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Author Topic: Facebook has another offensive application: What Mental Disorder Do you Have?
bigcitygal
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posted 02 January 2008 05:39 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd like to request that all babblers who are on facebook to join me in complaining to facebook about this offensive application and removing it?

I know, it's facebook, what do we expect? But this is a small but significant thing to do.

I'm not sure I can post a link, since you have to already be a facebook user.

Thanks, all.


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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posted 02 January 2008 06:01 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I didn't see it. I hardly ever ever look in on my facebook account, and don't really know my way around too well, but that sounds fairly awful.
From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
jrose
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posted 02 January 2008 06:03 AM      Profile for jrose     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow, that's truly revolting, even for Facebook.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 January 2008 06:20 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Gross. I complained, for all the good it'll do. I doubt they'll recognize that stereotyping people with mental illness is similar to stereotyping based on gender, race, etc. (And I doubt that they would care much about sexist applications either, come to think of it.)

They seem to be debating it on their wall, though, which is good.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 January 2008 06:22 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
P.S. Oh shit. When you send a complaint using the "report application" link - it sends your report to THE DEVELOPER OF THE APPLICATION. Not to Facebook!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 02 January 2008 06:33 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks Michelle and jrose. I've been reading some of the wall comments and they're giving me a headache. I'm going to complain to facebook directly and let you know how it works out.
From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
jrose
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posted 02 January 2008 06:55 AM      Profile for jrose     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've been sending Facebook complaints lately, regarding another issue, and I have yet to hear back. It says in their policy statement that they won't directly respond to all inquiries, which is incredibly frustrating, but the problem I was reporting seems to have stopped (for now, at least.) I will go ahead and contact them regarding this one as well. Thanks for the heads up, bigcitygal.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
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posted 02 January 2008 07:01 AM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It seems to me that the creator must be erasing some of the complaints on the wall--because there's a bunch of wall posts that refer to complaints that aren't there.
From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 02 January 2008 07:01 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I doubt the Facebook admins can respond to every inquiry, because they probably get hundreds of thousands of complaints and questions every single day.

However, Facebook has responded to some technical inquiries I made - I usually get an answer from the admins within 24 hours of asking. I can't explain why I get through and others don't.

There are a lot of apps on Facebook that look to be have been put together by fairly immature people.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
500_Apples
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posted 02 January 2008 07:14 AM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Complaining about offensive Facebook applications is like complaining to your ISP about offensive websites. If you don't like what regular people think of the world and their sense of humour then you should avoid finding out, and pull off Facebook. It'll never be a filtered community like babble.

Facebook is seeking to be a global company, and the prospects for a global community to subject itself to the subjective social and political norms of north atlantic lefists strike me as being dim. Prospects which strike me as being even more dim is removing all offensive applications one by one. There are applications about race, about boobs, et cetera. They do not reflect "facebook". They reflect the general public with a bias of university students.

[ 02 January 2008: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]


From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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posted 02 January 2008 07:29 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
If you don't like what regular people think of the world and their sense of humour then you should avoid finding out, and pull off Facebook. ..............There are applications about race, about boobs, et cetera. They do not reflect "facebook". They reflect the general public with a bias of university students.


Sure, Facebook is just a microcosm of the world, so we here at babble should just ignore unpleasant bits like racism, mysogeny, oppression and such little injustices as they arise. We'll just lament quietly amongst ourselves, wouldn't want to bother any of those "normal regular" people out there.

Yeah, that's what we've always been about here at babble.

Umm...NOT!


From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
500_Apples
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posted 02 January 2008 07:39 AM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oldgoat:

Sure, Facebook is just a microcosm of the world, so we here at babble should just ignore unpleasant bits like racism, mysogeny, oppression and such little injustices as they arise. We'll just lament quietly amongst ourselves, wouldn't want to bother any of those "normal regular" people out there.

Yeah, that's what we've always been about here at babble.

Umm...NOT!


There is less racism, mysoginy, and oppression at babble, and that's due to a selection effect. Probably a lot of people come here and enjoy the company without being too activist. I myself do very little except for some charitable donations. Donating money is always easier than donating time.

