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Author Topic: article on "whiteness" and palestine solidarity.
terra1st
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posted 19 December 2003 01:04 PM      Profile for terra1st     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
hey...

there's a really good article (written from an anarchist perspective) on palestine solidarity work and white priviledge here http://www.onwardnewspaper.org/archives/2-2002/solomon.html

What I'm asking is kind of a tangent from the article, but this article made me think on that level so here it is:

Is the amazing rise in palestine solidarity work due to the fact that it's easier to point out (and confront) injustice, genocide, and the continuing effects of imperialism "over there" than here at home?

Is our whiteness what keeps us working so hard at anti-imperialism in the middle east, and not the continued de-facto apartied here?

I tend to think so...

(apartied is mostly defined by personal liberty and access to resources, first nations folk have little - if any - of either)

let me know what you think of my questions, and the article in general.


From: saskatoon | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 19 December 2003 01:29 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Funny that this oh-so-pc writer uses the rather offensive term "goyim". I don't much like the term "white privilege", would prefer to talk about racism and discrimination against people of other colours and backgrounds.

It is indeed sad that the systematic racism against our Aboriginal population does not get more notice.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
terra1st
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posted 19 December 2003 03:04 PM      Profile for terra1st     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
what is the history of the term "goy"? I have not heard of it before reading this article...
From: saskatoon | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
spatrioter
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posted 19 December 2003 03:06 PM      Profile for spatrioter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have a Jewish friend who calls me a 'goy'. I never much liked being labelled like that, but he insists that it's not derogatory.
From: Trinity-Spadina | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 19 December 2003 03:12 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It doesn't bother me. In the summer when "Jews for Jesus" was in town, and Jews for Judaism was countering them, I was joking around about how we non-Jews who don't like the Jews for Jesus tactics could be called "Goys for Judaism". Then lagatta suggested Shiksas for Judaism to me.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 19 December 2003 03:20 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Shiksa is DEFINITELY derogatory . But fine if we Shiksen use it, eh?
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 19 December 2003 03:23 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Shiksen -

Word association: I read that and suddenly I started thinking,

"On Dasher, on Dancer, on Prancer and Vixen,
On Comet, on Cupid, on Goyim and Shiksen."

Nevermind; carry on.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 19 December 2003 03:27 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't mind being referred to as one of the goyim, but what really pisses me off are the number of assumptions the writer of the article makes about "whiteness", "class" and "WASP" privilege. She talks about solidarity, and then proceeds to take a crap all over those whose politics aren't radical enough for her, or those she perceives as having too much money or perceived social position to be radical enough. Or just those she perceives as exploiting the Palestinian issue to boost their own activist cred.

Fuck off with the identity politics, eh?

The arrogance and condescension in this woman's article are precisely the antithesis of solidarity. Solidarity isn't about approval or getting an exact match for your own personal politics. Solidarity is about coming together under the banner of a common cause, despite each others real or perceived shortcomings and differences, because many voices accomplish more than a few.

This woman's approval, I do not need.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 19 December 2003 03:34 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As Rebecca says, the article is annoying, "more radical than thou" but with all her stilted jargon, the author does make a couple of good points on the greater risks for "non-white" demonstrators (or other groups the police doesn't like, and how offensive buring Stars of David (despite it being the flag of the Israel government) can be for activists of Jewish descent. It is the context of her excruciating political correctness that made the "goyim" expression seem strange.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 19 December 2003 03:42 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree that she does make some good points. It's just her attitude and all the freakin' PC buzzwords that is driving me bonkers.

Anyone who is conversant enough in the "radical" jargon to understand the point she's making, doesn't need a lecture on what anti-semitism really means, nor do they need someone trotting out bell hooks to make a point about Otherness. And those who might learn something from understanding what peoples are actually semites, or the wisdom of bell hooks, will be so totally alienated by Solomon's self-righteous identity politics that they'll tune out what is relevent and worthwhile in her article.

Very aggravating. I do wish people on the radical left would climb out of their elitist box every once in a while to see how regular people receive information. What on earth's the point of isolating yourself by such rubbish?


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 19 December 2003 03:45 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's an interesting article, terra1st, and it covers a lot of territory. Thanks for the link.

Once I got over a little initial irritation at some of Solomon's rhetoric, I found myself nodding, point by point. She, of course, is writing from New York and her experience of activism there, which I suspect is both more subtly differentiated and, sometimes, more dangerous than what we know here.

Still, you're right, and she is right, to question any activist who goes full steam ahead on any kind of liberation issue without first listening to and learning from the people whose liberation is in question. And for sure we are not immune to that kind of problem in Canada.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 19 December 2003 03:48 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, hi, guys. Hadn't read that last exchange before I posted.


quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

On Comet, on Cupid, on Goyim and Shiksen."




