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Author Topic: Saanich Gulf Islands Part 2
remind
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posted 19 October 2008 03:01 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Am taking my last 2 posts from the former thread as they made it over 100 posts and I was wondering why the slow upload.
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 19 October 2008 03:02 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nonsense Jas, the Liberal vote went up ONLY because there was NO NDP there to vote for. Nice attempt at skewing the optics but it is a failed and flawed effort. The facts indicate otherwise.

The Liberals could NOT even knock Lunn out with a supposed "star" candidate and no NDP. If you all were sooo concerned about knocking Lunn out, Briony would have gone with the 2nd place NDP, assuming they asked her, instead of the 3rd place Liberals. As she could have possibly stood more chances at getting GP and Liberal votes with the NDP, than she did with the Liberals trying to get GP and NDP votes.

There are NDP down there who would rather vote Lunn than vote Liberal, as 3500+ did, or stay home as 2k did, as you can see from the results and Lunn's increased vote size. And there are 6k+ worth of environmentalists who would stay Green, as opposed to voting Liberal, even if there is one running who has strong environmental credentials.

Look at it this way; 3572 voted for Lunn as opposed to Briony/Liberals, 3667 voted NDP anyway and 6732 voted for Lewis. So 13,971 people voted against Briony/Liberals, and 2k stayed home. That is 16k worth of people who would NOT support Briony, under a Liberal banner, in any circumstance. That is a significant number of people that you all failed to factor into your foolish strategic plan. Keep it in mind next time you try and manufacture a win with ugly shenanigans.

Moreover, you can shove your blind party loyalty comments in respect to the NDP, as Briony/Liberals got a manufactured 8k worth of NDP votes that she would not have gotten otherwise. They could have stayed home, or voted GP and perhaps they should have considering your and Brian's tone and attitude.

As we all can see, the Liberal vote only went up because there was no NDP there, and that Briony's alleged star power actually means SFA in the greater scheme of things. Had the NDP had a candidate she probably would have finished lower than Sheila Orr did, or close to the same level.

When are you people going to get the fact that "hoped" for results do not justify the means and that many many voters do not like to be scammed/manipulated? And of course the elephant in the room is that your focusing on paybacks instead of the environment, only hurts the environmental cause, just as Stuart Parker told you all back in 2000. As another said above, if it was not Lunn turning lakes into tailing ponds it would just be another CPC MP doing it. Gawd, I cannot believe how short sighted and mean spirited some of you all still are. And yet you dare scream about the NDP being partisan.

Furthermore, there is no quibbling about motives, they stand as they are, and they are not a pretty, nor ethical, sight. Suck it up, and grow up, you guys made your bed, now lie in it. Blamming others is ridiculous, you only have yourselves to blame, not that you all ever will, apparently.

And having said that, trying to minimize and cover up what was done by using "quibbling about motives" is a freaking laugh. There is no quibbling and there is going to be a huge fall out about this, as you well know, or you would not have stated that it wil be 2-3 more elections before a change can be made now.

Stupid, stupid, ego driven actions have split environmentalists, not only on VIsland, but across the province. That you all will not stand up and admit to making a huge mistake and try to rectify it, if it can be even, as reputations and environmental credentials were lost, Briony's too, will only compound it, further.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 19 October 2008 03:04 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scott:
Opponents of the Greens have taken this as a rejection of the Green Party while Green Party supporters see it as an endorsement.

Yes well, you can take it how you want, as will I, but I believe evidence suggests that Suzuki perhaps meant otherwise, he knows full well what is going on here in BC with some GP members, and the yanking of the BC Sierra Club's grant supports this. Moreover, I don't suppoe you noticed that he said:

quote:
We need to be at a point where the values that are talked about by the Green Party are all values that Canadians have.”
He did not say that the GP upholds those values he said they "talk" about them.

quote:
As leader of a registered non-profit Suzuki can neither endorse or reject political parties, let his tax exempt status is pulled, as it was for the BC Sierra Club a few weeks ago.
And what another fine example that is of the GP members thinking they can play both ends towards the middle, by believing they can be "nuanced" and claim non-partisanship, while being partisan as hell, as well as a good example of blamming others for their own actions. So, now we see they are destroying the environmental movement both politically and NGO wise because of their egos and their remaining in a closed feedback loop.

The incestuous relationship between the GP and environmental NGO's has destroyed pretty much all their credibility, and when you now add the Liberals into the mix there is actually a credibility deficit.

The Sierra Club is partisan nowadays, and it never used to be, EMay, and both the GP and the Liberals have used it to try and foster positive public opinion for themselves. And now it is a discredited shell, devoid of any ability to help environment causes in the way that it did before. And just watch for more BC environmental NGO's with ties to the GP, and Libs, to bear the brunt of this too.

Do you actually think that the Land Conservatory is going to get any federal backing nowadays, or the Sage Club? Do you believe that NDP environmentalists are going to support anything coming from these orgs? Hopefully the VWS, comes out of it unscathed.

Gawd, you people have made a mess, and it is the environment and environmental causes that are suffering for it and are going to suffer more. And I think that is what Suzuki was indicating about the GP.

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: remind ]


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
madmax
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posted 19 October 2008 03:16 PM      Profile for madmax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Green Party is a political party. The goal is to succeed regardless of the negative effect they may have on the environment.

Those are some pretty long and detailed thoughts.

It doesn't appear that the GP has done anything to save the environment if what you are saying is true.

From what I read, only one program was cancelled. I didn't see that the charitable status of the BC Sierra Club was revoked.

Did I miss that in the thread?


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surfdoc
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posted 19 October 2008 05:08 PM      Profile for surfdoc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Remind, do you have any facts that support this conspiracy theory of yours?

You've been calling shenanigans for a while now, but where are the facts to support this?


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Brian White
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posted 19 October 2008 05:28 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I appoligise for suggesting that people were moral cowards. Mal uses "liberal" as a constant slurr much as a us republican talks about the "liberal media" or the n word.
The funny thing is that I wrote the most caustic letter I ever wrote to the local paper about paul martin and yet I am still branded a liberal.
Brian

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 19 October 2008 05:28 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by madmax:
The Green Party is a political party. The goal is to succeed regardless of the negative effect they may have on the environment.
Good observation.

quote:
It doesn't appear that the GP has done anything to save the environment if what you are saying is true.
Can you name 1 thing even? I can't and I have been watching for going on 30 years out here.

quote:
From what I read, only one program was cancelled. I didn't see that the charitable status of the BC Sierra Club was revoked.

Did I miss that in the thread?


I didn't say it was, that was another poster in the other thread who said so, not me. The link the poster pot up said they lost a 100k contract for partisanship. Perhaps there is something in the works to that effect too?


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 19 October 2008 08:54 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by surfdoc:
...this conspiracy theory of yours?
Oh now that is funny, considering all things that have just played out in the public eye, and all the ones that have been linked to here, eh?

Surely you aren't denying that the BC GP has been trying to destroy the NDP in BC for 20+ years and that Stuart Parker resigned from the BC GP because it?

Surely you aren't denying the incestuous relationship between the GP in BC and our numerous environmental NGO's, and indeed this inclusive to the Liberal Party too?

Surely you aren't denying Briony's part in the whole West fiasco and Brad Zubyk's use of it publically, with a few twists thrown in to support it? Nor Briony's trying to beg for strategic voting, "enhanced" by the stepping down of West after time was up to replace him?

Surely you are not denying that environmentalists across the province are reeling from the fall out?

Surely you are not denying the VIsland environmentalists were desperate to narrow the candidates running down to 3, or less?

Surely you are not claiming the GP didn't need to desperately do something to remain relevant?

Should this become bigger than what it is? Perhaps it should, but that remains to be seen, yet. However, the bashing of the NDP over this needs to stop, that I know.

Also, there are links running through this whole election campaign, go back and have a look over them and in the SGI, I made a huge long post with links in another thread a couple of weeks back about the strategic planning that went on, most likely it is just a google away if you have not been following, if you would like to look that is.

Here are some other links, old and new that add local dimensions to facts that are already for common public knowlege in BC and on VIsland. And if you are here in BC you know them as well as I do.

quote:
"Anyone who challenges the clique in-charge faces a vengeance..."

http://www.publiceyeonline.com/archives/002313.html

http://www.straight.com/article/carr-s-exit-from-greens-won-t-turn-party-around

http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/Federal-Politics/2008/09/23/LiberalResearch/

http://victoriavision.blogspot.com/2008_08_01_archive.html

http://martlet.ca/view/issue/1703

And By Nothing, I Meant Everything

http://bciconcoclast.blogspot.com/2008_09_14_archive.html

quote:
Were there secret backroom talks between the Julian West camp and his former Green Party and/or Briony Penn? stranger things have happened in politics.

http://petertolman.blogspot.com/

quote:
Federal Green climate change critic and prominent environmentalist Guy Dauncey is one of six activists urging party members to vote "None of the Above" at their upcoming Saanich-Gulf Islands nomination meeting - scheduled for this coming Saturday. The reason: according to an open letter distributed by Dogwood Initiative executive director Will Horter, "The candidates already nominated to run against Lunn" - specifically Liberal Briony Penn and New Democrat Julian West - "have strong environmental credentials, are strong advocates for electoral reform, and are not likely to bow down to traditional party politics." And, if the Greens run a candidate in the upcoming election, votes for that individual "could cause the election of (Natural Resources Minister) Gary Lunn, a key player in Stephen Harper's anti-environmental government."

The letter goes onto to state, "The Green Party constitution doesn't specify what happens if 'None of the Above' wins on the nomination ballot. However, the Green Party executive, which has to certify all candidates, is unlikely to override the democratic choice of local members and force a candidate onto its (sic) the ballot." Andrew Lewis is the only candidate running for the nomination. The following is a complete copy of that letter.


http://www.publiceyeonline.com/archives/002533.html

And then there are the other Public Eye links in the former thread.

Briony Penn attacked

Other than naming names, and outting others which I won't do, nor will I start pulling out links associating some peoples, named before, to Ms Penn, this will have to do for the moment, and frankly it should more than suffice to indicate all was not as it seemed, and then some.