The internet is not like the downtown bars and joints where you can go through the justice system to complain, or directly to legislators. It's a global libertarian enterprise. Other things are gained in the process which more than make up for said losses.

There is a bright future for activism on the internet. It's excellent for people coming together, distributing information and raising money.


From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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posted 02 January 2008 07:52 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
500 Apples, I have no doubt that you're a good guy. It has been my experience however, that a lot of really hard core science weenies such as yourself lack an immidiate and intuative grasp of certain aspect of social issues, both in the broad sense and on an interpersonal level. In how you interpret the world, I would describe you as a very "neck up" sort of a thinker. As such you miss much.
From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 January 2008 07:59 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In some ways, I agree with 500_Apples. I, for instance, wouldn't pressure an ISP to remove offensive web sites from their servers, because I also believe in the "libertarian" nature of the internet.

But Facebook claims to have terms of service which includes not allowing offensive stereotyping or attacks on "people or groups".

If Facebook said, okay, this is a free-for-all and we're not monitoring any content, then sure, I'd think it would be kind of useless to complain about stuff like this. But that's not what they claim.

And so, if they've got the mechanism available for people to register their disapproval with content Facebook is making available, then I don't see why people shouldn't use it.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
bliter
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posted 02 January 2008 08:06 AM      Profile for bliter   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not registered there. Haven't visited before. Saw the question by Froonie but not the quiz. Got this:

Error while loading page from What Mental Disorder Do You Have?

There are still a few kinks Facebook and the makers of What Mental Disorder Do You Have? are trying to iron out. We appreciate your patience as we try to fix these issues. Your problem has been logged - if it persists, please come back in a few days. Thanks!

--------------------------------------------------


Let's look after our own board and let THEM sort it out in the quite lively discussion that is occurring.

"Organized" complaints to ISPs concern me. The technique can be, and undoubtedly is at times, abused.

I recall a talk show moderator who on occasion would speak of his chronic depression as an admitted mental disorder. Some will discuss a mental disorder. Some won't. No arms are being twisted.

I wonder how many among those message boarders complaining will have tried to buttress past arguments by suggesting other posters of suffering paranoia.


From: delta | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 02 January 2008 08:38 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A few clarifications on why I began this thread.

1. The application "What Mental Disorder Do You Have?" is presented as a "fun" quiz, the same lines as "Which Harry Potter Character Are You?". This is what makes it offensive, not the having or not having of a so-called "mental disorder"

2. As we learned during the "Canadian Wish" fiasco, Facebook moderates plenty of content. As Michelle said, it presents itself as being against offensive topics, etc. Which is why I'm complaining to them.

3. 500, the internet is already being used by activists to mobilize and has been for a number of years now. (Anyone remember e-left?) A recent example is the stopping of the deportation of Laibar Singh in Vancouver a few weeks ago. Much mobilization and information sharing was done online.

For me, Facebook is one more place that I get notices about activist events going on. This issue happened across my path, but if I wanted to I could spend all my time online researching offensive crap on Facebook. For the record, I don't want to.


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
rural - Francesca
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posted 02 January 2008 08:57 AM      Profile for rural - Francesca   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is the bigger issue here...

...should mental disorders be a source of humour and/or entertainment?

For some people, finding humour in a 'condition' makes the condition a little less scary, a little less stigmatized, a perhaps a little more normal. Here you have a badly created application that implies that EVERYONE has a mental disorder. Well gee if everyone has one it's a little less horrifying if you're one of those people.


From: the backyard | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
500_Apples
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posted 02 January 2008 04:38 PM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oldgoat:
500 Apples, I have no doubt that you're a good guy. It has been my experience however, that a lot of really hard core science weenies such as yourself lack an immidiate and intuative grasp of certain aspect of social issues, both in the broad sense and on an interpersonal level. In how you interpret the world, I would describe you as a very "neck up" sort of a thinker. As such you miss much.

For someone who has stated it's bad to be offensive, you've just really gone out of your way to be offensive.


From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
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posted 02 January 2008 08:12 PM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:
The internet is not like the downtown bars and joints where you can go through the justice system to complain, or directly to legislators. It's a global libertarian enterprise. Other things are gained in the process which more than make up for said losses.

