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Author Topic: Will Katrina break Bush? (the real thread)
deBeauxOs
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posted 02 September 2005 11:39 AM      Profile for deBeauxOs     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Back to the topic since the first thread has gone south. For starters -
quote:
posted by blacklisted:
i think what could sink GWB is his turning once again to DAD for help. and senior saying on the tube that "he can take the critiscism, he's a big boy". this is the time for a leader, not daddy's big boy playing cowboy.
and asking Bill Clinton to help his dad bail him out goes a long way to totally destroying any remaining credibility he has. not because its Bill, but because a lot of folks will remember all the BS about Clinton that went on in the late stages, yet here he is called on to pull the little ape's nuts out of the fire. Clinton might be able to bury george junior quietly from the senior statesman chair.

For Sven and anyone else who likes spin drift here is some advice: start your own topic and see if anyone shows up.


From: missing in action | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 September 2005 12:35 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Check out CNN right now - you can watch a videoclip (or read the transcript) of the Mayor of New Orleans tearing up one side of the feds and down the other for the lack of response.

http://www.cnn.com/

He is telling them to "get off their asses" and do something. He used "goddamned" a few times because he's so furious. And I don't blame him.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anonymous Coward
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posted 02 September 2005 01:09 PM      Profile for Anonymous Coward     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was thinking, could you consider Canadian assistance to victims of Katrina to be the same as support for the war on Iraq?
Picking up the slack for their domestic humanitarian problems enables the US Military to keep their focus on Iraq. This includes Governmental support and charitable support (shame on you, Celine). Any money we send that lightens the burdon on their Government effectively funds their Military actions.
Is this valid? Discuss.

[ 02 September 2005: Message edited by: Anonymous Coward ]

[ 02 September 2005: Message edited by: Anonymous Coward ]

[ 02 September 2005: Message edited by: Anonymous Coward ]


From: Terra | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
faith
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posted 02 September 2005 01:10 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks Michelle that was a very powerful broadcast.
From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
CHCMD
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posted 02 September 2005 02:13 PM      Profile for CHCMD   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I think Canada should help out if Dubbya lets us in - can't punish those poor refugees just 'cause their president is a complete fuck-up.
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rinne
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posted 02 September 2005 02:22 PM      Profile for rinne     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Leonard Cohen sang, “I will decide what is rotten and what is fresh”. This great tragedy has given a face to what is truly rotten within the power structure of the elite and it appears that there is little that is fresh, but the interview was powerful and thank you for the link Michelle. The authentic grief of the mayor and interviewer and their willingness to speak the truth cuts through all the bullshit voices of the other politicians.

The response to 911 was immediate and substantial but then 911 was the key to war and Bush hadn’t won his second term. Further, the vast majority of people were united in their support for Bush after 911. That is no longer true. It appears to me that Bush and crew have become so arrogant that they think they can get away with BLAH BLAH BLAH. Bush plays the guitar, Condaleeza shops for shoes and New Orleans dies.

Will the Bush government survive? No.


From: prairies | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
ephemeral
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posted 02 September 2005 02:25 PM      Profile for ephemeral     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Coward:
I was thinking, could you consider Canadian assistance to victims of Katrina to be the same as support for the war on Iraq?
Picking up the slack for their domestic humanitarian problems enable the US Military to keep their focus on Iraq. This includes Governmental support and charitable support (shame on you, Celine).
Is this valid? Discuss.

no, it's not the same. katrina doesn't change what's happening in iraq. bush isn't hastily bringing troops over from iraq to help in new orleans. and the national guards that are helping weren't scheduled to go to iraq any time soon. this is really not about choosing between saving the people of new orleans and saving iraqis.


From: under a bridge with a laptop | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 02 September 2005 02:28 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lots of articles: here's a few:

Paul Krugman, NYT:

quote:
...I don't think this is a simple tale of incompetence. The reason the military wasn't rushed in to help along the Gulf Coast is, I believe, the same reason nothing was done to stop looting after the fall of Baghdad. Flood control was neglected for the same reason our troops in Iraq didn't get adequate armor.

At a fundamental level, I'd argue, our current leaders just aren't serious about some of the essential functions of government. They like waging war, but they don't like providing security, rescuing those in need or spending on preventive measures. And they never, ever ask for shared sacrifice...


Right on, I would say.

Greg Palast: (Did somebody mention ""Huey Long?):

quote:
...Then, as the waters rose, one politician finally said, roughly, "Screw this! They're lying! The President's lying! The rich fat cats that are drowning you will do it again and again and again. They lead you into imperialist wars for profit, they take away your schools and your hope and when you complain, they blame Blacks and Jews and immigrants. Then they push your kids under. I say, Kick'm in the ass and take your rightful share!"

Huey Long laid out a plan: a progressive income tax, real money for education, public works to rebuild Louisiana and America, an end to wars for empire, and an end to financial oligarchy. The waters receded, the anger did not, and Huey "Kingfish" Long was elected Governor of Louisiana in 1928...

...Where is our Huey Long? America needs just one Kingfish to stand up and say that our nation must rid itself of the scarecrow with the idiot chuckle, who has left America broken and in danger while he plays tinker-toy Napoleon on other continents...


And a couple of roundups of world opinion:

Andrew Gray, Reuters

BBC article:

quote:
...Taipei's Taiwan News

New Orleans may go down in history as the first major city in an advanced country to be lost to the process of global warming... We sincerely hope that the Bush administration will take the call from Hurricane Katrina and reconsider its energy and environmental policies and replace ostrich-like escapism with leadership in the global effort to deal with the crisis of global climatic change....



From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Robert Pike
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posted 02 September 2005 02:33 PM      Profile for Robert Pike        Edit/Delete Post
The big question is why? Why should Canada help? It's true people are people but the Canadian people as a whole are just going to get bit in the a$$ in the end. We helped during Sept. 11 and what happened? Softwood tariffs ring a bell to anyone? Bombing 4 of our troops and we never got a decent apology until like 2 years later! Again I ask why should we help? Spend our time, money, and other resources on a country that is totally ignorant of us. We are always shown disrespect from Americans. They claim their military protects Canada and their economy rules the west yet come a disaster, no matter how small or large, and they look to the north for help?!?! It's like the boy who cried wolf. It's a simple thing to keep crying for the fun of it and not think about what you're doing BUT when the time comes to cry and mean it and there's no one there to help the bitter truth shows through. You aren't as damn mighty and invincible as you'd like to think. I believe I heard one american say "Why did this happen? This is America!". I'm still trying to figure out which had more BS associated with it, that one or al Quada (however spelled out) saying this was their god's doing and that they hoped for $200 a barrel. I guess it was another god killing all those Muslims with the tsunami.
From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
ephemeral
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posted 02 September 2005 02:39 PM      Profile for ephemeral     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
i just see this as helping human beings who are in desperate need of help. nothing more. i don't expect anything in return, and i don't see this as aiding a corrupt government. why is this so hard for some people to grasp? or is this just a diverson from bush's incompetence? if that's the case, i'll stop engaging this line of debate.

[ 02 September 2005: Message edited by: ephemeral ]


From: under a bridge with a laptop | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 02 September 2005 02:46 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
New Orleans mayor blasts feds

quote:
And I'll tell you, man, I'm probably going get in a whole bunch of trouble. I'm probably going to get in so much trouble it ain't even funny. You probably won't even want to deal with me after this interview is over.

...

But we authorized $8 billion to go to Iraq lickety-quick. After 9/11, we gave the president unprecedented powers lickety-quick to take care of New York and other places.

Now, you mean to tell me that a place where most of your oil is coming through, a place that is so unique when you mention New Orleans anywhere around the world, everybody's eyes light up -- you mean to tell me that a place where you probably have thousands of people that have died and thousands more that are dying every day, that we can't figure out a way to authorize the resources that we need? Come on, man.

You know, I'm not one of those drug addicts. I am thinking very clearly.

And I don't know whose problem it is. I don't know whether it's the governor's problem. I don't know whether it's the president's problem, but somebody needs to get their ass on a plane and sit down, the two of them, and figure this out right now.
...
I don't want to see anybody do anymore goddamn press conferences. Put a moratorium on press conferences. Don't do another press conference until the resources are in this city. And then come down to this city and stand with us when there are military trucks and troops that we can't even count.

Don't tell me 40,000 people are coming here. They're not here. It's too doggone late. Now get off your asses and do something, and let's fix the biggest goddamn crisis in the history of this country.



From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 02 September 2005 03:03 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Scientific American published this prescient article in 2001. The policies they suggest were axed by the Bush Administration:

quote:
A major hurricane could swamp New Orleans under 20 feet of water, killing thousands. Human activities along the Mississippi River have dramatically increased the risk, and now only massive reengineering of southeastern Louisiana can save the city .

Sidescroll is the work of the devil.

[ 02 September 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 02 September 2005 03:31 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Don't know whether this turns out to be major, but it's something to keep an eye on.

quote:

A huge oil spill was spotted near two storage tanks on the Mississippi River downstream from New Orleans, state officials said Friday.

The oil was seen in a flyover to the Venice area by the Department of Environmental Quality.

''Two tanks with the capacity of holding 2 million barrels appear to be leaking,'' the department said in a statement.


http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Katrina-Oil-Spill-HK4.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 September 2005 03:36 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh my god. That's really bad.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 02 September 2005 03:38 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Edit; thanks, Michelle

There are fires and a chemical factory exploded; BBC report

quote:
...The deployment came as thousands were finally taken from the Louisiana Superdome, where up to 20,000 have been corralled amid heat and squalor since Katrina struck.