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: remind ]

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: remind ]


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 19 October 2008 09:36 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Remind, how about this.
West should not have been nominated?
If West was leading lunn, lunn's campaign would have brought up the old stuff (on the last day if necessary). And who knows who made those fone calls?
It is like the boxer with the glass chin. He might have a great left hook but you cannot put him in the ring. Just like you cannot put a narcoleptic guy in the pilots seat on a plane, West should have been asked not to run. By his ndp advisors. They should be taking some of the blame. He is a very smart guy who should not have been put in the public eye.
He had a lot to offer politically but not as a figurehead.
How about owning up to the truth? Someone was going to bring west down, early or late depended on how the campaign was going. And I highly doubt that the greens would have left him go on a clear run if west and lewis were nose and nose to challenge Lunn.
After all he was a green when whatever occured.
He was doomed from the start. Like it or not,
the buck stops with those who nominated him.

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 19 October 2008 09:58 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh brian...I know what the truth is, as I am sure you do, and it is nothing like what you are trying to suggest that went on, in an attempt to skew the optics. Anyhow, I am pretty much done with this thread, and topic now that the nonsense has been exposed.
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 19 October 2008 10:32 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If I was ndp and I knew West well, I would have said, "come on man, I am not going to throw you to the wolves, rethink it, everything in your past will be dug up". But you guys in the ndp didnt give a damn. It is a big bad world in politics and you know it. Quit playing the innocent. You might even have ruined his career by letting him run.
I havnt the time to check all your links. I hope your own personal truth gives you pleasure.
"he made the best coffee"
Conspiracy theory is my favorite movie but I am happy to keep fact and fiction separate.
I would have voted frontrunner to get rid of lunn.
If bitter infighting prevents others from doing so, I can only say dumb spiteful human nature is garys friend. The armys of the left tearing themselves apart. Will be really funny to see your reaction if layton, the liberals and the quebec party do a deal like they would in a normal democracy.
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Oh brian...I know what the truth is, as I am sure you do, and it is nothing like what you are trying to suggest that went on, in an attempt to skew the optics. Anyhow, I am pretty much done with this thread, and topic now that the nonsense has been exposed.

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 19 October 2008 11:34 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
I appoligise for suggesting that people were moral cowards. Mal uses "liberal" as a constant slurr much as a us republican talks about the "liberal media" or the n word.
The funny thing is that I wrote the most caustic letter I ever wrote to the local paper about paul martin and yet I am still branded a liberal.
Brian

I have never used "liberal" as a slur.

I have used "Liberal" (note the capitalization) to refer to those who demand that New Democrats abandon our principles and vote for a right wing party. Given my opinion of that party, one might call that a slur. I think of it more as an accurate descriptor.

Do you think it makes you look smart that you can't spell Malcolm?


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 19 October 2008 11:40 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What is it you find so hard to understand, Brian?

Every party has the right to run candidates in every riding, regardless of some individuals' delusional schemes about "strategic" voting.

Every voter has the right to support whatever party they choose, regardless of some offensive Liberal sense of entitlement.

These are pretty fundamental principles in a democracy. The fact that you are so adamantly opposed to both is a cause for some concern.

Brian, I don't vote for right wing parties, and you can't make me.

Canada is still a democracy, whether you like it or not.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
surfdoc
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posted 20 October 2008 12:16 AM      Profile for surfdoc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I haven't had the time to read all those links, but the links that you have posted previously have been old and only tangentially related to the topic at hand.

quote:
Surely you aren't denying Briony's part in the whole West fiasco and Brad Zubyk's use of it publically, with a few twists thrown in to support it? Nor Briony's trying to beg for strategic voting, "enhanced" by the stepping down of West after time was up to replace him?

Surely you are not denying that environmentalists across the province are reeling from the fall out?

Surely you are not denying the VIsland environmentalists were desperate to narrow the candidates running down to 3, or less?


I'm not denying anything other than that you have implied a lot, without offering any facts to support the allegations. Again, I haven't yet had time to read through the massive list of links you just gave, but I have my doubts they will shine light on the matter.

I have seen nothing that shows any involvement on the part of Brionny Penn in the "West fisaco", and a public statement from her stating that she was NOT involved. Calls for strategic voting in SGI started before West withdrew, and I don't see them as proof of anything other than that our electoral system needs reform.

I'm not denying that environmentalists across the province are "reeling from the fallout", yet I haven't seen any evidence that they are. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I'm not denying the VIsland environmentalists were desperate to narrow the candidates running, but again, I haven't seen any evidence that they WERE desperate, nor any evidence that environmentalists attempted to narrow the candidates running.

More later, after I've had time to browse the forest of links.


From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 20 October 2008 12:19 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by surfdoc:

I'm not denying that environmentalists across the province are "reeling from the fallout", yet I haven't seen any evidence that they are. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

True enough. Its just libel. That's all.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 20 October 2008 12:26 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's not a comment on anything being said here. But a comment on that horrible Rumsfeld aphorism.

But speaking of libel. What is the allegation being made here? Mostly this thread is filled with unsubstantiated assertions, knowing winks, allussions and rhetoric.

ETA: Ahh. Now I get it. Someone in West's campaign used a marketing firm to produce an autodialing marketing telephone pitch, and someone forgot to cancel the pre-programed call during all the confusion during the West scandal. Probably just locked the doors to the office, turned off the lights and left everything running. Why not?

And then the GP spiked the Liberal Party nomination punch with their own candidate so that they could win as a Liberal, and then switch parties after the election.

[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 20 October 2008 03:28 AM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm:

Canada is still a democracy, whether you like it or not.



Are you sure?
Have you heard of the 60% supermajority threshold?
40 votes for one answer equal 60 votes for the other answer in a referendum! Do the math.
No Buddy, again you are mistaken.
It is not quite a democracy here.
There is a difference between counting votes and votes counting.
It is way to obvious and way to subtle for you to see.

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 20 October 2008 09:44 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought this article in Torstar today to the Greens. why not recruit May for the Liberals.
quote:
By all indications, May has exhausted her purpose as Green leader. Securing an election debate spot for the party will remain her top contribution to its future. As of now, her presence at the helm stands to be more divisive than productive.

I loved this line as it could be read so many ways and with so much hidden meaning: May has exhausted her purpose as Green leader. Although Hebert alludes to her getting the Greens into the debate, she also knows that it is no guarantee in future federal debates, as the Greens again did not secure a "seat in the House." Beyond that, their has been "noise in the MSM" that some of them were not impressed with May pitch-hitting for the liberals, and thus 2 for 1 will not be allowed in the future.
But I read Hebert's "devilish" comment with the double meaning that she was "playing" with her readers: promoting a Liberal victory at the Green Party candidates' expense.
Yap, her job is done and now it's time to join the red team, and Hebert hopes she folds the greens into the red tent. My comment is posted on the LiberalStar page:

Eating Greens to grow Red tent

Hebert's answer to liberal's shrinking popularity is to "eat" the Greens rather than fix what is wrong inside the red tent. Power for power's sake, now that's Pyrrhic victory of sorts.


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 20 October 2008 10:25 AM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So west got recruited from the greens by the ndp, and everyone wanted to recruit penn, she went liberal to be in government and lewis was left on the destroyer.
What an earth are you talking about and what has it to do with this thread?
Absolutely nothing? or not quite?
Post it elsewhere in one of those "lets pick on may to show that she and not us are vote splitters" threads. The left in canada is politically retarded and abusive to politically retarded people.
The left won the election overall but are too dumb witted to co-operate.
fucwits from top to bottom.
quote:
Originally posted by janfromthebruce:
I thought this article in Torstar today to the Greens. why not recruit May for the Liberals.

.



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janfromthebruce
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posted 20 October 2008 10:43 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
So west got recruited from the greens by the ndp, and everyone wanted to recruit penn, she went liberal to be in government and lewis was left on the destroyer.
What an earth are you talking about and what has it to do with this thread?
Absolutely nothing? or not quite?
Post it elsewhere in one of those "lets pick on may to show that she and not us are vote splitters" threads. The left in canada is politically retarded and abusive to politically retarded people.
The left won the election overall but are too dumb witted to co-operate.
fucwits from top to bottom.

I believe you have been warned before about being verbally abusive. This is a progressive online forum.


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 20 October 2008 10:51 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One lib blogger took exception to Hebert's mischief and said this:
quote:
While it may seem like a keen idea at first blush, it’s actually quite ill-conceived. First of all, bailing from the Greens as they bicker internally over various strategic mistakes made in the recent campaign certainly wouldn’t do much to enhance her personal profile. Quite to the contrary, it would make her seem, not only like a quitter, but a feckless opportunist (which some might say qualifies her admirably for the Liberal Party, but never mind that).
source And I Agree with that assessment.

From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 20 October 2008 11:33 AM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You did not respond to the question or to the thread title.
You have been warned for derailing threads.
Your verbage has nothing to do with saanich gulf islands. It belongs elsewhere or nowhere.
I hope Michelle notices that your contribution is not relevent to this thread.
I have tempered my wording since the warning.

quote:
Originally posted by janfromthebruce:

I believe you have been warned before about being verbally abusive. This is a progressive online forum.


From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 20 October 2008 11:38 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
You did not respond to the question or to the thread title.
You have been warned for derailing threads.
Your verbage has nothing to do with saanich gulf islands. It belongs elsewhere or nowhere.
I hope Michelle notices that your contribution is not relevent to this thread.
I have tempered my wording since the warning.



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madmax
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posted 20 October 2008 11:40 AM      Profile for madmax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was wondering why the people involved in the Julian West Scandal were more interested in protecting the Green Party when the scandal blew up 12 years ago. It seems alot was swept under the carpet.

It seems whenever something of a distasteful or offensive or sexually abusive situation happens the first thing people seem to do is protect the offenders and the organizations.

Clearly 12 years later, the NDP is holding the bag on a controversial Candidate that had a known record in this circle regarding his activities. It seems to me that West had tried other times to become an NDP candidate but these events didn't come to surface.

Obviously, engaging in these activities, is offensive, especially when the age of the children are considered.

Where were the adults and the leaders and those who needed to take responsibility when this happened???

quote:
I remember looking over and seeing him standing there nude with an erection. It was very disturbing. The girls I was sitting with were crying," she said. Jessica told the News Review that she also witnessed the skinny dipping incident, but did not want to comment on it.

