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Author Topic: Cons abandon Canadian woman to rot in a Mexican jail.
mary123
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posted 10 March 2008 08:06 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's too bad poor Brenda Martin isn't an unborn fetus because then the Harper conservatives would be rushing to save her human rights. Instead an adult Brenda Martin is on suicide watch in a Mexican prison.

quote:
The supporters of a Canadian woman imprisoned in a Mexican jail say she has been moved into her prison's hospital room for her own safety.

They say Brenda Martin is under a 24-hour suicide watch.

Martin's friend, Debra Tieleman, says it's to ensure Martin doesn't hurt herself.

Tieleman and Martin's mother, Marjorie Bletcher, say Martin's mental and physical health have been deteriorating as she awaits a new ruling in the Mexican courts.

Martin, who is from Trenton, Ontario, has been imprisoned in connection with a fraud scam operated by her former boss, who is now serving time in an American prison.

Martin has always maintained her innocence -- a claim backed up by her former boss.

She has not been convicted of any crime....

They also say the Canadian government has done little to help


Do these lazy Cons ever get off their well fed arses and do ANY work to help Canadians abroad?
Canadian jailed in Mexico put on suicide watch

[ 10 March 2008: Message edited by: mary123 ]

[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Will S
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posted 10 March 2008 11:54 AM      Profile for Will S        Edit/Delete Post
I saw a phone interview with her on a CBC TV morning show this weekend. It was heartbreaking. She sounds as though she's really at the end of her rope. The prison conditions sound unbearable and it seems her international human rights were not respected. Cases like this, and the Conservatives' decisions not to interfere to protect refugees at risk of abuse if they are forced to return to a country that does not respect their rights, really make me sick to my stomach.
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Politics101
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posted 10 March 2008 02:33 PM      Profile for Politics101   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
What precisely do you want done - send in an elite armed force and shoot everyone in sight and try and free her.

If a foreign government is holding another country's nationals there isn't a lot that the Canadian government can do - yes they can try diplomacy - yes you could threaten a boycott but if the other country won't budge what else do you suggest.


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mary123
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posted 10 March 2008 02:56 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
IF you tried , IF you tried , IF you tried!!
That is the f****** problem the Harper New Government Conservatives have done f*** all and tried NOTHING for this poor women not even a simple request to bring books into the prison for her so she can escape the horror thru her imagination in the stories.

The woman doesn't even speak Spanish and from what I saw of the CTV documentary some unscrupulous lawyer ran off with her life savings and so she remains a vegetable in a prison while the Harper Conservatives twiddle their thumbs. Why don't the Cons do their freakin' jobs they get very well paid for a change. The Canadian embassy in Mexico was on a constant siesta or tequila booze fest when reporters came knocking asking for help. Aye carumba you lazy asswipes.

Lazy fat bastards these Cons - as lazy and as self entitled as their just as lazy Liberals living high off the hog. Asswipes one and all!

[ 10 March 2008: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 10 March 2008 03:07 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thread title: Cons abandon Canadian women to rot in a Mexican jail

Question: How many women are we talking about here?


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 10 March 2008 03:12 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anyone know what the real story is here?

All I caught on the radio today was that after 10 months as a chef, she was given $20,000 in "severance pay".


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mary123
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posted 11 March 2008 06:18 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
M. Spector sorry you are right it is only one woman in Mexico. (But as a whole women in Canada are being abandoned in Canada by the Cons who want to piecemeal take away our rights and freedoms but that's another thread!)
From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 11 March 2008 06:29 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Guillermo Cruz (Martins lawyer) said Ontario native Brenda Martin now faces more time in custody before proceeding with a criminal trial or appealing the ruling handed down in a Mexican federal court.

Cruz had sought to have the charges thrown out on the grounds that Martin's human rights were violated when she was denied access to an interpreter during interrogation by Mexican police.

"I was completely surprised," Cruz said of the ruling in an interview. "We found several flaws in this procedure. Until I have the opportunity to read and to have that decision in my hands, I won't know why the court decided to dismiss our claim."


quote:
Debra Tieleman, Martin's childhood friend, said she is "incredulous" at the latest decision and greatly concerned for Martin's physical and emotional well-being.

She heaped criticism on the Canadian government and on Helena Guergis, secretary of state for Foreign Affairs, whom she accused of failing to take Martin's case seriously.

"Where has Canada been in this case? They (Mexican authorities) are railroading a Canadian citizen, and the Canadian government is standing by and watching them do it," she said.


Languishing in jail.

Where are the Cons in all this? They are too busy interfering in America's foreign affairs and leaking internal memos to bamboozle Barack Obama's nomination process than doing their God given elected job duties and helping Canadian citizens in trouble abroad. Oh and helping enact antiwomen laws at home. Yeah they are busy.

These are the priorities of the Cons.

[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 11 March 2008 06:32 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Martin, who is from Trenton, Ontario, has been imprisoned in connection with a fraud scam operated by her former boss, who is now serving time in an American prison.

Martin has always maintained her innocence -- a claim backed up by her former boss.



From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 11 March 2008 06:47 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
She is certainly entitled to a trial and as soon as possible, something the Canadian government could insist on... but not over the rights of other disentitled prisoners being denied this right. Mexcan jails and indeed its justice process are notoriously bad. As for being let out on bond, on the simple word of her alleged accomplice..., the Mexican government may well feel that she will leave the country, with her support team using the fraud's rewards as soon as she is. Indeed, I imagine that they may be holding her to try and get some of the stolen money back.
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 11 March 2008 08:06 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm having trouble understanding what the fuss is about here.

There are two alleged abuses:

1. She was "initially interrogated" without the benefit of an interpreter. If that was a denial of justice (I don't know the law in Mexico - in Canada you can just say nothing if you want), it has been rejected by the court as a ground for invalidating the charges.

2. The length of time till a trial. Canada has been holding the "Mississauga 18" (or however many are left) for about the same length of time - others much longer under "security certificates" etc. If they consider her a flight risk, I imagine they won't allow bail. If she's been charged with multi-million dollar money laundering (which I don't know, because I can't see the exact charges) and being part of a scam operation, and she's not a Mexican national, I can see they might consider her a flight risk.

Having said that, do we know why it has taken 2 years? Is she asking to go to trial right away? Is it possible that the trial has been delayed by the unsuccessful constitutional challenge filed by her lawyers, which obviously had to be heard before she went to trial?

In short - what is the actual abuse here?

When Canadians are held by our "friends", our government does nothing. These days, it doesn't even ask for clemency. When I see evidence that the Mexican justice system is less fair to accused persons than those of its NAFTA partners, I'll get more worked up.


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Fidel
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posted 11 March 2008 11:42 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's likely our weak and ineffective "leaders" in Ottawa will do absolutely nothing for some time. My guess is it will take an NDP MP to get things rolling as it was with Maher Arar and the U.S.S.A.-Syrian travesty of justice.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 11 March 2008 11:46 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
It's likely our weak and ineffective "leaders" in Ottawa will do absolutely nothing for some time. My guess is it will take an NDP MP to get things rolling as it was with Maher Arar and the U.S.S.A.-Syrian travesty of justice.

What will an NDP MP do, Fidel? Send in the commandos? Spring her from jail? What would you do?


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mary123
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posted 11 March 2008 11:57 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But there is little evidence that she did anything more for the rip-off artists than keep their liquor cabinet well-stocked, make them meals and take the ringleader's elderly mother jewellery shopping. That's hardly the resume of an international racketeer. So if it takes a call from Prime Minister Stephen Harper to Mexican President Felipe Calderon to win her release -- or at least have the Mexican government reveal any evidence it has that she is a money launderer -- then Mr. Harper should make such a call.

quote:
This case has moved beyond the point where local efforts by Canadian diplomats in Mexico can resolve the matter. At the very least, Maxime Bernier, Foreign Affairs Minister, must appeal directly to his Mexican counterpart. Or Mr. Harper may have to call Mr. Calderon.

Try Brenda Martin or let her go free.


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 11 March 2008 12:03 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From the same editorial:

quote:
If Mexico wants Canadians' vacation dollars, it has to ensure Ms. Martin is released or tried (preferably released) and that our citizens are no longer subject to Third World justice.

This racist smelly stench has surrounded this story from day one. I'm mildly surprised it took this long for the neo-con media to make it explicit.

The Post doesn't explain why they want this person "released". Perhaps they were in on the pyramid scam and know that she wasn't involved??

I'm still trying to understand why the trial has been delayed. Could it be her lawyer's application to have the charges turfed on constitutional grounds?

Has she been abused in prison? Other than threatening suicide, I mean.

I'm having a whole lot of difficulty understanding why the Canadian government should be doing any more than what it's doing in this matter.

Personally, I'm checking the travel sites for deals on Mexican vacations.


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mary123
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posted 11 March 2008 12:12 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I personally love Mexico very, very much and have met some of the most amazing people ever there. Mexicans rock.

This CTV article from mid February gives a more complete overview of the situation taken from the CTV documentary I saw. I'd say some of her problems stem from the reason that
Martin has had a series of ineffective or incompetent lawyers.


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 11 March 2008 12:14 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

What will an NDP MP do, Fidel? Send in the commandos? Spring her from jail? What would you do?


