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Author Topic: Dion understates Green Party/May Endorses Dion For Prime Minister
madmax
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posted 28 July 2008 01:25 PM      Profile for madmax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While addressing the GP platform, Dion makes good on EMAYS promotion of Dion for Prime Minister.

This is funny.

quote:
Chris Pike:How do you view your policies in terms of, let's say, those of the Green Party, which presents itself as the environmental party of Canada and has seen a growing support for their policies. Do you see it as a middle ground type of territory?

Dion:I cannot comment so much on the Green Party or their platform. They are more perceived as a one-issue party and I know [party leader] Madame [Elizabeth] May doesn't like that. It's unfair to qualify them this way but it's a bit the way they are perceived. We are the Liberal party, we are a mainstream party, we want a richer and fairer Canada and a greener one. We want to combine the goals. So let's say their plan about the Green Shift and our plan, they start at $50 a tonne of CO2inthe first year, we start at $10. They add to the existing taxes on fuel, we have an excise tax on gasoline at the pump which is 10 cents a litre, which is the equivalent of $42 a tonne of CO2.Wedon't add to this tax, we remove it, and we put the carbon tax in it. It's why we won't tax at the pump more than is the case now. So, we are incremental. We want to help everyone to adapt, to adjust. They [the Green Party] are more radical, but I think they would create a shock that may be detrimental to the goal and Canadians would not follow them anyway. Canadians want to work like we are proposing: resolute but moderate at the same time.

Elizabeth May has been very, very courageous. She has said she wants me as prime minister.
There is one country on this planet where the Green leader has said I want the Liberal leader as prime minister.


Radical. Nice touch.

Green Party Members Red Faced?


From: Ontario | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
mimeguy
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posted 28 July 2008 01:37 PM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is what happens and it is exactly what many of us in the Greens said would happen with the deal and cozying up to a treacherous party like the liberals. The naivety of many Greens that Dion represented something different and non-partisan has come back to haunt them. Well all of us.
From: Ontario | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 28 July 2008 03:00 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This too funny and I wonder if the Green Partyu lackeys are going to realize how they are being exploited by the corporate elite in control of the Liberals and Cons to split the actual progressive votes?
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
NorthReport
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posted 28 July 2008 05:12 PM      Profile for NorthReport     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is a continuing leadership revolt situation festering within the Liberal party, and perhaps now is a good time for some Greens to seriously reflect on their own situation, and to consider working together with the party whose environmental platform has consistently been been ranked either first, or second, by most credible environmental groups in Canada - the NDP. If enough goodwill is exhibited from both sides (the Greens and the NDP), it could do political wonders during this extended period of minority governments in Canada.

quote:
Originally posted by mimeguy:
This is what happens and it is exactly what many of us in the Greens said would happen with the deal and cozying up to a treacherous party like the liberals. The naivety of many Greens that Dion represented something different and non-partisan has come back to haunt them. Well all of us.

From: From sea to sea to sea | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
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posted 29 July 2008 06:49 AM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I recognize that some Greens have been appreciative of Dion- at least he has brought the highest level of environmental rhetoric to the Liberal leadership in history and he has made a Green issue THE central plank of the party. It may not be the best way to address climate change but the level of attention to this file from a Liberal leader is unprecedented.

No doubt some would have to be concerned about any potential leadership issues. When you consider the gaps in perspective between Dion and the Greens, these would likely open into bigger gulfs with a future leader.

This is one of the problems of cozying up to another political party that might from time to time seem close on some issues but in the grander scheme of things remains a very different outfit with different priorities.

Likewise the Greens under May are close to the Liberals under Dion but if May were no longer the leader wider gaps would also open up.

The point is there is no long-term political alignment between the parties and there is no guarantee that even under current leadership that the parties will be as close as the leaders themselves may appear to be.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 29 July 2008 07:17 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Liberals are a party that never leads public opinion. They only follow. They might have decided that the environment is a "flavour of the month" right now, but six month from now they could drop it like a hot potato if they decide that Canadians would rather hear about unemployment or productivity. Meanwhile the so-called greens are left ship-wrecked and viewed as just an appendage of the Liberal party.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
D V
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posted 29 July 2008 07:45 AM      Profile for D V        Edit/Delete Post
North Report,