"We were all very upset [at the time], our parents knew, the school was involved , they offered us counselling. Honestly, we were so upset and embarrassed that we didn't want to go public. We didn't want to draw attention to the Green Party, our environmental group or the children's camp we were at either ."


Why? I understand about not going public. But clearly the effects were strong enough that it was important enough for those affected to go public 12 years later.

And then, did West disclose this information when seeking the NDP nomination on numerous occasions?

Was there a formal record of events to for the party to check out? Such as a police report, newspaper article etc.


Regardless .....

At no time should people put the Green Party, an Environmental Group or a Childrens camps reputation above the need to protect children from offensive behaviour. Clearly the situation was badly handle by these groups 12 years ago .

Obviously this wasn't about a group of teenagers having a sense of freedom among themselves.

[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: madmax ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 20 October 2008 11:46 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This thread has to do with Liberals and Greens and how their strategy "backfired" on them. The article in Torstar has to do with Liberals and Greens.

And I find that blaming a "woman" for your male abusive ways is so old school. Also, calling people "retards" is also so old school and shows that when you get angry you end of blaming others as justification.


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 20 October 2008 11:48 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by madmax:
I was wondering why the people involved in the Julian West Scandal were more interested in protecting the Green Party when the scandal blew up 12 years ago. It seems alot was swept under the carpet.

It seems whenever something of a distasteful or offensive or sexually abusive situation happens the first thing people seem to do is protect the offenders and the organizations.

Clearly 12 years later, the NDP is holding the bag on a controversial Candidate that had a known record in this circle regarding his activities. It seems to me that West had tried other times to become an NDP candidate but these events didn't come to surface.

Obviously, engaging in these activities, is offensive, especially when the age of the children are considered.

Where were the adults and the leaders and those who needed to take responsibility when this happened???

Why? I understand about not going public. But clearly the effects were strong enough that it was important enough for those affected to go public 12 years later.

And then, did West disclose this information when seeking the NDP nomination on numerous occasions?

Was there a formal record of events to for the party to check out? Such as a police report, newspaper article etc.


Regardless .....

At no time should people put the Green Party, an Environmental Group or a Childrens camps reputation above the need to protect children from offensive behaviour. Clearly the situation was badly handle by these groups 12 years ago .

Obviously this wasn't about a group of teenagers having a sense of freedom among themselves.

[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: madmax ]


Madmax, this was discussed. There was no police report because no charges were laid.


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
madmax
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posted 20 October 2008 12:22 PM      Profile for madmax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for the clarification. The threads and topics are multiple at times.

I think your link to Chantel Heberts comments could have had their own thread title or put in a Liberal or Green or Dion or May thread.

Somehow while looking at this title, Saanich Gulf Islands Part 2.... It's easy to get lost in the discussions at times

Now that I had a couple days of free time , I was trying to figure out what went on in this riding.

That Said.

Dion and May should switch parties


From: Ontario | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 20 October 2008 01:02 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have no idea why you are gloating. "WE" lost.
"WE" were too stupid to use our great numbers against Lunn. "WE" are collectively too stupid (right now) to use our greater numbers in parliament against Harper.
"WE" are not trying to get a new system implimented that will convert votes into seats.
I am part of the collective "WE".
"WE" are pathetic. That includes you and me.
Imagine Julius Ceasar (the play) updated for canada!
Brutus and cassius and the quebec guy sneak up on ceasar (harper), knives at the ready and stab each other!
No you twits, first you get rid of harper, then you can infight.
Get your stupid prioritys right.
What a bunch of idiots. Makes me sick.


quote:
Originally posted by janfromthebruce:
This thread has to do with Liberals and Greens and how their strategy "backfired" on them. The article in Torstar has to do with Liberals and Greens.

And I find that blaming a "woman" for your male abusive ways is so old school. Also, calling people "retards" is also so old school and shows that when you get angry you end of blaming others as justification.



From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 20 October 2008 01:19 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*sigh* and thus we have a fine example of the mentality that has inhabited the political climate on VIsland for the last 20+ years. But hey, do you see them joining the NDP to actaully get the result they desire? No. They want the NDP to join them to get the political results desired and are angry that the NDP won't.
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 October 2008 01:50 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
You did not respond to the question or to the thread title.
You have been warned for derailing threads.
Your verbage has nothing to do with saanich gulf islands. It belongs elsewhere or nowhere.
I hope Michelle notices that your contribution is not relevent to this thread.
I have tempered my wording since the warning.

Brian, there's nothing wrong with Jan objecting to you using the word "retarded" as an insult. It's not in keeping with the rules of this forum - it's excluding language.

And it's certainly against the rules to imply that leftists here who don't agree with you are "fuckwits" although I do realize you left yourself some plausible deniability by just accusing "the left" of this. Please moderate your tone.

As far as the subject of this thread goes - it seems to me that it's pretty wide-ranging, and about the riding and the campaign. So it would be nice if everyone could refrain from demanding that others stay within the parameters they wish to impose on the discussion. People can talk about what they like as long as it is related to what happened in the riding.

[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 20 October 2008 04:30 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
The left won the election overall but are too dumb witted to co-operate.
fucwits from top to bottom.


quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
And it's certainly against the rules to imply that leftists here who don't agree with you are "fuckwits" although I do realize you left yourself some plausible deniability by just accusing "the left" of this.

quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
"WE" were too stupid to use our great numbers against Lunn. "WE" are collectively too stupid (right now) to use our greater numbers in parliament against Harper.

I am part of the collective "WE".

"WE" are pathetic. That includes you and me.

Imagine Julius Ceasar (the play) updated for canada!

Brutus and cassius and the quebec guy sneak up on ceasar (harper), knives at the ready and stab each other!



Didn't he include himself in the fuckwits?

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 20 October 2008 05:47 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok, then, I have never before seen politics played out in the way it is in Canada.
In any other country, Harper doesn't automatically be first minister.
And Party representatives come together to bang out an agreement that suits the partners.
As all the others are to the left of harper, and share lots of common ground, (and because harper was a nasty shit during the campaign) it is their duty to the nearly 60% of voters who voted their way, to put their differences aside, make a deal and form a government.
Its as if they are saying, Harpers a real man bully, why would we want power?
Can they not do the math?
Nevelle chaimberlain's political seed seems to have run wild in Canada.
"Here I am, I represent the left, walk on me first, mr Harper". GAWD
The left WON the election. Do not tell me that they are not taking the spoils of victory because of tradition!
Are they afraid of power??
Why the hell did they enter politics at all?
In other countrys, they do a head count and say, "Harper, get into opposition".
Co-operation is not weakness, it is strength.
I do not think Canadians will thank the left for standing by as Harper ruins the country.

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 20 October 2008 06:09 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
Remind, how about this.
West should not have been nominated?
If West was leading lunn, lunn's campaign would have brought up the old stuff (on the last day if necessary). And who knows who made those fone calls?


Thats quite the statement Brian White. First, the NDP ran Second to Lunn in this riding last time, not the Liberals or Greens, but West was seen as possibly appealing more to environmental voters here than Burgess was (her record actually is quite good too) so he was nominated next. Secondly, it was the fourth running Green candidate who angrily refused to step down from pressure within his OWN party, and yet the NDP gets the lions share of the blame, despite the FACT that it was His vote (with the usual movements among all three) that stood more or less intact and took away the most from the Liberal candidate.

[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 20 October 2008 10:51 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:

It is way to obvious and way to subtle for you to see.

There's nothing subtle about this issue at all.

I am a social democrat.

I am not right wing.

Ergo, I do not vote for right wing parties.

If I were to vote Liberal in ANY cricumstance, there is some possibility that my vote would have a greater effect on the riding outcome than if I voted in a principled way.

However, if my vote "counts" by electing a Liberal, it is still a completely wasted vote because the Liberal Party is a right wing party, adamantly opposed to virtually everything I believe in.

Your bizarre idea that I am obliged to give my vote to the organized criminal conspiracy known as the Liberal Party is an effective demand that I abandon my principles.

Sorry, Buddy. You can go ahead and think that your perverse anti-democratic scheming represents some high blown principle.

You have failde to convince me.

And further browbeating and insults is hardly going to help you convince me to vote in an unprincipled way.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 20 October 2008 10:58 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
I have no idea why you are gloating. "WE" lost.
"WE" were too stupid to use our great numbers against Lunn. "WE" are collectively too stupid (right now) to use our greater numbers in parliament against Harper.
"WE" are not trying to get a new system implimented that will convert votes into seats.
I am part of the collective "WE".
"WE" are pathetic. That includes you and me.
Imagine Julius Ceasar (the play) updated for canada!
Brutus and cassius and the quebec guy sneak up on ceasar (harper), knives at the ready and stab each other!
No you twits, first you get rid of harper, then you can infight.
Get your stupid prioritys right.
What a bunch of idiots. Makes me sick.



Lemme see if I get this.

Voting for the party that most approximates your own beliefs and principles is stupid.

Voting for a party that has consistently opposed your beliefs and principles is smart.

Sorry, Brian. The only thing that makes me sick on this thread is your continued vitriolic attacks on anyone who declines to believe your deluded fantasies about the Liberal Party.

1. We have the right to support whichever party we choose.

2. We have the right to vote "strategically," but we also have the right to vote with principle.

3. Do you actually believe that post after post after post which merely calls the rest of us stupid, retards, fuckwits etc. (not to mention an apparent incapacity to spell a common Scots name) is at all persuasive?

4. You've lost. Move on.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 21 October 2008 12:48 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
Ok, then, I have never before seen politics played out in the way it is in Canada.
In any other country, Harper doesn't automatically be first minister.

When are you going to stop comparing Canada to "other" unspecified countries? We are not other countries, and there is no standard form of thought across canada even.

quote:
As all the others are to the left of harper, and share lots of common ground, (and because harper was a nasty shit during the campaign) it is their duty to the nearly 60% of voters who voted their way, to put their differences aside, make a deal and form a government.
Well, seeing as how that is not how FPTP works, what you are suggesting is that the other parties just chuck aside Canadian law and do what they want. As it is not "tradition" it is electoral law.

quote:
The left WON the election. Do not tell me that they are not taking the spoils of victory because of tradition!
Spoils of victory? Pardon me, if I find that offensive rhetoric. And tradition has sfa to do with it. The left can hardly insist that Harper gets to sit as opposition legally.

quote:
Co-operation is not weakness, it is strength.
I do not think Canadians will thank the left for standing by as Harper ruins the country.