This is a wonderful statement, and I hope 500 will forgive me for singling this out. It is one of the great misconceptions of cyberspace that it is somehow different, or separated, from the "real" world. As if government legislation, cultural norms and social structures don't apply when we flick on the WiFi. As if we could switch off social conditioning when we switch on our MacBooks.

The internet is not a libertarian utopia. It certainly likes to dress up as such, but nothing could be further from the truth. Without going into the fact that facebook engages in selective moderation, or the broader concerns of net neutrality and privacy invasion, cyberspaces are socially mediated by the same forces that mediate activity in a pub, or activity in teenage basements. What is fascinating about the internet, I find, its promise of utopian spaces that are instantly embraced by users like you and me, only for us to construct simulacra of our own crappy world.

Things like advertisements (socially targeted now!), word of mouth, and basic common interests build communities on the internet that are no relation to the civil liberty free-for-all to which it pretends. The internet in general used to have this reputation of anti-sociality--a second-rate method of interaction for geeks and losers who couldn't face (or function) normal social relations. What should be blatantly obvious now, is that community sites like facebook aren't used by some cyber-underground seeking a freedom forbidden them in the real world: it's used by the most social animals around. Facebook, and other spatial representations on the internet, aren't cut off from the real world, they are the real world.

If a friend tells you a racist joke, would you have the same reaction you would to this application? To harden your heart against the barbarity of the "real" world? Or would you suggest, perhaps, another world-view? If your favourite pub started hosting meetings for "Girls Gone Wild," would you continue to frequent it without protest? Why would you treat the internet any different?


From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
500_Apples
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posted 02 January 2008 08:31 PM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Catchfire:

If a friend tells you a racist joke, would you have the same reaction you would to this application? To harden your heart against the barbarity of the "real" world? Or would you suggest, perhaps, another world-view? If your favourite pub started hosting meetings for "Girls Gone Wild," would you continue to frequent it without protest? Why would you treat the internet any different?

If my favourite pub started engaging in activities I find unfortunate I would stop frequenting that particular pub. I would not stop using facebook because some user somewhere is an insensitive ass. The appropriate analogy would be if there were an ass at my favourite pub.

Your conclusion comes from using libertarian as an absolute term, and that's valid. I was using it as a relative term. There's a difference between the law and order of the regular world and the incentive by social pressure of the internet. The classical world of big companies and big government provide very specific forms of control and very specific opinions of what's right and what's wrong. For writers, musicians, software developers and others, the internet provides an opportunity to fulfill other niches, to find large groups of people with a different idea of right and wrong. It expands options.

Examples:

arxiv
rabble
wikipedia

[ 02 January 2008: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]


From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 02 January 2008 09:32 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Balderdash. I am all for pressuring Facebook - and indeed any media mogul - into ceasing to foster discrimination.
The fact that some folks pressure businesses for opposite reasons - in support of discrimination - makes it even more imperative for us to stand up and be counted: one has to be naive to believe that the Great Unseen Hand of Libertarianism will somehow silence *them*.
Freedom of speech - especially commercial speech - isn't an absolute and has never been.

One can write the Facebook representative for applications development, Dave Morin - a person who seems very aware of the importance of good p.r. - from this page: Message to Dave Morin

Way to go, BigCityGal!


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
bliter
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posted 02 January 2008 11:24 PM      Profile for bliter   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is rather like trying to legislate against bad taste - a futile exercise. I noted the opening post did not provide a link.

Just as with Babble thread titles, the question, perhaps, did not permit italics which could have posed the question in a self-deprecatory form:

What Mental Disorder Do You Have?

One could take from this that the questioner was, possibly, not without a mental problem.


From: delta | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
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posted 02 January 2008 11:59 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by bliter:
This is rather like trying to legislate against bad taste - a futile exercise. I noted the opening post did not provide a link.

Just as with Babble thread titles, the question, perhaps, did not permit italics which could have posed the question in a self-deprecatory form:

What Mental Disorder Do You Have?

One could take from this that the questioner was, possibly, not without a mental problem.


What's yours?


