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Author Topic: Now we're doomed - the $2500 car comes to India
Doug
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posted 31 December 2007 10:29 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Ratan Tata, head of the tea-to-steel Tata conglomerate, will unveil the "People's Car" January 10 at a New Delhi auto show that will carry a sticker price of 100,000 rupees, or 2,500 dollars, which some analysts say could revolutionise automobile costs worldwide.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hw07-JJk3RFdcyBRu_fqNPgOHBNw

Worse yet, who are we to say that they can't start driving them?


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 31 December 2007 11:11 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We could enact a rule that the only people entitled to whine about India or China's automobile park are the ones living in no-private motor vehicle households.
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
500_Apples
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posted 31 December 2007 11:20 AM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The only short-term prospect for western and japanese car makers is to make "better cars" which justify the higher price. In the long run, there will be no first world manufacturing industry.
From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 31 December 2007 11:36 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
We could enact a rule that the only people entitled to whine about India or China's automobile park are the ones living in no-private motor vehicle households.

Good - then I shall whine.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
bliter
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posted 31 December 2007 11:46 AM      Profile for bliter   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
NOW....we're doomed? I think, as far as the automobile is concerned, we've been doomed for a long time.

The car may have done much to build the economy of N. America, but if and when a truthful history of our times is written, it should reveal that the car continues to be among the biggest con-jobs perpetrated against a naive public, both in the product and the cost.


From: delta | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 31 December 2007 12:04 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We could be driving internal combustion hydrogen cars anytime soon. The only obstacles to that are big monopolizing oil companies and their friends in the Pentagon using oil as an excuse to pursue neocolonialism around the world.

Hydrogen combustion engines could be a bridge to hydrogen cars powered by fuel cells. Imagine that there are no more excuses to march into other countries and declare local people loitering around in their birth countries the enemies of freedom and democracy. Imagine ...


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
bliter
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posted 31 December 2007 12:14 PM      Profile for bliter   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Some interesting points you make, Fidel.

Are you suggesting that if I had, say, a gasoline-engined vehicle that had a propane conversion, that if I were to fill the tank with hydrogen instead of propane, that the vehicle would function satisfactorilly?

With so much hydrogen out there, questions too obvious come to mind.


From: delta | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 02 January 2008 08:44 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
At best Hydrogen contains 65% of the fuel that was used to produce it. Then when you actually process the Hydrogen to reconvert it to electricty in your fuel cell car has a 65% recovery rate at best.

30 - 40% efficient at best. Hydrogen is not the answer.

Electric is up to 90% efficiency.


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 02 January 2008 11:09 AM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:
At best Hydrogen contains 65% of the fuel that was used to produce it. Then when you actually process the Hydrogen to reconvert it to electricty in your fuel cell car has a 65% recovery rate at best.

30 - 40% efficient at best. Hydrogen is not the answer.

Electric is up to 90% efficiency.


The hydrogen fuel cell can be mass produced but there are reasons the technology has limited uses. there are difficult issues involving transportation, storage and delivery of hydrogen that make the electric vehicle a better option.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
farnival
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posted 02 January 2008 11:16 AM      Profile for farnival     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:

Electric is up to 90% efficiency.


New York woos Ontario's electric car, boat makers

quote:
...Montgomery Gisborne, who runs Tamarack Lake Electric Boat Company, said the millions in innovation funding offered by the New York State Energy Research Development Authority were a major factor in his decision to move the company to Rome, N.Y., in the next few months.

The company, which makes a variety of electric boats including one that uses solar power, is currently based in Brechin, Ont., on the east side of Lake Simcoe.

At least two other companies — Mississauga-based electric carmaker Electrovaya and a firm that is developing electric ice resurfacing machines — are also applying for funding from NYSERDA and considering a move south....

...In Ontario, Gisborne said, "I haven't heard anything like that and any efforts to promote these electric vehicle technologies, be it with wheels or hulls, has met with such resistance and such friction."...



and we continue to literally "miss the boat".


