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Author Topic: "anti-anti-americansim" in Canada
josh
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Babbler # 2938

posted 04 December 2002 10:11 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
http://makeashorterlink.com/?E11C257A2
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 04 December 2002 10:49 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
We cannot countenance global bullying, or sign on to every mad adventure dreamed up in the bunkers of Virginia, in the pathetic hope of getting a break on softwood-lumber exports.

We know that when U.S. governments seek to arbitrate global morality, they often get it wrong. (Saddam Hussein, circa 1982.) We're within our rights to be alarmed at plans for giant computer systems to snoop through our travel and credit-card records. What on Earth is anti-American about that?

We celebrate the best of America's history and culture. We thank Americans for their vast contributions to the cause of freedom and humanity. We will go to our graves haunted by Sept. 11, 2001, and determined to help prevent a repeat.

And as we've done so many times before, we watch in sorrow as misguided rulers in Washington undermine what is great about America. Thankfully, in the past, this has been corrected in due course by Americans themselves.


Thank you, Paul Knox. Kudos to you.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 690

posted 04 December 2002 12:10 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Heehee... if anyone missed the Asper rant see here.
From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 04 December 2002 12:46 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I missed the Asper rant. Knox's account of part of it is highly amusing:

quote:
It ended with what sounded like a call to revolution, drawn straight from the U.S. Declaration of Independence. If the "attitudes" of the federal government threaten our ties with the United States, CanWest said, "it is the duty of the people to alter or abolish such government."

Well, yes. The sacred right of revolution is, as we know, one of the founding principles of Canada.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
anna_c
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2845

posted 05 December 2002 10:56 PM      Profile for anna_c     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i don't know about this...

quote:
Nothing is more American than questioning the actions of military and political leaders. Some of the most eloquent critics of America's global pretensions are to be found in the United States itself.

From: montreal | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
feerit
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Babbler # 3293

posted 05 December 2002 11:43 PM      Profile for feerit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, put it this way anna_c , there are plenty of critics of US policy in the US , you just never hear about them. Doesn't make for good TV News ratings and advertising revenue down here.

Or if you take minigun's tack, they're all haters and "pussies" from Harvard. Or equivalent to (insert despotic dictator here) because if you don't want to overthrow governments of countries other than your own, or think it causes more problems than it helps, you're of the above category.

Just rest assured that there are plenty of Americans (like, erm, myself and other US posters on babble) and plenty of "critics" who exist in the US, just again, you don't hear too much about them because it isn't what sells or what the international image has to be.

(awaiting coarse reply from some unnamed people!)


From: Outside of Atlanta, otherwise known as loonyland | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 05 December 2002 11:52 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I believe there is a lot of dissent in the US. It's really pretty obvious if you read websites, if you read Harper's or Ms. or even the New Yorker, if you pay attention to columnists in the New York Times...

But there is also a huge movement out to quash that dissent (probably better funded, if much less numerous, than the dissenters).

For that reason, I doubt you'll see much dissent on TV, or in USA Today.

But it's there. It's definitely there.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
anna_c
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Babbler # 2845

posted 06 December 2002 02:24 PM      Profile for anna_c     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
just because there are dissenting americans (which i do not doubt!) this does not mean that dissent is quintessentially "american"; this habit americans have of claiming values as "american" is infuriating! we are continually told that democracy is "american," family values are "american," freedom and the belief in human rights is "american." moreover, the fact that a dissenting american minority exists does not erase a half century of american foreign and domestic policy that violently represses dissent, violates human rights, and murders families. lets be clear, what exactly are we talking about here? isn't this precicely what dissenters are protesting?!
From: montreal | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
flotsom
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Babbler # 2832

posted 06 December 2002 02:54 PM      Profile for flotsom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
But there is also a huge movement out to quash that dissent (probably better funded, if much less numerous, than the dissenters).

Don't forget that Bush has a nearly eighty per cent approval rating.


From: the flop | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 06 December 2002 02:58 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's actually in the 60%-65% range now.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 06 December 2002 03:01 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Although it's not exclusively American, it has always been my impression that the strong suspicion of government that underlies much American political culture is what fuels much progressive political activity. I have always found admirable this courage of a sizable minority of Americans to embrace the ideas we associate with freedom, regardless of miniguns with "itchy trigger fingers" who would kill them as "pussies" or traitors or *gasp* liberals. When I reflect on the resolve displayed by civil rights marchers, Vietnam War protestors, Seattle demonstrators , journalists and media figures, CIA, FBI, police whistleblowers and politicians who risk not only disgrace and loss of career, but death at the hands of some Second Amendment wacko, I see an America that fills me with pride that we share commonalities of culture and geography. In this sense, the closer the ties we have with our American brothers and sisters, the better.
From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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posted 06 December 2002 09:39 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think maybe the tendency to claim things like dissent as "American" is not saying that the US invented them, but a reaction to the 1950s accusation that they were "un-American." ie: dissent is just as legitimately American as conformity or apple pie.

And it's true that the US has a great tradition of dissent. Many Canadian NGOs got their start as branch-plants of American NGOs. In a way even the NDP did -- you could make a strong case that the CCF was founded by Canadians joining the US Christian social gospel movement.