From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
terra1st
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posted 19 December 2003 03:58 PM      Profile for terra1st     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
with all due respect RW, that article was from an anarchist paper (written by an anarchist, for anarchists)...

I posted it here for the conversation about (ideally) whiteness and solidarity work with people here and in the middle east. I think that the priviledge that white (especially radical) activists have makes it easier to identify the colonialism and racism in the middle east as opposed to here...

If we put so much work into solidarity with first nations people, we'd have to examine our priviledge, and think about our role in perpetuating colonialism (apartied, racism, etc) here.

from there I thought someone may have had a neat insight into the (un)workings of this...

So the writing style of the article is not that pertinent, she was writing to an audience that would appreciate it, and get it. she may not have been intending that the average soccer mom would read her article (if she did, I doubt that she would have used that many references to the black block... )

oh, well... worth a shot.

[ 19 December 2003: Message edited by: terra1st ]


From: saskatoon | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 19 December 2003 04:24 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well terra1st, I'm not taking issue with those points in particular, I'm expressing an opinion on the kind of narrow and elitist point of view Solomon represents and the shots she takes at others who may be less radical than one who must profess her radicalism through the number of labels she can apply to herself.
quote:
she may not have been intending that the average soccer mom would read her article (if she did, I doubt that she would have used that many references to the black block... )
What do you mean?

From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
4t2
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posted 19 December 2003 04:42 PM      Profile for 4t2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Interesting article. However she does use the word praxis*, which is a well-known code word for "it's not really politics, it's an awfully clever sociological experiment". ;-) ;-)

Nice that she referred to Bell Hooks (or bell hooks), though - a very good writer and, in my opinion, fairly clear and straightforward...most of the time.

On the central point - well, it's hardly a new one, is it? It's always easy to play at being Che rather than look closer to home - although of course it's not an acceptable alternative to only look** at local struggles. Generally I think the more over-the-top the identification..the wrapping of oneself in the flag (or, in the case of an American girl I once met, wearing green-white-and-orange braces as recogniation of the "Irish struggle"...eeugh), the less thought that has gone into the history and theory of the issue.

On the actual Palestinian issue, it's always worth noting that the UN has only seen fit to recognise one Permanent Observer Mission*** of displaced/stateless/oppressed peoples, and that's what was the PLO at the time. Although I agree that having that voice in New York is very important, I don't accept that there are two types of struggles in the world: the Palestinian cause, and "everyone else". But that's, I suppose, a result of the strong support of some other UN member states for that cause.

* see also "paradigm" and, my favourite, "epistimological", as dead giveaways!

** eek, split infinitive, but won't work the other way - though there are things that are worst than it - this is something up with which I will not put....)

*** the other POMs are the groups like the EU, la Francophonie, and the African Union, which are associations of other states, groups like the Red Cross and Inter-Parliamentary Union, and the Vatican (and their status is a good argument for another day...). Switzerland used to have a mission before they joined. But there are no other inchoate or potential states on the list.


From: Beyond the familiar... | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 19 December 2003 04:43 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Though I'm not an anarchist, I'm certainly not a suburban "soccer mom" either. Being anarchist, Marxist or whatever is not an excuse for wooden writing. There have been many great writers in the anarchist or libertarian tradition.

I do take issue with the idea of "privilege" unless we are talking about the truly privileged in society, and would prefer to speak of discrimination and oppression (or multiple oppressions, as you will). It is not due to political disagreements with anarchist thought per se.

As I said, her article does contain some useful insights. Thanks for posting it and I hope you contribute a lot more to rabble and babble.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 19 December 2003 04:57 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why not "to look only at," 4t2?

Tsk, tsk.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
terra1st
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posted 19 December 2003 05:05 PM      Profile for terra1st     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree with you fully on your first and last points, lagatta, though I think it is crutial to understand and reflect on what some call "priviledge"...

RW, I know what you mean when you say that the author takes shots at others, however I'd suggest that if anything the author is taking shots at people who mis-appropriate cultural symbols while trying to be "more radical"...

I didn't perceive the author to argue for being more or less radical, just realizing what was appropriate or inappropriate when partaking in an action... Maybe I should re-read it.

and as for the hooks quote, you're quite right that it wasn't needed to make the point... My guess is that the author included it 'cause if you or I say something, some leftists might shrug it off; If we quote chomsky or hooks, they will take it seriously. it is sad but all too common in the left.

PS... I'll gladly keep posting here. glad some of you liked the content of the article, if not the writing style.


From: saskatoon | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged

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