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Author Topic: What chance intelligent life on other planets?
Brian White
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posted 28 October 2006 09:02 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Life on earth got screwed up many times in the past. For instance, The Permian extinction, and a few others before the dinosaur one, so perhaps inteligent life on earth could have happened as much as 250 million years ago.
Or is that unrealistic?
(Perhaps live young with big heads IS necessary for our level of intelligence?)
I think life on earth was damn slow getting smart so surely other worlds would have gotten there a whole long time ago.
So where are they?
Is it possible that "intelligent life" is a dead end?
They breed too fast and destroy their environment everywhere that intelligence arises in the universe?
What do you think?

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 28 October 2006 10:16 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:

I think life on earth was damn slow getting smart so surely other worlds would have gotten there a whole long time ago.So where are they?

We advanced from using stone tools 50 thousand years ago to landing on the moon and splitting atoms and searching for a unified theory of everything. Darwin would have said it's break-neck rate of change.

There are massive age old monoliths around the world. A Canadian scientist using a mini-sub is studying stone blocks and what she thinks is a pyramid hundreds of metres below the surface of the ocean off Cuba. Similar pyramid remnants in Bolivia and Mexico. The Cheops pyramid was supposed to have been built in less than 30 years. Picture a people who scientists know relatively little about, and carefully placing and positioning 2 million multi-ton stone blocks upwards of 40 stories high, one every 3 minutes for almost three decades. Amazing.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Nanuq
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posted 28 October 2006 10:21 PM      Profile for Nanuq   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There's no real evidence that Earth has ever been visited by extraterrestrials (and I mean REAL evidence). Either intelligent life is incredibly rare in the universe or else interstellar travel is a lot harder than the science fiction shows make it out to be. Until they visit us or we visit them, all we can do is speculate about life on other planets.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
500_Apples
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posted 28 October 2006 10:35 PM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nanuq, you're assuming that because there's no evidence of a visit, that means there has not been any visit.

One would presume that it is certainly plausible that there's a galactic convention against intervening in the development of a nascent civilization, or at least intervening in certain ways. For example, perhaps at the end of our history or further along our history anyway, we might learn from Afghanistan, Africa, australian aborigines, et cetera; and apply a theory of non-intervention as a general rule for whenever we find civilizations in development around the galaxy.

This is a very interesting topic. I'm in the process of applying to graduate schools for next fall and I'm seriously looking at astrobiology, which if you type in to google spellcheck gives astrology. (note: this discussion would fall under the research field of exosociobiology).

[ 28 October 2006: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]


From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 28 October 2006 11:58 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nanuq:
intelligent life is incredibly rare in the universe

That is, if it exists.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 29 October 2006 12:47 AM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think it very likely that there is life on many other planets, in our galaxy and others, even if not elsewhere in our own solar system. I think that there are islands of life scattered across the universe, and intelligent life as well, although much rarer.

In our own solar system, there is compelling evidence that Mars once had a thicker atmosphere and water flowing on its surface, conditions similar to early Earth, where life in the form of single-cell organisms developed some 3.5 Billion years ago. There is an excellent chance that micro-organisms did live on Mars, and may still. We have found single-cell organisms on Earth that live in Antartica and in many other adverse conditions. It is not difficult to believe that, if there was life on Mars, when water flowed there, it may still be there, in the crust, among the water-ice that has been detected on or below the Martian surface.

Another place in our solar system that might sustain life (likely only micro-organisms, if any) is Europa, a moon of Jupiter about the size of the Earth's moon, but apparently covered with water ice. The energy from Jupiter's strong tidal forces may provide enough energy to maintain a liquid sea under the icy surface -- and there is strong evidence of such a sea. And where there is liquid water, there may be life.

Life as we know it on Earth may need only some water, some energy, and some basic organic molecules such as those that are found in the comets that bombarded the early Earth and other planets. I would not be at all surprised if there is single-cell life on Mars, Europa, or on some other body here in our solar system.

