1) More effective wind turbines
2) next-generation gas/electric Hybrid Vehicles
3) Wave Energy Buoy
4) Microbial fuel cell
5) Organic Solar Cells
6) Hydrogen powered cars
7) geothermal heating/cooling solutions
8) solar
9) local power generation (hydro - not really "alternative" power is it?)
10) nuclear (again - not really an "alternative" power source, is it?)
11) human power
12) Boron hydrides, or boranes
13) biofuels

I'll try to keep this list accurate. Hope we can add some more.

[ 23 October 2005: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]

alternative energy sources *ought to include* what can be saved. Not a source strictly speaking and yet in a way it is.

So urban design, architecture, the structure of retailing, public vs private transport and more all come into the picture IMO. As a matter of fact I published a little article in 1982 making this point. (To preserve my anonimity I removed my name and the name of the paper where it was published)

Energy Conservation: New Source Of Supply

Quebec will experience a decade of no growth in energy consumption and there won’t be any supply problems, maintains Guy Joron now a director on the board of Hydro Quebec. As former provincial energy minister and author of the 1978 White Book on energy he is among the more knowledgeable people in this field. And—unlike many other forecasters—he was right in his pre­dictions. “We were pretty much on the nose as far as energy demand would evolve. Maybe just slightly over, but that was the result of compromises with others from the Energy Department and Hydro Quebec, etc. On a personal basis I've always been on the low side of our estimates and these are the figures that are being realized now,” he said in a recent interview.

According to him, forecasters who continued until recently to project too high rates of growth in energy demand, now have to admit that they underestimated the effect of rising prices on con­sumer behaviour. Lower consumption was mainly due to higher pri­ces. Predicting no growth in energy con­sumption doesn't mean we're going to have permanent recession or depres­sion, he states. It's just that we'll become increasingly efficient in our use of energy. People are price-conscious now and they'll become even more so and hence, will waste less and less. That, coupled with other factors such as low population growth, the effects of urban planning and the increasing importance of urban mass transit will lead to lower per capita energy con­sumption in the decades ahead.

Indeed, Quebec has a long way to go in that direction. For instance, Sweden — a country with similar climate and comparable economic structure — consumes, on a per capita basis, about half the energy we use here.

Forecasting is tricky business' says Joron. One illustration testifying to that fact is a statement Hydro Quebec's for­mer president Robert Boyd made only four years ago when he said: “Quebec will definitely have to go to some sort of nuclear energy before 1990.'' Recently Hydro revised one of their own forecasts which originally called for the installation of another 20,000 MW of hydroelectric generating capacity between now and the year 2000. This has been reduced to 16,000 MW even though their own estimates indicate only 10 000 MW will be needed. Plans for any further nuclear plants have been deferred to the 21st century. (Quebec's nuclear plants include Gentilly I — which produced next to no electricity and is shut down permanently — and Gentilly II, expec­ted to enter commercial production in 1983 at an approximate cost of $1.36 billion which is more than twice the ori­ginal estimate.)

Even though global energy consump­tion may not increase in the near future, the make-up of supply will change dramatically. Hydro, which now provides around 27 % of the total (4 years ago it was 21 %) will account for about 40 % ten years from now. If this happens— and Joron is quite confident it will— another prediction of the White Book will have been correct.

It would be interesting to see if Joron was indeed right. Maybe some day I'll check it out.

I have always maintained that conservation ought to be the starting point

You might also want to have a look at this graph and see how the energy consumption in German houses has decreased over time (I'm sure without lowering the quality of life)

http://www.scanhome.ie/passive/energydemand.gif

[ 23 October 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]

quote:

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Originally posted by VanLuke:
boom boom

alternative energy sources *ought to include* what can be saved. Not a source strictly speaking and yet in a way it is.

So urban design, architecture, the structure of retailing, public vs private transport and more all come into the picture IMO.