They might try embarrassing our stooge coalition into doing something more than nothing? She is a Canadian citizen, right?


Who Really Cares about Brenda Martin?

quote:
Martin’s Toronto lawyer, Guillermo Cruz Rico, said that a review of the legal file showed that consulate officials were notified of Martin’s incarceration on Feb. 18, 2006, but it was not until Dec. 14, 2007, that a representative made official inquiries to the Mexican court about her legal status.


Deb Tieleman, Martin’s best friend, and Cruz Rico met with Helena Guergis in Ottawa early this month to discuss what should be done to help Ms. Martin. Despite Martin’s repeated calls to Tielman’s cell phone during the meeting Ms. Guergis refused to talk to Martin.

Guergis assured them that the federal government had done everything it could for Martin. Tieleman described Guergis’ nature during the meeting as “arrogant” and said Guergis left after only half an hour. . .

So whom do we believe? Has the government really done all it should have from the start for Brenda Martin, or is Helena Guergis trying to cover up government ineptitude with claims of good works and warnings not to criticize what we perceive as a poor job?

Katy Austin is the NDP candidate in the federal riding of Simcoe-Grey.


From "Midnight Express", Ahmet to Billy Hayes:
Where are you going? Why don't you walk the wheel with us? What is the matter my American friend? What has upset you? Oh! I know. The bad machine doesn't know that he's a bad machine. You still don't believe it. You still don't believe you're a bad machine? To know yourself is to know God, my friend. The factory knows, that's why they put you here. You'll see... You'll find out... In time, you'll know.

[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 11 March 2008 02:05 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Several people have asked what the Harper government could be expected to do (beyond making diplomatic overtures... nearly two years after she was initially detained). I'd say that they should inform the Mexican government that Canada will issue a travel advisory warning Canadians that they cannot except to receive fair treatment under the Mexican judicial system if they are detailed while in the country. That should get their attention.
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Will S
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posted 11 March 2008 02:36 PM      Profile for Will S        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:
Several people have asked what the Harper government could be expected to do (beyond making diplomatic overtures... nearly two years after she was initially detained). I'd say that they should inform the Mexican government that Canada will issue a travel advisory warning Canadians that they cannot except to receive fair treatment under the Mexican judicial system if they are detailed while in the country. That should get their attention.

An excellent idea.


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unionist
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posted 11 March 2008 02:48 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:
I'd say that they should inform the Mexican government that Canada will issue a travel advisory warning Canadians that they cannot except to receive fair treatment under the Mexican judicial system if they are detailed while in the country. That should get their attention.

Scott, could you identify precisely what unfair treatment this person has received, before our government makes an ass of itself?

You may also want to wonder about why, fired for misconduct after 10 months as a chef, she received a "severance payment" of $26,000 from her employer, who was later convicted of bilking customers out of $60 million. That's just in case there's any question about prima facie cause.

I'd like to see Canada demand freedom for Omar Khadr and clemency for Ronald Allen Smith. The National Post may have had editorials about them as well, but I didn't notice any calls for Canadians to boycott the U.S. over these cases.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 11 March 2008 03:39 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This world is not a perfect place for many reasons.
Regardless of how f***** up the world is I demand our New Government Conservatives help out this poor woman and put pressure on the Mexican gov't to try her or free her ... very simple.

From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 11 March 2008 05:38 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Paul Martin intervenes in Mexican case
quote:
Former prime minister Paul Martin is personally intervening in the case of a Canadian woman who has been imprisoned in Mexico without trial for more than two years and is believed to be suicidal.

Martin met Tuesday with Mexico's vice-minister of foreign affairs to press the case of 51-year-old Brenda Martin.

The former prime minister - who is not related to the woman - is in Mexico City for meetings aimed at expanding the G8 to include a dozen more countries, including Mexico.



Via B'n'R who got it from A Creative Revolution.

From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 11 March 2008 05:50 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We Martins stick together and know all there is to know about what strings to pull to escape sanctions for off-shore wheelings & dealings....
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 11 March 2008 06:07 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
I'd like to see Canada demand freedom for Omar Khadr and clemency for Ronald Allen Smith. The National Post may have had editorials about them as well, but I didn't notice any calls for Canadians to boycott the U.S. over these cases.

The NDP has called for retaliatory actions against the American bullies on a range of issues when Ottawa has done nothing as a rule.

We're talking about a country where the CLC has bailed union activists from prison on fairly regular basis.

Brenda Martin is in a hospital and on suicide watch after sitting in a Mexican prison for two years. I think we should set aside our partisan politicking for a moment and consider a fellow Canadian citizens' right to a timely trial and due process.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 11 March 2008 06:34 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
I think we should set aside our partisan politicking for a moment and consider a fellow Canadian citizens' right to a timely trial and due process.

Good. Now explain to me if she has been asking for a quick trial, or instructing her lawyer to have the charges turfed through a constitutional challenge, which just failed in recent days.

And explain to me what "due process" she has not been afforded.

When the National Post ridicules "Third World justice", my instinct tells me to side with the "Third World" until such time as there is absolute 100% unmistakable proof that they have done something wrong.

I am proudly partisan on that point. I don't think those brown-skinned mestizo Mexicans are inferior to our robed and wigged justices.

That's my partisanship, Fidel, and I'm sticking to it.


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unionist
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posted 11 March 2008 06:42 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From pogge's linked article:

quote:
Her lawyer, Guillermo Cruz Rico of Toronto, said his office in Mexico City received the judge's ruling today. It is 800 pages long and will take days to wade through before a decision can be made on an appeal.

Oh, those Third World primitive kangaroo courts, denying her "due process". It's awful. The pages are probably all blank or filled with cartoons. Can't get decent help in those Third World countries, dontcha know.


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Fidel
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posted 11 March 2008 06:52 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
And explain to me what "due process" she has not been afforded.

Apparently Brenda's lawyer says there is no evidence in her Mexican file to support the charges against her. I don't know, I'm not a lawyer.

quote:
I am proudly partisan on that point. I don't think those brown-skinned mestizo Mexicans are inferior to our robed and wigged justices.

That's my partisanship, Fidel, and I'm sticking to it.


Apparently the CLC and various human rights groups aren't as thrilled about Central American prisons or Mexican justice. SOA Watch groups in the US and Canada aren't high on Mexico either. This is a country where striking teachers were tear-gassed, beaten by polizia and thrown in prison in this decade. Fascism knows no borders or skin colour, unionist. Think Midnight Express and Billy Hayes, and perhaps worse. They put children in adult prisons with adults sharing the same cells in those shithole countries, or "the backyard" as Uncle Sam has referred to it.

[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 11 March 2008 06:55 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'll be impressed when we start boycotting the U.S. over Khadr and Ronald Allen Smith and boycotting Canada over our security certificates and the Mississauge 18. Until then, we should be very careful about looking down our noses at Mexico. Especially when we can't even identify the precise "human right" of which the accused is being deprived.
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mary123
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posted 11 March 2008 07:12 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
I'll be impressed when we start boycotting the U.S. over Khadr and Ronald Allen Smith and boycotting Canada over our security certificates and the Mississauge 18. Until then, we should be very careful about looking down our noses at Mexico. Especially when we can't even identify the precise "human right" of which the accused is being deprived.

So go open up your own threads and rail against that. You've made you're point many times here about Brenda Martin. Stop trying to make this about thumbing our noses against Mexico and further.
Helk start a thread about the National Post thumbing their noses against Mexico if it offends you so much. This thread is about Brenda Martin.
Enough of the boring ego pissing matches.

[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 11 March 2008 07:13 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're a hard taskmaster. I think we should be capable of looking down our noses at colonial administrators in Ottawa, third world banana republics under the thumb of gringo imperialism, and the gob and pail all at the same time. I think it would be odd to believe some percentage of brown people are not capable of certain things? And they have demonstrated it on several occasions in this decade. The struggle for democracy and human rights is still taking place in every every country in this hemisphere as far as I can tell.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 11 March 2008 07:22 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ottawa sends diplomatic note on behalf of imprisoned woman
quote:
The government of Canada has sent a diplomatic note to Mexico expressing its concern over the case of an Ontario woman who has been imprisoned for more than two years without trial and who is believed to be suicidal.

The office of Foreign Affairs Minister Maxime Bernier confirmed Tuesday night that a note had been sent - an official show of support long lobbied for by supporters of 51-year-old Brenda Martin.



From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 11 March 2008 07:27 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by mary123:

This thread is about Brenda Martin.

Find me a post where I have not spoken about Brenda Martin.

Perhaps you mean it's a thread only for those who side with Brenda Martin against the Mexican judiciary and want her freed immediately?

Ah, if life were so simple.


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pogge
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posted 11 March 2008 07:29 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
Now explain to me if she has been asking for a quick trial, or instructing her lawyer to have the charges turfed through a constitutional challenge, which just failed in recent days.

The constitutional challenge was due to Mexico's failure to provide Martin with a translator which was Mexico's obligation based on treaties to which it is a signatory. In other words, the constitutional challenge and the delay involved is a result of Mexico's screwup in the first place.