Still, barring any unexpected Titanian sea-monsters, it seems almost 100% certain that if there is life elsewhere in our solar system, it is only single-cell life. Our Earth is some 4.6 Billion years old. It took about a Billion years for the very first single-cell organisms to develop, followed by algae that could produce oxygen in the atmosphere. It took some 2 Billion years after that for multi-cellular organisms to develop, and another Billion years (just 500-million years ago) for life to really explode, with complex sea life, plant life, and animal life on land, including us. Check out the timeline here. And even within the last several hundreds of millions of years, we have had major extinctions (like that of 65-Million years ago), with most species completely wiped out, and life building back up from what was left.

From our own Earth's experience, it seems that single-cell life can develop with relative ease, but complex life grows with much more difficulty, and "intelligent life" as we conceive it (that's us!) is more difficult still. Only a miniscule percentage of planets could possibly have the conditions to develop intelligent life. And yet it looks like there are countless billions of planets.

Astronomers have already discovered over 200 planets that orbit other stars in our galactic neighbourhood. Most of these are large Jupiter-like gas giants that could never sustain life, although some of them could have moons that might have the chance to harbour life. We have not yet discovered smaller rocky earth-like planets around other stars, not because they don't exist, but only because our instruments are not sensitive enough to observe them; there is plenty of evidence that such planets do exist around other stars.

And yet we (so far) can only find planets among the hundreds or thousands of stars nearest to us. Consider that there are hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy (the "Milky Way"), and hundreds of billions of other galaxies in the universe. It is absurd to think that, out of what must be countless billions of planets, our little Earth alone, orbiting its unexceptional star (our sun), drifting among billions of stars around our unexceptional spiral galaxy, which is one of billions of other galaxes... it is absurd to think that our little planet alone can sustain life, and can develop it into Intelligent life.

To me, the thought that we humans here on earth are the only intelligent beings anywhere in the universe is arrogant and wrong-headed to the point of absurdity; it is akin to the old discredited idea of the earth-centred universe, with the moon, sun, other planets and the whole celestial sphere revolving around the Earth. Only some bizarre god could set everything up this way, so that we're the only intelligent creatures in the whole universe. That would be senseless. If life works on Earth, it must work elsewhere under similar conditions, and with countless billions of planets in the universe, there must be similar conditions. And likely different conditions that lead to different life forms.There is
I have no strong or direct evidence for any of this; we have no absolute proof of any life outside of our Earth. But my educated guess -- my strong gut feeling -- is that there is much life out there on other planets, and at least some intelligent life.

If we haven't found intelligent life yet, it's not because it isn't there; but rather because space is so vast.


From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 29 October 2006 08:59 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My thought was that intelligence would have likely develloped at least 250 million years quicker on some other slightly quieter planet somewhere else in the galixy. AND in the terms of the explosive development and change that has happened in the life of human inteligence, 250 million years is a heck of a head start!
So, where are they?
They should be almost everywhere unless there is an incredible barrier to space travel out there.
My thought is they have been there, done this, and f**ked it all up (And we are going to do the same thing in an evolutionary twinkling of an eye")
My thought is that "inteligent" life may be a dead end.Everywhere it arises, it disapears almost as quickly as it began.
quote:
Originally posted by Albireo:
To me, the thought that we humans here on earth are the only intelligent beings anywhere in the universe is arrogant and wrong-headed to the point of absurdity; it is akin to the old discredited idea of the earth-centred universe, with the moon, sun, other planets and the whole celestial sphere revolving around the Earth. Only some bizarre god could set everything up this way, so that we're the only intelligent creatures in the whole universe. That would be senseless. If life works on Earth, it must work elsewhere under similar conditions, and with countless billions of planets in the universe, there must be similar conditions. And likely different conditions that lead to different life forms.There is
I have no strong or direct evidence for any of this; we have no absolute proof of any life outside of our Earth. But my educated guess -- my strong gut feeling -- is that there is much life out there on other planets, and at least some intelligent life.

If we haven't found intelligent life yet, it's not because it isn't there; but rather because space is so vast.



From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Legless-Marine
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posted 29 October 2006 09:04 PM      Profile for Legless-Marine        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned the Drake equation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation
From: Calgary | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 29 October 2006 10:33 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow, you people are wide.

And there is an update to the Drake Eqn. from your link, Marine. By what I understand from that is that there could be life on "exo-planets", or planets that may have optimal conditions to support life and radiating more energy than regular planets receive from a central star. Fascinating.

