds of gatherings. I see the reason and i'm willing to participate, but it takes some getting used to.


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'lance
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posted 26 November 2003 04:56 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
What's also been making me a bit uncomfortable lately is standing in a circle and holding hands, at all kinds of gatherings. I see the reason and i'm willing to participate, but it takes some getting used to.

I decided I'd have to soon put an end to my participation in the Green Party of Ontario (this was back in the late 80s) when a visiting Green from BC successfully encouraged us to hold hands in a circle and sing:

"We are the flow
we are the ebb
we are the weaver
we are the web..."


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nonsuch
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posted 26 November 2003 05:23 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
***sniff***

(Attention, Babble Authorities! In keeping with the new, more sensitive Babble, i demand a sniff, that's so booodiful smilie.)


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Michelle
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posted 26 November 2003 05:29 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Eww! Gak, that would make me nuts.

I don't mind kissing upon greeting these days, although I never did so before getting married unless it was close family, and even then it was more hugs than kisses. However, as I was soon to find out, Iranian friends kiss both cheeks upon greeting and I kind of got used to that, although I still find it a bit awkward.

And the funny thing is, I'm very free with displays of affection and terms of endearment with partners and with my son. I always say, "I love you" with them, and my son and I are constantly in contact with kisses and hugs. But with any other relatives, "I love you" is never said, only understood, and hugs and kisses happen only upon parting at the end of a visit.

So I'm not sure exactly what it is with the "brother" and "sister" thing. Maybe because it seems so fake to me. If I were at an NDP convention and someone I didn't know were to call me "sister", it's not like I would take offence. But it wouldn't feel sincere, because I wouldn't know the person (or would only be acquainted with them).


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 26 November 2003 05:32 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
***sniff***
(Attention, Babble Authorities! In keeping with the new, more sensitive Babble, i demand a sniff, that's so booodiful smilie.)

Thing was, I later re-encountered this person, and got to know her slightly, when I moved to Victoria.

Very nice and all, but I decided to keep my distance anyway.

As for the "sniff, that's so booodiful smilie," you could always try Crack's Smilies...

Here's a possible page.

("New, more sensitive Babble"? I never got that email... When was this decided, and why?!)

[ 26 November 2003: Message edited by: 'lance ]


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terra1st
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posted 26 November 2003 05:35 PM      Profile for terra1st     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
haven't had much experience with the christian thing...

but I do like the union use of the terms brother and sister...

and when people call me comrade, I smile a big smile (and sometimes giggle)

I really wish people would lighten up and use it (comrade) more often... I mean, how repressed do we have to be on the left, that we are so opposed to the term? there were tones of different expressions of communism, not to mention other strands of militant leftisms, and they've done a lot of good in north america (on to ottawa, free speech battles, medicare, and the work of ocap, etc.) it's kind of silly for us to be so shy of left ideas...

my 2 cents


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nonsuch
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posted 26 November 2003 07:48 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Terra1st, you're quite right. Some of us older, more reserved (repressed... whatever) types just need a little time to get with the program. In fact, if i'm on the outside, watching, these rituals look attractive. Nice; more like how we ought to be. I approve; i just find it uncomfortable to put myself out where i have never been before. It doesn't come naturally, so i feel both self-conscious and insincere.

This does not apply to intimate relationships. Like Michelle, i have no problem hugging, tickling, petting and kissing the SO, in private or semi-public. I have no problem with lots of physical contact with small children one loves. Or cats and dogs, for that matter.
Feeelings are irrational, that's all.

quote:
("New, more sensitive Babble"? I never got that email... When was this decided, and why?!)

Well, it's not exactly official policy; more like something i've observed in the last couple of months. As for the smilie, you ought to hold a referendum. Also try something that means "I'm so sorry i've offended you!"
No bloody way am i going shopping for them!

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Kevin
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posted 26 November 2003 07:59 PM      Profile for Kevin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For the first time I was called "Brother" at the BC NDP convention and it immediately struck me as an expression of respect, and really meant a lot to me.

In my opinion, it's a powerful way to show respect to someone you might not know but can feel comfortable in the fact that you're all working for the same cause.


From: Simon Fraser University | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged

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