As for the other injustices you mention, they are truly injustices. But why should Martin suffer because our government won't stand up for Khadr? That's a rhetorical question and by that I mean I don't want an answer. You seem determined to drag this off track and I have no interest in aiding and abetting.


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unionist
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posted 11 March 2008 07:36 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:

The constitutional challenge was due to Mexico's failure to provide Martin with a translator which was Mexico's obligation based on treaties to which it is a signatory. In other words, the constitutional challenge and the delay involved is a result of Mexico's screwup in the first place.


If you don't know the answer to my question, say so. I'm asking it because I really want an answer. How long have her lawyers been fighting this "constitutional" motion about the lack of an interpreter - which gave rise to an 800-page court decision? One week? One year? Have they ever petitioned the court to just try her on the charges and get it over with? Has she ever demanded a quick trial as far as we know?


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mary123
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posted 11 March 2008 07:36 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you pogge well put.
From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 11 March 2008 07:38 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In fact, tell me this: Why the claim that she has not had her day in court, when the court has just issued an 800-page decision?? It would make this issue much clearer if someone just came forward with an explanation of what has really been going on for the past two years.

There are 13 Canadian nationals in Mexican prisons. What about the rest of them?

I have trouble understanding what is special about this particular case, other than Paul Martin taking a personal interest.


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ohara
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posted 11 March 2008 07:47 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
It seems that the Brenda martin case is not the only one dealing with a candian citizen wrongly imprisoned in a foreign country.

The Conservatives have to get a grip here and show some gumption. Wasnt it President Sarkozy who flew to Yemen and demanded that three french prisoners be released...as they were.

Saul Itzahyek


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martin dufresne
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posted 11 March 2008 09:04 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, a great step forward for justice and peace in the Middle East would be for Canada to demand from its ally the immediate release of the many thousands of civilian Palestinian prisoners in its jails. Instead of this we go on shoveling weapons and millions of dollars to buttress a murderous integrist rogue State that tramples UN resolutions and international conventions and assassinates more civilians every day.
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Fidel
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posted 11 March 2008 09:36 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

I have trouble understanding what is special about this particular case, other than Paul Martin taking a personal interest.


Mexico is a human rights shithole among a bevy of human rights shitholes in Latin America and of which our Liberal and Conservative stooges alike have wined and dined with those countries' officials and signed trade deals with over the years. Paul Martin and his former boss should likely know some of on a first name basis by now.


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unionist
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posted 11 March 2008 09:41 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:

Mexico is a human rights shithole ...


Ah, so who are the other 12 Canadians being held in Mexican prisons, Fidel - or do you only wake up and stretch when the mainstream media call?


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Fidel
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posted 11 March 2008 09:55 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

Ah, so who are the other 12 Canadians being held in Mexican prisons, Fidel - or do you only wake up and stretch when the mainstream media call?


How many times have I and others here wrote about human rights atrocities in Latin America here on babble ? Colombia and El Salvador and Haiti and Guatemala aren't the only human rights shitholes in Latin America. Set your own alarm clock for stun.


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unionist
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posted 11 March 2008 10:06 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:

How many times have I and others here wrote about human rights atrocities in Latin America here on babble ?


Ah, so it's all of Latin America now. Great. Much easier to call them "shitholes" than to explain exactly what human rights violations have been committed in Brenda Martin's case. For example, maybe you could find the "treaties" that pogge said upthread Mexico violated by not providing Brenda Martin with a translator at some undefined point in her story. Do some research, man, don't just namecall.


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laine lowe
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posted 11 March 2008 10:47 PM      Profile for laine lowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mexico certainly has human rights and judicial rights issues to contend with. Here is what Amnesty International has to say:

Amnesty International - Mexico

At the same time they have not singled out Brenda Martin as being someone unjustly detained or prosecuted by Mexican officials.

I think this case is very sad but at the same time, I don't see this as a gross miscarriage of justice because I have not seen or read anything proving that just yet. I do think Canadian consular services have been pretty much crap for years and that they should have advised her better than they did but the same applies to the service provided in all countries these days.

I think that Brenda Martin was ill-advised from the get go and that into her second year of detention, she finally got a power house law firm (her new lawyer is with Eddie Greenspan's firm) to represent her. They brought up the constitutional challenges that were recently defeated. Our crappy media hasn't exactly been thorough in reporting why their challenge was rejected.

We have no idea what the evidence against her is yet everyone is demanding that she be freed unconditionally. Like unionist, I find that stance very bewildering. Canada's track record of fighting for just prosecution is not exactly great lately.

I don't know what the Mexican prosecution team has against her but I do think that her defense team is trying to shame Mexico into dropping the charges as opposed to proving her innocent.

I don't like the fact that in Mexico, the justice system is set up such that you are guilty until proven innocent. That does make it harder to defend the innocent. But I also dislike the general superior tone taken by the media that paints "third world" countries as being corrupt and not worthy of respect.

[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: laine lowe ]


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mary123
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posted 12 March 2008 12:27 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If Paul Martin is able to help Brenda Martin and upstage the Harper Cons on the diplomatic front well You go Paul! If it takes a former Prime Minister to embarrass the Cons well whatever it takes muchacho.

Previous Canadian women were also falsely accused in recent years in Mexico, so their justice system is not fool proof.

quote:
Mexican officials named Cheryl Everall and Kimberly Kim of Thunder Bay as prime suspects after Domenic and Nancy Ianiero, of Woodbridge, Ont., were found in their hotel room with their throats slashed on Feb. 20, 2006. The Thunder Bay women had been staying in the same luxury resort as the Ianieros, who were in Mexico to attend their daughter's wedding.

After the women were accused, Mexican authorities in turn weathered accusations that they had conducted an inept investigation and were trying to scapegoat foreigners to avoid damaging the lucrative tourism industry during its prime season....

On their website, the Thunder Bay women say one of the potential dangers of travelling in Mexico is being falsely accused by the justice system of committing crimes.

"For us, it was only a matter of 12 hours that allowed us to safely return to Canada. If it wasn't for these 12 hours, we would have been arrested and put in jail, awaiting a lengthy process to come back to Canada, if at all," the women warn on the website.
"…We are no different from any other Canadian citizen. Therefore, until policies are in place to protect citizens wrongfully accused of crimes they did not commit, what happened to us can happen to you!"


Other Canadian women falsely accused by Mexican authorities

[ 12 March 2008: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 12 March 2008 12:28 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is the website the 2 falsely accused Canadian women set up.

Mexico Injustice

quote:
Given the utter incompetence and negligence demonstrated by both Minister MacKay and his junior Helena Guergis, we demanded their immediate resignations, a demand that to date remains unacknowledged.

Gee what a surprise!!!

[ 12 March 2008: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 12 March 2008 03:40 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fascinating how the MSM works.

Yesterday, CBC quoted Brenda Martin's Toronto lawyer (Guillermo Cruz) as saying he thought there was "no STRONG evidence" against his client, and he was confident they'd win at trial.

When I looked for that quote today - it had been deleted from the story, and all that was left was his confidence at winning.

I thought I'd been smoking something, so I did a Google search on "Brenda Martin" and "no strong evidence". Sure enough, the words came up again - but when you click on all the links, you can't find them!

Try it for yourself as a fascinating object lesson in how the media operate. Do it fast before Google reflects the censored versions.


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pogge
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posted 12 March 2008 03:54 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
If you don't know the answer to my question, say so.

I gave you some information you apparently didn't have. You're welcome. Next time I won't bother.

quote:
I'm asking it because I really want an answer.

Then get off your ass and do your own damn research instead of stomping your little feet in the middle of the thread and demanding that everyone else bear the burden of your education.


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unionist
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posted 12 March 2008 03:59 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:
I gave you some information you apparently didn't have. You're welcome. Next time I won't bother.

You claimed Mexico violated some "treaties" by not providing a "translator".

Thank you very much for that "information". Just some followup questions:

1. What treaties were you referring to? I did some searching and haven't found anything. Give me a hint.

2. How did the Mexican court deal with that argument in its 800-page decision?

3. What makes you think this individual has been denied due process (other than the issue of a "translator", which has apparently been dismissed after a lengthy trial)?


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pogge
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posted 12 March 2008 04:43 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
She was also initially denied a lawyer. Beyond that, which part of "Next time I won't bother" didn't you get?
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 12 March 2008 04:54 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by mary123:
Previous Canadian women were also falsely accused in recent years in Mexico, so their justice system is not fool proof.

That's another bizarre story. No one would ever have heard of these two women being "falsely accused" if they hadn't gone to the media, put up their website, started their petition, and kept on about it for two years now.

They were never arrested.

There has never been an extradition request.

They were never even charged with any crime.

Long after the MSM had forgotten about them, they were interviewed by the Star in August 2007, which said:

quote:
Two Thunder Bay women say they remain prisoners in their own country because they are still suspects in the brutal murders of Domenic and Nancy Ianiero in Mexico 18 months ago.

Two days later, this:

quote:
Mexican authorities say two Thunder Bay women are not suspects in the brutal Ianiero murders and should have no fear travelling outside Canada.

"In no way is their liberty in jeopardy should they decide to leave Canada either to the United States, or Mexico or anywhere," embassy spokesperson Mauricio Guerrero told the Toronto Star yesterday.