But up to 60,000 could still be stranded in the city, the US coastguard says...



I just had a nasty thought; they told people to go to the Superdome and the convention centre but did not have food and water there. Were the authorities more concerned with having the people somewhere they could be controlled than providing relief?

[ 02 September 2005: Message edited by: Contrarian ]


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 September 2005 03:40 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course. I think that's pretty obvious.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 02 September 2005 03:51 PM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Contrarian:
I just had a nasty thought; they told people to go to the Superdome and the convention centre but did not have food and water there. Were the authorities more concerned with having the people somewhere they could be controlled than providing relief?

That's certainly possible, though it's also possible that the idea was to have people in one central place to make eventual evacuation easier-- as opposed to having to make 10,000 rescues from 10,000 roof-tops all over the sunken city.


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 02 September 2005 04:34 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Another nasty suggestion from Kos; that Bush delayed aid until he could get there for his faked up photo op. There's a picture of him with a couple of Coast Guard helicopters in the background; why aren't they out rescuing people?

Meanwhile dirt on Mike Brown, director of FEMA who screwed up his last job and papparently lied on his resume.

quote:
...Well, for 3 years Michael Brown was hired and then fired by our IAHA, the International Arabian Horse Assoc. He was an unmitigated, total fucking disaster. I was shocked as hell when captain clueless put him in charge of FEMA a couple of years ago...
Edited: other reports on that thread about money mismanagement in Fla last year; and that the mayor of New Orleans has been asked to relinquish control of the city and has refused.

[ 02 September 2005: Message edited by: Contrarian ]


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Anonymous Coward
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posted 02 September 2005 06:05 PM      Profile for Anonymous Coward     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
A huge oil spill was spotted near two storage tanks on the Mississippi River downstream from New Orleans, state officials said Friday.

Those were just black swimmers.


From: Terra | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 02 September 2005 06:07 PM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Contrarian:
Another nasty suggestion from Kos; that Bush delayed aid until he could get there for his faked up photo op. There's a picture of him with a couple of Coast Guard helicopters in the background; why aren't they out rescuing people?

I found that congratulatory photo-op of Bush's 'briefing' to be disgusting, as well. Even the anchor I was watching asked immediately thereafter, 'he's taking time to get the same information live on camera that he no doubt got back atthe WH, or on AF One.'

That said, hopefully, the helos we saw were those that were being 'maintained.' Usually a squadron has a couple of 'hangar honeys' that seldom fly, and are used for parts.


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
thwap
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posted 02 September 2005 06:22 PM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post
I read in the Greg Palast article linked above that, well, I'll just quote it:

quote:
The National Public Radio news anchor was so excited I thought she'd piss on herself: the President of the United had flown his plane down to 1700 feet to get a better look at the flood damage! And there was a photo of our Commander-in-Chief taken looking out the window. He looked very serious and concerned.
That was yesterday. Today he played golf. No kidding.

Pretty impressive.


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 02 September 2005 06:44 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I liked Palast's next sentence:
quote:
I'm sure the people of New Orleans would have liked to show their appreciation for the official Presidential photo-strafing, but their surface-to-air missiles were wet.

From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 September 2005 06:46 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 02 September 2005 06:48 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, help has finally arrived at the NO Superdome and what are the troops doing, standing there pointing rifles at the stand rooming only crowd, like they're in Baghdad! Old people left out in the sun in their wheelchairs, without medication or care, and officious little jerkasses Still saying everythings fine, we're on it. Racism, classism, or just gross incompetence? If the Bush regime survives *this* then Amerika truly is a lost cause. Ten trillion dollars a year GNP, 280 million citizens, the world's largest security apparatus, and this is the best they can come up with?? Unbelievable.
From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 September 2005 06:51 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Coward:

Those were just black swimmers.


Has this Anonymous Coward been banned, yet?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 02 September 2005 07:03 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
just see this as helping human beings who are in desperate need of help. nothing more. i don't expect anything in return, and i don't see this as aiding a corrupt government. why is this so hard for some people to grasp? or is this just a diver son from bush's incompetence? if that's the case, i'll stop engaging this line of debate.

I agree with you completely. We should not be using these people who need us the most due to political games. There are people in desperate need of assistance, and we should be there to help. Bush can fuck off.

Playing golf?? He just has to go. I don't think anyone can take another 3 years.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
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posted 02 September 2005 08:44 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just saw this on the news, Canada is sending four naval ships to help the victims in Louisiana.

Canadian Warships to sail to Louisiana


From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
faith
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posted 02 September 2005 08:56 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The rescue team from BC left yesterday but couldn't set up due to security concerns, apparently they've now found a place for them to set up operations.
Let's hope the Sea Kings hold up.

From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
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posted 02 September 2005 09:03 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I doubt the Sea Kings will fly. They have a very poor track recorded the last few times that have been out.
From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
blacklisted
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posted 02 September 2005 09:05 PM      Profile for blacklisted     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
the cavalry is on the way. a litle late,and with some scorch marks on their boots, but maybe now the US can get it together.
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display?content=4781

From: nelson,bc | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
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posted 02 September 2005 09:07 PM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How long did it take the cavalry to arrive after Andrew? If memory serves correctly it was at least this long.

With respect to the Sea Kings, Chretien refused to fly on them and got a lift from the US Airforce on one of their choppers.


From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 02 September 2005 09:18 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
warpedhalo
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posted 02 September 2005 09:20 PM      Profile for warpedhalo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The mayor of New Orleans is trying is trying to act the hero but is just as guilty as Bush. The resources were available since Saturday after a state of emergency was called, and everyone knew this was coming. Mayor Nagin waited until the last second to order an evacuation and didn't provide the means for poor people to evacuate. School buses would have done the job if the foresight had been there on the mayor's part. Why wasn't the Superdome stocked with supplies? The Mayor knew this was coming and did nothing. And now the blame game begins. The feds deserve a lot of blame, but Nagin deserves an ass-kicking as well.
From: Alberta | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 02 September 2005 09:33 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's plenty of blame to go around, of course. And a lot was unavoidable given the humungous size of the disaster, but the lack of organization all the way along reflects badly on the whole state planning structure and those still running it. How much was cut out of the state's disaster relief budgets previous, 24 million a year, more perhaps? Has anything ever been done to reverse some of the loss of the alluvial Delta due to excess water diversion? Could other means have been tried to get at least the elderly and infirm out of the sun and back into proper care? How long does it really take to get troops and 7,000 national guard where they needed to go, five whole days, more?? Inexcusable.
From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 02 September 2005 10:22 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There IS plenty of blame to go around. But the buck doesn't stop with the Mayor of N.O., just as it doesn't stop with a private at Abu Ghraib.

Canadians will remember the "Walkerton disaster" in which a right-wing, neocon government in Ontario cut back on everything, including making sure the drinking water was ok. After 7 deaths and several hundred serious illnesses, the Harris government was fatally wounded.

There is always, eventually, a price to be paid for trying to destroy government as a protective agency. And that is what Bush and his buddies want. Roll back the new deal, tax cuts whereever possible, and then pretend everything is fine.

Who needs levees when you can cut taxes instead?


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Melsky
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posted 02 September 2005 10:25 PM      Profile for Melsky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Don't worry folks, they hired HALIBURTON to clean things up. This is not a joke.
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 02 September 2005 10:48 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Halliburton hired for storm cleanup
The Navy has hired Houston-based Halliburton Co. to restore electric power, repair roofs and remove debris at three naval facilities in Mississippi damaged by Hurricane Katrina.
.....
The company is not involved in the Army Corps of Engineers' effort to repair New Orleans' levees.

From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
FabFabian
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posted 02 September 2005 10:50 PM      Profile for FabFabian        Edit/Delete Post
Yes, it was all fine and well for the Mayor of New Orleans to have his rant, but as soon as Bush showed up he was all glad handing and hugging like a sycophant. Bloody coward.

Also,colour me bitter as a Canadian fed up with US gov't bullshit towards us.

Can this bastard be impeached now? Surely this is a worthy reason.


From: Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 02 September 2005 10:57 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If the Republicans again lie, cheat, and steal their way into office in 2008, after everything Bush & co have done, I can imagine the US collapsing into civil war. I think after this fiasco the country will just about have had enough.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 02 September 2005 11:00 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The original thread question was, "Will Katrina break Bush?" I'm wondering if Katrina will knock holes in the Republican party, or if the GOP will distance itself from Bush, blaming him for the problems. I am also wondering if the Neo-cons will also take a hit. Will Americans place a curse on all their houses, or will they simply blame Bush? In the long run, will Katrina make a difference?
From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 02 September 2005 11:13 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Will Katrina break Bush?

If that means, will it drive him from office, I doubt it.

But if it means, will it mark the end of his grasp on power, then I think it will.

Wishful thinking? Public respect for Bush as president, and for his government's policies, already eroding under the strains of the debacle in Iraq, has been utterly broken. The nation's anger, already rising over the war, has been fanned far higher, and it's not going to be placated by Bush's afterthought trip to view the carnage. Bush is being publicly challenged as he never has been before.

Think about what's going to happen now that the record of his cuts to improvements to the levee system and to FEMA itself, and the failure to heed warnings of exactly this type of disaster, are clear for all to see.

And it could get even worse. Think about what's going to happen now that blacks in the rest of America have seen just how much the government values their homes, their safety, their lives. The schism of race and class has been laid bare for all to see, and it isn't going to be covered back up.