From: Aurora | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
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posted 03 January 2008 03:00 AM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
bliter, maybe you should go and find out what facebook is before you levy anymore ridiculous, uninformed criticism at the place. It is mind boggling to me that you apparently have access to the internet, but have never heard of facebook.
From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
jrose
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posted 03 January 2008 05:04 AM      Profile for jrose     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
One can write the Facebook representative for applications development, Dave Morin - a person who seems very aware of the importance of good p.r. - from this page: Message to Dave Morin

Thanks, Martin!


From: Ottawa | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 January 2008 05:19 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Rural Francesca has a point. There are quite a few people commenting on the Facebook page who self-identify as having been diagnosed with mental illness, who enjoyed the quiz and felt that it was a way of humanizing their condition.

One could also look at the quiz as a way of poking fun at the whole idea of psychological diagnoses in general (e.g. we ALL have some symptoms of some DSM disorder or other). One of the big criticisms of psychiatry is that it sticks labels on people and stigmatizes them for exhibiting certain combinations of human behaviour. I could easily see someone with a diagnosis making up such a quiz as a way of showing people, hey, we ALL display some of these symptoms and behaviours sometimes.

Of course, the self-identified people with psychiatric diagnoses on the wall of that facebook page don't speak for everyone who has been caught up in the mental health industry, but I'll bet Facebook will probably take their points of view into account when deciding what to do about this.

It's too bad if the writers of the application ARE deleting comments from people who are unhappy about it, though.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
bliter
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posted 03 January 2008 05:23 AM      Profile for bliter   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Whoa! Where in my two posts have I been critical of Facebook?

With CBC, BBC, NYTimes, Babble, etc, there are only so many hours in the day so haven't registered at Facebook.

I have greater concern that control freaks should have at this medium than that posts perceived in bad taste might appear.

bliter:

quote:
Let's look after our own board and let THEM sort it out in the quite lively discussion that is occurring.

quote:
Originally posted by Catchfire:
bliter, maybe you should go and find out what facebook is before you levy anymore ridiculous, uninformed criticism at the place. It is mind boggling to me that you apparently have access to the internet, but have never heard of facebook.

Please reread. Your mind boggles rather easily - and in this case without justification. My later reference suggested how Froomie's Facebook question might have been intended and was not attacking the site or questioner - if anything, the reverse.

[ 03 January 2008: Message edited by: bliter ]


From: delta | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
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posted 03 January 2008 05:31 AM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Criticism as in passing judgment, not as in fault finding. That you could draw such a comparison between facebook and rabble shows you have no idea what the former entails, hence the boggled mind. facebook is not simply another bulletin board.
From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
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posted 03 January 2008 05:43 AM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:
Your conclusion comes from using libertarian as an absolute term, and that's valid. I was using it as a relative term. There's a difference between the law and order of the regular world and the incentive by social pressure of the internet. The classical world of big companies and big government provide very specific forms of control and very specific opinions of what's right and what's wrong. For writers, musicians, software developers and others, the internet provides an opportunity to fulfill other niches, to find large groups of people with a different idea of right and wrong. It expands options.

There's some truth to this, but I believe you are still privileging "real world" forces over those that impose themselves in cyberspace. So-called "law and order," it should be obvious, is less a limiting power than it is a powerful fiction. Thou shall not steal? What could be more fictitious than that?

Law is essentially codified oral history, and as such, harnesses the same forces that inform what we consider purely social. We cannot turn off this conditioning when we go online. The internet is no different than the social places we've constructed in the "brick and mortar" world (another illusion--when was the last time someone built a house only with brick and mortar?) to meet like-minded people. Hence my imperfect pub analogy. My point was that it is virtuous to protect the social spaces we have carved out for ourselves from injustice. And that mandate holds whether we are talking about a pub, a classroom, a nation-state, or a social networking cyberspace.

Now that's thread drift!

[ 03 January 2008: Message edited by: Catchfire ]


From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 03 January 2008 06:52 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Catchfire, thanks for everything you've said in this thread, and martin, thanks for the link to Facebook dude.