Cooperation is a several avenue aspect, and it actually takes all to cooperate, and not just 1 portion demanding that others cooperate with them.

How is it the left's fault(aka NDP) if Harper ruins the country? Fact is it is not, no matter how you try and yell that it is.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 21 October 2008 08:38 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The left includes ndp, federal liberals and the quebec party.
It is only tradition that says harper gets to be PM.
Conservatives have stackloads of money and The other partys are broke, so poverty should bring them together to govern this country.
What is to stop Harper calling another election in a year while they are still broke?
Nothing.
Remind said:
"Well, seeing as how that is not how FPTP works, what you are suggesting is that the other parties just chuck aside Canadian law and do what they want. As it is not "tradition" it is electoral law". You sure? You mean 3 partys that hold a majority of seats in the canadian parliament cannot think of a way to unseat the conservatives?
They have first past the post in India too.
The leader of the largest minority does not automatically become the PM there. People have to grow up and think outside the little boxes the British made for you. Aparently that includes some on the left who are unable to see past "simon says". Are you going to cry revolution (In horror) if the 3 do combine forces for a while to get rid of the beast?

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 21 October 2008 08:44 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is nothing "left" about the Federal Liberal Party. Unless of course you mean "left" in the purely abstract and relative sense. In the sense, say that there was a "left" wing of Mosulini's Fascists. This is not meant to compare the Liberals with the Fascists, but merely to point out that the term is highly relativistic in nature and entirely dependent on the context in which the calculation is made.

The LPC is a "centerist party" just like the NDP.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
NorthReport
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posted 21 October 2008 08:45 PM      Profile for NorthReport     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
1 - it's only the Liberals that are broke, and who cares about those liars.

2 - since when are the Liberals left-wing?

3 - since when are the Bloc left-wing?

And even though they are threatened at the moment by the Cons, the Bloc will never form an alliance with the Liberals.

quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
[qb]The left includes ndp, federal liberals and the quebec party.
It is only tradition that says harper gets to be PM.
Conservatives have stackloads of money and The other partys are broke, so poverty should bring them together to govern this country.
What is to stop Harper calling another election in a year while they are still broke?
Nothing.
Remind said:
"Well, seeing as how that is not how FPTP works, what you are suggesting is that the other parties just chuck aside Canadian law and do what they want. As it is not "tradition" it is electoral law". You sure? You mean 3 partys that hold a majority of seats in the canadian parliament cannot think of a way to unseat the conservatives?
They have first past the post in India too.
The leader of the largest minority does not automatically become the PM there. People have to grow up and think outside the little boxes the British made for you. Aparently that includes some on the left who are unable to see past "simon says". Are you going to cry revolution (In horror) if the 3 do combine forces for a while to get rid of the beast?[/q]

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: NorthReport ]


From: From sea to sea to sea | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 21 October 2008 08:54 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I still do not understand why remind and malcolm are beaming even though Lunn got reelected.
(And I already said the greens should take most of the blame for Lunn getting re elected).
Erik Redburn, "Thats quite the statement Brian White" perhaps you could read some of the other posts Re West? (that I do not find fit to repeat)
You honestly think the Conservatives did not already know? and would not use that (whether true or false) against him?
Of course they knew.
As far as i am concerned, you are living in a fantacy land if you think he could have a political career as an mp.
He should have been persuaded not to run.

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 21 October 2008 09:02 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
I still do not understand why remind and malcolm are beaming even though Lunn got reelected.
(And I already said the greens should take most of the blame for Lunn getting re elected).
Erik Redburn, "Thats quite the statement Brian White" perhaps you could read some of the other posts Re West? (that I do not find fit to repeat)
You honestly think the Conservatives did not already know? and would not use that (whether true or false) against him?
Of course they knew.
As far as i am concerned, you are living in a fantacy land if you think he could have a political career as an mp.
He should have been persuaded not to run.

You mean by his friends in the Green Party who knew about this? Those good friends should have dissuaded him from running? I agree. There timing was impeccable.


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 21 October 2008 09:25 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yup, it didn't seem much of problem when he ran for the Greens before, but I suppose the NDP should have done a better job vetting some of their candidates. Thing is Brian, it was very probably the Penn camp who set him up for the fall, right when it was too late for another to replace him, as the COns would not only have no reason for doing such a thing here but had very good reasons to fear it. In my balance book, if the Liberals want a deal for strategic anti-CPC voting they can do it on the up and up, talk to the other parties directly and offer something real in return. Otherwise its just more political gamesnnship. And the Green party leadership should stop being so two faced too, even if only for their own interests. Its not a good way to build the kind of minimal trust needed, though the Liberals of course don't care, they're still choice number two. Their friends in the liberal media are already writing off Dions "Green plan" as one of the main culprits behind his defeat, so look for that one to disappear off their radar too except at election time.

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 21 October 2008 10:11 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Someone said "friends in the Liberal media".
Spoken like Palin. This was a propaganda sentence invented by and used by republicans in the usa for years.
Why are you useing it?
Thats really funny. Have you READ any mainstream paper recently?
They ain't Liberal in any way.
Ok, guys, ask your wives and girlfriends how the rumours might affect their voting intentions.
You are really flogging a dead horse now.
West did not have to enter the competition and he did not have to withdraw either.
I know, its all Penns fault, and it is all the greens fault. Yeah, yeah. Of course. that beastlie penn and the green meanies.
Happy now?

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 21 October 2008 11:54 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
Someone said "friends in the Liberal media".

We do not debate here, whether not the media has a bias, we know that it does, and that is why this site and millions of blogs were started. As such this statement, as side from its being nonsense in the Canadian context:

quote:
Spoken like Palin. This was a propaganda sentence invented by and used by republicans in the usa for years.

is pure silencing and marginalizing of a voice, with and intent to skew optics unfavourably towards said poster. perhaps you ned to live in Canada a bit, as it seems you have forgotten, we are Canadian, not another countries citizen.

quote:
Why are you useing it? p/qb]
Spurious accusation, being used only with an intent to disparage, as opposed to an actual question. As is the next question.

quote:
[qb]Thats really funny. Have you READ any mainstream paper recently?


Complete red herring intent to bias the reader by diminishing the one you are responding to.

quote:
They ain't Liberal in any way.
I will respond that they are NOT NDP in anyway.

quote:
Ok, guys, ask your wives and girlfriends how the rumours might affect their voting intentions.
Your camp was counting on how YOU thought this would play out with "wives and girlfriends". Nice that you thought you all thought you could con women out of their votes. How very forward thinking of you! Moreover, why would you ask the "guys" to ask this? Why not just ask women themselves?

But anyway, no matter, the answer is known, 16,000 men and women, or maybe even 16,000 women, would NOT vote for Briony, under any circumstamce.

quote:
You are really flogging a dead horse now.
No actually, it is you who is flogging the dead horse, the election is over, and in case you missed it, 16,00 people on the left in the riding refused to vote for Briony. But yet you still are castigating people for their audacity in not complying with Green Party mechinations.

quote:
West did not have to enter the competition and he did not have to withdraw either.
Now that is a flash of awareness isn't it?!

quote:
I know, its all Penns fault, and it is all the greens fault. Yeah, yeah. Of course. that beastlie penn and the green meanies.
Happy now?

It is not the whole Green Party's fault, just those involved with it, and of course Briony herself, which got her 16,000 less votes than she perhaps would have gotten, if she actually had conducted herself differently.

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 22 October 2008 12:58 AM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
remind, most of your post did exactly what you accuse me of doing. You know that?
I voted NDP. (Probably would have anyway).
But dont tell the rabid liberal haters!
Now about borrowing republican propaganda phrases "the liberal media" I object strongly to that.
I much prefer to make up my sentances one at a time.
No need to buy, rent or borrow them from George bush and friends. If you are going to hurl abuse, why not hurl you own homegrown canadian eh abuse?

Now, about penn getting 16,000 more votes if she had conducted herself differently?
Could you explain that one to me? She only need 2000 more and they had a high turnout. where are these votes coming from?


From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 22 October 2008 09:02 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
Now about borrowing republican propaganda phrases "the liberal media" I object strongly to that.
The media in Canada is biased, I object strongly to that.

quote:
Now, about penn getting 16,000 more votes if she had conducted herself differently?
Could you explain that one to me? She only need 2000 more and they had a high turnout. where are these votes coming from?

Detailed where "they" went above, but will post re-post it anyway:

quote:
Look at it this way; 3572 voted for Lunn as opposed to Briony/Liberals, 3667 voted NDP anyway and 6732 voted for Lewis. So 13,971 people voted against Briony/Liberals, and 2k stayed home. That is 16k worth of people who would NOT support Briony, under a Liberal banner, in any circumstance.

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 22 October 2008 03:10 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hope this isn't considered off topic but I had the impression this was a general discussion on events in this riding.

Gary Lunn's Shadowy Grassroots

quote:
Citizens Against Higher Taxes brings the total to five groups registering through Hallsor's office to advertise during the election. To put that in perspective, as of Friday there were just 59 third party advertisers registered throughout the country, or less than one for every five ridings.

From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 22 October 2008 05:35 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ralph Bodine, eh, quite the spread they have, and interestingly they have a prominent next door neighbour, well part time neighbour, John Travolta, unless of course he has now sold it, which I doubt. JTravolta apparently bought his place because of their friendship. Word is he used to boat up to visit them and then decided to buy his own place next door being convienent to the airport and marina. Plus other draws.

And I see that Harpo's and Lunn's actions in are turning off former conservative voters, perhaps it won't be 2-3 elections after all before an change can happen. As this information is not going to play well in the riding.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
surfdoc
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posted 22 October 2008 10:23 PM      Profile for surfdoc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You mean by his friends in the Green Party who knew about this? Those good friends should have dissuaded him from running? I agree. There timing was impeccable.

Who is to say that they didn't attempt to persuade him not to run? What was their timing impeccable for?

quote:
This thread has to do with Liberals and Greens and how their strategy "backfired" on them. The article in Torstar has to do with Liberals and Greens.