---

Maybe an analogy to computers illustrates that, The hardware may be almost the same but apparently the latest Intel Xeon processor 'stinks' vs the equivalent AMD CPU doing the same job with less energy.

[ 23 October 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]

quote:

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Originally posted by VanLuke:
I understand that I just feel it's important to mention this in these discussions

[ 23 October 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by VanLuke:
I always seem to have second thoughts too and edit my posts while you respond.

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The one point I do try to make is that whatever the alternative energy advocated, there are general challenges.
Take the conservation example. I love it, but the various barriers aren't unique. Capitalism and the requirement to consume increasing amounts is one, the US's response if a large number of nations decide to essentially opt out of a system that has primarily benefitted them is another.

quote:

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did you actually read the long post on the other thread?
It was mainly addressed to you

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Kimon was fond of pointing out that it was capitalist enterprises that made and sold the posters.

In the previous thread I talked about a lot of large corporations as well.

quote:

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Originally posted by VanLuke:
Capitalism is the problem IMO

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quote:

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Originally posted by ToadProphet:
There are issues, of course.[/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by VanLuke:

Of course I was simplifying

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Oh, let's let the thread develop as it will. I'm fascinated by this discussion. I'd say 'anything goes' except I don't wanna be flamed.

edited to add: I've been outdoors the past hour or so; very high winds, the sea is beginning to move (heave) a bit. Where's our windmills? where's our wave generators?

(I'm wondering if there's a way to produce energy from the cold - we've lots of cold weather here)

[ 23 October 2005: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:

I've been outdoors the past hour or so; very high winds, the sea is beginning to move (heave) a bit. Where's our windmills?

I'm wondering if there's a way to produce energy from the cold - we've lots of cold weather here

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Lucky you being near the sea. I'm a land lubber but have always loved the feeling of smallness I get when I'm near the sea.

I remember crossing the North Atlantic in Oct 1975 and we hit a massive storm with HUGE waves. I loved watching them.

I have no engineering knowledge but since heat pumps can be reversed, i.e. heating in the winter and cooling in the summer, it wouldn't surprise me if one couldn't use the cold. I don't have the time right now as I'm doing some boring work (or supposed to when I'm not posting ) but I think I'll look into that.

You got wind, you got energy!

You have any use for something with a lot of torque? You know how to weld or you have a buddy who does? Why don't you build a Savonius rotor? It's simple. An oil drum cut in halves lengthwise, welded in opposite directions to an old drive shaft and somehow securely anchored (probably the most difficult part) and you got your own energy generator. With a little research you might be able to work out how to adapt this to chop your wood or saw the logs your heat your home with. Wouldn't it beat the noise of the chainsaw?

It shouldn't be that difficult to change the rotary motion of the Savonius rotor into and up and down one for chopping wood.

I posted an image (or a link) on the other thread. Or go to google advanced image search and search for Savonius rotor

Just a suggestion ....

Go the 29th post on the other thread and check out the pictures of Savonius rotors on the bottom of the post.

This gets you there. (Bottom five links)

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=31&t=000472#000028

Here's a crude plan:
http://www.iwr.de/wind/tech/bilder/VERT_ROT.JPG

[ 23 October 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]

quote:

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Originally posted by byzantine:
Of course, the former USSR had ridiculously awful environmental practices as well

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quote:

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Originally posted by byzantine:
Here's my pet idea, admittedly with some bugs to work out.

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USA, China (surely nobody considers them socialist here?) and India

[ 23 October 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]

Consider a move here, we could use your ideas!

quote:

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Originally posted by byzantine:
[QB] Most people don't realize the (now)income tax system can be a vastly powerful tool for implimenting social policy. ]

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Yes indeed and our Prime Minister (when he was Finance Minister wrote a retroactive law to exempt his company from most taxes.

Don't forget the GST and the income tax reform of Mulroney (not reversed of course by the Liberals) that put much more of the tax burden on the lower income earners either.

And don't your ears ache with the never ending droning of "tax reduction" tax reduction". It never seems enough for the rich.

quote:

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:

Consider a move here, we could use your ideas!
[/QB]

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If it wasn't so coooooold.