Since I feel the reason I started this thread, to get info about complaining to Facebook sufficiently out there, I'm going to contribute to the drift started by Catchfire.

quote:
Catchfire: Law is essentially codified oral history, and as such, harnesses the same forces that inform what we consider purely social. We cannot turn off this conditioning when we go online. The internet is no different than the social places we've constructed in the "brick and mortar" world (another illusion--when was the last time someone built a house only with brick and mortar?) to meet like-minded people.

Yes! When the internet was first getting going, back in the mid 1990s I heard people saying how you can be genderless, or whatever gender you like, online; you can be whatever race, etc etc. Bull-fucking-shit! We all bring our realities to our online lives, yes, even if we affect a persona. One example: if you're a woman, but you're male-identified, this will come out in how you post and how you present. There have been many examples of this "online essentialism" here on babble. An example is how easy trolls are to spot, especially when they are trying to sound lefty by saying nonsense like "Unions rock! Let's kill all the bosses, dude!"

I would push the argument further and say that not only can we NOT turn off our conditioning, while online we reproduce it in more extreme ways, given the faux-power of anonymity. Demographics of internet users have white men as the consistent dominant voices, not in proportion to their presence in the North American population. I would also argue that conservative mainstream voices are also dominant. Check out the unmoderated discussion boards on craigslist for a taste of the real internet. An abundance of virulent words of racist and sexist violence against women, against men of colour, classist and homophobic crap, etc, etc.

This brings me to one of my favourite gripes. My huge problem with Wikipedia is that WHO has contributed to it is not taken into account, as if all information is "neutral". Ha! Yes, if you want a concise listing of the names and air dates of all episodes of Xena, Wiki has extremely accurate information. If you want to look up definitions of sexism, racism, fascism, abuse, etc, I would implore you to go elsewhere online.

quote:
Catchfire: My point was that it is virtuous to protect the social spaces we have carved out for ourselves from injustice.

Although I agree with you, Catchfire, I want to be clear that Facebook is NOT such a space, although it presents itself as such. It's still worth lodging a complaint, and working to change though.

[ 03 January 2008: Message edited by: bigcitygal ]


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 03 January 2008 08:00 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Got a response from Morin:
--------------------
Re: Please kill the "What Mental Disorder Do You Have?" app

Martin,

Thank you for the note. I'll let our legal department and platform operations group know about this. If it does violate our TOS we will remove it.

Dave
--------------------

and sent him this from a BBC blog:

13 Dec 07, 1:52 PM - 'Irresponsible' Facebook mental health quiz
Posted by Crippled Monkey
Facebook will probably be marked out as one of this year's biggest successes. Just about everyone's on it. Your friends. Your family. Even Ouch and our very own DIsability Bitch couldn't resist its lure.

But now mental health charity Rethink has released a strongly-worded statement criticising an online mental health quiz featured on the social networking site. It's called "What mental disorder do you have?", and it invites users to answer questions to find out if they or their friends have a mental health problem. It even says "C'mon, we know you must have something!"

Oh, but it gets worse. At the end of the quiz, the person is given a 'diagnosis'. People with manic depression are advised to "start living" and "eat lots of fast food and candy", whilst those diagnosed with OCD get the message "Relax! You have OCD and it's annoying everyone you come in contact with!" Nice, eh?

Rethink are calling for the Facebook bosses to remove this particular application immediately.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
500_Apples
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posted 03 January 2008 09:00 AM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Catchfire:

There's some truth to this, but I believe you are still privileging "real world" forces over those that impose themselves in cyberspace. So-called "law and order," it should be obvious, is less a limiting power than it is a powerful fiction. Thou shall not steal? What could be more fictitious than that?

Law is essentially codified oral history, and as such, harnesses the same forces that inform what we consider purely social. We cannot turn off this conditioning when we go online. The internet is no different than the social places we've constructed in the "brick and mortar" world (another illusion--when was the last time someone built a house only with brick and mortar?) to meet like-minded people. Hence my imperfect pub analogy. My point was that it is virtuous to protect the social spaces we have carved out for ourselves from injustice. And that mandate holds whether we are talking about a pub, a classroom, a nation-state, or a social networking cyberspace.

Now that's thread drift!