"They should absolutely have no fear," he said.

[...]

Guerrero said unequivocally the two women are not subject to warrant or arrest, but Liberal MP Dan McTeague (Pickering-Scarborough East), who has championed the women's effort to clear their names, said "Let's see them put that in writing then."


Yeah, that's right - Dan McTeague. Same guy. He's a pro.

Oh, surprise: the Thunder Bay women haven't posted the Mexican authorities assurances on their website. They're still claiming they are "suspects".

quote:
Originally posted by pogge
Beyond that, which part of "Next time I won't bother" didn't you get?

The part I don't get is, why you didn't bother to collect some facts before posting? Why you don't answer my questions about your allegations re "treaties"? And why you're adopting such a hostile tone? Do I owe you money or something?

[ 12 March 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]


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ohara
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posted 12 March 2008 05:25 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Yes, a great step forward for justice and peace in the Middle East would be for Canada to demand from its ally the immediate release of the many thousands of civilian Palestinian prisoners in its jails. Instead of this we go on shoveling weapons and millions of dollars to buttress a murderous integrist rogue State that tramples UN resolutions and international conventions and assassinates more civilians every day.
Martin take a valium or read what this thread is about..its serious and ought not be derailed.

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martin dufresne
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posted 12 March 2008 06:58 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It was a valid comment on your own gung-ho quip about wrongly imprisoned people and the Canadian gov't's responsibility:
quote:
The Conservatives have to get a grip here and show some gumption.
Don't sneer at people when you're defending a fascist State, ohara.

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 12 March 2008 07:23 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Apparently there's a U.S. woman (Rebecca Roth) in prison in Mexico charged as part of the same internet fraud operation.

You'll recall Waage gave Brenda Martin $26,000 when he fired her after 10 months as a chef.

In Roth's case, Waage deposited $50,000 in her bank account, which she said was to pay his expenses and her salary.

While it dates from April 2007, you can read the whole bizarre account here. Make sure to read the comments also, as some of them are from people who know the accused personally.


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martin dufresne
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posted 12 March 2008 07:31 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For me this relates to how the media will throw their support behind people charged with crimes when they feel there is a good "story" there to increase sales. I see the "men's rights" lobby, for instance, take advantage of this pattern all the timr when they paint their members as unjustly victimized by the justice system. "Confessional" stories - where in fact the subject confesses nothing, au contraire! - are a great draw for audiences who want to see the justice system as misguided, members of dominant groups as horribly victimized by a justice system some people (women, Native Canadians, 3rd World countries) are abusing.
This is not unlike the media's relentless attacks on the democratic process in countries deemed "failed" or "rogue" states by the Western propaganda machine.

[ 12 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


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Fidel
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posted 12 March 2008 07:33 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by mary123:
If Paul Martin is able to help Brenda Martin and upstage the Harper Cons on the diplomatic front well You go Paul! . . .
Other Canadian women falsely accused by Mexican authorities

Our Liberals flip-flopped on their election campaign promises and signed a free trade deal with Mexico while ignoring gross human rights violations still marring that country's struggle for democracy today. It looks like the Liberals' NAFTA flip-flop hasn't improved things for a large percentage of Mexicans or visitors to their country. Cart-horse?


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mimeguy
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posted 12 March 2008 08:28 AM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think Unionist has been asking very relevant questions. This is from a story I found from the Global Calgary web site. http://tinyurl.com/2gttvc

quote:
McTeague, first raised Martin’s case in the House of Commons a year ago and has been pressing Guergis to intervene in the 51-year-old woman’s case. He said he is travelling to Mexico, at his own expense, to maintain pressure on both countries to expedite Martin’s case.
Tieleman, and Martin’s lawyer, Guillermo Cruz Rico of Toronto, say Martin’s human rights have also been breached by Mexican authorities. Both Canada and Mexico are signatories to a United Nations treaty on the rights of prisoners. Under that treaty, prisoners who have not been convicted are to be segregated from convicted prisoners.
For the past two years, Martin has shared a 2.7- by by 3.6-metre cell with nine other female prisoners, and one child.
Until recently, Canadian consular officials had wrongly assumed Martin was housed in her own cell, Tieleman said.

Regardless of guilt or innocence it is clear that Mexican authorities may in fact, if the above news article is true, violated international treaties signed by Mexico and Canada. If McTeague brought this up a year or so ago in the House of Commons then the government should have been following up throughout. It is important to note that the Canadian consular officials had ‘wrongly assumed’ Martin was housed in her own cell. This would indicate that her conditions were not actually being monitored at all. It is fair to say that the conservative government under Stephen Harper has taken a stand that the plight of Canadian citizens subject to foreign prison conditions and judicial proceedings is of little concern. This is disgraceful in itself. I’ve included in a series of links below the treaty clauses I have found in reply to unionist’s questions plus a comparison from previous governments on how a Canadian Consular service should work even with Canadian prisoners who have been found guilty and imprisoned in accordance with due process. Mexican jails are notorious and violate conditions set out under international treaties. So without considering whether Martin is guilty or innocent the Canadian government should have pursued this as a treaty violation and availed itself of every opportunity to press for her release pending trial and/or detention in accordance with international treaties to which Mexico is signatory. The Canadian government has clearly failed and should be held to account.

http://tinyurl.com/yqkonp Foreign Prisoner Support Service

This link describes the conditions surrounding the arrest of Randy Sachs who was arrested in Vietnam, convicted and jailed. The Canadian Embassy and Consul services visited him regularly, monitoring his conditions and well being.

http://tinyurl.com/228cgf

Body of Principles for the Protection of All Persons under Any Form of Detention or Imprisonment
Adopted by General Assembly resolution 43/173 of 9 December 1988

Principle 13
Any person shall, at the moment of arrest and at the commencement of detention or imprisonment, or promptly thereafter, be provided by the authority responsible for his arrest, detention or imprisonment, respectively with information on and an explanation of his rights and how to avail himself of such rights.

Principle 14
A person who does not adequately understand or speak the language used by the authorities responsible for his arrest, detention or imprisonment is entitled to receive promptly in a language which he understands the information referred to in principle 10, principle 11, paragraph 2, principle 12, paragraph 1, and principle 13 and to have the assistance, free of charge, if necessary, of an interpreter in connection with legal proceedings subsequent to his arrest.

Principle 16
2. If a detained or imprisoned person is a foreigner, he shall also be promptly informed of his right to communicate by appropriate means with a consular post or the diplomatic mission of the State of which he is a national or which is otherwise entitled to receive such communication in accordance with international law or with the representative of the competent international organization, if he is a refugee or is otherwise under the protection of an intergovernmental organization.

Principle 27
Non-compliance with these principles in obtaining evidence shall be taken into account in determining the admissibility of such evidence against a detained or imprisoned person.

http://tinyurl.com/26gzrz
International Covenant on Civil and
Political Rights

2. The Belgian Government considers that the provision of article 10, paragraph 2 (a), under which accused persons shall, save in exceptional circumstances, be segregated from convicted persons is to be interpreted in conformity with the principle, already embodied in the standard minimum rules for the treatment of prisoners [resolution (73) 5 of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe of 19 January 1973], that untried prisoners shall not be put in contact with convicted prisoners against their will [rules 7 (b) and 85 (1)]. If they so request, accused persons may be allowed to take part with convicted persons in certain communal activities.


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Fidel
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posted 12 March 2008 08:41 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If Ottawa wasn't hamstrung dealing with scandals, charges of corruption and a premature election call by the Libranos two years ago, they might have been able to do something for Canadians stashed away in Mexican prisons. The struggle for democracy continues.
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mary123
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posted 12 March 2008 08:52 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Amnesty International enters fray.

quote:
Amnesty International, the world's most vocal human rights advocate, has entered the fray on behalf of the imprisoned Brenda Martin, The Intelligencer has learned.

The Toronto office of the not-for-profit organization delivered a letter Tuesday to Maxime Bernier, Canada's minister of Foreign Affairs, urging "Canadian authorities to use all means at your disposal to vigorously ensure that Brenda Martin's right to due process is respected."

The letter was written by Kathy Price, who specializes in Mexican issues on behalf of Amnesty International Canada.

"We have received dozens of messages from concerned Canadians about the situation of Ms. Martin, urgently asking us to take up her case," Price wrote, adding her organization is "deeply concerned about widespread miscarriages of justice and violations of the right to due process within Mexico's criminal justice system."

Given the state of the Mexican justice system, Price asked Bernier to inform her organization of the "steps taken by Canadian officials to press for justice and human rights with regard to the treatment of Brenda Martin in Mexico."

While the organization is "not taking up the case directly" there are a number of concerns with the process in which justice is dolled out in the developing nation.

"We have a number of cases (of injustice) in Mexico, this is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the number of cases we know about," she said, adding the majority of cases involve Mexicans, not Canadians.

Amnesty's role in the Martin case is somewhat limited given two reasons, she explained: a lack of resources and the fact the matter is currently before a criminal court.

At the conclusion of Martin's trial, however, if there "is a miscarriage of justice, then of course we will get involved," she pledged.


source


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 12 March 2008 09:05 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you, mimeguy, for actually producing some hard information.