I still remember winters in Montreal and the North Shore must be worse.

quote:

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Originally posted by VanLuke:
No! They aren't going to use the tax system to decrease their profits

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quote:

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Originally posted by Contrarian:
... small-scale solutions that individuals can choose.[/QB]

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An important point.

Here's a link to "Consumerism another form of substance abuse" I just came across. It looks interesting. (Haven't had a chance yet to read much there.)

quote:

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Wonder why the world is angry at Americans? Each U.S. consumer devours as much as three Germans, six Mexicans, 14 Chinese, 38 Indians, or 168 Bangladeshis ... worse still, we waste more than half of the energy we consume -- that's scandalous! One by one, a household or a company at a time, we must do better, starting TODAY.

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http://www.solarnet.org/SUNhome.htm

quote:

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First Step to Energy Sanity: Conserve!

by Michael Potts

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http://www.solarnet.org/Berta.htm

Berta's kilowatts:
http://www.solarnet.org/BertaK.gif

There is lots more at the site. Check it out.

[ 23 October 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]

from: http://www.solarnet.org/SUNhome.htm

quote:

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Originally posted by VanLuke:
Conservation again:

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I came out as a very conscious ecological being. However, much of it is due to the rotten financial situation I'm in. I would eat meat more often and maybe fly occasionally.

CATEGORY GLOBAL HECTARES
FOOD 1.5
MOBILITY 0
SHELTER 0.6
GOODS/SERVICES 0.5
TOTAL FOOTPRINT 2.6

Not bad, eh?

Trying to feel good about my lack of resources.

quote:

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Originally posted by VanLuke:
Nice site. I had problems with the meat (which I eat almost never) egg question. (I eat eggs infrequently and this choice doesn't exist)

I came out as a very conscious ecological being. However, much of it is due to the rotten financial situation I'm in. I would eat meat more often and maybe fly occasionally.

CATEGORY GLOBAL HECTARES
FOOD 1.5
MOBILITY 0
SHELTER 0.6
GOODS/SERVICES 0.5
TOTAL FOOTPRINT 2.6

Not bad, eh?

Trying to feel good about my lack of resources.

---

Now I feel guilty - 4.1. I fly a lot and live alone.

edited: I made an error wrt my living arrangements, and food. Here is my revised score:
FOOD 3.3
MOBILITY 0.2
SHELTER 0.8
GOODS/SERVICES 0.8
TOTAL FOOTPRINT 5.1

That's better than 15, my previous rating.

[ 23 October 2005: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]

quote:

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Wealth, not poverty, is the problem

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That's not the choice I would postulate.

Poverty sucks.

But then again, I'm not really poor I just don't have any money. (I can't remember from which movie that line is)

There is some truth in it though because poverty is not just the absence of money but a whole cultural thing.

Btw, I live alone too but in a tiny place.

Maybe you have a mansion.

quote:

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I'm in a rental duplex - why should this give me a higher score?

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Maybe because of the amount of space you occupy?

quote:

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Originally posted by VanLuke:

That's not the choice I would postulate.

Poverty sucks.

But then again, I'm not really poor I just don't have any money. (I can't remember from which movie that line is)

There is some truth in it though because poverty is not just the absence of money but a whole cultural thing.

Btw, I live alone too but in a tiny place.

Maybe you have a mansion.

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Tiny apartment too, but in a smaller city.

quote:

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
Originally posted by VanLuke:
Maybe because of the amount of space you occupy?

Of all the choices in terms of square footage, I scored the second lowest (200-250 square metres) just as a guess - I have no idea what the exact measurement is. This is an apartment built on to the side of a house. It's comfortable, but not large.

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200-250 is the second highest

Edited to add - 1 sq. metre is about 10 sq. feet apparently

[ 23 October 2005: Message edited by: ToadProphet ]

200-250 is the second highest

You got me thinking about your question if one can get energy out of cold.