For starters law and order is hardly a fiction. Canada has a human rights commission and a CRTC for example. I know the CRTC bans Fox News and I'm not sure if they're still banning Al-Jazeera. You may or may not see these as extreme points of view, but they represent far more significant and popular ones than say the CBC-CTV-Global point of view, which is ideologically narrow. There is no such BS when it comes to the internet. If I speak arabic I can watch Al Jazeera, or for any given languages I can watch their country's news in cases where they don't bother applying to the CRTC. I can read Fox News articles online. Of course Al Jazeera and Fox News are also subjected to real-world forces, but it is an expanded and more diversified real world than the CBC-CTV-Global axis.

gain, Wikipedia, Arxiv, and babble are three excellent examples. There's more information on wikipedia than has ever been in any encyclopedia. For theoretical math and physics, it's rapidly entrenching its position as a top source of information. BigCityGal argues it's no good for topics such as sexism, let's see:

quote:
Sexism is commonly considered to be discrimination and/or hatred towards people based on their sex rather than their individual merits, but can also refer to any and all systemic differentiations based on the sex of the individuals.

Sexism can refer to subtly different beliefs or attitudes:

* The belief that one gender or sex is inferior to or more valuable than the other;
* Female or male chauvinism
* The attitude of misogyny (hatred of females) or misandry (hatred of males); as well as
* The attitude of imposing a limited and/or false notion of masculinity on males and a limited and/or false notion of femininity on females, or vice versa.
* A feeling of distrust towards the opposite or same sex, most frequently operating at an unconscious level.


Not a terrible opening paragraph. Seems like a good start on the subject, it then goes on for a few thousand words. I do see it's been nominated for a neutrality check, and some people have been screwing with the references. As bad as that is, however, I bet it's vastly superior or at least comparable to what will show up in Britannica. And this is one of the worst cases. I would hope that the left does not do what the far-right is doing and launch their equivalent to conservapedia, let alone Godtube.

Next, babble. BCG mentioned that trolls on babble often reveal themselves. They do, that doesn't mean that nobody could ever take on a false identity. Just because bad trolls are bad trolls doesn't mean there are no competent trolls. People have on various cases assumed that I'm white on babble, and on other boards I've been assumed rich. I could have totally pretended to be white and pulled it off. I remember another community a few years back where one member pretended to be female, even posted a picture. Most bought it. He told me later on it wasn't so. Another individual from that community was Venunzuelan, and we'd often discuss the world over msn and such. One time he told me that he was shocked I wasn't rich, because he didn't know Jewish people could be not rich. (for those curious, my sister and I grew up in the bottom quintile). His perceptions came from the media in his country, and now thanks to the internet there were other ways for him to learn about the world.

Finally, arxiv. The crystalline example from a few months back. Garrett Lisi posted a candidate theory for a theory of everything. He was an independent physicist for a few years, and was eventually hired by the Perimeter Institute. I have no idea how valid his work is as I don't know group theory well enough, but the potential manifests itself quite handsomely there.

[ 03 January 2008: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]


From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
bliter
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posted 03 January 2008 09:17 AM      Profile for bliter   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Boom Boom:

quote:
There are a lot of apps on Facebook that look to be have been put together by fairly immature people.

Such views are evident throughout the medium, but the authors are entitled to express them and we'd better have something of substance to say before attempting cut them off.


From: delta | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 04 January 2008 04:30 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
500, your Wiki post completely confirms my original position.

quote:
BCG: If you want to look up definitions of sexism, racism, fascism, abuse, etc, I would implore you to go elsewhere online.

Anyone who defines sexism in the ways that Wiki does is someone who's never read an original thought from an actual feminist. NO feminist theory reads as the Wiki entry does.

This made me chuckle:

quote:
While the view that women are superior to men is also sexism, only in recent years has such awareness begun to develop in public discourse[citation needed].

Ha! The first sentence is patently incorrect. And the note at the end! Teehee! Damn right citation needed! Um, dudes, ever heard of Ashley Montagu (a man) who wrote in, oh, the early 1900s about women's superiority to men? No? I figured.

For the record, Montagu is full of it, but he's out there, as anyone reasonably versed in feminism would know.

Please stick to using Wiki for finding the number of ST:TNG episodes in which Data gets laid. I beg of you.

So, thanks 500!