How does any of that have to do with SGI?

quote:
Yup, it didn't seem much of problem when he ran for the Greens before, but I suppose the NDP should have done a better job vetting some of their candidates.

He last ran as a candidate for the Green Party of BC in 1996. What happened before then that should have been a problem when he ran then?

quote:
Thing is Brian, it was very probably the Penn camp who set him up for the fall, right when it was too late for another to replace him

We know that the Liberals brought the story forward (and why shouldn't they have?). However, Penn has stated that she knew nothing about this. For you to be repeating allegations about the "Penn camp" IS bordering on libel.

quote:
It is not the whole Green Party's fault, just those involved with it, and of course Briony herself, which got her 16,000 less votes than she perhaps would have gotten, if she actually had conducted herself differently.

How should she have conducted herself differently?

quote:
Secondly, it was the fourth running Green candidate who angrily refused to step down from pressure within his OWN party, and yet the NDP gets the lions share of the blame, despite the FACT that it was His vote (with the usual movements among all three) that stood more or less intact and took away the most from the Liberal candidate.

No one should "get the blame". The liberals party is not entitled to the votes - nor the is the GPC or the NDP. On the other hand, we have shown that this riding will continue to be a Con stronghold for years to come, as the left (defined in this riding as anything left of the Cons) can't even manage to sneak it away from Lunn when the vote is less split.

From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 22 October 2008 11:01 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The operative word in your post is "sneak" surfdoc, followed by "when the vote is split less" and it says all that needs to be said.

And na, on the libel nonsense, Brad Zubyck stated quite clearly the Liberals released it. And in case you failed to realize it, Brioney was running under a Liberal banner, not a GP one. The links are above.

Plus it was a SGI and also a former BC GP matter, which she was a member of at the time, so as the now Liberal candidate for SGI, the shit flows down hill onto her, no matter how much you, and she I expect, would like to keep her out of it.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 23 October 2008 12:15 AM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
The left includes ndp, federal liberals and the quebec party.

He's here all week. Try the veal.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 23 October 2008 12:16 AM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
I still do not understand why remind and malcolm are beaming even though Lunn got reelected.

I would ask you stop lying.

No New Democrat has taken any joy in the fact that this Conservative MP was re-elected.

We merely choose not to share in your bizarre delusion that a Liberal MP would have been any improvement.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 23 October 2008 12:22 AM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
[QB]Someone said "friends in the Liberal media".
Spoken like Palin. This was a propaganda sentence invented by and used by republicans in the usa for years.
Why are you useing it?

Thats really funny. Have you READ any mainstream paper recently?
They ain't Liberal in any way.

Ok, guys, ask your wives and girlfriends how the rumours might affect their voting intentions.
You are really flogging a dead horse now.
QB]


1. Did you pass grade two? Do you know the significance of a capital letter? The evidence here suggests that you are either illiterate or dishonest.

2. The fact that some American Republicans spin myths about "liberal media" in the United States is hardly evidence that there is no media bias in favour of the Liberal Party in Canada.

3. Significant media outlets, most especially the CBC, have displayed a consistent bias towards the Liberal Party.

4. Speaking of flogging a dead horse, perhaps you could just admit that progressives are under no obligation to vote for the right wing Liberal Party (or any other party for that matter), and then simply bring this thread to a long overdue end.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 23 October 2008 06:18 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bill Tieleman: Strategiv voting fails in federal election - look at Saanich-Gulf Islands results for proof.

I like Bill's opener

quote:
Thus, what is of supreme importance in war is to attack the enemy's strategy.

- Sun Tzu, The Art Of War, 500 B.C.

I come not to praise strategic voting but to bury it.


Later Bill makes this comment:

quote:
What could make for an easier win?

But the best-laid plans went astray when real voters got into the polling booths and refused to put Penn to paper.


And to add to perhaps why the Green/lib plan failed:

quote:
Most surprising though, was that the NDP's West - whose name was left on the ballot because of his late withdrawal - picked up 5.7 per cent and a significant 3,667 votes.

That total would have easily erased the 2,625 vote gap between Lunn and Penn. So would have a fraction of Lewis' 6,742 Green votes.



From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 23 October 2008 06:23 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Thus, what is of supreme importance in war is to attack the enemy's strategy."

If the number 1 strategy of the Greens on the island and perhaps the Federal Greens nationally, was to destroy the NDP, than the only response by NDP supporters and thus voters is to retaliate and attack the enemy's strategy. And that strategy was making "strategic voting fail." Amen

Thus the NDP wins to fight another day for the environment.


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 23 October 2008 07:30 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nobody wins except Lunn.
"Thus the NDP wins to fight another day for the environment" Thats just juvenile.
You guys are unbelievable.
You simply do not get it.
You should go swim in one of the Lakes that Lunn designates as a waste disposal facility. (At least one in BC I believe).
How is anyone winning when this is happening?
He is the minister for mine polution.
Forget the ndp, the greens in saanich gulf islands behaved disgracefully. They could have easily got rid of Lunn, and sent a loud message to the Con party, if they had loaned their votes to penn (who is a former green anyway) and greener than 90% of green party members.
It was futile and meaningless to give their votes to Lewis. These green candidates dream of being the first in canada and going down in history. Who really gives a shit?
Lewis's delusions of grandeur and green voters delusions that their vote means something if they give it to a loser gifted the riding to Lunn.
The greens and liberals had a pact. Where better to impliment it than Saanich gulf islands?
I would hope that people would learn from this.
Dispite what remind says, results matter, and past historys of candidates matter and should be public knowelege.
By the way, jan. There is no such thing as strategy in first past the post. There is tactics and bluffing. Comparing fptp to any Pro Rep system is like comparing poker to chess.

quote:
Originally posted by janfromthebruce:
"Thus, what is of supreme importance in war is to attack the enemy's strategy."

If the number 1 strategy of the Greens on the island and perhaps the Federal Greens nationally, was to destroy the NDP, than the only response by NDP supporters and thus voters is to retaliate and attack the enemy's strategy. And that strategy was making "strategic voting fail." Amen

Thus the NDP wins to fight another day for the environment.



From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 23 October 2008 07:52 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
You simply do not get it.
Ya, actually we do it is yourself who doesn't.

quote:
You should go swim in one of the Lakes that Lunn designates as a waste disposal facility. (At least one in BC I believe).
Wow, you carry on and on about this but yet do not know?????

quote:
How is anyone winning when this is happening?
He is the minister for mine polution.

And if NOT him there would be some other CPC doing the same damn thing. A point you repeatedly over look. In your thrashing about condemning all and sundry.

quote:
Forget the ndp, the greens in saanich gulf islands behaved disgracefully. They could have easily got rid of Lunn, and sent a loud message to the Con party, if they had loaned their votes to penn (who is a former green anyway) and greener than 90% of green party members.
Well I have to agree, the GP did behave disgracefully in SGI, but not for the reasons you NOW contend. And results don't matter, means do.

quote:
It was futile and meaningless to give their votes to Lewis.
Why it is their vote to do with what they choose. Another fact you constantly overlook.

quote:
The greens and liberals had a pact. Where better to impliment it than Saanich gulf islands?
Wow, and now it was a whole party pact, as opposed to just a leader's pact???? You are incredibly selective with how you are choosing to spin things, and different from time to time, in your animus that Briony did not get elected.

quote:
I would hope that people would learn from this.
Oh most certainly we did. However i expect that you would not like what we learned.

quote:
Dispite what remind says, results matter,
No actually at the end of the day they don't, means matter.

quote:
and past historys of candidates matter and should be public knowelege.
I agree, and too bad the GP sat on it until the best possible time for their "former" member Ms Penn to benifit the most.

quote:
By the way, jan. There is no such thing as strategy in first past the post. There is tactics and bluffing. Comparing fptp to any Pro Rep system is like comparing poker to chess.

Apparently you do not understand that tactics are derived from strategies. And apparently you also do not understand poker.

Say nothing of your recent personal revelation that we have to work within a FPTP system, as we do not have PR, as much as you formerly tried to insist that we conduct ourselves as if we had PR.

Seriously, you need to look at your inconsistencies for what they are and what they are indicating.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 23 October 2008 08:25 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
Nobody wins except Lunn.
"Thus the NDP wins to fight another day for the environment" Thats just juvenile.
You guys are unbelievable.
You simply do not get it.
You should go swim in one of the Lakes that Lunn designates as a waste disposal facility. (At least one in BC I believe).
How is anyone winning when this is happening?
He is the minister for mine polution.
Forget the ndp, the greens in saanich gulf islands behaved disgracefully. They could have easily got rid of Lunn, and sent a loud message to the Con party, if they had loaned their votes to penn (who is a former green anyway) and greener than 90% of green party members.
It was futile and meaningless to give their votes to Lewis. These green candidates dream of being the first in canada and going down in history. Who really gives a shit?
Lewis's delusions of grandeur and green voters delusions that their vote means something if they give it to a loser gifted the riding to Lunn.
The greens and liberals had a pact. Where better to impliment it than Saanich gulf islands?
I would hope that people would learn from this.
Dispite what remind says, results matter, and past historys of candidates matter and should be public knowelege.
By the way, jan. There is no such thing as strategy in first past the post. There is tactics and bluffing. Comparing fptp to any Pro Rep system is like comparing poker to chess.

Hey Brian, my mother always taught me that "two wrongs don't make a right" and that "cheating" should never be rewarded. Those are principles I like to live by and I have taught my 3 girls that.

And you are right: Penn the Green behaved disgracefully. The Green-liberal pact was for her to win and cross the floor to create the first Green seat. West's role was just as deviate in more ways than just what was mentioned in the press. Let's see what he morphs into after the dust settles in this election.

Taking out Lunn would not have changed the Cons minority, nor the direction of the Harper's cons. But playing skulduggery in politics ensures that more Canadians turn off and set back the environmental movement in a bigger way.

I am now going to turn that table of yours back: in that you just don't get it.

Dumping Dion shows Grits not green.

quote:
If the Liberal party were in fact worth making deals with, worth sublimating New Democratic and Green party hopes into, the party would be gathering around Dion and re-committing to selling Canada on his green vision. Instead it’s going straight into the trash can, heading for political landfill rather than being re-cycled and re-purposed in an electorally palatable way to Canadians.