Hold your hand on the backside of your fridge and you feel the heat being extracted if it's running.

I'm sure that consumes energy since there are Energuide ratings for fridges.

However, if you go below the frost line (in Montreal 3 or 4 feet IIRC) the temperature is fairly constant all year round. It wouldn't be worth it from a financial point of view, but if you buried pipes filled with freon, or some other gas, it would pick up the relative heat from the ground temperature of about 38 degrees Fahrenheit IIRC and heat your home if the pipe passes through your house and goes through a heat exchanger. By reversing the flow you have an air conditioner in the summer. There are commercial versions of such heat pumps.

How far down would you have to go on the North Shore to get to constant non freezing temperatures? Probably a bit deeper than in Montreal. So you wouldn't get energy out of the cold per se but depending on the season you could extract some useful energy.

I'll edit this post as soon as I find the link to a Hawaiian site where there is a large scale project extracting energy from the ocean. One methid is to use ammonia and you could probably use that instead of the environmentally hostile freon. (I just didn't remember the name when I typed this earlier)

quote:

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In the closed-cycle system, heat transferred from the warm surface sea water causes a working fluid (such as ammonia, which boils at a temperature of about -28°F at atmospheric pressure), to turn to vapor.

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http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/otec_hi.html#anchor356606

Have a look at the tremendous number of energy related links on this site. It's an excellent one.

I do not think burying pipes in your backyard is practical for your location (or maybe elsewhere too)but it might interest you.

I read about this stuff on that site years ago and seem to remember that the economics are not proven and that it is probably too expensive. But if oil prices go higher (or better when they go higher) this might very well become financially feasible.

One problem I believe is also that no data is available re the longevity of the equipment, which makes it kind of impossible to determnine if it's profitable.

[ 23 October 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
Originally posted by ToadProphet:

200-250 is the second highest

Sonuvagun! I'll have to it over. With my glasses on, next time.

---

I was thinking of this myself, got the idea from Chester The Prairie Shark who wrote about geothermal heating/cooling solutions. I have a Popular Mechanics article on this, will try to hunt it down.

For instance this one:
http://www.solarhouse.com/index2.htm

Renwable energy businesses:
http://energy.sourceguides.com/businesses/index.shtml

[ 23 October 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]

http://tinyurl.com/9kld2

From a google ad:

http://www.budgetheating.com/Default.asp?Redirected=Y

[ 23 October 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]

if you ever build your own place consider this idea from me (when I still had dreams of building my own house)

Dig really deep so that you have two levels below ground. Fill the lowest level with washed gravel. Good insulation should also be installed. Install a dry air solar system on the roof inclined to get the optimum of solar radiation when you need it most. The solar system is passive except for a few fans, which circulate the heat through the lower level. It will warm the gravel and the heat should be preserved for a long time. (Inuslated and below ground at constant temperature) When you need the heat open the valves for the ducts to the rest of the house and a few small fans should heat the house.

I'm no engineer but what do you think?

[ 23 October 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]

quote:

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Originally posted by VanLuke:
Dig really deep so that you have two levels below ground. Fill the lowest level with washed gravel. Good insulation should also be installed. Install a dry air solar system on the roof inclined to get the optimum of solar radiation when you need it most. The solar system is passive except for a few fans, which circulate the heat through the lower level. It will warm the gravel and the heat should be preserved for a long time. (Inuslated and below ground at constant temperature) When you need the heat open the valves for the ducts to the rest of the house and a few small fans should heat the house.

I'm no engineer but what do you think?

[ 23 October 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]

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So many promising things ToadProphet, aren't there?

[ 23 October 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]

I think I'm too tired to think!

Off to bed, soon. Will reply tomorrow afternoon.

quote:

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Originally posted by VanLuke:
It's been done successfully in many locations

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
Originally posted by VanLuke:
I'm no engineer but what do you think?

I think I'm too tired to think!

Off to bed, soon. Will reply tomorrow afternoon.