From: where private gain trumps public interest, and apparently that's just dandy. | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
bliter
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posted 02 January 2008 01:50 PM      Profile for bliter   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I get a little sick of some of these Research and Development beggars at the public trough. Much of it, I believe, to be a tax-funded boondoggle that has actually held back progress - particularly in transportation.

For over twenty years the auto-industry has pointed to the promise of the hydrogen fuel cell while giving little attention to other alternatives to the internal combustion engine. The technology, certainly from local experience, appears to have been more concerned with stock promotion.

With the numerous puff pieces over the years, a compliant media has contributed nothing,in my opinion.

ETA

This, from Fidel's link: (CBC News):

quote:
Four of Ford's $250,000 US buses currently are in service in Orlando, two at the airport and two with the convention bureau. The buses' range is limited to 240-320 kilometres by fuel storage technology, and they cost far more than the roughly $70,000 US Ford charges for shuttles powered by gas engines.

The BS is glaringly evident here for all to see.
Both buses have internal combustion engines but one has been modified to burn hydrogen at an additional cost of $180,000. I'm sure this is excellent technology, and I'd like to see all diesel buses so converted - but not at such a ridiculous penalty.

[ 02 January 2008: Message edited by: bliter ]

Edited to remove "invading" smilie.

[ 02 January 2008: Message edited by: bliter ]


From: delta | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
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posted 02 January 2008 03:28 PM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
At the risk of getting this thread back on topic, the opening post talked about a $2,500 car. Add all the duty you want and it's still 25% of the price of anything produced in North America. Unless this is an absolute piece of garbage it spells the end of the Big 3 (and the UAW/CAW as well - add their pension plans to the list of those expected to go bust at the same time).
From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 02 January 2008 03:37 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Don't know anything about the car. But you can bet it fails to pass a whack of safety and pollution control standards required in North America and the EU.

Not to say that the big multinationals could not produce a cheaper and simpler car meeting all standards... but we are not comparing apples to apples, let alone will this be a threat in domestic markets.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 02 January 2008 05:04 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am looking forward to comparing the pollution output of that 2,500$ car and that of a Hummer - or for that matter of your garden-variety gasoline lawn mower... phewwww!
One equitable solution would be to institute a quota of internal-combustion engine vehicles per, say, dozen of people, with mammoth penalties for countries exceeding the quota, military vehicles included. But of course the "Western Alliance" juggernaut will destroy the planet before agreeing to that.
Another will be when gas prices reach 20$ or 50$/litre.

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 02 January 2008 05:12 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I am looking forward to comparing the pollution output of that 2,500$ car and that of a Hummer - or for that matter of your garden-variety gasoline lawn mower... phewwww!

I'm sure the Hummer puts out more pollution, and that is a good thing to go after.

But the Hummer meets standards, and the Tata presumably does not and could not.

[Its also a good illustration of the problem with 'intensity based targets' that writ to macro scale are what the Harper crew wants to be the only thing for Canada.]


The now standard lawn mower will be not available in the US- and hopefully Canada- before cheap cars could be coming.

[ 02 January 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 02 January 2008 06:06 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The cheap car, a pet project of Cornell-trained architect Ratan Tata that he helped design, is aimed at getting India's masses off their motorbikes and into cars.

"That's what drove me -- a man on a two-wheeler with a child standing in front, his wife sitting behind, add to that the wet roads -- a family in potential danger."

Tata says the car will create no more pollution than a motorbike and is confident of its success.



Do we know if he is wrong about the pollution it will create?

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 02 January 2008 06:16 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by KenS:
I'm sure the Hummer puts out more pollution, and that is a good thing to go after.