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
SHH
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1527

posted 06 December 2002 09:53 PM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not sure this belongs here but...Lee Harris takes a look at the Intellectual Origins of America-Bashing.

quote:
Furthermore, this is no less true of those who, like Chomsky, have focused on what is seen as American military aggression against the rest of the world, for this aggression is understood as having its “root cause” in America’s systematic exploitation of the remainder of the human race. If American exploitation did not create misery, it would not need to use military force. It is the global immiserization thesis that makes the use of force an indispensable tool of American foreign policy and that is responsible, according to this view, for turning America into a terrorist state. This explains the absolute centrality of the global immiserization thesis in the creation of the specter of America now haunting so much of our world.

But this condition, let us recall, is precisely the opposite of the objective political conditions that, according to Marx, must be present in order for capitalism to be overthrown. For classical Marxism demands, quite realistically, a state that is literally being torn apart by internal dissension. Revolution, in short, requires a full-fledged civil war within the capitalist social order itself, since nothing short of this can possibly achieve the goal that the revolution is seeking. Hence, 9-11-style attacks that serve only to strengthen the already considerable solidarity between classes in the United States are, from the perspective of classical Marxism, fatally flawed. For such attacks not only fail to further any revolutionary aims; they actually make the revolution less probable. A society of 300 million individuals whose bumper stickers say “United We Stand” is not a breeding ground for revolutionary activity. Nor is it a society that can be easily intimidated into mending its ways, even if we make the assumption that its ways need mending.

The left, if it is not to condemn itself to become a fantasy ideology, must reconcile itself not only with the reality of America, but with its dialectical necessity — America is the sine qua non of any future progress that mankind can make, no matter what direction that progress may take.

The belief that mankind’s progress, by any conceivable standard of measurement recognized by Karl Marx, could be achieved through the destruction or even decline of American power is a dangerous delusion. Respect for the deep structural laws that govern the historical process — whatever these laws may be — must dictate a proportionate respect for any social order that has achieved the degree of stability and prosperity the United States has achieved and has been signally decisive in permitting other nations around the world to achieve as well. To ignore these facts in favor of surreal ideals and utterly utopian fantasies is a sign not merely of intellectual bankruptcy, but of a disturbing moral immaturity. For nothing indicates a failure to understand the nature of a moral principle better than to believe that it is capable of enforcing itself.
It is not. It requires an entire social order to shelter and protect it. And if it cannot find these, it will perish.


PS: The Brits like Americans, the Germans don’t get it, and there may be a falling-out in the family.

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: SHH ]


From: Ex-Silicon Valley to State Saguaro | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
SHH
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1527

posted 14 December 2002 06:40 PM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I read this a while back but I think it's worth a reread.

Click.

quote:
It is time to stop pretending that Europeans and Americans share a common view of the world, or even that they occupy the same world. On the all-important question of power — the efficacy of power, the morality of power, the desirability of power — American and European perspectives are diverging. Europe is turning away from power, or to put it a little differently, it is moving beyond power into a self-contained world of laws and rules and transnational negotiation and cooperation. It is entering a post-historical paradise of peace and relative prosperity, the realization of Kant’s “Perpetual Peace.” The United States, meanwhile, remains mired in history, exercising power in the anarchic Hobbesian world where international laws and rules are unreliable and where true security and the defense and promotion of a liberal order still depend on the possession and use of military might. That is why on major strategic and international questions today, Americans are from Mars and Europeans are from Venus: They agree on little and understand one another less and less. And this state of affairs is not transitory — the product of one American election or one catastrophic event. The reasons for the transatlantic divide are deep, long in development, and likely to endure. When it comes to setting national priorities, determining threats, defining challenges, and fashioning and implementing foreign and defense policies, the United States and Europe have parted ways.

[ December 14, 2002: Message edited by: SHH ]


From: Ex-Silicon Valley to State Saguaro | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eauz
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3057

posted 20 December 2002 09:38 PM      Profile for Eauz   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
We celebrate the best of America's history and culture.

Uhhh... Could someone Explain what and where is American Culture?

It doesn't Exist...


From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 20 December 2002 11:10 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Uhhh... Could someone Explain what and where is American Culture?

It doesn't Exist...


Er... but are you saying there's no such thing as a National Culture, anywhere? Or that Americans, in Particular, have no Culture? And what's With all the Capitals, Anyway?


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
SHH
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1527

posted 20 December 2002 11:22 PM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Such a funny young man. I too was funny when. But a well meaning young man I’m sure. As to the non-existent culture that, curiously, at the same time rules as an Empire (??) yet remains not real as a culture that doesn’t exist, you might want to start with Democracy in America (1835). And then move to the US Constitution and Bill of Rights that, I think, Trudeau, used as a template for your Charter of Rights.

And we have Britney Spears. Is that not Cultuuure?

PS: Thanks for reviving this thread. The lack of response to the various above links is disappointing and revealing. I thought there might be more there, there. I guess not.


From: Ex-Silicon Valley to State Saguaro | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
SHH
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1527

posted 20 December 2002 11:28 PM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The 'lance is back I see (after my post). Maybe we can have a serious debate?
From: Ex-Silicon Valley to State Saguaro | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eauz
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3057

posted 20 December 2002 11:47 PM      Profile for Eauz   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I ment citizens of the Grand Ol' USA... I'm sorry, for that mix up...
(which is a different argument, because I think Citizens of the USA should change their name, because everyone in the "Americas" are Americans, not just people in the USA)

I guess my ideas were baised on opinion. Actually, a lot of the culture in the USA has been destroyed by capitalism... Thanks a lot...!


From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged

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