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(Boston) A study of the effects of peyote on American Indians found no evidence that the hallucinogenic cactus caused brain damage or psychological problems among people who used it frequently in religious ceremonies.

In fact, researchers from Harvard-affiliated McLean Hospital found that members of the Native American Church performed better on some psychological tests than other Navajos who did not regularly use peyote. A 1994 federal law allows roughly 300,000 members of the Native American Church to use peyote as a religious sacrament.

The five-year study set out to find scientific proof for the Navajos' belief that the substance, which contains the hallucinogen mescaline, is not hazardous to their health even when used frequently.

[...]

The researchers note that their study draws a clear distinction between illicit and religious use of peyote. They did not rule out the possibility that other hallucinogens, such as LSD, may be harmful.

"In comparison to LSD, mescaline is described as more sensual and perceptual and less altering of thought and sense of self," they wrote, adding that peyote does not seem to produce "flashbacks" the same way that LSD apparently does.

The project was funded in part by the National Institute on Drug Abuse, which is part of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. A NIDA spokeswoman would not comment on the study.

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Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Of course she wouldn't comment; it flies in the face of all their "war on drugs" hysteria and bullshit.

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[ 04 November 2005: Message edited by: Makwa ]

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I hope that this does not attract people who want to experiment with Peyote for non-sacred use.

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Why not? Go ahead and experiment away. Recreational drugs like mescaline are fun and MOSTLY harmless if not overdone.

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Originally posted by PEIguy:
Why not? Go ahead and experiment away. Recreational drugs like mescaline are fun and MOSTLY harmless if not overdone.

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Originally posted by Makwa:
Because FN people don't consider these medicines to be 'recreational' but to be sacred, and not to be played with.

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How can a cactus plant be sacred? It's a plant that was in the desert long before there were any humans around. If someone (non-amerindian) wants to experiment with peyote, why shouldn't they (drug laws aside)? How does a non-amerindian's use of peyote hurt an amerindian.

It's the same with gay's and marriage. How does a gay marriage affect the marriage of a straight?

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Because FN people don't consider these medicines to be 'recreational' but to be sacred, and not to be played with.

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So they get to decide for everyone?

The Native American Church: Come for the peyote, stay for the salvation.

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In fact, researchers from Harvard-affiliated McLean Hospital found that members of the Native American Church performed better on some psychological tests than other Navajos who did not regularly use peyote.

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Hee! I love it. What awesome results. Can't you just see the looks on anti-drug activists' faces reading those results?

I'm suddenly getting a flashback to the WKRP episode where Johnny Fever does that on-air experiment where they test his reflexes after successive drinks and they keep getting faster with each drink. I'm thinking the NIDA spokeswoman might be feeling the same kind of consternation as the person administering the test to Johnny. Not that I'm comparing drinking to using Peyote. I just imagined the looks on the faces of the anti-drug types to this news, and suddenly that episode came to mind.

So, is the use of Peyote legal in the US? Will this affect policy there in a positive way? Hope so.

[ 04 November 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by Michelle:

Not that I'm comparing drinking to using Peyote.

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The study was conducted among Navajos in the Southwest by McLean psychiatrist John Halpern. It compared test results for 60 church members who have used peyote at least 100 times against those for 79 Navajos who do not regularly use peyote and 36 tribe members with a history of alcohol abuse but minimal peyote use.

Those who had abused alcohol fared worse on the tests than the church members, according to the study.

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I'll tell you, the only time I get down on people using marijuana is when they sneak off and do it before accompanying me to the movies, or to dinner, or to the grocery store, or to funerals, or to plenary sessions at conferences etc, etc....then I've got to endure several hours of stoner behaviour, and that is really not as fun for the non-stoned as it would appear to be.

[ 04 November 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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Originally posted by BATMAN:
How can a cactus plant be sacred? It's a plant that was in the desert long before there were any humans around. If someone (non-amerindian) wants to experiment with peyote, why shouldn't they (drug laws aside)? How does a non-amerindian's use of peyote hurt an amerindian...Denying non-amerindian's the use of peyote, simply because of their race, is racism plain and simple.

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Originally posted by Makwa:
Oh boo hoo. FN people are criticising you and ruining your high. OK - we believe that within some 20,000 years of existence with these 'plants' (and we do not make a distinction between the spirituality of humans, plants, earth and animals) we have developed, with some guidance from ancestors and prophets, a particular sacred relationship. Profane it if you must, but merely be aware that you lose respect in the eyes of FN people by doing so, if that is the least bit important to you. In general, the respect of FN people has been completely insignificant to the dominant culture.