Presumably the Hummer has the same pollution controlling devices as on every American-made car and truck, but because it's such a huge vehicle and presumably a much bigger engine than your average small car, there's likely to be more of those emissions than the average small car. And, the Hummer uses more much fuel to go the same distance as a small car. So, the Hummer is not only more polluting, it's more wasteful of resouces, and butt-ugly to boot.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 02 January 2008 06:21 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by abnormal:
At the risk of getting this thread back on topic, the opening post talked about a $2,500 car. Add all the duty you want and it's still 25% of the price of anything produced in North America. Unless this is an absolute piece of garbage it spells the end of the Big 3 (and the UAW/CAW as well - add their pension plans to the list of those expected to go bust at the same time).


I suspect it is a piece of crap, and very unlikely to be exported overseas - I think the article makes it clear it's meant to be sold in India alone - which is still a potentially large market for this type of vehicle. If it's going to be sold overseas, the price will increase substantially because it will have to pass our safety and emissions standards. And - remember the Lada? - it will likely have a really small receptive buyer base here.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 02 January 2008 06:22 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Tata says the car will create no more pollution than a motorbike and is confident of its success.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do we know if he is wrong about the pollution it will create?

His comparisn is to motorbikes in Asia, which are outrageously bad. On a par with our lawn mowers.

quote:
If it's going to be sold overseas, the price will increase substantially because it will have to pass our safety and emissions standards.

It won't be able to pass crash and roll standards without a complete redesign that is not feasible.

[ 02 January 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
bliter
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posted 02 January 2008 06:49 PM      Profile for bliter   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Too many negative assumptions here.

I'm sure there would be many orders they can fill at home before they need to export - or are able to.

The cleaner and safer the car, the more obstacles will be contrived to keep it out. Hell, we'll probably even have government and Labor forming a partnership on that one.


From: delta | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 02 January 2008 07:06 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Do we know if he is wrong about the pollution it will create?
-------------------------------------------------
His comparison is to motorbikes in Asia, which are outrageously bad.

My comparison is with any two-cycle motorbike; they are notorious polluters.
And I doubt I'll live to see the government that will dare to impound 2-cyle engine lawnmowers.
Wake up and smell the charcoal: the treatment given this piece of news is one more instance of Third World bashing, conveniently obscuring the fact that it is our First World that remains and by far the worst polluter in the world.
Let's not get suckered into pointig fingers at the rabble who dares think of challenging our monopoly...

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 02 January 2008 08:12 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:

Let's not get suckered into pointig fingers at the rabble who dares think of challenging our monopoly...

Which monopoly would that be?

From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 02 January 2008 08:21 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Have your pick... The near-monopoly on greenhouse gas emissions per country. That on motor vehicle production. The political appropriation of oil producing regions. The discourse about Whom Is To Blame...
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 02 January 2008 08:33 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ah yes, your "holier than thou" routine...

It is possible that people of good will and the best intentions might fret upon realizing that no matter how hard they work to minimize their own environmental impact, the 'progress' of the third world will doom the planet - and sadly, the citizens of that third world, first and foremost.


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 02 January 2008 09:11 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Go ahead, say it... "serves 'em right!"
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
bliter
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posted 03 January 2008 09:55 AM      Profile for bliter   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
LTJ:

quote:
It is possible that people of good will and the best intentions might fret upon realizing that no matter how hard they work to minimize their own environmental impact, the 'progress' of the third world will doom the planet - and sadly, the citizens of that third world, first and foremost.

http://www.yangtzeriver.org/threegorges_dam/index.htm

I don't doubt, with some, there will be an undercurrent of racism when discussing product quality.

As far as efforts to curb pollution are concerned, China is probably home to more electric vehicles, per capital, than any country in the world - also home to the world's biggest hydro-electric dam.

[ 03 January 2008: Message edited by: bliter ]


From: delta | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 03 January 2008 10:24 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
We could be driving internal combustion hydrogen cars anytime soon. The only obstacles to that are big monopolizing oil companies and their friends in the Pentagon using oil as an excuse to pursue neocolonialism around the world.

Hydrogen combustion engines could be a bridge to hydrogen cars powered by fuel cells. Imagine that there are no more excuses to march into other countries and declare local people loitering around in their birth countries the enemies of freedom and democracy. Imagine ...