The single most important co-operative strategem would regard NDP promotion of electoral reform, which at this point would not appear merely self-serving. Too bad the NDP is stuck on its anti-Senate approach (that website satire was funny, though), but if too few (apart from myself, Jeffrey Simpson) care for seeing the Senate as focus for such reform, the Cons. have brought it legislatively up twice already (to toss something to old Reform-ers?), and Dion has spoken not unfavourably of some electoral reform, general Liberal treachery notwithstanding, in the context of the courtesy arrangement with the GPC leader -- certainly & emphatically would this be the best bridge to NDP-GPC co-operation, strongly putting PR out front now & through any campaign, and prospectively doing the NDP itself a favour. And Stockholm's accurate perception about Liberals that "only follow" could apply as well to electoral reform, for there must be some clear-sighted among them that realize the likely enduring regional fragmentations & their own permanent reduction, so if they'd not pick up on it as NDP & GPC put it out front, seeing its poularity & to partly benefit themselves (at least to the detriment of the BQ) they could take it up as well.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 29 July 2008 07:56 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by NorthReport:
...perhaps now is a good time for some Greens to seriously reflect on their own situation, and to consider working together with the party whose environmental platform has consistently been been ranked either first, or second, by most credible environmental groups in Canada - the NDP.
The leader of the Green party would never allow this to happen, while giving every appearance that it should.

quote:
If enough goodwill is exhibited from both sides (the Greens and the NDP), it could do political wonders during this extended period of minority governments in Canada.
That would be ideal, but the GP leadersip would have to change, me thinks, before it would.

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
D V
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posted 29 July 2008 09:51 AM      Profile for D V        Edit/Delete Post
remind,

GPC is more than just its leader. If that is all that is made of it, it's for paying too much attention to the dominant news media, the same that exasperated the Ont. NDP leader, who said "he could have walked naked down Yonge St. without getting any attention." In any case, your & others' presumption of manipulativeness by Eliz. May is not accurate. It is not predictable what would occur between GPC & NDP if the latter would be forthcoming on electoral reform, but it would serve NDP well in itself, and with that, pressure to prove authenticity could be properly put on GPC. It seems to me a less unlikely way for the NDP to eventually overtake Liberals in any case.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 29 July 2008 10:18 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by D V:
GPC is more than just its leader.
Who knew? Oh yes, I forgot about middle night stalker dude, from Owen Sound.

quote:
In any case, your & others' presumption of manipulativeness by Eliz. May is not accurate.
Ya, I think it is, and we have had numerous threads here detailing her actions.

quote:
It is not predictable what would occur between GPC & NDP if the latter would be forthcoming on electoral reform, but it would serve NDP well in itself, and with that, pressure to prove authenticity could be properly put on GPC. It seems to me a less unlikely way for the NDP to eventually overtake Liberals in any case.
Funny isn't it that you the GP want to make the NDP be "forth coming on electoral reform, be fore cooperation between the 2 parties can exist, but yet you sold your souls to the Liberal Party for EMay to run unopposed by the Liberals in Central Nova! That says a great deal, about a lot of things concerning the GP, eh?!

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Greeny
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posted 29 July 2008 10:25 AM      Profile for West Coast Greeny     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, I think the loose collaboration between Dion and May has gone well so far, from an environmentalist's perspective. Neither party has sunk in the polls, and the Green Party's most well known platform plank - the Carbon Tax - will most likely be the central issue of the upcoming campaign.
From: Ewe of eh. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
JimmyRiddle
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posted 29 July 2008 11:00 AM      Profile for JimmyRiddle     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Down in Guelph, the GPC is wasting oxygen telling voters to Let Elizabeth Speak.

Which raises the point: Why bother running May in the debates when she seconds everything Dion says?


From: Soap box | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
ocsi
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posted 29 July 2008 11:22 AM      Profile for ocsi     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by West Coast Greeny:
Hey, I think the loose collaboration between Dion and May has gone well so far, from an environmentalist's perspective. Neither party has sunk in the polls, and the Green Party's most well known platform plank - the Carbon Tax - will most likely be the central issue of the upcoming campaign.

Do you really think a lot of voters will vote for a tax?

I think a lot of people support green initiatives, but voting for a regressive tax is a totally different issue. The whole idea will be torn to shreds during the election campaign and Dion and May will go down with their ill-conceived ideas.


From: somewhere over the rainbow | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged
D V
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posted 29 July 2008 11:24 AM      Profile for D V        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
you the GP want to make the NDP be "forth coming on electoral reform, be fore cooperation between the 2 parties can exist
that does not follow at all from what i wrote, so it's not
quote:
Funny isn't it

and the courtesy i mentioned is hardly "soul-selling"

If Dion somehow squeaks a minority & there is a Senate seat open, it would be good for Eliz. May to take it. If that is an eventual upshot of the courtesy, that sure would be retrojective manipulativeness,

quote:
eh!?