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Originally posted by Rambler:
You make it sound as if every Native American thinks the peyote plant is as sacred as these Natives from the southwestern US do, even those here in Canada who had never even seen the plant in 20,000 years. If we make light of a native religion, we lose respect from all natives?

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Originally posted by ronb:
Just checking Makwa, is it the non-sacred use of all mescaline derivatives that is objectionable, or just Peyote? And what about tobacco abuse?

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
Personally, I think pot is something you have to do regularly to enjoy...that's been my experience, anyway.

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A comment on something from the original article:

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"In comparison to LSD, mescaline is described as more sensual and perceptual and less altering of thought and sense of self," they wrote, adding that peyote does not seem to produce "flashbacks" the same way that LSD apparently does.

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A best-selling Author for 30 years, Carlos Castaneda inspired millions to break free from social dogma, fueling controversy over his work's authenticity and assertions of perceiving non-ordinary reality

This sort of details the history of peyote in context of this religious practise?

Well who of age here has not heard of attempts by people to track some of this "inspirational wisdom," that can only come from drug induced states?

Trust me I do not ever want to glorify drug inducement, because good common sense needs all our reserves in order to deal in context and appropriatenss life offers now.

Smart a** ed comments by the "youngers," really cannot be added here, because they have no basis with which to compare life in general( they lived hand and mouth off mom and pop) so could they see how responsibility would be more then, run to your local pot dealer. Pay for a bag, without realizing, it could cause havoc to the heavy ordeals of life and dependancy on feeling good.

How long do these deep perceptions continue after you write such warm and glowing introspections about the depth of perception?

You needed your mind for this. You needed stability. You needed the hisorical forbears who had traversed these deep consciousnes tracks, where the mind could venture and safely come back and deal with altering and destructive illusion perpetuated, by the undercurrents of one's own makeup.

They had to have a clear framework, where they could see the effect of consciousness changes that would be and could be induced by such drug states. The point was, "altered states" and such looks at isolation chambers and such, were considered in context of this free drug induced state. How would consciousness be changed without the effect of such drugs?

Dr. Timothy Francis Leary (October 22, 1920 – May 31, 1996) was an American writer, psychologist, campaigner for psychedelic drug research and use, 60s counterculture icon and computer software designer. He is most famous as a proponent of the therapeutic and spiritual benefits of LSD. During the 1960s, he coined and popularized the catch phrase "Turn on, tune in, drop out."

So would such anthropological valuations help the modern individual? Is th emodern individual ready to incoproate such assemblage point changes from such travels? Common sense would be to say , go out and find new experiences in the natural world, and see what nature had to offer?

[ 04 November 2005: Message edited by: forum observer ]

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Originally posted by forum observer:
I am surprized no one mentioned "Carlos Castaneda under the tutelage of a Yaqui Indian named of Don Juan.[/i][/URL]This sort of details the history of peyote in context of this religious practise.

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Originally posted by Makwa:
Nope. Fiction. Like Orsan Wells "War of the Worlds." Complete misrepresentation of Yaqui spiritual beliefs.

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Whatever works for you, but personally I find that pot wreaks faaaaar less havoc with me than booze...

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Well, the only havoc booze has ever wreaked on me is a wicked hangover.

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Originally posted by Makwa:
Oh boo hoo. FN people are criticising you and ruining your high. OK - we believe that within some 20,000 years of existence with these 'plants' (and we do not make a distinction between the spirituality of humans, plants, earth and animals) we have developed, with some guidance from ancestors and prophets, a particular sacred relationship. Profane it if you must, but merely be aware that you lose respect in the eyes of FN people by doing so, if that is the least bit important to you. In general, the respect of FN people has been completely insignificant to the dominant culture.

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Originally posted by Raos:

I don't think it's really fair to define the situation in that way. No culture can own the proper use of any naturally occuring species. Is it an insult to Muslims for non-muslims to eat pork? Didn't some cultures venerate cows? Is it therefore sacrilegious for anybody to eat beef? Different cultures will always make different uses of resources. I see this issue the same as listen to ethnic music for pleasure outside of the culture significant that music may have for those that belong to the culture.

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I think you missed makwa's point. There has been considerable regulation or you could say attempts at genocide of Native cultures by Europeans. The examples should be obvious for people on babble. So understandably some Native folks take an interest in how the dominant group handles their culture.