....
quote:
Because this is a party more dripping in ambition than vision, the green policies Dion professed are simply chalked up to a strategic misstep, a come-on that’s now come and gone.

food for thought

quote:
So if progressives want a united front, create, work for and build a party that the fractured left can unite behind. Seems unlikely it will be the policy-hopping-and-dropping Liberals or the barely-there Greens, who can hardly call themselves a party.

Final reflection
quote:
The only two parties that grew significantly during this last, unwanted election were the Conservatives and the NDP. That’s where I see the next clearly defined battleground.

There's food for "strategic" thought.

From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 23 October 2008 10:11 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm still amazed that Brian thinks Canadians should simply vote as he tells them to vote - and yet he still thinks he's a progressive.

Brian, has it occured to your authoritarian little mind that people can disagree with you without being stupid?

If I wanted to vote Liberal, I'd vote Liberal.

Instead, I choose to have principles.

My principles exclude the possibility of voting for a right wing party, no matter how pretty their rhetoric and no matter how many times their candidate has ridden a horse naked.

BTW, if Lunn and the Conservatives been defeated by the Liberals, we would now have a right wing Liberal Minister doing all the same horrible things you pretend you're against.

Now, please stop trying to play the dictator of the world.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 23 October 2008 10:20 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm wondering if Brian White's repeated references to the use of lakes for waste disposal is meant to refer to the reclassification of lakes as dump sites for mining operations. If so, perhaps he ought to consider that the change to the Fisheries Act that makes it easy for the government to do this reclassification was introduced in 2002. If I'm not mistaken, the Liberals governed in 2002.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 23 October 2008 11:02 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:
I'm wondering if Brian White's repeated references to the use of lakes for waste disposal is meant to refer to the reclassification of lakes as dump sites for mining operations. If so, perhaps he ought to consider that the change to the Fisheries Act that makes it easy for the government to do this reclassification was introduced in 2002. If I'm not mistaken, the Liberals governed in 2002.

Oh Pogge, you are so foxy. So cons are going to just dump the waste into the lakes that libs ensured could get polluted. And who was the environmental minister than and in Cabinet? I'll go check.


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
surfdoc
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posted 23 October 2008 11:15 PM      Profile for surfdoc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I agree, and too bad the GP sat on it until the best possible time for their "former" member Ms Penn to benifit the most.

Right, and where is the evidence that the GP released this, let alone "sat on it until the best possible time"?

From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 23 October 2008 11:23 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Since the introduction of Schedule Two of mining effluent regulations under the Fisheries Act, in 2002, 16 lakes have been proposed for reclassification as tailings dumps.

Why look here, if it wasn't a liberal MP from BC who the cabinet minister ahead of the fisheries department. Herb Dhaliwal is the Member of Parliament for the riding of Vancouver South - Burnaby, located in beautiful British Columbia, Canada.


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 23 October 2008 11:26 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by surfdoc:

Right, and where is the evidence that the GP released this, let alone "sat on it until the best possible time"?

You mean like at a Green Party camp?


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 23 October 2008 11:29 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who was the environment minister at that time, Jan?

And it seems never underestimate the power of a Liberal to forget they were the ones to introduce the policy for turning lakes into tailing ponds.

I guess Briony's environmental credentials are not so green after all, if she can sit with those who made the law that Lunn is using. Another indication that Briony has lost all credibility as an environmentalist. No wonder 16,000 people in SGI would not put Penn to paper.

Good job pogge, thanks for that info, that was almost lost down the memory hole.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 23 October 2008 11:45 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Aww, it was David Anderson in 2002, and it seems that Dion stole the kyoto name for his dog from Anderson.

One wonders why he did not fight the 16 lakes into tailing ponds? Moreover, how could the Sierra Club give him an award after he allowed that to happen?


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 24 October 2008 04:37 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Aww, it was David Anderson in 2002, and it seems that Dion stole the kyoto name for his dog from Anderson.

One wonders why he did not fight the 16 lakes into tailing ponds? Moreover, how could the Sierra Club give him an award after he allowed that to happen?



Herb Dhaliwal
quote:
Prime Minister Jean Chrétien appointed Dhaliwal to Cabinet (the first Indian-Canadian to become a federal cabinet minster) in 1997 as Minister of Revenue. In 1999, he became Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, and in 2002 he was appointed Minister of Natural Resources and Minister with political responsibility for British Columbia.

Dhaliwal must have been moved in 2002, but he was Min of NS and responsible for British Columbia.

From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 24 October 2008 05:07 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, I realize Herb Dhaliwal did the dirty deed, but how could David Anderson have let him?

Moreover, how could David Anderson receive an award from the Sierra Club after he essentially let Dhaliwal do such a thing?


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 24 October 2008 05:15 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Good job pogge, thanks for that info...

That's what they pay me the big bucks for.

Um, wait a minute...


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
scott
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posted 24 October 2008 08:56 PM      Profile for scott   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm:
No New Democrat has taken any joy in the fact that this Conservative MP was re-elected. We merely choose not to share in your bizarre delusion that a Liberal MP would have been any improvement.

You would have to be nuts to think that Briony Penn wouldn’t have been an improvement over Gary Lunn . In my opinion Briony Penn’s environmental credential are impeccable. If I were a SGI voter I would have been tempted to vote for the person, rather than the party. We all know that the NDP would have done cartwheels if she had decided to run for them when they asked so it is really weird to see her being dumped on in this thread.

It is obvious that large numbers of Green and dippers switched their votes to Penn but it is sad that more Greens couldn’t bring themselves to do it. At least the Greens had a candidate. I respect people who vote out of principle and find strategic voting very distasteful. I would have voted for Penn if I lived in SGI I think. What is really messed up though is the 3,667 people who voted NDP even though there was no candidate. I believe the term mentioned above is fuckwits.


From: Kootenays BC | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 25 October 2008 04:57 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I haven't noticed whether any of the larger trad media outlets have picked this story up but The Hook at The Tyee is staying on it.
Four Lunn loving groups share one financial agent
quote:
Four of the five third party election advertisers using Conservative lawyer Bruce Hallsor as their contact also have the same financial agent.

Mark Dickinson, the owner and president of Van Isle Marina in Sidney, is the financial agent for Citizens Against Higher Taxes, the Dean Park Advocacy Association, the Economic Advisory Council of Saanich and the Saanich Peninsula Citizens Council.
...
While the Canada Elections Act does not explicitly bar someone from being the financial agent for more than one group, a spokesperson for Elections Canada said it's the kind of thing the agency's auditors may well flag when they review the groups' documents.



That last comment suggests that Elections Canada has noticed so popcorn could be in order down the road.

H/t to Impolitical.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 25 October 2008 06:42 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scott:

I respect people who vote out of principle and find strategic voting very distasteful.


I find strategic voting distasteful too.
But only because the strategic vote does not recieve a qualifier: "this vote would have gone to candidate y if he wasn't so unpopular" or "this is a transfered vote from miss z".
Lets face it, lots of the best candidates will not even be running or will have jumped to a neighbouring riding.
And in fptp strategic voting is heavily influenced by polls, all of which means a corrupting influence on polling companys to show frontrunners who might not really be the frontrunners.
We all have principles. Supposedly many greens voted to send money to the green party or help Lewis recoup his election expenses.
If the man decides to go in debt, thats his choice. There were other candidates too. Vote for someone because they put up lots of signs and bought tv time? Why?
Vote for someone to help him with his bills?
Or vote to rid Canada of a really bad minister?
I really think the second one is a meaningful choice.
Just on the telephone scam. I read that it is not illegal in canada to fake someones caller id!!!! So aparently rcmp are not going to look into it!
This was from the times colonist newspaper.
No wondor we have telephone scam artists stealing credit card info every day!
The americans made caller id fraud an offence about 2 years ago or so according to the same article.

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
TCD
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posted 25 October 2008 07:04 PM      Profile for TCD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scott:
What is really messed up though is the 3,667 people who voted NDP even though there was no candidate. I believe the term mentioned above is fuckwits.

I'd have spoiled my ballot or voted NDP in protest if I had the misfortune to live in the riding.

I couldn't vote for a candidate who:
- Supported extending the war in Afghanistan a single day longer.
- Supported deep and dangerous cuts to corporate taxes.
- Supported regressive tax measures like a carbon tax.
- Planned to deal with the coming recession by making massive cuts to transfers - like the Liberals did in 1995.

That rules out Gary Lunn and Briony Penn and Andrew Lewis and Patricia O'Brien and Dale Leier and Dan Moreau.

Maybe I'd have voted for the Canada Action Party.


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 25 October 2008 07:54 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scott:
...We all know that the NDP would have done cartwheels if she had decided to run for them when they asked so it is really weird to see her being dumped on in this thread.

If Penn would have joined the NDP, or even stayed with the GP, she would not have come under condemnation for:

1. Joining the party that put in place the laws that Lunn is using to turn lakes into tailings ponds.

2. Joining a party that had a useless environmental record which allowed emissions to increase, while promising to decrease them, whilst participating in Kyoto.

3. Joining a party that was promoting regressive taxation

4. Conducting a campaign/candidacy that apparently was lacking scruples, that the Liberals are renowned for.

Plus many other things, as well as those that accompany any association with the Liberals. So it is not so weird at all.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 25 October 2008 10:33 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scott:

You would have to be nuts to think that Briony Penn wouldn’t have been an improvement over Gary Lunn. In my opinion Briony Penn’s environmental credential are impeccable. If I were a SGI voter I would have been tempted to vote for the person, rather than the party. We all know that the NDP would have done cartwheels if she had decided to run for them when they asked so it is really weird to see her being dumped on in this thread.

It is obvious that large numbers of Green and dippers switched their votes to Penn but it is sad that more Greens couldn’t bring themselves to do it. At least the Greens had a candidate. I respect people who vote out of principle and find strategic voting very distasteful. I would have voted for Penn if I lived in SGI I think. What is really messed up though is the 3,667 people who voted NDP even though there was no candidate. I believe the term mentioned above is fuckwits.


Actually, one would have to be "nuts" to think that the election of any Liberal MP would have resulted in any meaningful change of policy - even if that MP had been part of a majority government.

The Liberals had 13 years to address greenhouse gasses - nine years to begin implementing Kyoto.

All they did was rename a pound puppy Kyoto.