Sure, Bush's hard core supporters will not be swayed one iota, but I think he's lost the narrow middle ground for good.


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
rinne
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posted 02 September 2005 11:30 PM      Profile for rinne     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I saw Bush this morning on the T.V. say they just didn’t know that the levees wouldn’t hold or very similar words. Hopefully these words will be played along side of truth.
From: prairies | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 02 September 2005 11:33 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is friggin' hilarious: there's a Faux News anchor named Greta something, and everytime she sticks a mic into the face of an African-American at the Astrodome, she gets a volley of hate filled diatribe towards Bush, and Faux cuts and goes to commercial. (my satellite provider extended the Faux News free preview so I'm looking at this crap again out of curiousity, just to see how bad televison can be. Trust me, it ain't pretty) I doubt anyone who has experienced the Superdome will ever vote Republican.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 02 September 2005 11:46 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Greta (Van Susteren) is back from Aruba? Has she given up the the daily coverage of missing pretty white girls?

God, I bet she's pissed.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Barcode
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posted 03 September 2005 01:20 AM      Profile for Barcode        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CHCMD:
I think Canada should help out if Dubbya lets us in - can't punish those poor refugees just 'cause their president is a complete fuck-up.


LOL...you're pretty blunt and to the point.
I agree...Bush has been a disaster as President,
regardless of which side of the political fence
you straddle. I doubt he would win any
province or territory if he was running in an
election where Canadians would decide his
political fate. Canada is already helping in
a language Shrub the Smirking Chimp understands,
oil. Canada to provide oil to stabilize market
http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=e768408f-0924-46f6-a640-f4af8aa545cb
Bush is the only US President that I can think of that has cut taxes during a period when the USA was involved in a war. What kind of idiot does that? How is the USA going to pay for a war when they are cutting taxes?
I hope those US protectionist ingrates don't forget it either. You know...the same backstabbers who want to screw Canada on softwood lumber and other freetrade issues. Free Trade is ok as long as the USA benefits and their trading partners get screwed is their perception of free trade. It's not supposed to work that way.
We can't punish those poor refugees...but can
we please the likes of Reverend Fred Phelps, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and Pat Buchanan? If
any Americans are deserving of the devestation that Katrina has caused so far, those four should
be on the list.


From: Saskatoon | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
deBeauxOs
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posted 03 September 2005 01:26 AM      Profile for deBeauxOs     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
posted by Cougyr:
I'm wondering if Katrina will knock holes in the Republican party, or if the GOP will distance itself from Bush ... if the Neo-cons will also take a hit. Will Americans place a curse on all their houses, or will they simply blame Bush?
The manner in which Bush won his first term will always taint his legitimacy. As for the second campaign, his strategists won it for him with well-oiled and engineered marketing. To make Bush look good in the circumstances means that his spinmeisters will have to make others look bad.

And that may have worked before, but I suspect this time it may backfire.

On the other hand, though the Republicans may falter and abandon Dubya to his well-deserved fate, this does not ensure a bright future for the Democrats. Vision, compassion and leadership are required at the moment. Can the Dems take the high road?


From: missing in action | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 03 September 2005 01:39 AM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Description of conditions inside the Superdome. by Agence France Presse; I wonder if US media will pick this up?
quote:
..."This city knew something like this would happen a long time ago. They did nothing to prepare for this. They just rolled the dice and hoped for the best," said the officer who asked not to be identified.

"People were raped in there. People were killed in there. We had multiple riots," he said, adding there was no way to police the mass of up to 20,000 people suddenly thrown together in such a confined space and such horrific conditions.

"You can't be trapped in there for so long without going crazy. People were locked in the dome like prisoners," he said. "There was no ventilation. We had 80-, 90-year-old people who needed medication and couldn't get it."...


Has anyone read C.J. Cherryh's Downbelow Station?; science fiction which starts with the arrival of refugee ships, in which people have been trapped for weeks, at a space station with limited room to house them; it resonates a lot here.

The conference centre was supposedly even worse thant the Superdome; but troops have now arrived and are chasing away gangs and handing out supplies according to this AFP report.

quote:
...The convoy brought the first large-scale relief supplies to tens of thousands of sick, exhausted and fearful refugees who remained stranded without proper food, water, power or sanitation.

Unloading the consignment at the city's main conference center, the troops chased away gun-toting gangs who had forced those sheltered there to endure sleepless nights with the constant threat of violence.

Lieutenant General Steven Blum said he was confident of a "dramatic improvement" in the security situation over the next 24 hours, with the number of guardsmen deployed in New Orleans set to reach 7,000 by Saturday...


[ 03 September 2005: Message edited by: Contrarian ]


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 03 September 2005 01:49 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that while Bush deserves his share of blame, you can place it all there.

I say that because there was a state that has control of many development laws, a municipality or several municipalities that approved subdivision and commercial construction eroding wetlands and driving New Orleans deeper into the mud, and then there was the consumer culture of all of North America who purchased property on those former wetlands providing the appetite to drive the destruction.

quote:
Throughout the 1990s Louisiana was only receiving $40,000 a year to combat their receding wetlands.

In 1998, Louisiana Department of Natural Resources drafted a coastal restoration plan to combat the receding marshlands, in an attempt to mitigate any damage that may be caused by a strong coastal storm.

The plan called for a $14-billion (U.S.) investment to restore the region, which handles nearly a third of U.S.'s oil supply and acts as wintering ground for 70 per cent of migratory birds in the U.S., according Mr. Fischetti's article.

The plan called for the Mississippi River to be diverted in order to restore wetlands and rebuild the southern barrier islands, among other necessary measures to prevent a disaster.

Despite the desperate pleas for funding, the plan was slashed by the Bush administration in 2003 by $200-million. A senate committee then authorized only $375-million in spending.


src: The Gob and Pail

From that report you might think the state had no say on runaway development in New Orleans prior to 1998 or anytime after.

This article suggest local governements could declare moratoriums on development but a state government couldn't? And if the local government could, why didn't it? Why did they continue to approve developments that directly put the city at risk?

Money.

And it is happening in your city right now.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 03 September 2005 09:23 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by warpedhalo:
The mayor of New Orleans is trying is trying to act the hero but is just as guilty as Bush. The resources were available since Saturday after a state of emergency was called, and everyone knew this was coming. Mayor Nagin waited until the last second to order an evacuation and didn't provide the means for poor people to evacuate. School buses would have done the job if the foresight had been there on the mayor's part. Why wasn't the Superdome stocked with supplies? The Mayor knew this was coming and did nothing. And now the blame game begins. The feds deserve a lot of blame, but Nagin deserves an ass-kicking as well.

This is the right-wing, Rove counterattack, which everyone knew is coming. Already a part of the Drudge, Limbaugh, Hannity, Faux propaganda. They'll also try to blame Governor Blanco, if for no other reason than because she's a Democrat.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 September 2005 09:24 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But is it true? And if not, why not?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 03 September 2005 09:29 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, school buses would have transported 100,000 people. And to where? The mayor's house? A local official couldn't do such preparations on his own. He doesn't have the resources. The state and federal government would have had to pitch in. I'm not saying he's blameless, but the primary blame belongs on those who cut money for shoring up the levees, weakened FEMA and diverted national guard personnel to Iraq.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 September 2005 09:42 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Don't roll your eyes at me. I haven't really seen any counters to what he posted except for yours, and you didn't say why it didn't make sense, you just said it was right-wing spew. It probably is, but I wanted to know why it didn't make sense.

As for buses - the mayor himself said that he wanted 500 Greyhound buses there to help evacuate, so obviously HE thinks buses would help evacuate people. To where - I don't know.

I wanted to know which "resources were available since Saturday" that Nagin did nothing about. And when DID Nagin order the evacuation? Was it at the last second? Did Nagin have the "resources" in advance of the hurricane hitting, but didn't stock the Superdome?

I'm not saying that what warpedhalo wrote was correct, I'm just saying that "oh, that's right-wing propaganda" isn't much of a rebuttal, that's all. Not all of us have committed a detailed timeline of bureaucratic events leading up to the time the hurricane hit to memory, and it wasn't immediately obvious, to me anyhow, that what warpedhalo said was untrue.

If it's already part of the Rovian/Drudge propaganda machine, then that's all the more reason to counter it with facts rather than just cries of "right-wing smear!"

[ 03 September 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 03 September 2005 09:51 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Department of Homeland Security did not allow the Red Cross into the city for fears that people wouldn't leave:

http://dailykos.com/story/2005/9/2/2125/04978

quote:

Nagin gave the voluntary evacuation order midday on the 27th, with the strongest possible wording: http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL082705landfall.b51e3a37.html

This was the same day Gov. Blanco declared a State of Emergency.

The mandatory evacuation order followed on the morning of the 28th, with Nagin's precise prediction of what would happen to the levees:

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL082805catastrophe.f4dd3f.html

So far as I can tell, they had an idea of what was coming and did as much as they could with the resources they had. Nagin spent the 48 hours before landfall essentially begging people to leave the city. Blanco jumped through all the hoops to clear the way for Federal assistance and aid.

Their mistake was believing the Feds cared.


http://dailykos.com/story/2005/9/2/22509/76629

And here'a a more detailed timeline:

http://www.dkosopedia.com/index.php/Hurricane_Katrina_Chronology

More:

quote:

Jefferson Parish Emergency Preparedness Director Walter Maestri said Friday night that the Federal Emergency Management Agency reneged on a promise to begin relieving county emergency preparedness staffers 48 hours after Hurricane Katrina hit the New Orleans metropolitan area.