Your comparisons of beef and pork don't really help your argument. There was the little matter of the Sepoy Mutiny- it happened in India during the British Raj when it was rumoured that cartridges given to muslim and hindu troops were greased with pig and cow fat. This triggered a rebellion against british colonization.

sepoy mutiny

If we conveniently forget histories of european brutality and colonization, then yes, we can create the perfect context to accuse pocs of over-reacting and being too sensitive about cultural appropriation. We can pretend that cultural interactions between european colonizers and primarily poc communities happened as an equal exchange- but that would be a big fat lie.

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I think you missed makwa's point. There has been considerable regulation or you could say attempts at genocide of Native cultures by Europeans. The examples should be obvious for people on babble. So understandably some Native folks take an interest in how the dominant group handles their culture.

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I don't think recreational users of peyote are expropriating native culture, though. I think recreational use of every other known drug has at least shown that many users do so for the mind altering properties of the drugs. Now if non-Native society was on the whole drug-free, and was only interested in peyote to appropriate it from Natives, that would be a different story entirely, but peyote isn't exactly the only hallucinogen used by drug users.

Recreational use of the drug in no way undermines the ability of Natives to use peyote as they have for thousdans of years, and peyote isn't being used by non-Natives to pretend to be native, but as recreational drug.

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Your comparisons of beef and pork don't really help your argument. There was the little matter of the Sepoy Mutiny- it happened in India during the British Raj when it was rumoured that cartridges given to muslim and hindu troops were greased with pig and cow fat. This triggered a rebellion against british colonization.

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How does that in any way compare? Recreational use of peyote by non-Natives in no way forces natives to interact with peyote in a way that they don't agree with. I can certainly understand Natives being wary of cultural expropriation, but opposing everything that could potentially be conceived as cultural appropriation simply on those grounds, regardless of whether they're any actually motive for such, seems to me to be just as ludicrous as would be refusing to allow Natives to use peyote in spiritual ceremonies simply because it's a mind altering drug that could be abused.

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If we conveniently forget histories of european brutality and colonization, then yes, we can create the perfect context to accuse pocs of over-reacting and being too sensitive about cultural appropriation. We can pretend that cultural interactions between european colonizers and primarily poc communities happened as an equal exchange- but that would be a big fat lie.

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I have absolutely no disagreements that Natives and Native culture has been besieged by European culture, and is in many ways still under attack still, but it still makes no sense that a chemical from a plant used in Native culture should then be off limits for use by non-Natives. It seems rather similar to approaching the potential for cultural expropriation with complete cultural segregation. And again, it isn't even as though in this case peyote is being used by non-Nativers in a way that expropriates Native spiritual uses for it. No more than drinking alcohol for personal pleasure profanes drinking wine as a sacrament in Christian faiths.

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And I think Makwa said it best with his comment about how you can go ahead and do whatever you want but there is that issue of respect.

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Originally posted by Raos:
I think that to have no respect for somebody because they don't approach the use of a drug from the same cultural perspective is rather culturally insensitive in itself. To me, it's about as culturally insensitive as having no respect for Natives who use peyote for spiritual reason, because you frown upon any use of drugs.

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Have you ever seen the parody on SCTV? They splice a scene of FM with a recording of the Doobie Bros.

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Originally posted by Makwa:
I don't use peyote as medicine in my nation and would not unless invited by a pipe carrier or healer of the nation that uses peyote in prayer. What makes our different cultural approaches to this particular species of flora is our different cultural world view. I have been taught that all medicines have particular spirit, and to misuse such is to disrespect that spirit. If I were to abuse peyote for recreational use, I would be profaning the spirit of the medicine. This spiritual world view gives a particular value to the being which is that plant. To Anishnawbe, it is not merely an inert thing. Now, while I don't expect someone who does not share this world view to care about the spiritual aspects, but if you cared about the opinion of those who hold these things sacred, you might choose to use a different medicine which was not considered sacred, i.e. hemp.

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But by that logic, isn't every drug that comes from a plant sacred? If you abuse marijuanna, wouldn't you be its spirit?

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I would not go out of my way to get shitfaced on communal wine, because I would consider it an insults to Christians, some of whom are close friends and whom I value.

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If communal wine is a separate entity from any and all other alcohol, why is all peyote off limits? I think abusing peyote that has been prepared for Native spirituality would be completely different, than abusing peyote that has harvested for recreational use. I would agree that getting drunk off communal wine is an insult, as is using peyote intended for healing for recreational purposes. But I don't think drinking wine that has been made for the purpose of personal pleasure consumption is an insult to Christians, and I don't see why using peyote that has not been harvested for traditional Native usage would be any different.