If in fact some treaty binds Mexico to segregate foreign prisoners (and I confess mimeguy that's still not clear to me from reading your material), then the Canadian government should be raked over the coals if it has not secured such segregation - or not even tried.

At least that potentially responds to my quest for concrete human rights violations.


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mary123
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posted 12 March 2008 09:15 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
mimeguy the links posted don't load, dead links for me.

[ 12 March 2008: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 12 March 2008 09:26 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Links work fine on my end - all 4 of them.
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mimeguy
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posted 12 March 2008 09:34 AM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry mary123, I checked them and they work for me and apparently unionist has accessed them as well. Not sure what to do as they are otherwise long links that need to be paired down. It also took quite a bit of refining key words and moving from one document to another just to find the ones I did.

unionist - It's true the links provide little concrete evidence of prisoner segregation. I can't find whether the Belgian comment from the link is a negotiating concern from the past or a comment on an existing, ratified treaty.


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unionist
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posted 12 March 2008 10:11 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by mimeguy:
unionist - It's true the links provide little concrete evidence of prisoner segregation. I can't find whether the Belgian comment from the link is a negotiating concern from the past or a comment on an existing, ratified treaty.

Appreciate your research.

All I'm saying is that one single tangible piece of proof that some real right of hers is being violated is worth far more than all the indignation over unknown facts.

In the case of the two women from Thunder Bay (see above), it was much ado about nothing. Canada has a duty to ensure its citizens are treated according to accepted norms of justice - not necessarily norms that we are used to - and international treaty obligations.

Demands by Canada to "release Brenda Martin", given the state of our knowledge of the case, would be akin to crying "Wolf".


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mary123
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posted 12 March 2008 11:24 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Former Prime Minister Paul Martin finally meets with jailed Brenda Martin ... no relation... we'll see what if anything develops from this!

[ 12 March 2008: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 12 March 2008 12:07 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In a telephone interview from prison, Martin said she cried when she saw the former prime minister, who met with her for about 45 minutes in an administration office at the Puente Grande Women’s Prison on the outskirts of Guadalajara.

Prisoners in Canada can't do that stuff, can they?


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Michelle
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posted 12 March 2008 04:18 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In federal prisons you can have private visits with lawyers, and "touch visits" (in other words, hanging out in the visiting yard) with your approved visitors if you're in a minimum or medium (or high-medium) security prison. High security prisons (like, say, Millhaven Institution just outside of Kingston) make you take your visits through glass, although I think you can see your lawyer in person without glass between you. (Not positive about that.)

It probably wouldn't be too difficult to get a former President of Mexico on your approved visitor list if you were in jail in Canada. And I'm willing to bet they'd extend the same courtesy to the President as they would legal counsel and let you see them in the same sort of rooms that you see your lawyer in.

[ 12 March 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 12 March 2008 04:37 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle - I wasn't talking about the visit. I was referring to the telephone interview with the media - and all the other live interviews they've done with her. That may happen in Canada, but not in my memory.
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Michelle
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posted 12 March 2008 06:12 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sure you can. You can call anyone you want. You have to call collect, of course. In federal prisons, I think you have to have an approved calling list, but that's only to ensure that you're not calling your victims, I think. You can apply to put anyone on your list, including reporters or anyone else.

And in provincial jails, there's no restriction at all, I don't think. You can call anyone you like, and they make the choice of whether or not to accept your collect call.

Prisoners are allowed to make phone calls. They're also allowed to write letters and receive letters (as long as it's only paper or cards - no stickers or stuff like that allowed).

[ 12 March 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 13 March 2008 09:50 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some more bizarre shenanigans seem to be going on with the Mexian judge in charge.

quote:
The Mexican criminal court judge who will decide the fate of a Canadian woman imprisoned without trial for two years has already written his judgment, even though Brenda Martin's lawyers have yet to file their defence.

Martin said the same Mexican justice official who charged her in February 2006 gave her unsolicited legal advice on Monday.

The official, Mexico's deputy attorney general, warned Martin that if she appeals a recent ruling that found her legal rights had not been breached, it will needlessly delay the resolution of her case by many months.

"How is Brenda supposed to have any chance of getting a fair trial in Mexico?" asked Deb Tieleman, Martin's childhood friend.

Tieleman said she confirmed Martin's version of the meeting through a call to Robin Dubeau, Canada's consul general in Mexico City.

Dubeau was present when Martin met with Jose Luis Santiago Vasconcelos on Monday and confirmed the judge in the criminal case has already written his ruling.

In an interview Wednesday, Martin said Santiago berated her and derided her Mexican-Canadian lawyer. All this was done in the presence of Dubeau, who did not ensure Martin had legal representation for the meeting.

Several calls and e-mails to the office of Foreign Affairs Minister Maxime Bernier were not returned Wednesday.

"I think he (Santiago) was trying to intimidate me," Martin said. "He told me I had no grounds for my amparo (constitutional challenge), and I said I didn't believe him. I said my lawyer wrote an amparo that proved my rights had been breached and I had done nothing wrong.

"They had no intention of ever granting my amparo," Martin said. "Who is this little man with all the power to keep me in prison? Why is he doing this to me? I did nothing wrong and they are killing me in here."


Mexican judge has ruling ready before defence presents case....Whaaaat??


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 13 March 2008 10:23 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Who is this little man with all the power to keep me in prison?" Righteous indignation at short, 'alien' people and their authority always strikes a chord.
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 13 March 2008 10:47 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
At least she's standing up and fighting for herself unlike some political Stepford wives out there.

I admire her fighting cocky spirit which is what is probably keeping her alive right now.

Your constant attempts to spin this story every which way is fascinating regardless. I'm learning so much from you. Thank you!


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 13 March 2008 11:25 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
"Who is this little man with all the power to keep me in prison?" Righteous indignation at short, 'alien' people and their authority always strikes a chord.

Emphasis added. How did you get "alien" out of what she said? At least she has a reason to be upset. You're just pulling grievances out of your butt here. BTW, I can think of any number of circumstances where I might refer to someone as a "little man" where it wouldn't have anything to do with his physical stature.

[ 13 March 2008: Message edited by: pogge ]


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 13 March 2008 11:29 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 13 March 2008 11:37 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My cue is the emphasis on the word Mexican both in the story and in babblers' presentation of it; as for Brenda Martin's own statements on record, they are at the very least supercilious of national' authority in the case. But s always, a completely one-sided picture of the facts in the media treatment of the case provides justification for flaming the foreign (is that better?) people and institutions who would dare hold Brenda Martin accountable, despite well-fanned racist furore.
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
pookie
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posted 13 March 2008 01:50 PM      Profile for pookie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh dear. Brenda Martin is being "supercilious" of the national authority of Mexico. Why not put her before a firing squad and be done with it?
From: there's no "there" there | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 13 March 2008 06:38 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry to spoil your comic effect but here is something about Canadian nationals who are - and who are not prime suspects of a fraud scam either - and don't expect CTV or the Harper gov't to lift a little finger to help them:
Press Release
quote:
Canadians from Gaza call for immediate reversal of governmental silence
Monday, March 12th, 2008

Canada's government has failed to respond to the ongoing crisis in the Gaza Strip.

Today, Montreal families recently visiting relatives in Gaza remain trapped under the Israeli bombardment, having received no assistance from Canadian consulate authorities in the Middle East or in Ottawa.

One Palestinian family from Montreal -- including two Canadian-born children -- has been stuck in Gaza since the recent escalation of Israeli violence against the Palestinian people.

In another case, a Palestinian from Montreal -- father of three -- escaped Gaza weeks ago, after Palestinians briefly breached the Egypt-Gaza border. A dangerous voyage from Gaza through the Egyptian desert made it impossible for the entire Canadian family, including small children, to
travel from Gaza back to Canada.(...)



From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 13 March 2008 06:58 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have no idea what your point is supposed to be but here's a Montreal Gazette story that I suspect covers some of the same territory as that press release.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 13 March 2008 08:07 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well if you bother comparing the treatment of both situations by our governement and the media, you will be struck by how differently the blame is attributed. The Gazette story actually suggests that it is the Palestinians and not Israel that is holding the Aboudraz children captive:
quote:
...the consulate is trying to negotiate with Palestinian officials to help Canadians in Gaza...

We are not treated either with government officials taking a strong stand against these children (not suspected criminals, children) being kept captive under fire. No one is rushing to their help as for Brenda Martin. Why? Because we are supporting Israel's horrible war on Palestinians - without the issue being even raised - let alone decided in the House of Commons.
Still don't see the point?

[ 13 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 13 March 2008 08:18 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

Prisoners in Canada can't do that stuff, can they?


I'd weep too if I was greeted by our former head stoogecrat after two years in a Mexican gulag.

[ 13 March 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 13 March 2008 08:26 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:

I'd weep too if I was greeted by our former head stoogecrat after two years in a Mexican gulag.



From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 14 March 2008 04:18 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Still don't see the point?

No, I still don't see your point. The plight of these Canadians stranded in Gaza doesn't alter the fact that Brenda Martin has been held for two years without trial. The fact that she's a suspect in a crime doesn't change the fact that she's entitled to certain rights and our government should be standing up for her even as it should be standing up for all Canadians whose rights are abused in other countries.