(actually feel feverish, may be a touch of the 'flu)

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quote:

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Originally posted by ToadProphet:

Yup... took a weekend course on it. Incredibly quick and easy to do.

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http://tinypic.com/evcnkh.jpg

If you like it there are another 13 of this eclipse here (and lots of other galleries too):

http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagegallery/igviewer.php?imgid=3634&gid=267&index=0

[ 24 October 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]

I'm no engineer but what do you think?

Question: Is there ANY alternative that can match kerosene as a jet fuel?

Conjecture: I think not, and therein lies a big part of the problem in converting to alternative energy. The big militaries of the world all want this elixir of air superiority.

So the petroleum industry will live on. Kerosene is the pearl, and the rest, the diesel, the petrochemicals for plastics, whatever...in a way they subsidize the acquisition of the kerosene for use in jets.

quote:

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Originally posted by mimsy:
Good thread, though I've only scanned it real quick.

Question: Is there ANY alternative that can match kerosene as a jet fuel?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
[QB]?

I sketched it out and looked at it, and I think all in all, it's a good plan.

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Actually I still have a scrapbook from almost thirty years ago where I started "designing" (in quotes because I have absolutely no qualifications for desining)my "dream" house.

I also think - though do not know- the heat harrvested in the summer would mostly stay in this deep basement because of the constant temperature "down there" and the insulation.

quote:

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
How high are gas prices here? I asked the attendant for $5.00 worth of gas; he farted and gave me a receipt.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mimsy:
[QB]Good thread, though I've only scanned it real quick.

Question: Is there ANY alternative that can match kerosene as a jet fuel?

Conjecture: I think not, and therein lies a big part of the problem in converting to alternative energy. ...]

---

Nobody suggested on these threads that the oil industry will *not* live on (at least for the time that there is still some oil in the ground that can be extracted - likely to be quite some time yet IMO).

Nobody suggested that one could fly an airplane with hydrogen or windmills (although little ones have been flown with solar pannels IIRC). Also please note the post by ToadProphetabout this.

What has been suggested over and over again is that *there is no single answer* (much depending on location) and that "all the solutions" have not been found.

Maybe you should have taken a little more time reading this thread anth preceding one.

Here's one example of a solar powered plane:

Here's another one:

And yet another one:

.

[ 25 October 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]

What this got to do with jet fuel is beyond me.

[ 25 October 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Southlander:
[QB]Sorry but you can't get energy out of cold unless you have somewhere hot to gather it from.
]

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You obviously haven't looked at the Hawaiian test project I linked above.

The freezing point of water is indeed "quite hot" for ammonium

Here's the link again:

http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/otec_hi.html#anchor356606

You also don't seem to have heard of heat pumps, which can extract energy from temperatures in the ground a little above freezing to heat homes.

quote:

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The back of the fridge is hot because the fridge is working to remove heat from the inside.

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And yet you do know that 'heat' is quite relative, don't you? Inside my fridge it's about 36 degrees (or so) Fahrenheit and yet the freon (or whatever gas they use nowadays) releases heat in the back of the fridge.

It's all relative

[ 26 October 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]

quote:

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Originally posted by nister:
[QB] ...the article I referred to popped up.

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As far as I can tell it has nothing to do with jet fuel If I missed something I'd like you to point it out to me with a link because I'm interested in this.

Surely it doesn't take a lot of navigational skills to copy/paste an url from a website tot his thread.

quote:

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...The Canadian Renewable Energy Alliance (CanREA) is an alliance of Canadian civil society organizations from the non-profit or voluntary sector that hold a common interest in promoting a global transition to energy conservation and efficiency and use of low-impact renewable energy...

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quote:

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Renewable Solutions conference at COP11– CanREA will co-host an international conference on renewable energy and climate change December 1st and 2nd 2005 in Montreal. The conference will coincide with the first Meeting of the Parties to the Kyoto Protocol to be held in Montreal November 28 to December 9.

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