Ratcheting down oil consumption would be great. It will happen eventually (it's going to run out relatively soon) but the sooner the better.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 03 January 2008 10:49 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just keep in mind that there are practical obstacles to forein produced cheap cars that are not product quality or pretectionism or other suc criteria.

A cheap car designed for Third World markets will not have crash and roll protection, and their design doesn't allow for feasibly adding them on.

Even pollution control add-ons are questionable for their cost effectiveness.

A cheap car for developed markets has to be designed for them from the bottom up. My lay knoweldge falls short of even allowing me an educated guess of how feasible such a beast is- and the lack of interest of multinationals has its effect. But that explains only so much. It would be a big market for the outlier company that wanted to do it. I suspect its not that easy.

Look at a Mercedes Smart Car. It's about as stripped down and simple as you can imagine. [Don't be fooled by the Mercedes moniker- design and targett wise, its more like their very proletarian trucks.] It ain't cheap.

I'm inlcined to agree that 'cheap cars' and hybrids for our markets are losing propositions except for short term improvements over where we are now. The answer lies in less reliance on purely personal vehicles, and simple all electric for those.

All electric isn't cheap either. But appication of will and resources will get there in a way that tinkering on internal combustion, diesel, and hybrids probably never will get to cheap and safe mass produced.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 03 January 2008 12:47 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think the Yanks and Canada should be building more east-west and north-south rail instead of a NAFTA superhighway. And let's hope California's testbed for hydrogen highway proves to be a success.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 03 January 2008 03:47 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you scroll down on this link, you'll learn Canadians get 41 miles to the gallon of beer.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
bliter
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posted 03 January 2008 04:15 PM      Profile for bliter   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
I think the Yanks and Canada should be building more east-west and north-south rail instead of a NAFTA superhighway. And let's hope California's testbed for hydrogen highway proves to be a success.

You've been reading my mail.

It's all drawn up, the three countries, fully electrified, coast to coast to coast, encompassing all major cities, powered by photo-voltaic canopy along total the length except at stations, overpasses and tunnels. The canopies also reduce snow clearance and assist in water conservation.

Twin monorail and mag-lev have been chosen and, where distances between stops permit, service speed will average 568 kph.

The announcement is imminent, awaiting funding decisions.


From: delta | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 03 January 2008 04:24 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mag-lev? Is that still on? That will cost a bob or two, eh bliter.

And funding decisions! I think the U.S. will need another FDR for this to happen. And Ottawa will do whatever Washington suggests we should do.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 03 January 2008 07:12 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
the treatment given this piece of news is one more instance of Third World bashing, conveniently obscuring the fact that it is our First World that remains and by far the worst polluter in the world.

Part and parcel of the convenient obscuration is that the greenhouse gases produced and the fossil fuels consumed there by and large belong to us.

Yes, there is a rise of a middle-class in China and India complete with predilection for conspicuous consumption, but, still, the lion's share of what is produced in those countries are destined for the shelves of Wal-Marts and dollar stores in North America and Europe. We not only off-shored our production and labour, but a good part of our pollution and energy consumption as well.

That way we can blame the Chinese and Indians for not doing their part in reducing CO2 emissions while we drive another car load to mini-storage while on the way passing dump trucks with loads destined for the landfill.

Its so comforting to be able to be self-righteous and hypocritical all at the same time.

Here is something to reflect upon:

quote:
Per capita consumption rates in China are still about 11 times below ours, but let’s suppose they rise to our level. Let’s also make things easy by imagining that nothing else happens to increase world consumption — that is, no other country increases its consumption, all national populations (including China’s) remain unchanged and immigration ceases. China’s catching up alone would roughly double world consumption rates. Oil consumption would increase by 106 percent, for instance, and world metal consumption by 94 percent.