Of course that is not what is intended at all. But just what is so hard about NDP & PR?

Anyone for constructive dialogue?


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 29 July 2008 11:42 AM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Conservatives have always said that to reduce taxation and spending is their policy.
Is this a conservative board?
quote:
Originally posted by ocsi:

Do you really think a lot of voters will vote for a tax?

I think a lot of people support green initiatives, but voting for a regressive tax is a totally different issue. The whole idea will be torn to shreds during the election campaign and Dion and May will go down with their ill-conceived ideas.



From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 29 July 2008 11:57 AM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If the NDP supported electoral reform in deed, for real, they could be called progressive. Dion is putting a carbon tax into his party policy. Carbon tax is a key green demand. Here in BC the ndp is against a carbon tax and the leader is on record as voting no to electoral reform. You want to be called progressive? it helps to be progressive!
One of the nuttier NDP splits in persona is their support of electoral reform federally and rejection of it provincially.
If you do the numbers, the left would almost always do better seatwise if electoral reform had taken place. Instead the ndp hapily waits on the crooked die of fptp to occasionally diliver them a provincial majority that they never deserve. With elecotal reform, In coalition, in left leaning provincial governments, they could be in power 2/3 of the time. I think this would serve NDP voters way better. I do not think the ndp is interested in serving their voters.

quote:
Originally posted by remind:
This too funny and I wonder if the Green Partyu lackeys are going to realize how they are being exploited by the corporate elite in control of the Liberals and Cons to split the actual progressive votes?

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
JimmyRiddle
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posted 29 July 2008 12:12 PM      Profile for JimmyRiddle     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

"If the NDP supported electoral reform in deed, for real, they could be called progressive."
quote:

Really?

In case you missed it, Layton made it a precondition for cooperation in the last campaign.

In this Parliament, BC MP Catherine Bell took up where Ed Broadbent left off.

[ 29 July 2008: Message edited by: JimmyRiddle ]


From: Soap box | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 29 July 2008 12:33 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by JimmyRiddle:
Really? In case you missed it, Layton made it a precondition for cooperation in the last campaign.

In this Parliament, BC MP Catherine Bell took up where Ed Broadbent left off.


Hey jimmy, don't get their way of; spreading BS about the NDP, and indeed themselves, and calling for actions that have already happened in order to say "they want to cooperate with the NDP but the NDP won't".


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
madmax
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posted 29 July 2008 12:43 PM      Profile for madmax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If Dion somehow squeaks a minority & there is a Senate seat open, it would be good for Eliz. May to take it. If that is an eventual upshot of the courtesy, that sure would be retrojective manipulativeness,

Retrojective manipulativeness. That's a mouthful.....

More reason to abolish the Senate. Just the thought of patronage appointments to the Senate make me ill.


From: Ontario | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
D V
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posted 29 July 2008 01:30 PM      Profile for D V        Edit/Delete Post
Does madmax really think that another Harper minority, a real possibility, effectively a majority since barring something major it's hard to see how complacent Canadians would accept another election soon after, and compare the capitulation on the nuclear affair of a few months ago of all seated parties to a false declaration of threat; does madmax really think that a Senate-less Canada in such a scenario is wise? Far wiser to fix it finally and have it serve what function it creatively could to restrain green chamber excesses and be representative of currently underrepresented. like NDP & GPC supporters.
From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 29 July 2008 01:37 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by D V:
Far wiser to fix it finally and have it serve what function it creatively could to restrain green chamber excesses and be representative of currently underrepresented. like NDP & GPC supporters.
Where do you buy your rose coloured glasses I think they are so cool and I could use some.

From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
D V
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posted 29 July 2008 01:38 PM      Profile for D V        Edit/Delete Post
MP Bell's petition page is oddly headed "Action on Climate Change Petition".

My point

quote:
In case you missed it
was to have it put out front.

From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
D V
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posted 29 July 2008 01:46 PM      Profile for D V        Edit/Delete Post
kropotkin1951 has his colour wrong for sure, i can't imagine he likes the tinge to the first part of what i said
From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 29 July 2008 01:48 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by D V:
kropotkin1951 has his colour wrong for sure, i can't imagine he likes the tinge to the first part of what i said
Actually the frist part of your post was so obtuse I couldn't understand it.