Maestri’s staff has been working almost around the clock since Katrina approached the Louisiana coastline on Sunday. Today, the staff is
expected to finally switch to a 12 hours on/12 hours off schedule, he said,
adding that they’re both tired and demoralized by the lack of assistance from federal officials.

“We had been told we would be on our own for 48 hours,” Maestri said.
“Prepare to survive and in 48 hours the cavalry would arrive.

“Well, where are they?” he said.


http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/

[ 03 September 2005: Message edited by: josh ]


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 September 2005 09:52 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks. (Now I'll know how to respond if I hear the same accusations in conversation with other people.)
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 03 September 2005 10:38 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Michael Brown, the blithering idiot in charge of FEMA - a job he trained for by running something called the International Arabian Horse Association - admitted he didn't know until Thursday that there were 15,000 desperate, dehydrated, hungry, angry, dying victims of Katrina in the New Orleans Convention Center.

Was he sacked instantly? No, our tone-deaf president hailed him in Mobile, Ala., yesterday: "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job."

It would be one thing if President Bush and his inner circle - Dick Cheney was vacationing in Wyoming; Condi Rice was shoe shopping at Ferragamo's on Fifth Avenue and attended "Spamalot" before bloggers chased her back to Washington; and Andy Card was off in Maine - lacked empathy but could get the job done. But it is a chilling lack of empathy combined with a stunning lack of efficiency that could make this administration implode.


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/03/opinion/03dowd.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 03 September 2005 11:38 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One good Dowd deserves a good Krugman:

A Can't-Do Government

quote:
After 2003 the Army Corps of Engineers sharply slowed its flood-control work, including work on sinking levees. "The corps," an Editor and Publisher article says, citing a series of articles in The Times-Picayune in New Orleans, "never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security - coming at the same time as federal tax cuts - was the reason for the strain."

In 2002 the corps' chief resigned, reportedly under threat of being fired, after he criticized the administration's proposed cuts in the corps' budget, including flood-control spending.

Third question: Did the Bush administration destroy FEMA's effectiveness? The administration has, by all accounts, treated the emergency management agency like an unwanted stepchild, leading to a mass exodus of experienced professionals.

Last year James Lee Witt, who won bipartisan praise for his leadership of the agency during the Clinton years, said at a Congressional hearing: "I am extremely concerned that the ability of our nation to prepare for and respond to disasters has been sharply eroded. I hear from emergency managers, local and state leaders, and first responders nearly every day that the FEMA they knew and worked well with has now disappeared."


One of my favourite lines on that page, right at the bottom: "Thomas L. Friedman is on vacation."


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 03 September 2005 11:44 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
Greta (Van Susteren) is back from Aruba? Has she given up the the daily coverage of missing pretty white girls?

God, I bet she's pissed.


Yes, that's her. She looks completely stressed out at the Astrodome, almost in tears, really, interviewing those folks evacuated from New Orleans. I listened to her (when Faux didn't cut her off) and she looked, first, like a deer caught in the headlights. She's getting better though; late last night she did a great job interviewing a company that is donating $1 million _a month_ for the duration of the evacuation, towards establishing communications for the dispossessed (SBC Communications).


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 03 September 2005 11:46 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Another thought springs to mind:

Wheeeerrrrre's Karl? How is Karl doing?

When last we saw Karl, he was maybe on the verge of a wee indictment, yes?

I wonder how that story progresses.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 03 September 2005 11:58 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Another thought springs to mind:

Wheeeerrrrre's Karl?


I did espy him in that Coast Guard hangar in Alabama just before Bush got his 'briefing.'


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 03 September 2005 12:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is perhaps a reflection in poor taste, but I can't help thinking that Karl must be envying Mother Nature right now.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
deBeauxOs
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posted 03 September 2005 12:45 PM      Profile for deBeauxOs     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
posted by skdadl: This is perhaps a reflection in poor taste, but I can't help thinking that Karl must be envying Mother Nature right now.
Though he's trying to sweeten the lemonade squeezed from the lemons Ma Nature handed him.

Since I don't have cable TV (I use the boob tube to watch rented films) I get all my news from paper and radio and the 'net. Radio-Canada commentators were on Bush alert this morning, offering trenchant observations that the docile refugees from Katrina that Rowe & henchmen rounded up for the photo opps were not ripping a strip off the Prez, and the whole set-up looked like it was peopled from Central Casting.

In response to:

quote:
posted by WingNut: Okay, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that while Bush deserves his share of blame, you can't place it all there. ... Why did they (state & local governments) continue to approve developments that directly put the city at risk?

You are right, were the states' and cities' development centered on environment and people, (as well as disaster relief resources efficiently and quickly provided by FEMA) the ravages of Katrina would not have been as tragic and extensive.

Nonetheless, the Bush administration will bear the brunt of criticisms, and its attempts to deflect the blame on others (not sharing the responsibility or accountability - that would require humility and a willingness to collaborate with others) by doing their habitual smear-up jobs, may precipate their downfall. I certainly hope so.

[ 03 September 2005: Message edited by: deBeauxOs ]


From: missing in action | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 03 September 2005 02:11 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BBC Reports more world press reactions:
quote:
...Pakistan's The Nation

To augment the tragedy, the government of the world's richest nation defied the general expectation that at the first sign of the storm it would muster an armada of ships, boats and helicopters for the rescue operation. For nearly three days it sat smugly apathetic to the people's plight, their need for food, medicine and other basic necessities...



From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 03 September 2005 02:18 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Independent has questions and answers:
quote:
...Why did he cut funding for flood control and emergency management?...

...Local and former federal officials are in little doubt that the budgetary priorities of Iraq, tax cuts and the "war on terror" are to blame...

...It seems the Bush administration considered the risk of malicious human attack and the risk of the ravages of nature, and found itself incapable of holding both ideas in its head...


[ 03 September 2005: Message edited by: Contrarian ]


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 03 September 2005 05:24 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

One of my favourite lines on that page, right at the bottom: "Thomas L. Friedman is on vacation."

Agree. But too bad it ain't permanent.

More on the feckless Brown, or "Brownie":

quote:

The federal official in charge of the bungled New Orleans rescue was fired from his last private-sector job overseeing horse shows.

And before joining the Federal Emergency Management Agency as a deputy director in 2001, GOP activist Mike Brown had no significant experience that would have qualified him for the position.

The Oklahoman got the job through an old college friend who at the time was heading up FEMA

. . . .

Brown - formerly an estates and family lawyer - this week has has made several shocking public admissions, including interviews where he suggested FEMA was unaware of the misery and desperation of refugees stranded at the New Orleans convention center.

Before joining the Bush administration in 2001, Brown spent 11 years as the commissioner of judges and stewards for the International Arabian Horse Association, a breeders' and horse-show organization based in Colorado.

`We do disciplinary actions, certification of (show trial) judges. We hold classes to train people to become judges and stewards. And we keep records,'' explained a spokeswoman for the IAHA commissioner's office. ``This was his full-time job . . . for 11 years,'' she added.

Brown was forced out of the position after a spate of lawsuits over alleged supervision failures.

``He was asked to resign,'' Bill Pennington, president of the IAHA at the time, confirmed last night.


http://business.bostonherald.com/businessNews/view.bg?articleid=100857&format=&page=1


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 03 September 2005 05:34 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've seen Bush three times this week in public press conferences on live TV feeds thank Brownie for doing a great job. Neither of them gets it.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 03 September 2005 05:46 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, where are the Democrats in all this? They seem remarkedly absent. No, I don't expect them to make political hay out of this, yet, but I don't see them offering alternate solutions, or just pitching in. The Bush government is so bumbling that they would be easy to go around.
From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 03 September 2005 05:48 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What can they do. They have no power in Washington. Which is a big problem with this deceitful and power abusing administration. No congressional oversight.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 03 September 2005 05:51 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the Democrats are quite content to let the whole world watch and see how incompetent the Administration is. Then, again, I believe there's a couple of Democrats in the South that aren't too impressive, either. There's no front-runner in the Dems anyway, is there?
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 03 September 2005 06:06 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It's as if the entire Gulf coast were obliterated by the worst kind of weapon you can imagine.

--George W. Bush

Src: The Guardian


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
gopi
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posted 03 September 2005 07:24 PM      Profile for gopi     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So, where are the Democrats in all this?

The press conference held by the members of the Congressional Black Caucus was widely reported in the media. Democrat Sheila Watson's (from California, I believe) comment, "Shame, shame on America. We were put to the test, and we have failed" has been quoted in several headlines.


From: transient | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 03 September 2005 07:41 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Welcome to BushWorld where poor Black folk are expendable because let's face it they are not his core base. And the Dems are still on vacation themselves:

quote:
"There is rapes going on here. Women cannot go to the bathroom without men. They are raping them and slitting their throats. They keep telling us the buses are coming but they never leave," she said through tears.
...

"They have us living here like animals," said Wvonnette Grace-Jordan, here with five children, the youngest only six weeks old. "We have only had two meals, we have no medicine and now there are thousands of people defecating in the streets. This is wrong. This is the United States of America."

One National Guard soldier who asked not to be named for fear of punishment from his commanding officer said of the lack of medical attention at the center, "They (the Bush administration) care more about Iraq and Afghanistan than here."

The Louisiana National Guard soldier said, "We are doing the best we can with the resources we have, but almost all of our guys are in Iraq."