It would never occur to me to look up the definition of sexism in Britannica. I bet they have a great definition of colonialism, most certainly NOT vetted for "neutrality" a concept that is pee-in-your-pants laughable.

And bliter, you'd be much happier if you read and absorbed the points that have actually been made here about my reasoning and thoughts behind starting this thread, and the action that I'm asking those who feel the same as I do, to do.


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 January 2008 09:57 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To reinforce bigcitygal's point about relying on Wikipedia for any information that is related to anti-oppression studies or movements...here's how actual, real live FEMINISTS (not mostly white guys who edit Wikipedia) define sexism:

quote:
Short definition: Sexism is both discrimination based on gender and the attitudes, stereotypes, and the cultural elements that promote this discrimination. Given the historical and continued imbalance of power, where men as a class are privileged over women as a class (see male privilege), an important, but often overlooked, part of the term is that sexism is prejudice plus power. Thus feminists reject the notion that women can be sexist towards men because women lack the institutional power that men have.

Read on for the difference between sexism and gender-based prejudice.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 06 January 2008 10:14 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Michelle, if you love finallyfeminism101 so much, then why don't you marry it?
From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 06 January 2008 10:32 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
...here's how actual, real live FEMINISTS (not mostly white guys who edit Wikipedia) define sexism:

quote:
Sexism is both discrimination based on gender and the attitudes, stereotypes, and the cultural elements that promote this discrimination. Given the historical and continued imbalance of power, where men as a class are privileged over women as a class

This should make my points about the stereotype of "motherhood issues" a bit clearer to some actually. It is both a cultural element and a stereotype, that though it appears to mean little at at first blush, it has incideous connotations and none of them actually support motherhood or recognizse the dismissing of the unequal plight of woman as mothers.

There are so very many of these salt and peppered through our slang discourse, that it becomes trying to continually point them out. Trying for both the sender of the message that it inappropriate and the recipient of the message, in fact. However, seemingly at first glance innocuous stereotypes must be challenged each and every time they are observed.

There are reasons why womans equality strivations have not progressed further, and the ignoring of what are actually "little murders of equality rights" I believe is one of the reasons.

Woman give way, when people take exception to our taking exception, usually because we then get negative labelling, like we are; paranoid, delusional, hysterical, ornery, abusive, and self preservation instincts start because they are esteem dimishing actions. These words and stereotypes silence feminist and woman's voices in general.

And that silencing must be fought against, even though our instincts for self preservation kick in.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 06 January 2008 12:34 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:
Michelle, if you love finallyfeminism101 so much, then why don't you marry it?

Maybe I will!


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 06 January 2008 12:50 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:
[QB]
Please stick to using Wiki for finding the number of ST:TNG episodes in which Data gets laid. I beg of you.


I feel cheated. Once brought up I was dying to know the answer and I can't find it on Wiki. Now I will never know, how will I get the rest of my work done today. Jeez I'll probably be up all night now trying to work it out in my head. Oh well maybe I will clean the toilet, even behind it or some other form of 'been together almost 20 years' foreplay if I am up anyway.
Thanks for nothing


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
rural - Francesca
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posted 06 January 2008 02:06 PM      Profile for rural - Francesca   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Tasha Yar is the only one 'for sure', the others are simply suggestions without clarification

It keeps taking part of the url and making a smilie out of it :mad:

Data's sex life

ok found the "turn off smilies" bit

[ 06 January 2008: Message edited by: rural - Francesca ]


From: the backyard | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
Volunteer Moderator
Babbler # 8938

posted 06 January 2008 04:31 PM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Bookish and Francesca:

There was the one with Tasha.

There was the one with the woman who's name I forget who Data was just "trying" out a relationship with. A memorable moment was when they were kissing she asked him what he was thinking about and he listed a bunch of kooky things including developing a new cat food formula for his cat Spot and how much pressure to apply to her lips.

If movies count he got it on with the Borg Queen in First Contact.

That's from my brain, folks. A scary place indeed.


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
rural - Francesca
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posted 06 January 2008 05:38 PM      Profile for rural - Francesca   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
...and Data's batteries never ran out *sigh*
From: the backyard | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged

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