And I can't help but notice that you've presented these new cases not in a new thread and as an issue that concerns you and that you want to inform us about, but as an issue that somehow trumps the subject of this thread as if it makes the rest of us here guilty of something. So it actually doesn't look like you care about either issue, it looks like you want to prove your own superiority somehow.

So what was your point again?


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 14 March 2008 04:44 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:

Brenda Martin has been held for two years without trial.

Are you sure she or her lawyers have been demanding a speedy trial? I haven't actually heard that from them directly, despite interviews I've seen or read with both. Have you? There have obviously been judicial proceedings, particularly on the constitutional issue, and lengthy ruling(s). Could that have caused the delay?

Anyway, given that we hold accused in Canada for similar or longer periods under some circumstances (e.g. Mississauga 18), isn't it important to understand whether or not the accused is actually asking for a quick trial or not?

quote:
The fact that she's a suspect in a crime doesn't change the fact that she's entitled to certain rights and our government should be standing up for her even as it should be standing up for all Canadians whose rights are abused in other countries.

I've asked this before, but I'll ask again. Which specific rights should the government be requesting in her case?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 14 March 2008 05:00 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The bottom line is, unionist, that Amnesty Internationale's Mexican headquarters say that Mexico regularly imprisons people for years with no charges. The Mexican Justice system is a sham. Not just for Brenda Martin, but for thousands of others held indefinitely with no charges.

What I do not understand is why you are defending the Mexican justice system here, in this case. I would have thought you would be appalled at how that Justice system works. I know I am.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 14 March 2008 05:12 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:

What I do not understand is why you are defending the Mexican justice system here, in this case. I would have thought you would be appalled at how that Justice system works. I know I am.

I am not defending it. I am appalled at how many justice systems work - including our own.

I am questioning what specific abuse in this specific case we are supposed to be indignant about?

As opposed to the other dozen Canadians being held in Mexican prisons, for example.

The proven fact that Mexico has been found guilty of judicial excesses, torture, and other sins, has nothing whatsoever to do with Brenda Martin - unless and until there is even an allegation that one of these has been inflicted on her.

So far, all I've heard is:

1. Lengthy imprisonment - but read my questions above - as far as I know, she may have been able to have a trial long ago, but she may have gotten (or wanted) lousy legal advice about constitutional challenges.

2. Lack of a translator - maybe that's so, but that was long ago, and the court has found that it doesn't negate the charges against her.

3. Lack of segregation - I've seen no evidence, yet, that some specific treaty obligation exists in this regard. Does Canada segregate foreign citizens in its prison system - in particular permanent residents (which Brenda Martin obviously was, for years, before being arrested)?

My concerns are with this specific particular individual case.

[ 14 March 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 14 March 2008 05:38 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
3. Lack of segregation - I've seen no evidence, yet, that some specific treaty obligation exists in this regard. Does Canada segregate foreign citizens in its prison system...

From one of the articles linked above:

quote:
During the next 22 months, Brenda reports she has been living in a three-metre by four-metre cell with 11 other women, some of whom are convicted murderers and drug dealers. This is in direct contravention of international human rights treaties to which both Canada and Mexico have agreed to.

As someone who was accused but hadn't been found guilty, she should have been segregated from convicts who were actually serving sentences.

For someone who has supposedly followed the case so closely you don't seem to understand the issues or to take into account information and answers that have already been supplied to you. Your post prior to the one I've quoted asks questions as if our previous exchange never took place. I'm not going back over some of the same territory again. If you don't think this issue is worth paying attention to, you can always go read another thread.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 14 March 2008 05:44 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:
For someone who has supposedly followed the case so closely you don't seem to understand the issues or to take into account information and answers that have already been supplied to you. Your post prior to the one I've quoted asks questions as if our previous exchange never took place.

Well, mimeguy provided some source material, which you didn't bother to do or couldn't find. Having done so, he said (you may have missed his post):

quote:
unionist - It's true the links provide little concrete evidence of prisoner segregation. I can't find whether the Belgian comment from the link is a negotiating concern from the past or a comment on an existing, ratified treaty.

Also, I'm not aware that Brenda Martin has actually requested and been denied segregation (whether it's an obligation or not). Are you?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 14 March 2008 06:51 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
Well, mimeguy provided some source material, which you didn't bother to do or couldn't find.

The implication here is that if someone else has provided you with sources, you get to discuss the issue with me as if that information was never provided, as if an exchange between you and I occurs outside of the context of the rest of the thread. I think that's silly. I think it shows bad faith on your part.

quote:
Also, I'm not aware that Brenda Martin has actually requested and been denied segregation...

So even though the press has reported that denying segregation is in violation of Mexico's treaty obligations, you're under the impression that Martin has to specifically request it? Which form would that be? Should it be submitted in duplicate? Triplicate?

Can you imagine Martin suggesting that even though she has the right to be segregated from them that she'd rather be kept in a tiny cell with convicted murderers? Are you daft?

[ 14 March 2008: Message edited by: pogge ]


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 14 March 2008 07:33 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
Anyone know what the real story is here?

All I caught on the radio today was that after 10 months as a chef, she was given $20,000 in "severance pay".


$20K is a fairly decent payoff for ten months work. But I don't think it implicates her in criminal activities.

What you seem to be encouraging us to believe here, unionist, is that:

  • we must assume Brenda's guilt, because the Mexican justice system is world-renowned for its fairness apparently
  • the benevolent Mexican justice system has treated her fairly during her two years spent in a gulag(and apparently she's suicidal as a result)
  • there exists damning evidence proving Brenda's guilt
  • and that everything will be made right now that our former PM is greasing some palms in Mexico City

What's the evidence against Brenda, btw ?

[ 14 March 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 14 March 2008 07:41 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fidel, kindly send me a sample of what you're smoking. It'll help pass a snowbound weekend here.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 14 March 2008 07:49 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:
The implication here is that if someone else has provided you with sources, you get to discuss the issue with me as if that information was never provided, as if an exchange between you and I occurs outside of the context of the rest of the thread. I think that's silly. I think it shows bad faith on your part.

Oh, it's much worse than bad faith. It shows that I'm a criminal rogue, possibly a human rights violator, perhaps a war criminal.

Now that you have my confession, did you happen to find a source (which mimeguy, who doesn't get quite as upset as you do, admitted he couldn't specifically find yet) for your allegation that there is some treaty obligation regarding segregation?


quote:
So even though the press has reported that denying segregation is in violation of Mexico's treaty obligations, you're under the impression that Martin has to specifically request it?

Well, there's certainly something fishy here:

quote:
Until recently, Canadian consular officials had wrongly assumed Martin was housed in her own cell, Tieleman said.

Huh!!????? So "until recently", no one had been in contact with Brenda Martin - for two years?????? That's a pretty new angle on the story, isn't it? Or did they forget to talk to her about her conditions???

Anyway, if the "press" (which you take as gospel) is correct, then obviously no one asked for a segregated cell "until recently", because they didn't know she already had one.

Hopefully, now that the request has been made, she will be granted better conditions - whether there is a treaty obligation in that regard or not.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 14 March 2008 07:54 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
What's the evidence against Brenda, btw ?

I dunno - ask her lawyer, who said there was "no STRONG evidence" against her, before the CBC expunged that quote from its news report. He seems to know what the evidence is, but hasn't made it public.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 14 March 2008 07:56 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What else are we supposed to infer from the "$20 thousand dollar payoff" ?

What was she going to do with the money, startup a restaurant as a cover for organized crime? Would she apply for a job as a food critic working for the CIA in Mexico City? Ottawa? We need help filling in the missing pieces of the puzzle, because the Mexicans don't seem to be coughing up the goods on Brenda?

Maybe the CLC could find something out for us with all those union activists imprisoned down there for the crime of fighting for free labour markets?


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 14 March 2008 08:12 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

I dunno - ask her lawyer, who said there was "no STRONG evidence" against her, before the CBC expunged that quote from its news report. He seems to know what the evidence is, but hasn't made it public.


Two years on weak evidence is a long time in a Mexican gulag, don't you think ?

There have been Nazi and other war criminals lived out the rest of their natural lives in Britain, Canada and U.S. under their real names, collected Canadian and U.S. pensions and never served a day. And they were never so much as questioned or harassed by the RCMP or FBI.

I think Brenda Martin should come home. And former PM PM should pull some strings with the Mexicans he once wined and dined with as a Canadian official for free trade and other phony-baloney dealings this northern colony has had with that other one.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 14 March 2008 11:38 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
What was she going to do with the money, startup a restaurant as a cover for organized crime?

Well, Fidel, since her lawyers aren't talking, we rely on reports here and there:

quote:
Martin worked as a chef for a man named Alyn Richard Waage. Waage, who is from Alberta, and was later convicted in the U.S. of being the mastermind behind an Internet-based investment fraud scheme that netted almost $60 million. He fired Martin (at the request of his mother) and gave her a severance package, which Martin used to start a catering business. The federales claim Martin was laundering money. Waage, says Martin did nothing for him other than prepare his meals

Martin was so oblivious to her employers internet scam she actually invested almost half of her severance package in it.


quote:
I think Brenda Martin should come home.