From Reuters

[ 03 September 2005: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Nikita
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posted 03 September 2005 10:09 PM      Profile for Nikita     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"They have us living here like animals," said Wvonnette Grace-Jordan, here with five children, the youngest only six weeks old. "We have only had two meals, we have no medicine and now there are thousands of people defecating in the streets. This is wrong. This is the United States of America."

What a huge let down for the people in New Orleans. They think they live in the best country in the world but they've been left to fend for themselves by the government - just when they need their government the most.

From: Regina | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
rinne
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posted 03 September 2005 10:16 PM      Profile for rinne     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wonder if the people of the United States understand that they are just one disaster away from this this very monstrousness overtaking them.
From: prairies | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
koan brothers
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posted 03 September 2005 10:31 PM      Profile for koan brothers     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
What can they do. They have no power in Washington. Which is a big problem with this deceitful and power abusing administration. No congressional oversight.

Go down there. Get involved. Talk to the people affected by this. Unload trucks, work in the soup lines, help raise private funds, petition THEIR corporate masters to help the victims of this disaster by making meaningful donations...Show that they care.


From: desolation row | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Melsky
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posted 03 September 2005 11:00 PM      Profile for Melsky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're on your own, Britain's victims told

Although assistance was offered to US residents, British nationals were told they would have to fend for themselves. According to those who remain stranded in the stricken city, police had visited hotels and guest houses on the eve of the hurricane offering to evacuate Americans, but not Britons.

The order meant UK holidaymakers without cars were left helpless in the face of the hurricane. Some have been trapped in hotels and guest houses since the hurricane struck at 7am local time last Monday.

One family from Liverpool, trapped in a flooded section of the city, told relatives yesterday of their bewilderment when they realised US citizens would be offered preferential treatment.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 03 September 2005 11:04 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by koan brothers:
Go down there. Get involved. Talk to the people affected by this. Unload trucks, work in the soup lines, help raise private funds, petition THEIR corporate masters to help the victims of this disaster by making meaningful donations...Show that they care.

Yes, that's what I expected to see.


From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
rinne
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posted 03 September 2005 11:12 PM      Profile for rinne     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Will Katrina take Bush down?

It will take the moral will of the people of the United States now to save those who can be saved and whether that will is there is yet to be seen. I am grateful for the voices speaking out, for the journalists there who have been aligned with the suffering of so many. Can they wake people?

I wonder, why not march on Washington? Are people phoning politicians?

The world is offering to help but is that enough? Should the world challenge the Bush administration over their staggering failure? Clearly the priority at this time is to get help but then what?

There are no words horrific enough to describe what is happening there, but then they have been there before. It appears to me that this moment is yet another Waterloo for the United States, and because the world is intimately connected we too are part of it.

So, if they “step up to the plate” Bush is defeated. If they do not stand up now then it is too late and they are lost.


From: prairies | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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posted 03 September 2005 11:59 PM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Should the world challenge the Bush administration over their staggering failure?

No. The Bush crowd would just seize on that to stoke anti-"outsider" sentiment, as they did in the buildup to the Iraq war. Look at these awful Europeans etc, dumping on our country in its time of need, blah blah blah.

From what I can tell, Bush's domestic critics are vocal and credible enough so as to make any significant foreign criticism redundant.

Nature handed Bush a rope, and he's pretty much doing his level best to hang himself. All the rest of us need to do now is sit back and watch.


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
glacier76
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posted 04 September 2005 12:00 AM      Profile for glacier76     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In the Vancouver Sun, a poll stated that 82% of black Americans were not satisfied with the response to the disaster. Meanwhile, 63% of white Americans agreed. Gee, I wonder how those %37 align themselves politically? So, it seems the people most aligned with Bush will continue to back him. It looks like it's that same 10-15% of the American public to determine if this will break Bush.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 04 September 2005 12:14 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Melsky:
You're on your own, Britain's victims told

Although assistance was offered to US residents, British nationals were told they would have to fend for themselves. According to those who remain stranded in the stricken city, police had visited hotels and guest houses on the eve of the hurricane offering to evacuate Americans, but not Britons.


That better not be true


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rob8305
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posted 04 September 2005 12:50 AM      Profile for Rob8305     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by glacier76:
In the Vancouver Sun, a poll stated that 82% of black Americans were not satisfied with the response to the disaster. Meanwhile, 63% of white Americans agreed. Gee, I wonder how those %37 align themselves politically? So, it seems the people most aligned with Bush will continue to back him. It looks like it's that same 10-15% of the American public to determine if this will break Bush.

How will it break him though? He doesn't stand for re-election. If this happened in 2004, it might have been of more significance.

I do agree though that the republican party is in for a world of hurt in the 2006 midterms but not Bush personally.


From: Montrose | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
glacier76
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posted 04 September 2005 01:28 AM      Profile for glacier76     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe I was speaking about Jeb.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Nikita
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posted 04 September 2005 01:58 AM      Profile for Nikita     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by glacier76:
Maybe I was speaking about Jeb.

How is this relevant to the discussion? Everyone else is talking about George W.

[ 04 September 2005: Message edited by: Nikita ]


From: Regina | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 04 September 2005 02:46 AM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Senator Mary Landrieu slams Bush for his "stage set" relief appearance.
quote:
She said when she toured the 17th Street levee with Bush Friday, she believed "a real and significant" recovery effort was under way.

"Flying over this critical spot again (Saturday) morning, less than 24 hours later, it became apparent that yesterday we witnessed a hastily prepared stage set for a presidential photo opportunity," she said, "and the desperately needed resources we saw were this morning reduced to a single, lonely piece of equipment."



From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 04 September 2005 02:58 AM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, yay, Landrieu! Also some German news organisations have commented on two faked photo ops by Bush in this thread.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 04 September 2005 04:22 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know it's really interesting the way that Bush was seen to be "decisive" even if he was decisively wrong on the issues. And therefore during the last election 59 million Americans (or maybe a few million less who knows) in their wisdom decided Kerry couldn't become President, because by golly, he'd take eons to make up his mind on something while people died. I mean how could he respond to a disaster? He'd flip flop, yes?

But oh wait, look at Bush, what's he done. And what exactly is that? Photo-ops, well yes, we all need photo-ops. But wait, fake photo-ops (and btw, I posted in another thread, and my comments about the photo-ops that he needed to undertake were not an indication of my support for his faked photo-ops that create a make-believe world were things are allegedly being done to help the suffering, when they so clearly aren't), while Rome burns? So while trying to give the impression of giving a crap about the population of your own country, he actually doesn’t cause he only cares about his own approval rating? He didn’t actually get things to be done, they were just done for the sake of his photo-op?

This man is a modern day Nero, it's absolutely ridiculous. I have hoped a lot of things will break Bush, but reading that link, and hearing Landrieu's comments, I'm begging to think he just might burst like a Piñata taking his friends to ground zero with him, (in political terms of course)...I won't bet on it yet, but I sure as heck hope so.


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 04 September 2005 04:36 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Intrestingly enough the Bush Administration, is starting to duck blame by placing it on the local and State goverment:

Reuters/Alternet

quote:
The Washington Post reported on Sunday that Bush administration officials were blaming state and local authorities for the disaster response problems. The newspaper said the administration was rebuffed in an effort to take control of police and National Guard units reporting to Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco, a Democrat.

From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Alan Avans
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posted 04 September 2005 10:12 AM      Profile for Alan Avans   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pike:
The big question is why? Why should Canada help? It's true people are people but the Canadian people as a whole are just going to get bit in the a$$ in the end. We helped during Sept. 11 and what happened? Softwood tariffs ring a bell to anyone? Bombing 4 of our troops and we never got a decent apology until like 2 years later! Again I ask why should we help? Spend our time, money, and other resources on a country that is totally ignorant of us. We are always shown disrespect from Americans. They claim their military protects Canada and their economy rules the west yet come a disaster, no matter how small or large, and they look to the north for help?!?! It's like the boy who cried wolf. It's a simple thing to keep crying for the fun of it and not think about what you're doing BUT when the time comes to cry and mean it and there's no one there to help the bitter truth shows through. You aren't as damn mighty and invincible as you'd like to think. I believe I heard one american say "Why did this happen? This is America!". I'm still trying to figure out which had more BS associated with it, that one or al Quada (however spelled out) saying this was their god's doing and that they hoped for $200 a barrel. I guess it was another god killing all those Muslims with the tsunami.

Robert, jingoistic anti-American posts like yours only serve to make me belligerently proud to be an American. Serious statement. Oh, Robert, did I ever mention that we 100 pro-cent Americans have longer schlongs and more WMD than you do?

[ 04 September 2005: Message edited by: Alan Avans ]


From: Christian Democratic Union of USAmerica | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Alan Avans
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posted 04 September 2005 10:29 AM      Profile for Alan Avans   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by warpedhalo:
The mayor of New Orleans is trying is trying to act the hero but is just as guilty as Bush. The resources were available since Saturday after a state of emergency was called, and everyone knew this was coming. Mayor Nagin waited until the last second to order an evacuation and didn't provide the means for poor people to evacuate. School buses would have done the job if the foresight had been there on the mayor's part. Why wasn't the Superdome stocked with supplies? The Mayor knew this was coming and did nothing. And now the blame game begins. The feds deserve a lot of blame, but Nagin deserves an ass-kicking as well.

Some astute observations...and I agree 100 pro-cent.