From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
D V
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posted 29 July 2008 01:53 PM      Profile for D V        Edit/Delete Post
well i was right then, obtuse is a crummy tinge
From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 29 July 2008 02:04 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
Actually the frist part of your post was so obtuse I couldn't understand it.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 29 July 2008 02:11 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Layton is meaningless. Nobody currently needs his co-operation and so he happily says what he likes.
Lets pretend the provincial ndp's is the same party as the federal ndp. Why the hell will they not diliver PR provincially?
Surely if the NDP dilivered working PR provincially, it would show their true colours?
Carole James voted no to ProRep last time and she will vote no to pro rep in the next referendum too. She is also in favour of 41 votes outvoting 59 votes if the question is fptp or pro rep.
The NDP have had many opertunitys to bring in pro-rep. Provincially all they need is a majority and a law. They have never dilivered.
Action speaks loud. On ProRep, the ndp position is pretty similar to harpers position on anything progressive.

quote:
Originally posted by JimmyRiddle:

Really?

In case you missed it, Layton made it a precondition for cooperation in the last campaign.

In this Parliament, BC MP Catherine Bell took up where Ed Broadbent left off.

[ 29 July 2008: Message edited by: JimmyRiddle ]



From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 29 July 2008 02:48 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh goody, we are playing let's pretend! Gotta love it when people play pretend without a fucking clue, or leg to stand on.

quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
Lets pretend the provincial ndp's is the same party as the federal ndp.
Sorry to burst your pretend bubble full of bull shit, here is a cloth to wipe yourself off, but the provincial NDP parties are not the federal party, nor can they be compared as one unit.

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 29 July 2008 04:22 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
West Coast Greeny:

quote:
Hey, I think the loose collaboration between Dion and May has gone well so far, from an environmentalist's perspective. Neither party has sunk in the polls, and the Green Party's most well known platform plank - the Carbon Tax - will most likely be the central issue of the upcoming campaign.

I’ve said when the Liberal carbon tax trial balloons first went up in May that Dion could finally be useful to environmentalists.

I’d been substantively critiquing the Green carbon tax ‘revenue neutrality’ bargain with the devil ever since they came out with it the year before.

But I also bemoaned that neither the Green Party or the NDP were putting any political umph behind their respective climate change action plans. Having a program is great, but unless you make a priority of pushing it, it’s really just preaching to the choir.

Granted its not easy for the GP or the NDP to make an issue of something. But in both cases, if they want to make it the priority, the message will get across.

So I agree that it’s a good thing that Dion came into the fray. If the Liberal Party wants to make something an issue, it is. And without Dion offering himself up, its unlikely that carbon pricing would be on the radar screen.

But beyond that overlap point I think most of WCG’s post above is self-congratulatory fluff.

I don’t think that outside the self referential GP crowd the Green Party has any ‘well known platform plank’. To the degree they are broadly known for anything it is for being green and being ‘different’ [allegedly not like the others]. Before Dion stole the agenda, there would have been fewer people in a poll who could tell you they knew about a Green proposed carbon tax plan than there are people who say they would vote for the GP.

And I think there is only some chance- and not much- that the carbon tax will “most likely be the central issue of the campaign.” I think its even possible that it may be played out as a main issue by the time we have an election, with just a few Tory attack ads reminding people about it.

But election issue or not, Dion has broken the ice.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
D V
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posted 29 July 2008 05:42 PM      Profile for D V        Edit/Delete Post
KenS's seems to me a good anticipatory point, that "carbon tax" could certainly be less than central to any upcoming campaign.
From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
sandpiper
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posted 09 August 2008 04:16 AM      Profile for sandpiper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, May is coming to bat for Liberal MP Robert Thibault too! Thibault beat Kerr by just over 500 votes last time, so every bit May can do to elect Thibault will help. Thanks Elizabeth!

Elizabeth May's letter in today's Chronicle Herald:

quote:
Your story notes that veteran MP Robert Thibault is opposed by Conservative Greg Kerr, described as a former finance minister. It should also be remembered Mr. Kerr was the minister of environment in the early 1980s.

As such, he was the last minister of environment in this province to approve the use of Agent Orange, the 50-50 mix of 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T, on Nova Scotia forests, forcing my family and a dozen other residents of Eastern Nova Scotia into court. By the time our epic court case was over, action by the U.S. regulator had banned the export of the 2,4,5-T, which had been banned in the U.S. years earlier.



From: HRM | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged

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