I listened to Michio Kaku once talk about the SETI search for ET interstellar radio communications. He speculates that there could, in theory, be type III civilization radio wave broadcasts passing all around the earth to various planetary destinations in a similar way that internet protocols are used. I think he was comparing the way information is transmitted in TCP/IP packets to various internet nodes and re-transmitted when errors occur, like bits of information lost due to whatever reasons ie. everything from decoding errors to possible cosmic ray interferance. With interstellar communications, I think Kaku was suggesting a need for the ability to re-route encrypted radio transmissions, like the "forward and store" nature of internet transmissions in case of, say, a supernova event or magnetic storms which could possible distort or destroy an encoded message. I don't know astronomy behind what he was talking about, but it sounded good to me. Kaku suggests that perhaps SETI may only ever be able to receive pieces of a larger communication until we are able to setup receivers on distant planets on solar scale arrays, or something like that.

What about UFO's?. It's pseudoscience for mainstream scientists who desire to be taken seriously by federal research initiatives. I've read some independent commentators suggest that UFO's might actually be Von Neumann probes, "robots" sent here a long time ago by, for example, a Type III civilization. Governments around the world are spending money on nano-technology. If this planet ever achieves type I or II or even III status, I'm guessing people living in the future may travel to other planets, or at the very least, from Ottawa to Toronto for a Sens-Leafs playoff game, by way of teleportation.

I remember one person's strange look at possible contact with another civilization. It went something like this. If an ant colony in the Australian outback encountered one human being during the life of the colony, what would the person have to say to them and vice versa ?. Would they even realize that there was an encounter ?.

[ 29 October 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Southlander
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posted 30 October 2006 02:50 AM      Profile for Southlander     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
the age of the earth has very little to do with it, since the dawn of time we are onto out third sun, thats right the sun has used up all it's fuel and burned out and exploded with enough force to blow the whole solar system into tiny pieces, this has happeded at least twice already, so if life on other planets can get started without the heavy metals that are created in the second star explosion they were way, way ahead of us. On the other hand life on earth seems to be desended from only one initial organism, and ditto qradrapeds, invertibrates, etc. so perhaps life, life as a multi celled organism, life as a quadreped are very very rare occurances. However the rise of intelligent life once you get to that stage does seem a little easier, just before the dinosours mostly died out there was one species with quite a large brain and an opposible thumb....
From: New Zealand | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 30 October 2006 05:18 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:
Nanuq, you're assuming that because there's no evidence of a visit, that means there has not been any visit.

Not to mention the idea that if there hasn't been any visit, there is no life out there. But, Nanuq qualified that by saying that extraterrestrial life is either very rare OR that space travel is more difficult than sci fi makes it out to be.

I'd be more likely to go with the latter, personally. I'm willing to bet the universe is teeming with life. I mean, what would the odds be of billions of planets out there and Earth being the only one with any life on it?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nanuq
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posted 30 October 2006 06:17 AM      Profile for Nanuq   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I'd be more likely to go with the latter, personally. I'm willing to bet the universe is teeming with life. I mean, what would the odds be of billions of planets out there and Earth being the only one with any life on it?

Any sufficiently advanced civilization wouldn't have to visit other systems themselves. Just send out automated probes that can do the contacting for them. We've done it ourselves with Pioneer 10 and Voyager 1 and 2 (although it'll be a long time before they get to another solar system). There hasn't been any sign of alien probes visiting us either.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 30 October 2006 07:47 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First alien probe - photographed in 1870

"Most astronauts were reluctant to discuss UFOs. I did have occasion in 1951 to have two days of observation of many flights of them, of different sizes, flying in fighter formation, generally from east to west over Europe." -- Astronaut Gordon Cooper on foo fighters over Germany, UN address

quote:
If UFO's are real, then so is interstellar space travel. -- Michio Kaku, physicist

From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Geneva
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posted 30 October 2006 09:14 AM      Profile for Geneva     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I'm willing to bet the universe is teeming with life. I mean, what would the odds be of billions of planets out there and Earth being the only one with any life on it?

like Woody Allen said, he didn't really believe in eternal life -- but he was going to pack an extra pair of underwear just in case

not that different from Pascal's argument ....


From: um, well | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged

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