If India as well as China were to catch up, world consumption rates would triple. If the whole developing world were suddenly to catch up, world rates would increase elevenfold. It would be as if the world population ballooned to 72 billion people (retaining present consumption rates).



Jared Diamond

[ 03 January 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 03 January 2008 07:28 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess: JDiamond said:
If India as well as China were to catch up, world consumption rates would triple. If the whole developing world were suddenly to catch up, world rates would increase elevenfold. It would be as if the world population ballooned to 72 billion people (retaining present consumption rates)

I wonder who pressured them throughout the cold war to adopt economies based on consumption? Somebody screwed up.

[ 03 January 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
bliter
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posted 03 January 2008 07:39 PM      Profile for bliter   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fidel:

quote:
Mag-lev? Is that still on? That will cost a bob or two, eh bliter.

Definitely mag-lev. And the immeasurable safety advantages of "locked on" monorail stock, with much-reduced, cornering speed restrictions, determined the decision.

As we pored over the blueprints, however, I have to tell you that G.W. got pretty pissed with me when I ventured that, were it not for the trillions gone to his "illegal" war, that half the system could have been up and financing itself already.

All were agreed that there would be a 75/87 per cent decrease in continental air passenger bookings and that on most trips under 1,000 kilometers the travel time, city center to city center, would be significantly reduced.

The excess power from the finished, canopied track
would, of course, go to the grid to help finance the system.


From: delta | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 03 January 2008 08:12 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It sounds good to me. This economy could rrrreally be bustling if it wasn't for a lack of imagination and effort in high places.

Even smaller scale Mag-lev wind turbines spinning on a breeze


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 03 January 2008 08:17 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by bliter:
Definitely mag-lev.

Will the Americans let China get ahead of them?

China's mag-lev pilot project, to ShangHai's PuDong airport, is to be extended around 170 km to HangZhou, as well as to the other ShangHai airport, HongQiao. The environmental assessment is now open for citizens to comment on until January 15.

The project Germany could have been first with, from Berlin to Hamburg, if they hadn't blinked. Now the best they are likely to do is a ten-minute ride to the airport in Munich.


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 04 January 2008 03:58 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Yesterday, in a move reflecting the trend, retail giant Wal-Mart said it will now operate 25 of its Canadian stores 24 hours a day, including one in London, making it the first around-the-clock Canadian department store.

Living off the fat of the land 24 hours a day.

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 04 January 2008 05:11 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Kinda shows how completely bogus their two store green initiative is, doesn't it?

How well does two green stores balance out 25 round-the-clock operations?

[ 04 January 2008: Message edited by: Lard Tunderin' Jeezus ]


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 04 January 2008 06:51 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well what's wrong with this image:

The image is an excellent example of what Klein talks about in No Logo - the creation of an image of what people want but don't get.

Notice the landscaping. There are trees! Notice everyone is walking. No one is loaded down carrying bags and no one is pushing a cart. And best of all, not a car to be seen!

What does the latest experimental store in Colorado really look like like?


Google Maps

[ 04 January 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 January 2008 06:59 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Heh. The paved paradise is a little different, isn't it??
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 04 January 2008 07:02 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's worse than that. I had the wrong map.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
farnival
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posted 04 January 2008 07:36 AM      Profile for farnival     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Indian car maker may land Jaguar, Land Rover

quote:
DETROIT -- An Indian car maker that will unveil the world's cheapest car next week may soon produce two of the world's premier brands as well.

Ford Motor Co. yesterday named Tata Motors Ltd. the top bidder for its Jaguar and Land Rover brands, and entered into "focused negotiations at a more detailed level," meaning Tata was named preferred bidder for the storied British auto makers.


the irony here is delicious really. a former colonial subject potentially owning a signature car maker from it's former oppressor, not to mention all the luxury car owning snobs now possessing a vehicle from the same company making the cheapest car on earth.

perhaps the anti-car revolution will be realised by the elites who no longer have any social caché with the kind of car they own, and walking, bicycles, and public transit will be the new hip!