From: Christian Democratic Union of USAmerica | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 04 September 2005 10:45 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Great come back Alan. You're right, that comment was low.
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 04 September 2005 11:07 AM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, Goddess knows I'm not the greatest living American but dying people are part of the human race and need help. If it were a Canadian disaster you could bet my Yankee ass, I'd be digging in my pocket right now for some money to help.
From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alan Avans
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posted 04 September 2005 11:14 AM      Profile for Alan Avans   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Américain Égalitaire:
Yeah, Goddess knows I'm not the greatest living American but dying people are part of the human race and need help. If it were a Canadian disaster you could bet my Yankee ass, I'd be digging in my pocket right now for some money to help.

Yup.

That's why the shekinah light of Sophia shines upon you most powerfully, AE.

Sophia Bless,


From: Christian Democratic Union of USAmerica | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 04 September 2005 11:23 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Ok, but you can't blame Canadians for feeling a twinge of that, which has been born out of 2 years of arguing seriously and thoughtfully about what have been seen as serious misjudgements on the part of the US administration, only to have that discussion characterised childishly as "reflexively anti-American," "smug," and "morally superior." Remember, the previous American ambassador himself lectured the whole country, telling us "If the situation were reversed, the US would be there, as paht of our fahmily" when Chrétien said "no" to Iraq (..or was it Martin's 'no' to BMD? I forget; Celucci's lectures are all blending into one, undifferentiated scold.) I've been hearing this in various forms for close to 35 years now, and it's ringing a little hollow. It's never been seriously tested (God willing) and in the meantime, Canada gets trade and border disruptions as retaliation for not being a good little vassal state.

[ 04 September 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 04 September 2005 11:24 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This discussion is happening on another thread too, but I'll repeat the question raised there:

Does the U.S. need money? Whose money? I am not grasping this.

Did anyone here think of sending money to London after the Tube bombings? I somehow think not.

I think it is proper for the Canadian government to offer the specialized kinds of help we can -- a hospital ship, the search-and-rescue teams, etc, and that is being done -- the BC search-and-rescue team was at work in New Orleans on Thursday.

But what's up with the requests for money?

[ 04 September 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 04 September 2005 11:31 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The USA is the land of billionaires and millionaires. How much are those rich white folks giving to the relief effort? Bill Gates - world's richest person - how much is he giving? How much are those on the Forbes Top 40 giving? How about the Saudi's - and Kuwaitis - all these oil-rich allies of the US - how much are they giving? Why aren't we being told?
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 04 September 2005 11:33 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Money is the easiest kind of assistance to provide, and it's measurable, so you can quantify exactly how compassionate you are. In places where money is seriously lacking, that makes sense.

In this case, it's a grand show of "look at me, I'm compassionate."

If I were in Louisiana right now, I'd be sand-bagging levees, handing out sandwiches and bottled water, or putting up refugees in my home. From where I am now, my assistance will have to be limited to the tax-payer resources that are being made available through the government.

I'm not donating any money, not in this case.

[ 04 September 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 04 September 2005 11:33 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There was a line in an MSNBC package that leapt out at me. It spoke of world reaction to seeing 'a superpower humbled.'

I do think that's what's happened. Now we can only hope that in the wake of the humbling, we in the US don't reflexively cry out for idiotic foreign adventures meant to declare to all and sundry that 'we ain't beat yet.'


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Alan Avans
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posted 04 September 2005 11:37 AM      Profile for Alan Avans   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
Ok, but you can't blame Canadians for feeling a twinge of that, which has been born out of 2 years of arguing seriously and thoughtfully about what have seen as serious misjudgements on the part of the US administration, only to have that discussion characterised childishly as "reflexively anti-American," "smug," and "morally superior." Remember, the previous American ambassador himself lectured the whole country, telling us "If the situation were reversed, the US would be there, as paht of our fahmily" when Chrétien said "no" to Iraq. I've been hearing this in various forms for close to 35 years now, and it's ringing a little hollow. It's never been seriously tested (God willing) and in the meantime, Canada gets trade and border disruptions as retaliation for not being a good little vassal state.

Of course you are right, Hinterland. It is quite understandable that Canadians experience angst at the rather tawdry state of the Union down here. You express it well and rationally. On the other hand their are folks that choose to express their angst in an irrational manner. I'll continue to give Robert Pike a little bit of grief when he resorts to his irrational behaviour here at Babble. I'm just absolutely positive that there is a more constructive way to voice extreme discontent with the pretensions of the American empire.


From: Christian Democratic Union of USAmerica | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 04 September 2005 11:39 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
That's fair.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 04 September 2005 11:51 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There appears to be quite a rightwing effort underway to shift the blame from the Bush Administration to the State and city levels in Louisiana for the chaos in New Orleans, especially. But it's being repelled by the likes of Jesse Jackson who again appeared on the news this morning and condemned not only the Bush Administration, but also the conservative media that is portraying blacks in New Orleans as thugs and looters, and not enough on the suffering of the displaced. Then the Black Panthers came on and said the black population is being dumped on as never before. There's a lot of anger being expressed today.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sirrhosis
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posted 04 September 2005 12:04 PM      Profile for Sirrhosis        Edit/Delete Post
Small wonder given that a crucial component of NO's evacuation plans recognized the plight of the poor who lacked transportation and called for the use of all public buses- these are a mile from the Superdome- NO Transportation Authority Facilty

[ 04 September 2005: Message edited by: Sirrhosis ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Barcode
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posted 04 September 2005 12:16 PM      Profile for Barcode        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
There appears to be quite a rightwing effort underway to shift the blame from the Bush Administration to the State and city levels in Louisiana for the chaos in New Orleans, especially. But it's being repelled by the likes of Jesse Jackson who again appeared on the news this morning and condemned not only the Bush Administration, but also the conservative media that is portraying blacks in New Orleans as thugs and looters, and not enough on the suffering of the displaced. Then the Black Panthers came on and said the black population is being dumped on as never before. There's a lot of anger being expressed today.

It is a definite double standard down there. When whites do it, it is because of need. If blacks do it, they're looters. The question is, when Canada
had problems with natural disasters (Manitoba flood, Alberta floods, Quebec power outage from the winter of 1997 I think), how much did the USA
contribute? We all seem to do more for them when
they're in trouble than when it's the other way around. What about the Mad Cow disease scare? West Nile virus? How much did the USA help Canada when they were going through these? I bet slim to none, because the Bush Administration is in the hip pocket of US protectionist xenophobic right
wing Christian nuts.


From: Saskatoon | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sirrhosis
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posted 04 September 2005 12:23 PM      Profile for Sirrhosis        Edit/Delete Post
Hi Barcode- Snopes has provided context for the Looting VS Taking meme- http://www.snopes.com/photos/katrina/looters.asp

[ 04 September 2005: Message edited by: Sirrhosis ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sirrhosis
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posted 04 September 2005 12:28 PM      Profile for Sirrhosis        Edit/Delete Post
This article dated Aug 28th has Bush calling for the mandatory evacuation of NO - NOLA.com. Is this in fact the first call by anyone in authority for mandatory evacuation? This statement is taken directly from that article-
quote:
Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding.
This is taken directly from NO's evacuation plan- 72 hour advance notice for a Category 3 storm-

[ 04 September 2005: Message edited by: Sirrhosis ]

quote:
A. Evacuation Time Requirements

Using information developed as part of the Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Task Force and other research, the City of New Orleans has established a maximum acceptable hurricane evacuation time standard for a Category 3 storm event of 72 hours. This is based on clearance time or is the time required to clear all vehicles evacuating in response to a hurricane situation from area roadways. Clearance time begins when the first evacuating vehicle enters the road network and ends when the last evacuating vehicle reaches its destination.


. Too bad about those flooded buses.

[ 04 September 2005: Message edited by: Sirrhosis ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 04 September 2005 01:36 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Avans:

...jingoistic anti-American posts like yours only serve to make me belligerently proud to be an American.


I have to admit that when I first moved to Canada I often reacted the same way, despite being what I thought was progressive for an American, but that was a long time ago now, and I just don't feel that way anymore. Must be because I no longer think of myself as a US citizen, but as a Canadian, which I now am.

Still, ever since the invasion of Iraq, and especially since the looting of Bagdad and Abu Ghraib, I didn't think I could possibly feel any more ashamed of being a US Citizen, but I was wrong. My shame has found new depth over the last week.

I also have to admit that at times this week I've almost hoped that George fuckWad Bush leaves just enough in the Social Security system to insure that his most ardent supporters live a long and miserable hand-to-mouth life and then die lying face down in a gutter filled with fetid water while waiting to be rescued from some future hurricane.

But I now have a much better hope: that that same ardent, but rapidly shrinking pool of supporters live a long, bitter life, seething at how utterly miserably Little Bush failed them in their dreams of creating a rightwing evangelical American empire.

I now believe that Katrina will indeed break Bush, just as Walkerton broke Mike Harris, only faster and with far, far more fury.

I would say that it is going to be delicious watching it happen, but it won't be. Too many people have died, and will die still-- for absolutely nothing.

To use an oft invoked curse: Damn George Bush to eternal Hell.


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
deBeauxOs
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posted 04 September 2005 01:45 PM      Profile for deBeauxOs     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
News Flash - According to Radio Canada, Condoleeza Rice was photographed "helping" at a soup kitchen for Katrina refugees somewhere in Mississippi. The news item did not mention if she was wearing her new shoes. Probably not, as they might get muddy. But then again, perhaps Rowe's advance team cleaned up the spot when they did the set-up for the photo opp.
From: missing in action | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Melsky
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posted 04 September 2005 02:16 PM      Profile for Melsky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As Operation "Drown the Negros" Falters Operation "Blame the Fags" kicks into high gear.