We can spend much of this thread arguing back and forth, typing up rationalizations about our pov but for me it's pretty simple. I live on Native lands, so, i make an effort, despite the deep conditioing and pervasiveness of white supremacist culture, to respect native cultural practices. And by respect, I mean to listen and think thoroughly about the issues of cultural appropriation when they are brought up by members of the Native community, rather than react defensively or immediately jump to the conclusion that my freedom and personal autonomy is in great peril.

[ 06 November 2005: Message edited by: periyar ]

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From the article originally posted by Hephaestion:
The researchers note that their study draws a clear distinction between illicit and religious use of peyote.

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Do they mean that their conclusions about the harmlessness of peyote don't apply unless it's being used for religious (as opposed to illicit) purposes?

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Raos, To me, the prominent theme in all your posts is viewing all cultural consumption as equal. That is where i disagree with you. I see culture as politicized and contested because of the history of colonialism. So, there is a power differential at play and the choices people make about peyote, whether they are native or not has a political significance.

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But at the same time, regardless of whether one culture has a history of colonialism or not, I don't think the solution is to give one culture special rights over the other.

from peyote.org

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the plant has nevertheless continued to play a major sacramental role among the Indians of Mexico, while its use has spread to the North American tribes in the last hundred years.

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Is the appropriate of peyote usage by other Native cultures from Mexican Native cultures less wrong? I simply don't understand the justification here for a double standard.

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We can spend much of this thread arguing back and forth, typing up rationalizations about our pov but for me it's pretty simple. I live on Native lands, so, i make an effort, despite the deep conditioing and pervasiveness of white supremacist culture, to respect native cultural practices. And by respect, I mean to listen and think thoroughly about the issues of cultural appropriation when they are brought up by members of the Native community, rather than react defensively or immediately jump to the conclusion that my freedom and personal autonomy is in great peril.

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I certainly don't mean to imply that this represents a great danger to freedom and rights of non-Native peyote users, and I do understand that cultural appropriate is a valid concern for many Natives for good reason. But at the same time, it doesn't seem right to react and immediately jump to the opposite conclusion, that because Native culture is in a victimized position from European culture, that any cultural concerns are automatically justified as being from a superior position.

Is the appropriate of peyote usage by other Native cultures from Mexican Native cultures less wrong? I simply don't understand the justification here for a double standard."

So, I can see we're just going in circles but I feel compelled to post one last time. Again, you seem to be equating the experiences of Native and dominant (white settlers) communities. When you frame it in this way, the whole argument regarding culutural appropriation makes no sense. So people can say boneheaded things like- why should Native peoples care if the dominant group consumes their culture, after all, some Naitves are Christian which is an integral part of European culture and history and Europeans don't make a big deal about it.

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So, I can see we're just going in circles but I feel compelled to post one last time.

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I do hope you will post more, I know it certainly does seem like we're going in circules, but I would like to think that this will end a little more productive than that.

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Again, you seem to be equating the experiences of Native and dominant (white settlers) communities. When you frame it in this way, the whole argument regarding culutural appropriation makes no sense. So people can say boneheaded things like- why should Native peoples care if the dominant group consumes their culture, after all, some Naitves are Christian which is an integral part of European culture and history and Europeans don't make a big deal about it.

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Well, first I'm not sure it would really be accurate to call the dominant European communities white "settlers" anymore, as I think it's a small minority of such communities that were in any way involved in actually settling the land. Pedantics asside, though, to approach the situation from the very beginning with the assumption that cultures are unequal, it's not very likely you're going to finish with anything different than the assumption you started with. I don't think that starting from the premise that both cultures are equal precludes the possibility that the cultures are interacting on unequal terms with regards to a specific position.

I'm not trying to say it's okay for any culture to consume another at all, what I am saying is that I don't see how this specific iidea, speaking only on non-Natives using peyote, entirely separated from Native culture, is really cultural appropriation.

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And the other thing about your posts- you repeatedly state that cultural appropriation is a legitmate issue but again, the fact that your analysis is anchored on this very incorrect idea that the experiences of Native peoples and the dominant group is the same- as revealed in your above statement, tells me you really don't understand the concept of cultural appropriation or the basics of colonization. But again, that's not surprising. Our educational institutions do a very poor job of teaching the histories and lived realities of poc communities.

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I think one aspect that may be contributing to this going somewhat in circles is that it seems to me that you're approaching this from the standpoint of cultural interaction in general, while I know I'm trying to approach this from the standpoint of viewing this issue alone.