Oh, and change legislation and regulations to allow a score of lakes to be polluted more easily.

If Briony Penn had chosen to run as a New Democrat or as a Green (ie, for a party that actually does believe in implementing Kyoto and reducing greenhouse gasses), then I'd have no end of respect for her.

Instead, she chose to be a Liberal.

Now, I don't know about you, Scott, but I have principles. My principles preclude me from voting for a rightwing party. That's because I don't believe in right wing policies. Do make an effort to follow.

Now, because I won't vote for a right wing party, I cannot and will not vote Liberal.

You are certainly free to vote Liberal if you want, Scott. But that, by definition, means that you support right wing policies.

It's a democracy, Scott, and you and Brian are free to support right wing policies if you wish. Indeed, if you are right wing, then it is entirely principled for you to vote Liberal.

However, the fact that you and Brian are both reduced to namecalling suggests that this isn't about principle so much as about ego.

If being principled and casting my vote in a principled fashion makes me a "fuckwit" in your eyes, so be it. You clearly do not support the same principles that I support, nor do you have any respect for democracy.

Thus, you should feel right at home in the Liberal Party of Canada.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
scott
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posted 26 October 2008 10:11 AM      Profile for scott   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
If Penn would have joined the NDP, or even stayed with the GP, she would not have come under condemnation for:

[bunch of thing the liberals do]

Plus many other things, as well as those that accompany any association with the Liberals. So it is not so weird at all.


So it is not about her, it is about her choice of which party to run for. Some people believe that an individual, working within a party, can make a difference. I consider Penn to be a strong and qualified candidate. I think that she would have made an impression of a Liberal caucus and that there would have been a net benefit to the environment.

Before the Green Party was formed, many of the people who eventually went on to form the Green party were NDP (and other party) members and formed "green caucuses" within them. A more pragmatic approach allows working with or within other parties (see Elizabeth May). A more partisan approach lends itself more uncompromising approaches and the formation of separate parties.

My guess is that Penn joined the Liberals because she thought that the Liberals had a better chance of overturning the Cons than the NDP. That is a questionable call as the NDP got slightly more votes than the Liberal did in 2006. I guess that she figured that it would be easier to get dippers to vote Liberal than the other way around. It's a debatable call.


From: Kootenays BC | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 26 October 2008 10:19 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The reality is that nowadays backbencher have virtually no influence whatsoever. If this Penn woman had been elected, she would have been a trained seal forced to vote and speak in lockstep with the Liberal Party bosses and she would quickly vanish from public view. The next Liberal leader is likely to drop environmental issues like a hot potato.

It would have been almost perversely fun to watch someone like Briony Penn being reduced to being a pathethic apologist for the pro-business and eco-terrorist policies of someone like Frank McKenna as the next Liberal leader.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 26 October 2008 10:35 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scott:
So it is not about her, it is about her choice of which party to run for.

No, it is about her, as her choice of what party to run for indicates, a good deal about who Penn is. She was able to throw her environmentalist credential away, by running for a party that has none. And who put the law in place, that so many are angry at Lunn for using. Plus other the nasty things, that the Liberal Party stands for, which she must also, as she chose them.

Say nothing of all the other things.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stunned Wind
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posted 26 October 2008 10:39 AM      Profile for Stunned Wind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have come to these two threads on SGI a little late and have had some trouble following the discussion what with the drift and flaming.

Nevertheless, let’s be perfectly clear about who orchestrated Julian West’s downfall. Andrew MacLeod writing in Focus (a free magazine available on Victoria’s street corners but whose current issues are not online) reports that:

quote:
. . . the Liberals, . . . have taken credit for orchestrating West’s downfall, “The Liberal Party did that,” brags Brad Zubyk, the Liberals’ director of communications in BC for the campaign. “It’s all public domain. Quite frankly, we don’t apologize for it. None of this is particularly hard to find . . . If Jack Layton’s not willing to vet his candidates, we will.”

This is a fine high road to take, but let’s think about the timing. Julian West was the NDP’s candidates for more than a year. He had been active in the riding during all that time. The skinny-dipping incident that the Liberals decided to make a big deal of happened twelve years ago. It was investigated by the police and by the Green Party of which Julian was a member at that time. It was also well reported in the newspapers. So, indeed, it was easy to find. My question is: If the Liberals really believe that this incident demonstrates that Julian is not a suitable candidate for office, then why did they wait so long to do something about it?

Could it be because their main purpose was to force Julian to resign in such a way as to deprive NDP supporters in SGI of an NDP choice? Only they flubbed it and he didn’t resign until after his name was firmly on the ballot?

What an odd situation this created!

I have been following this rather closely especially since I am an SGI voter.

There were big ads in the Times-Colonist from both Green Party (e.g. Guy Dauncey) and NDP supporters (even a sitting NDP MLA – David Cubberley) urging everyone to vote for Briony as a way to dethrone Gary Lunn. As far as I can tell, all of these “progressive” supporters figured it was a done deal. But, as mentioned by others on this thread, are the Liberals really “progressive”? Are they really on the “left”?

And really, what arrogance! To deliberately remove the NDP from the running and then expect NDP supporters to vote for your candidate is a bit much.

Of course, this odd situation got even odder!

The night before the election an automated phoning system called hundreds of SGI voters. The call came from the “Progressive Voters Association of Saanich-Gulf Islands” urging them to vote for Julian. I got one of these calls but my son answered and hung up in the middle of it because we were having dinner. But I have call display and it showed the call as coming from William F Graham. It used the fax number of Bill Graham who is the president of the SGI NDP riding association (Times-Colonist 14Oct). Bill had nothing to do with this call (letter TC 22Oct). This is called “spoofing” and has gotten quite a bit of coverage in the TC.

The next day, election day, the Times-Colonist covered this spoofing incident, which was good. But, they added that “Any vote for West would be considered a spoiled ballot.” Wow, nothing like confusing the voters!

While the TC corrected this the next day, after the election, this was also a little late! “Any vote he [Julian] gets will be reported and counted,” Friend said [Elections Canada spokesperson]. “If he gets the most votes, then he’s elected.”

After the election Briony complained that “the NDP didn’t get their vote out.” I couldn’t believe this comment! And I have been further surprised by how many people are mad at the NDP or their supporters for not having worked to elect Briony. Really. NDP supporters should work hard to elect the person who most benefits from her party’s dirty politicking?

When she was asked about this at a town hall meeting she supposedly said something about how it takes time to get rid of dirty politics. Well, that’s not going to happen if it works!

People seem to think that because Briony is “green”, that this is a good enough reason to vote for her. But she chose to run for the Liberal party. What influence would she really have within that party? Or was it the plan that she defect to the Green Party after her election?

While I am certainly unhappy to, again, have a Conservative “representative”, I really can’t see that Briony and the Liberal party had any more right to the job.

I resent comments like: “A non-candidate receiving that much support is an insult to the democratic process.” (from the editorial of The Saanich News, 17 Oct 2008)

We all have the right to vote as we choose and there were many good reasons to vote NDP in SGI last October 14.


PS When the news of the skinny-dipping incident first made the newspapers, Andrew Lewis, running for the Green Party, is quoted as stating that he knew about the incident, hadn’t intended to do anything about it and that Julian raised the level of debate within the riding. A very decent position to take.

[ 26 October 2008: Message edited by: Stunned Wind ]


From: Well! Now I'm in Victoria-Swan Lake! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 26 October 2008 11:34 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Could it be because their main purpose was to force Julian to resign in such a way as to deprive NDP supporters in SGI of an NDP choice? Only they flubbed it and he didn’t resign until after his name was firmly on the ballot?

Actually, I think quite the opposite in reference to your last point - it ensured that the NDP could not have another candidate put on the ballot. Thus working to "plump their vote" by reducing the number of eligible candidates for voters to choose from.
I also find your local newspaper putting out erroneous information has almost having purposeful intent for the intended outcome. They would have known that a spoiled ballot is only one that is not filled in correctly. I guess that paper was working hard to "plump" the vote too, considering their editorial stance the next day.

''Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive''

[ 26 October 2008: Message edited by: janfromthebruce ]


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stunned Wind
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posted 26 October 2008 02:35 PM      Profile for Stunned Wind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by janfromthebruce:
Actually, I think quite the opposite in reference to your last point - it ensured that the NDP could not have another candidate put on the ballot. Thus working to "plump their vote" by reducing the number of eligible candidates for voters to choose from.
This was my point. They wanted him to resign so close to the deadline that no other NDP candidate could have been put on the ballot BUT their plan was that he should have resigned early enough to get his name OFF the ballot.

From: Well! Now I'm in Victoria-Swan Lake! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
TCD
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posted 26 October 2008 05:00 PM      Profile for TCD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scott:

So it is not about her, it is about her choice of which party to run for. Some people believe that an individual, working within a party, can make a difference. I consider Penn to be a strong and qualified candidate... My guess is that Penn joined the Liberals because she thought that the Liberals had a better chance of overturning the Cons than the NDP. That is a questionable call as the NDP got slightly more votes than the Liberal did in 2006. I guess that she figured that it would be easier to get dippers to vote Liberal than the other way around. It's a debatable call.


My guess is that Penn felt most at home with a Liberal party that was pushing a carbon tax - a regressive policy that she supported when she was a Green.

That's fine. She has every right to run for whatever party she wants to.

However, given that she was running on promises to implement a number of proposals New Democrats opposed (a carbon tax, corporate tax cuts, a war in Afghanistan, etc) why would you expect New Democrats to vote for her? And where do you get off complaining that they didn't?

quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
It would have been almost perversely fun to watch someone like Briony Penn being reduced to being a pathethic apologist for the pro-business and eco-terrorist policies of someone like Frank McKenna as the next Liberal leader.
What about the pro-business eco-terrorist policies of the party she was running for? The Liberals promised to exempt everyone from Irving Oil to the tar sands from their "green shift". The Liberals gleefully attacked Michael Byers when he said the tar sands should be "shut down". Did Briony Penn speak up in his defense? Scott?

From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 26 October 2008 05:55 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stunned Wind:
This was my point. They wanted him to resign so close to the deadline that no other NDP candidate could have been put on the ballot BUT their plan was that he should have resigned early enough to get his name OFF the ballot.