Uhh, ok, but she was living (voluntarily) in Mexico for at least six (6) years prior to her arrest - so where is "home"? Mexico? Or frozen Puerto Rico of the North?

[ 14 March 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 14 March 2008 02:27 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There have been a few old line party senators(nice "work" if you can get it) and uber-wealthy Canadian citizens live in the Bahamas, Florida, and California 181 days out of the year to avoid paying Canadian taxes. Should we kick them out of the country too?

[ 14 March 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 14 March 2008 02:32 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
There have been a few old line party senators(nice "work" if you can get it) and uber-wealthy Canadian citizens live in the Bahamas, Florida, and California 181 days out of the year to avoid paying Canadian taxes. Should we kick them out of the country too?

No. But if they're arrested down there for white collar crime, we should provide them with consular visits and wish them well defending themselves in Bahamian court. Not Florida - they still have the death penalty I think - which by the way, Mexico abolished in 1929.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 14 March 2008 02:35 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
from RealDealWithDonMacNeil blogspot:

quote:
The difference is that neither the U.S. nor Canada thinks she did anything they could charge her for and the Mexican charges related only to her alleged laundering of ill gotten gains in Mexico.

Still, the United States has found a way to get a Canadian citizen arrested in Mexico extradited to California.

It should be just as easy for the Canadian government to get Brenda Martin out of Guadalajara.

It might be easy, but the Canadian government has shown little interest in helping Canadians arrested in foreign countries



From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 14 March 2008 06:11 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nice website Fidel ... more goodies from it.

quote:
Helena Guergis, Canada’s secretary of state for foreign affairs, and an incredible oracle of the obvious, told CTV of the Martin case "it's a foreign country and she's in a foreign judicial system."

The Parliamentary Paris Hilton went on to say "Canada does not have any control over the government of Mexico or their judicial process. Any suggestion that a politician can influence a judge's decision is completely inappropriate."


Wow we actually pay these mental pygmies the big bucks eh?

quote:
The fact of the matter is that Canada does have options. A formal diplomatic note of protest to the Mexican government, outlining that Brenda Martin's rights have been abused under the international treaty, signed by both countries, would likely be enough to have Martin on the first plane back to Canada.

quote:
How a government can claim they love Canada, but hate Canadians is beyond me.

And they hate Canadians with a petty, vindictive passion. Plus they hate us for our freedoms too!


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
sawbuck
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posted 15 March 2008 10:17 PM      Profile for sawbuck   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
About Brenda Martin in a Mexican jail. It is a bad place to be. To get a statement from Alyn Waage stating that she was not involved, she may have not been, but he is a fraud artist and his word cannot be totally believed. His word can work against her case. A few years ago I remember seeing a progam on W5 about the corrupt Mexican justice system, where foreigners were arrested for small or non-existant crimes, put in jail and they would have to spend thousands of dollars to get out. This was done to put money into the Mexican justice system. Since Waages crime involved much money, I would not be surprised if the Mexican justice system is fishing for as much cash as it can get. When Waage is finish his sentence in the US jail, he should be shipped to Mexico to serve another term in their jail. I have no sympathy for him at all.
From: Edmonton | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 16 March 2008 01:39 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Update!!!!
Hosanna in the highest ... our Conservative New Government politicians have risen from the dead to help free Brenda Martin. Maybe.

quote:
Foreign Affairs Minister Maxime Bernier will meet with his Mexican counterpart Monday in Washington to try find a resolution to the high-profile case of imprisoned Canadian Brenda Martin.

Supporters of the emaciated and suicidal former resident of Trenton, Ont., say there is a quick and easy solution to free her from the Guadalajara prison where she has languished without trial for more than two years.

"Under the Mexican constitution, the executive council (of Mexico's cabinet) has the power to expel any foreigner who has become inconvenient for Mexico," Martin's Toronto lawyer, Guillermo Cruz Rico said Sunday....

Martin has certainly become inconvenient for both Mexico and the Conservative government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper. The scene of a clearly mentally ill Martin sobbing uncontrollably while pleading for her life have been played and replayed in the media for weeks. Hundreds of angry Canadians have contacted the government and their MPs demanding her release and websites are springing up calling for a boycott of Mexican tourism and trade.


Bowing to public pressure, the government quietly removed junior minister Helena Guergis from Martin's file last week. Bernier responded immediately, calling Patricia Espinosa, Mexico's foreign affairs minister, and following that up with a diplomatic note.


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 16 March 2008 01:52 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It HAD to be a woman's fault, natch...
ETA: BTW, "Mary123," pygmies are some of the kindest people on this planet, so you may want to dispense using a racist cliché to describe people who don't jump at the call of a white-collar crime defense lawyer.

[ 16 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 16 March 2008 06:19 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tomorrow's da day!!!!

quote:
National media attention has thrown Martin's case into the spotlight and the Canadian government reacted to public scrutiny last week by issuing a diplomatic note of protest to Mexico. The note was issued days after Martin learned her constitutional challenge -- which stated her human rights had been violated -- was rejected by the Mexican courts.

Power of the people against the mental pygmies!!!

p.s. Martin thanks for your advice, I'll most certainly take it into consideration. Thank you! I
I stole the term from a Molly Ivins article. Love Molly Ivins.

The Harper Conservative New Government Most certainly Qualify as Mental Pygmies ....Here's an old Molly Ivins article using the term "mental pygmies"

[ 16 March 2008: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
laine lowe
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posted 16 March 2008 08:54 PM      Profile for laine lowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I love Molly Ivins too but it's unfortunate she chose to use "pygmies" as a synonym for short, very similar to calling the same group of neo-con brain trust "mental midgets". Both are offensive terms, one being derisive of an indigenous group of people in Africa (who are struggling to survive like many other indigenous groups) and the other insulting to little people.

I certainly hope the pressure results in an immediate trial for Brenda Martin. From what I understand, even if she were found guilty, her two years in jail would count as time served. I can't imagine why they would want to sentence her for any longer given that Alyn Richard Waage's own son pleaded to a deal for four years and I imagine he was intricately involved in the scheme that his father is serving 10 years for.

ETA: Statement from the Mexican Embassy in Canada:

Statement on the Brenda Martin Case

[ 17 March 2008: Message edited by: laine lowe ]


From: north of 50 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 17 March 2008 04:23 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Finally, some answers to the questions I've been asking, from the Mexican embassy - in particular, why the lengthy delay - from the statement linked by kropotkin:

quote:
- At the time of her arrest, Mrs. Brenda Martin was illegally in the country, without a work visa. The Mexican government has never filed any charge whatsoever in that regard.

She appears to have been there at least 6 years before her arrest, running a catering business after Waage "fired" her.

quote:
- When INTERPOL, along with the Mexican government, decided to arrest the band of defrauders, Brenda Martin was included in the group. ...

- The four lawyers Brenda Martin retained during the past two years never separated her case from the other individuals standing accused of fraud, having had the legal ability to do so. In not doing so, she remained linked to them and included in the global file comprising 25,000 pages.

- Brenda Martin’s current lawyer filed an amparo alleging that her constitutional rights had been violated. After five months of review, the Constitutional Review Tribunal ruled that there had been no breach of the Constitution in her proceedings. While the Tribunal reviewed the case, the previous legal proceedings were stayed....

The lengthy resolution of the case stems from the complexity of integrating a file of international scope, involving acts in various countries and languages. The delay in Brenda Martin’s case is due to the fact that her defence lawyers never separated this issue from the larger case.


Just as I suspected. It's nice to have some confirmation. So far, all we've heard is from her friend Tielman and her lawyers. This also explains why her lawyers, quoted frequently and publicly in the Canadian media, have never demanded a speedy trial.

quote:
The Mexican system is written rather than oral, and as in Canada there is a presumption of innocence until proven guilty. The judicial process is governed by Articles 14 and 16 of the Constitution.

Gee, whaddya know. They must just be liars, eh?

I think it is really incredible that people would call for the release of an accused fraud artist based on... based on not liking the Mexican judicial system???


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 17 March 2008 04:32 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I also supected so much (and winced at the racist comments used to paint the people who cut short the scam shre was involved in). I suspect that Ms. Martin is being used by her co-accused and their lawyers - via sensationalist journalists and naive politicians - to intimidate the Mexican judiciary ("Who is this little man(...)?") away from due process in this collective case against them.

[ 17 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 17 March 2008 06:28 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
- Brenda Martin’s current lawyer filed an amparo alleging that her constitutional rights had been violated. After five months of review, the Constitutional Review Tribunal ruled that there had been no breach of the Constitution in her proceedings. While the Tribunal reviewed the case, the previous legal proceedings were stayed.

Well, there you go. No violation of her rights because the Ambassador said so. he must be right because,after all, he's an Ambassador.

Never mind facts such as not having an interpreter or signing a statement in a language she couldn't understand or not having a lawyer present,her rights couldn't have been violated because "Mexico is a democracy".

If you want your "rights" respected by Mexican authorities,try cash - works like a charm. The Mexicans are on the case to get next to the money from the scam-they want a cut.