Lead religious right group promotes theory that God wiped out NOLA on purpose

Geez, this is from the American Family Association's propaganda organ AgapePress. It's one thing when some nutjob says this, it's another when the American Family Association, one of the LARGEST and most powerful groups of the radical right, gives those nutjobs air time.

Rev. Bill Shanks, pastor of New Covenant Fellowship of New Orleans, also sees God's mercy in the aftermath of Katrina -- but in a different way. Shanks says the hurricane has wiped out much of the rampant sin common to the city.

The pastor explains that for years he has warned people that unless Christians in New Orleans took a strong stand against such things as local abortion clinics, the yearly Mardi Gras celebrations, and the annual event known as "Southern Decadence" -- an annual six-day "gay pride" event scheduled to be hosted by the city this week -- God's judgment would be felt.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 04 September 2005 02:26 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stunning site, Melsky. Make sure, people, to read the whole photo essay before you get to this:

quote:
“New Orleans now is abortion free. New Orleans now is Mardi Gras free. New Orleans now is free of Southern Decadence and the sodomites, the witchcraft workers, false religion -- it's free of all of those things now," Shanks says. "God simply, I believe, in His mercy purged all of that stuff out of there -- and now we're going to start over again."

And then to the blogger's concluding remarks to American "moderates":

quote:
And while there is a special place reserved in Hell for drunken idiots who plow their Caddy’s through crowds of innocent people, giggling as they die, and then stagger out of the car swearing it wasn’t their fault, there is a special, deeper, hotter place reserved for those that tossed the drunken, giggling idiot the keys to the car in the first place and said, “Go ahead. You drive.”

Take a guess which bunk you’ll be sleeping in until the end of time?



From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 04 September 2005 02:29 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow. That was one magnificent anti-Repugnican rant. Thanks, Melsky.

** stands, ovates **


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 04 September 2005 02:45 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hinterland - you know where I stand on the US government. And I don't blame Canadians for feeling that they do much more for us than we do for them - I feel that's true. But you know I would do whatever I could in case of a disaster like this in Canada whether my government called for it or not, even if it meant stuffing cash in an envelope and mailing it to one of you to pass on. But again, when the US behaves in such an arrogant fashion, there is a tendency, since we're only human, to question whether they should put their own house in order.

I just felt that misery and want is misery and want wherever it is. And New Orleans looked every bit the third world country last week and now.

I will say that the US, I fear, is in far worse shape economically than most people are led to believe. I think we're in serious trouble and this disaster may indeed set a deadly domino chain into motion on the US economy.

I talked to my formerly Republican, God-fearing, anti-abortion, Halliburton stock holding, former GOP contributing, uber Catholic mother this morning. She's so mad at Bush she yells at the TV whenever he comes on. She's thoroughly disgusted with him and would tell him to his face.

My work has paid off. She's come around. "I think I'm going back to what I was before - a socialist," she said.

So there is some hope. It's just too bad it took these images staring us in the face to get some people to finally wake up to the fact that when you, as Grover Nordquist has been fond of saying, shrink government so that it can be drowned in the bathtub, this is what you get.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
anne cameron
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posted 04 September 2005 02:45 PM      Profile for anne cameron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sometimes you have to wonder just what in hell the christopsychotics and evangelonazi's would really like to do once they are in power....

Makes me wish we could build our own version of the Great Wall of China..all along the 49th...

that in the face of such untold misery someone claiming to represent God would spew such vitriol.

"I am come that ye may have life and have it more abundantly"


From: tahsis, british columbia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 04 September 2005 02:48 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've been suggesting we build a wall along the CAN/USA border for months now, and we look for trading partners elsewhere.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
jas
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posted 04 September 2005 02:55 PM      Profile for jas     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Coward:
I was thinking, could you consider Canadian assistance to victims of Katrina to be the same as support for the war on Iraq?
Picking up the slack for their domestic humanitarian problems enables the US Military to keep their focus on Iraq.

Right on.


From: the world we want | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 04 September 2005 03:25 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Condoleeza Rice was photographed "helping" at a soup kitchen for Katrina refugees somewhere in Mississippi.

Oh, I can't believe this. Who the hell does this kind of thing work on? As if I'm supposed to believe Condi ladling soup is the smartest use of her time?

Oh, well...if she weren't ladling soup, she'd be looting the local Payless.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Melsky
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posted 04 September 2005 03:40 PM      Profile for Melsky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can't believe they were eating cake, playing the guitar and shopping for shoes while people are dying in terror.
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 04 September 2005 03:41 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hinterland - you get the cigar for asking the central question - WHO the hell does this work on?

Amazingly, it works on a particular subset of Americans who need to believe in the little lies and myths they were taught as children about their country, their government and about authority in general. I know of no country on earth that teaches such cult science of obedience and acceptance as ours. Primarily, these are now people over the age of 55 but can also include people younger than that who have bought into the religious dependency model Paul wrote about in Romans.

They need to see these images to reinforce their overall belief system that the people that God or whoever have appointed over us are really decent, honourable and care about us as people. Do they sense they are being played for fools? Mostly no, they cannot conceive of such a thing since it would be a direct attack against their core principles. America MUST be great and good, our government MUST be the best and our leaders MUST be people of decency and integrity. If not, the worldview collapses into endless questioning and recriminations and an orderly world must be maintained at all costs.

So even these images, which are more like governing by iconography, become critically important to reinforce traditional American notions of goodness, even though any intelligent observer knows its all bullshit. I know it seems hard to believe that millions buy off on this but they do - social and cultural operant conditioning are very powerful here. Thankfully, the numbers of these people seem to be shrinking but they vote like fiends and therefore have influence outside their demographics.

They are not trained to think critically, I think that's important to note.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 04 September 2005 04:12 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Transplant:

I now believe that Katrina will indeed break Bush, just as Walkerton broke Mike Harris, only faster and with far, far more fury.

To use an oft invoked curse: Damn George Bush to eternal Hell.


As yes our very own home grown moral degenerate Mike Harris and Walkerton. Ah yes I remember it well.


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sirrhosis
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posted 04 September 2005 04:48 PM      Profile for Sirrhosis        Edit/Delete Post
Hmm... maybe not given this poll showing US residents are in fact not blaming Bush- ABC News Poll
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
rinne
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posted 04 September 2005 05:00 PM      Profile for rinne     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A.E. Do these people know or care about the world's perception of the U.S.?
From: prairies | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 04 September 2005 05:08 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sirrhosis:
Hmm... maybe not given this poll showing US residents are in fact not blaming Bush- ABC News Poll

It's a fairly close poll. 44 to 55. When polls asking a question as emotionally-laden as "who to blame, specifically" are that close, it means that the question cannot be seriously resolved.

By the way...comments from suspected Bushlovers starting with "hmmm..." are very suspect. Just a heads up.

[ 04 September 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 04 September 2005 05:46 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmm, you are right!

That number isn't static, though, and will go down down down in the coming weeks.

I think that the entire Republican ethos of cutting governmental protections while handing out tax cuts to the wealthy, won't survive this.

No, it won't be reflected in tomorrow's poll, but the steady dripping of reality-acid into their thick skulls will have its effect.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 04 September 2005 05:49 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by a citizen of winnipeg:
A.E. Do these people know or care about the world's perception of the U.S.?

Generally they may be somewhat aware we're not liked but that's chalked up to envy. Many people in this group do sincerely believe they hate us for our freedoms as well as our wealth. People in this group tend to view that as inevitable and it doesn't bother them. Some get off on the fact that we're hated as well.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
ShyViolet
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posted 04 September 2005 05:50 PM      Profile for ShyViolet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by a citizen of winnipeg:
A.E. Do these people know or care about the world's perception of the U.S.?

i highly highly doubt it. most people i know insist that we are beloved by other nations and that they are jealous of us. if only they would open their eyes....

[ 04 September 2005: Message edited by: ShyViolet ]


From: ~Love is like pi: natural, irrational, and very important~ | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
blacklisted
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posted 04 September 2005 05:52 PM      Profile for blacklisted     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
there is a storm surge of pain rolling across the States.a desperately disempowered and victimized proletariot may well find the face and voice that pushes them past the inertail breaking point in the aftermath and ongoing misery of Katrina. this is an image that the neo-cons should fear
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/09/04.html#a4783

From: nelson,bc | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 04 September 2005 05:54 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ShyV: GMTA!
From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
ShyViolet
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posted 04 September 2005 06:03 PM      Profile for ShyViolet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Américain Égalitaire:
ShyV: GMTA!

"great minds think alike", i'm assuming?

they really don't know though, it's frightening how many don't. and i've heard soooo many times of how they're jealous of us. i don't know what's to blame for that. is it the media? is it our own smug patriotism? is it our unwillingness to face it? we don't realize that other countries don't see us as #1. face it, no country's going to have "woohoo! we're #2!" as their slogan. yet, as a country we seem to think that they do/would.


From: ~Love is like pi: natural, irrational, and very important~ | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 04 September 2005 06:12 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ShyViolet:

"great minds think alike", i'm assuming?

they really don't know though, it's frightening how many don't. and i've heard soooo many times of how they're jealous of us. i don't know what's to blame for that. is it the media? is it our own smug patriotism? is it our unwillingness to face it? we don't realize that other countries don't see us as #1. face it, no country's going to have "woohoo! we're #2!" as their slogan. yet, as a country we seem to think that they do/would.