Sorry SW, but I am still not sure of that. Wouldn't it have been (and did) better to have lots of negative political theatre re: loser NDP candidate after the fact then leaving any opportunity for the NDP to even get up a candidate on-name-for-ballet-only? The NDP could have thrown up any name with the form filled in on the deadline and one not associated with inappropriate conduct. Having West's name on the ballet left the negative pairing of person with the NDP and hoped for scheme that reduce the likelihood of NDP leaning voters to vote party.


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 26 October 2008 05:57 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by TCD:
What about the pro-business eco-terrorist policies of the party she was running for? The Liberals promised to exempt everyone from Irving Oil to the tar sands from their "green shift". The Liberals gleefully attacked Michael Byers when he said the tar sands should be "shut down". Did Briony Penn speak up in his defense? Scott?

Good point TCD - no she did not.


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stunned Wind
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posted 26 October 2008 06:14 PM      Profile for Stunned Wind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by janfromthebruce:
. . . Having West's name on the ballet left the negative pairing of person with the NDP and hoped for scheme that reduce the likelihood of NDP leaning voters to vote party.
So you think that they wanted Julian's name left on the ballot? You don't think that Briony would have had a better chance of winning if there had been no NDP name of any kind on the ballot?

Just how quickly can a party come up with a new name to put forward, if the properly elected candidate has to step down? And would that person have been properly chosen by the riding association? Or, does that matter?


From: Well! Now I'm in Victoria-Swan Lake! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 26 October 2008 06:25 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The only way that there would have been no NDP candidate on the ballot at all would have been if Julian West had withdrawn literally five minutes before the deadline to register as a candidate with election Canada.

The Tories in Toronto Centre had their candidate quit ju7st a day before the deadline and they still managed to get another person's name on the ballot by the next day - and that person came in second!


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 26 October 2008 07:34 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stunned Wind:
So you think that they wanted Julian's name left on the ballot? You don't think that Briony would have had a better chance of winning if there had been no NDP name of any kind on the ballot?

Just how quickly can a party come up with a new name to put forward, if the properly elected candidate has to step down? And would that person have been properly chosen by the riding association? Or, does that matter?


Yap, I do. Perhaps their were more cats here than the obvious. Check all your assumptions.


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 26 October 2008 08:13 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scott:

My guess is that Penn joined the Liberals because she thought that the Liberals had a better chance of overturning the Cons than the NDP. That is a questionable call as the NDP got slightly more votes than the Liberal did in 2006. I guess that she figured that it would be easier to get dippers to vote Liberal than the other way around. It's a debatable call.


You may well be right, Scott. If so, then her ethics are find, it's just her judgment that's lacking.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 26 October 2008 08:23 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What it all comes down to is the fundamentally anti-democratic beliefs and attitudes of the Liberal Party as exemplified by both Scott and Brian - specifically their arrogant belief that voting according to principles makes one a "fickwit," and their absolute demand that everyone must cast their principles aside to vote Liberal because the Liberals are entitled to our votes.

Well, no matter how much Scott and Brian hate democracy, I still intend to vote in the manner my conscience dictates - meaning that I will not vote for ANY right wing party.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 28 October 2008 09:24 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps you are completely delusional?
I am not a member of the liberal party and have never voted for them.
You do not need to cast your principles aside.
But it would be nice if you stopped repeating yourself. Everyone believes you now.
You have principles. and they are NDP NDP NDP.
You have got party religion.
I do not.
I vote based on candidate, party and tactical conciderations. The swinging voter!
You are married to the NDP whether they want you or not. You would probably vote for a pigs fart if it secured a NDP nomination.
Whatever. We all have principles to a varying degree. I am not going to stop argueing because some religous party zelot gets upset.
quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm:
What it all comes down to is the fundamentally anti-democratic beliefs and attitudes of the Liberal Party as exemplified by both Scott and Brian - specifically their arrogant belief that voting according to principles makes one a "fickwit," and their absolute demand that everyone must cast their principles aside to vote Liberal because the Liberals are entitled to our votes.

Well, no matter how much Scott and Brian hate democracy, I still intend to vote in the manner my conscience dictates - meaning that I will not vote for ANY right wing party.



From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 28 October 2008 11:22 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
Perhaps you are completely delusional?
I am not a member of the liberal party and have never voted for them.
You do not need to cast your principles aside.
But it would be nice if you stopped repeating yourself. Everyone believes you now.
You have principles. and they are NDP NDP NDP.
You have got party religion.
I do not.
I vote based on candidate, party and tactical conciderations. The swinging voter!
You are married to the NDP whether they want you or not. You would probably vote for a pigs fart if it secured a NDP nomination.
Whatever. We all have principles to a varying degree. I am not going to stop argueing because some religous party zelot gets upset.


(First response edited out since the response you deserve violates too many babble policies.)

Perhaps you should go look at your posts over the course of two threads before you start pussing and moaning about people repeating themselves. Your entire argument may be summarized as follows: "Anyone who didn't vote Liberal in Saanich Gulf Islands is a fuckwit."

I have, in fact, voted on occasion for parties other than the NDP. The principle at stake here is that I am not prepared to vote for a right wing party. I have never done so because my principles preclude it.

Now, we could deal with your delusion that the Liberals are something other than a right wing party, but I don't think there's sufficient bandwidth in the world to conduct the necessary therapeutic intervention.

What this entire discussion comes down to, Brian, is that you refuse to accept the fact that people are not obliged to vote the way you think they should vote. That is anti-democratic.

Finally, you tell me that you are not nor have ever been a member of the Liberal Party. I suppose that may be so. But the fact that you've posted dozens of messages saying that anyone who didn't vote Liberal is a fuckwit, you will understand that I don't believe you.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
ottawaobserver
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posted 29 October 2008 11:22 PM      Profile for ottawaobserver     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stunned Wind:
So you think that they wanted Julian's name left on the ballot? You don't think that Briony would have had a better chance of winning if there had been no NDP name of any kind on the ballot?

Just how quickly can a party come up with a new name to put forward, if the properly elected candidate has to step down? And would that person have been properly chosen by the riding association? Or, does that matter?


Just catching up on this thread now, so I'm a bit slow in throwing this in, but .... candidates have to be nominated by 2 PM on nomination day. They have until 5 PM of that day to withdraw.

For this theory to work, they would have had to get Julian West to step down between 2 PM - 5 PM, but I think the final shoe dropped on that story in the evening if I remember the chronology correctly.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 29 October 2008 11:42 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I will just point out again that nobody forced West to be a candidate and nobody forced him to withdraw either. It was free will all the way. I hope the NDP learns to screen their candidates a bit better. (For the candidates sakes too). It is a very real case of if you cannot stand the heat, do not put your name up for election. And actually I think a candidates past is pertinent if you are electing them to political office.
People get pretty partisan over this. If you step back, and change the names of the party involved, does your opinion change? If it does, I would argue that you are being subjective and unfair in your judgement in both the real and the hypotethical cases.
Brian

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 30 October 2008 04:35 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
I will just point out again that nobody forced West to be a candidate and nobody forced him to withdraw either. It was free will all the way. I hope the NDP learns to screen their candidates a bit better. (For the candidates sakes too). It is a very real case of if you cannot stand the heat, do not put your name up for election. And actually I think a candidates past is pertinent if you are electing them to political office.
People get pretty partisan over this. If you step back, and change the names of the party involved, does your opinion change? If it does, I would argue that you are being subjective and unfair in your judgement in both the real and the hypotethical cases.
Brian

Brian, she lost, and she wasn't even close in beating Lunn, as she lost by 2,641 votes. There were lots more very close races with results alot closer which were heartbreakers, and which those candidates and their voters have moved on.
Often the NDP has to work really hard, and more than once, to possibly win a race.

So let's have a bet: my bet is that after a certain amount of time passing, West will be back in the Green fold in which he came, seeing how the overall Green plot ended up backfiring.


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
ottawaobserver
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posted 30 October 2008 05:33 AM      Profile for ottawaobserver     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Victoria Times-Colonist wrote a story about this whole matter this morning. So far it's focussing more on the robo-calls and third-party spending, but does acknowledge that there are theories being discussed as to how West came to pull out, but that so far no evidence has emerged to support them.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 30 October 2008 05:57 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As noted, what happened around West is peripheral to that story.

There is the potential for Lunn to get seriously nailed on this.

quote:
The spending filings for Saanich-Gulf Islands will be watched closely. If Lunn spent to the limit, and several third-party groups with a common address [all staffed by the Cons riding assoc VP] spent heavily to support him, expect some tough questions.

I think its safe to say that it will be found that Lunn did spend the limit.

But even if Elections Canada filings support the suspicions voiced in the article, I suspect that unfortunately this is going to turn out to be one of those grey areas where clearly the spirit of the rules has been violated, AND there has been some degree of behaviour for which people can and will be charged....

...BUT, in practice, actual prosecution by EC has no clear precededent, which in turn allows the Cons to twist out of grasp.

One can hope that they will pay in public opinion for the sliminess, even if they manage to evade penalties... but they didn't pay a price for the blatant scam aroung national spending limits for the 2006 election.

Granted, this case would be more easily understood by the non-junkie public. But I despair of anything sticking on the Cons without criminal convictions.

The Cons are getting away with murder in systematically pushing on several fronts well beyond the limits of the election financing laws. Game the rules to hobble the Liberals, then deliberately go even to the lengths of obviously illegal acivity to end run the rules that limit themselves.

[ 30 October 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 30 October 2008 07:09 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ottawaobserver:
The Victoria Times-Colonist wrote a story about this whole matter this morning. So far it's focussing more on the robo-calls and third-party spending, but does acknowledge that there are theories being discussed as to how West came to pull out, but that so far no evidence has emerged to support them.

I read the article and it made no reference to West. Was there another article?


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 30 October 2008 07:24 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The link takes you to page 2 of the article.

The robo calls for West paid for by one of these 3rd party outfits, comes up I beleive in the first page.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
ottawaobserver
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posted 30 October 2008 10:11 AM      Profile for ottawaobserver     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yup, you're right. Sorry about that, a slip of the finger. Here's the link to page one.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 30 October 2008 12:03 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One thing I noted in the article is that the number of votes the NDP received most likely did not effect the outcome.
From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 30 October 2008 12:33 PM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Closing for length.
From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged

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