From: where private gain trumps public interest, and apparently that's just dandy. | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
bliter
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posted 10 January 2008 11:09 PM      Profile for bliter   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, here it is. And not a bad looker. Very much interest, apparently, at the unveiling. One positive result, already, is that this has Suzuki, that sells many vehicles in India, looking at the pricing of its vehicles:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7180396.stm


From: delta | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 10 January 2008 11:22 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maximum speed of 70 km/h?!... Why that's... BLASPHEMY!!! I wonder how its price compares with the prices of other microcars of yesteryear, at the time of their introduction: the Messerschmitt KR200 (Peter Sellers' car in "The Party"), the Citroen 2CV, the Fiat 850...

[ 10 January 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 11 January 2008 07:59 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yah, years ago I traveled with some nice people in one of these Citroen 2CV's through France ,Spain and Portugal. Great car, a classic,
No need to bring lawn chairs to a beach party. A few clips and the seats could be taken out and carried to the beach. It was slow, but what better way to experience the surroundings one travels through. Something like that, maybe with a bit better heater, would just serve me fine here in the country. The long spring travel would make it seem like sailing on a boat through the country side.

From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 11 January 2008 08:34 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Messerschmitt KR200 (Peter Sellers' car in "The Party")

Wrong, wrong, wrong! Peter Sellers car in The Party was a Morgan Three Wheeler, otherwise known as the Moggie Trike by collectors.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 11 January 2008 08:42 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I brought a new 1968 Austin Mini Cooper and it lasted a long time, and the guy who brought it from me modified it for racing. The standard Mini was one of the cheapest cars in North America at the time, competitive with the Beetle IIRC. Before the Mini, I had a new Sunbeam Imp Sport that was a bit more expensive than the Mini Cooper, but it was a very sophisicated modifcation of the standard Imp - racing shocks, suspension, wheels, tires, and the rear-mounted engine was modified with a racing cam and carbs. Sadly, it was even worse in the winter than the Beetle, so I traded it in for the much better Mini. That ended my love affair with English cars - after the Mini I really wanted a Mustang.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 11 January 2008 10:54 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Wrong, wrong, wrong! Peter Sellers car in The Party was a Morgan Three Wheeler...
I stand connected.
The $2,500 figure seems very impressive but I wonder what it amounts to, in terms of the mean annual salary in India. Even computer programmers are typically paid only $7,500/yr or so. The Nano will probaby cost those rare Indians who will be able to buy one a lot more than a subcompact costs us. (Not counting repairs - parts are *glued* together.)

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 11 January 2008 11:18 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
I stand corrected.

Morgans - both the three wheelers and four wheelers - were never cheap, either. They were very labour intensive, and built on wooden frames, although I think the modern Morgan has a steel frame, but I lost interest in Morgans years ago, and haven't kept up with them.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 11 January 2008 02:15 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm pretty sure that this car is cheaper in inflation adjusted dollars than a 60s 2CV.

And roughly speaking I'd say that it's more affordable for that Indian programmer who pays 1/3 of a years salary for it, than was the affordability of a used 2 CV for a 70s French autoworker. [Different classes, but comparable income standing].


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
bliter
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posted 13 January 2008 03:47 PM      Profile for bliter   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Editorial boost

Here's a thought. This car could be bought with the depreciation of many vehicles today, as they leave the showroom.

edited to add excerpt:

quote:
It is true that in India's booming economy -- as in China's -- greenhouse-gas emissions are projected to increase dramatically over the next 30 years.

But that in itself is no reason to deny the people of the world's developing nations the material benefits westerners have enjoyed for decades.

An anonymous website contributor in India put it best: "Why does the rich man frown when a poor man gets a car to protect his family from harsh weather? "All we have to do is find an alternative method of fuelling which will not pollute." Judging by the current pace of technological change, we're well on our way to doing just that.


Well said.

[ 13 January 2008: Message edited by: bliter ]


From: delta | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged

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