Yes that's what I meant with GMTA.

And in response to your question - training. From the time a three year old recites the pledge and up - training.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
ShyViolet
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posted 04 September 2005 06:22 PM      Profile for ShyViolet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Américain Égalitaire:

And in response to your question - training. From the time a three year old recites the pledge and up - training.

i suppose so...

so, how does one break the training? and how do you know if you have (i'm serious...)?


From: ~Love is like pi: natural, irrational, and very important~ | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sirrhosis
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posted 04 September 2005 07:10 PM      Profile for Sirrhosis        Edit/Delete Post
Ben Stein has an interesting perspective on this, here is the link -Ben Stein Speaks!
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 04 September 2005 07:16 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sirrhosis:
Ben Stein has an interesting perspective on this, here is the link -Ben Stein Speaks!

Good to know Ben Stein's gone from being a Nixon apologist to being a Bush apologist. I actually saw one interview where Ben was *weeping* for poor Dick.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sirrhosis
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posted 04 September 2005 07:19 PM      Profile for Sirrhosis        Edit/Delete Post
James S. Robbins has a good piece on NRO, definitely worth a look - Where are the Guardsmen?
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 04 September 2005 07:27 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
TOO LONG! (as Audra would say). P'LEEEEEEASE start a new thread, for the sake of those with slower 'puters and/or dial-up connections.

Thank you!

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sirrhosis
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posted 04 September 2005 07:52 PM      Profile for Sirrhosis        Edit/Delete Post
Rich Galen has a funny item here- It's All My Fault
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 04 September 2005 08:04 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rich Galen's article; subtle racism and blaming the victim, plus global warming denial. Sirrhosis, go back to FD, nobody here is that stupid.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 04 September 2005 08:16 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Sihhrosis, do you have a link that hilariously compares the marsh Arab sand-nigras to the flooded nigras in New Orleans (who might as well be marsh nigras now, right?...ha ha ha!)?

If not, can you write one? I'm sure you have it in you.

[ 04 September 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Policywonk
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posted 04 September 2005 08:55 PM      Profile for Policywonk     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The question is, when Canada
had problems with natural disasters (Manitoba flood, Alberta floods, Quebec power outage from the winter of 1997 I think), how much did the USA
contribute?

None of these were on the same scale, although the ice storm was potentially far more catastrophic than it turned out to be (if all of the power to Montreal Island had been cut for example).

There is a Canadian disaster (not natural) that is somewhat comparable given the number of casualties and amount of destruction. That was the Halifax explosion in 1917, which resulted from a collision involving a munitions ship in Halifax Harbour. Over 1900 people were killed (about 4 percent of the population of Halifax at the time) and there was massive and almost immediate assistance from the States, particularly Massachusetts. I would expect that if something like that happened now, there would be a similar response.


From: Edmonton | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 04 September 2005 09:12 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's not quite the same situation either ... yes Boston did contribute, but that was a close family relationship between the two cities at the time due to "trade routes" and the exchange of workers between the two cities.

The USA as a whole did not make any big effort to provide assistance.

I would compare this to a situation more along the lines of Buffalo providing assistant to Fort Erie in the event of a disaster in Fort Erie ... more a matter of a sister city with close personal relations than a matter of country helping country.

That said, since New Orleans Cajuns have historic ties with the Acadians in the Maritimes, and I am an Acadian, I do feel a certain special interest in the situation there.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sirrhosis
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posted 04 September 2005 09:22 PM      Profile for Sirrhosis        Edit/Delete Post
Well Hinterland and Contrarian my point is that blaming Bush will only be described as the rantings of the "Fever Swamp Left". Clearly the failures will come to rest at the feet of both Nagin and Blanco and ultimately Louisiana's culture of corruption, of the 3 the last has been responsible for the generational harm we are witnessing. At any rate here is another good link on the subject- Response to Katrina
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Tiger
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posted 04 September 2005 09:28 PM      Profile for West Coast Tiger     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
That said, since New Orleans Cajuns have historic ties with the Acadians in the Maritimes, and I am an Acadian, I do feel a certain special interest in the situation there.

I'm an Acadian too, No Yards! And I fully understand how you feel about that. It really changes your perspective when you know you've got family in those parts. Mine are all in New Orleans.

I certainly hope that the Bush adminstration loses all popularity and respect in the US public eye for his disgusting lack of action during this crisis.

And yes, this thread is getting too long.


From: I never was and never will be a Conservative | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 04 September 2005 09:29 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is a Canadian disaster (not natural) that is somewhat comparable given the number of casualties and amount of destruction. That was the Halifax explosion in 1917, which resulted from a collision involving a munitions ship in Halifax Harbour. Over 1900 people were killed (about 4 percent of the population of Halifax at the time) and there was massive and almost immediate assistance from the States, particularly Massachusetts. I would expect that if something like that happened now, there would be a similar response.

Well, since you didn't provided any links to sources, I'll take that at face value. I know, during the Saguenay floods, the only help from the Americans was the usual cross-border assistance that fire-fighters provide. I'm pretty sure most Americans were completely oblivious to the problem.

Where were the billions in reconstruction funds? Were the Saguenois not worthy enough? After all, they're whiter than the Iraqis.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 04 September 2005 09:29 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, Sirrhosis, the main villain is Bush the Incompetent, appoointing his incompetent buddies to lead Homeland Security and FEMA, who are in charge of dealing with natural disasters, and telling them to ignore natural disasters that kill tens of thousands and concentrate on fighting terrorism that might kill a few hundred Americans. They screwed up fatally, but the moron keeps saying they are doing a great job. They will probably screw up on counter-terrorism too.

Don't bother spouting your rightwinger neocon talking points here; as I said before, nobody here is that stupid.


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 04 September 2005 09:30 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sirrhosis:
Well Hinterland and Contrarian my point is that blaming Bush will only be described as the rantings of the "Fever Swamp Left". Clearly the failures will come to rest at the feet of both Nagin and Blanco and ultimately Louisiana's culture of corruption, of the 3 the last has been responsible for the generational harm we are witnessing. At any rate here is another good link on the subject- Response to Katrina

...and the nigras...don't forget the nigras.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 04 September 2005 09:31 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey guys, there is a new thread to carry on the discussion; just leave this one for beating up on rightwing bullshitters.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
deBeauxOs
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posted 04 September 2005 09:53 PM      Profile for deBeauxOs     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
posted by Sirrhosis ... my point is that blaming Bush will only be described as the rantings of the "Fever Swamp Left".
Well, Céline Dion gave $1 million (US) to the relief effort and she expressed her extreme displeasure with the Bush administration's slow response. On Larry King Live, she criticized the amount of time it took to supply water, food and emergency care. So there - nonnynonny booboo. Celine vs George .... well all I can say to that is that she will rip him a new arsehole.

[ 04 September 2005: Message edited by: deBeauxOs ]


From: missing in action | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sirrhosis
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posted 04 September 2005 10:11 PM      Profile for Sirrhosis        Edit/Delete Post
Celine Dion- yes without question CD has absolute moral authority in this matter.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
thwap
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posted 04 September 2005 11:11 PM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sirrhosis:
Celine Dion- yes without question CD has absolute moral authority in this matter.

... as opposed to bushlovers?


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 04 September 2005 11:47 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sirrhosis:
Celine Dion- yes without question CD has absolute moral authority in this matter.

No, but she's given one million more dollars than anyone in the Bush family, any of their friends, or any of those right-wing commentators you just quoted, hasn't she?

[ 05 September 2005: Message edited by: Screaming Lord Byron ]


From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 05 September 2005 12:06 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More importantly if you watch the video she is pissed at the Bush admin. and let's them have it while brain dead Larry King just looks and acts like death warmed over.

I love Celine when she gets angry. On that video Celine is pure rock and roll baby. She has my eternal admiration.

Who'd have thought Celine is more rock 'roll than most.

[ 05 September 2005: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 05 September 2005 11:12 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Off-topic with Larry King", what a completely hollow fucking knob ... I was never a big Celine fan, so I'm not sure if it was her guts for telling it like it is, or just because the only comparison at the moment was to the jerk King, but she definitely went up a lot in my opinion for that little speech.
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 September 2005 11:21 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm just watching that clip of Dion (which is awesome, by the way) and I have to laugh - right after she got so emotional and gave that big rant, she was tearful and all, and then King asks if she can sing something. What a dork!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 September 2005 11:24 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But you know, it would really be great if this conversation could continue in this thread. I didn't notice before I posted here that this is the old thread.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 08 September 2005 10:09 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Policywonk:

None of these were on the same scale, although the ice storm was potentially far more catastrophic than it turned out to be (if all of the power to Montreal Island had been cut for example).

There is a Canadian disaster (not natural) that is somewhat comparable given the number of casualties and amount of destruction. That was the Halifax explosion in 1917, which resulted from a collision involving a munitions ship in Halifax Harbour. Over 1900 people were killed (about 4 percent of the population of Halifax at the time) and there was massive and almost immediate assistance from the States, particularly Massachusetts. I would expect that if something like that happened now, there would be a similar response.


That was 1917, in the midst of a shared war, when Halifax Harbour was the most important strategic military location in North America. I expect that if something like that happened today, the response would be far more muted.

Not that the help in 1917 wasn't appreciated. Hell, we still commemorate the aid given by Boston (and it was primarily Boston that provided the aid) each year.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged

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