Get Brenda out of Mexico now! There is no law against poor judgement and that is all Brenda is guilty of.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 17 March 2008 06:37 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jester:
Never mind facts such as not having an interpreter or signing a statement in a language she couldn't understand or not having a lawyer present,her rights couldn't have been violated because "Mexico is a democracy".

Sorry, where did you read that she signed a statement in a language she couldn't understand?

quote:
Get Brenda out of Mexico now! There is no law against poor judgement and that is all Brenda is guilty of.

I like your system of justice much better than the Mexican one. No need for any time-consuming details like evidence.


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jester
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posted 17 March 2008 07:08 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

I like your system of justice much better than the Mexican one. No need for any time-consuming details like evidence.


Absolutely correct. No need. Just be sure you have a firm deal before handing over any funds to yourMexican lawyer to split with the cops and the court or they will discover "complications" and want more loot.

Brenda Martin is in jail because her persecutors think they can use her to squeeze some loot out of somebody and they don't care who.

No need for any sanctimonious sermons about constitutions and democracy either,thats for Canadian consumption.


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jester
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posted 17 March 2008 07:44 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sorry, where did you read that she signed a statement in a language she couldn't understand?


Here ya go:

quote:
The Mexican criminal court judge who is to decide the fate of the Canadian woman imprisoned without trial for two years has already written the judgment -- even though her lawyers have yet to file their defence -- says a childhood friend of prisoner Brenda Martin.

Meanwhile, Mexico's deputy attorney general met with and apparently berated the 51-year-old Ms. Martin, warning her that appealing a ruling that her rights had not been violated by the country's justice system would only add months to the resolution of her case.


web page
quote:
On Monday, Ms. Martin met with the deputy attorney-general for Mexico — one Jose Luis Santiago Vasconcelos — who told her the only quick route out of the jail cell she has been sharing with up to eight convicted felons had been turned down. This constitutional challenge, or amparo, was based on Ms. Martin’s contention she was questioned in Spanish without the benefit of an interpreter or a lawyer and signed a document, which the Mexicans say is an admission of guilt, without understanding what it contained
web page
quote:
The site turns the spotlight on a country where the police are widely viewed as corrupt, where bribes are demanded from tourists for minor or none existent traffic infractions, and where - according to the government of Canada's travel advisory to Mexico - armed robbery, purse snatching and pick-pocketing occur frequently.

The government of Canada's travel advisory also reads in bold letters, "Under Mexican law, you are considered guilty until proven innocent


And here's a good one (emphasis mine)

quote:
Ms. Martin, 51, is a victim of a medieval judicial system, bureaucratic indifference and political lethargy. She has been in jail awaiting trial for two years and two months in Guadalajara -- for the first 18 months without any official contact from anyone at Canada's consulate in the city.

Her "crime" was that she worked as a chef for a convicted fraudster, Alyn Waage, who bilked investors worldwide out of about $60-million.He bribed his way out of Mexico and is currently serving a 10-year sentence in an American prison. While in Waage's employ, Ms. Martin argued with her former boss and was given a one-year severance package of $28,000. After re-investing this sum, she was charged by the Mexican authorities with money-laundering and being part of a criminal conspiracy -- even though Waage has provided a sworn affidavit saying she is innocent. She was not provided with an interpreter during questioning, even though she does not speak Spanish. Her lawyers say there is no evidence of any wrong-doing.


web page

You're welcome.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 17 March 2008 07:50 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
Steve is on the case!
quote:
OTTAWA -- Prime Minister Stephen Harper raised the case of imprisoned Canadian Brenda Martin with Mexican President Felipe Calderon Monday, government sources said.

Although the Prime Minister's Office would not provide details of the phone conversation between Mr. Harper and Mr. Calderon, which took place Monday morning, Mr. Harper is expected to send Secretary of State for Multiculturalism Jason Kenney to visit Ms. Martin in a Guadalajara prison Tuesday to check on her health and reassure her that the government is concerned about her well-being.

"It's a full court press," said one source.


web page

About time.

Since Brenda Martin is in Mexico with an expired visa, under Mexican law, she can simply be deported to Canada as an undesirable foreigner.


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unionist
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posted 17 March 2008 07:51 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks jester. I guess that settles it. She's innocent!
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jester
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posted 17 March 2008 07:55 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
Who cares. Whether or not she is innocent,the time she has spent in a Mexican prison is more than any sentence she would have received under Canadian law.

You gotta get out of the house more often. There is no such thing as innocent in Mexico - you can either pay up or remain guilty.


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martin dufresne
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posted 17 March 2008 07:55 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So all you are going on is a National Post hack's report of Ms. Martin's "contention" that she "did not understand" what she was signing? After living and working in Mexico for at least six years?!
Methinks you are an easy mark for con artists, jester. Best you remain anonymous.

[ 17 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
laine lowe
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posted 17 March 2008 08:22 PM      Profile for laine lowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's funny how in 2007, the problem with her detention was that the Mexican judicial system was incompetent. Suddenly in 2008, the case becomes one of the Mexican judicial system being corrupt and Brenda Martin's human rights violations. We have never heard from the media on what grounds her "amparo" (court challenge) was rejected but it does seem that in earlier reports, Brenda Martin was provided with a translator as well as an attorney when the first one she hired proved useless for the first 6 months of her arrest.

[/quote]Canadian Languishes in Jail

quote:
In August 2006, Martin was given a public defender and a translator by the Mexican government. At a hearing that month, Martin said she told the court that Waage was prepared to swear an affidavit in which he would say she had nothing to do with the scheme and had no knowledge of it. Waage swore the affadavit before a prison notary, a copy of which has been obtained by The Journal. It was translated into Spanish and entered by Martin's lawyer into court in Guadalajara.

Martin said more than a dozen other people had stated in their formal statements to Mexican police that she had only been Waage's chef.

But Martin said she was told Waage's sworn affidavit wasn't enough, and the Mexican court required Waage to make his statement before a judge in North Carolina based on a series of written questions from a Mexican judge.

"That was supposed to go to the minister of the interior in Mexico City, then to the Mexican embassy in Washington and then to a federal judge in North Carolina," Martin said. "I was told in August all of this was would be done expediently."

But by October, Martin had heard nothing. She requested another hearing, which was held Oct. 6.

"I was told in writing that the papers were in the hands of the federal American court in mid-September and all we were waiting for was a date for Alyn to testify before the American judge."

In early November, Martin's lawyer asked the Mexican court what had happened to the documents.

"Three days later a Mexican court official and a translator came to see me and they said: 'Oops, there was an error,' and the papers were sent back from the United States because they had not been translated into English."

On Dec. 13, Martin had another hearing, this time before a judge, who told her he wanted the translated documents by Dec. 19 and he would personally see they were dealt with expeditiously.

But last week, a spokesman for the U.S. Department of Justice in North Carolina said they had no knowledge of any such request from the Mexican government.



From: north of 50 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 17 March 2008 08:22 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
So all you are going on is a National Post hack's report of Ms. Martin's "contention" that she "did not understand" what she was signing? After living and working in Mexico for at least six years?!
Methinks you are an easy mark for con artists, jester. Best you remain anonymous.

[ 17 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


Yeah,the National Pest and Brenda Martin's Canadian-based Mexican lawyer who was a constitutional law professor in Mexico.

Methinks you are still an easy mark for ill-informed group-think that reinforces stereotypical perceptions.

Is there any progressive constituency that you won't shamelessly suck up to? The National Pest as any media must be judged on its merit,not on unsupported lefty antipathy.

Martin,I understand that its partly beyond your control but try not to be such a crawler. You canbe accepted for yourself.

There are many expats in Mexico who can't understand a word of Spanish its fairly typical- especially among older folk. From all evidence,Brenda isn't too sophisticated,just a trusting woman caught up in events.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 17 March 2008 08:27 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From laine's link:

quote:
In early November, Martin's lawyer asked the Mexican court what had happened to the documents.

"Three days later a Mexican court official and a translator came to see me and they said: 'Oops, there was an error,' and the papers were sent back from the United States because they had not been translated into English."

On Dec. 13, Martin had another hearing, this time before a judge, who told her he wanted the translated documents by Dec. 19 and he would personally see they were dealt with expeditiously.

But last week, a spokesman for the U.S. Department of Justice in North Carolina said they had no knowledge of any such request from the Mexican government.


So, it was the U.S. authorities who wouldn't provide translation!

You know, this story is so straightforward, I'm shocked she wasn't released ages ago, with a little severance package for her troubles.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
laine lowe
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posted 17 March 2008 08:30 PM      Profile for laine lowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Brenda Martin may very well be a trusting woman caught up in events but I still think the human rights violation claims made by her lawyer were a bit of a stretch. The court has ruled on them and instead of seeking an appeal, her lawyer and the Canadian consulate should place their efforts in getting her a hearing a.s.a.p. Get the bank records and proper paper work for Waage's testimony in order (although I'm guessing the bank evidence will be stronger than the word of a convicted con man).
From: north of 50 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 17 March 2008 08:43 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by laine lowe:
Brenda Martin may very well be a trusting woman caught up in events but I still think the human rights violation claims made by her lawyer were a bit of a stretch. The court has ruled on them and instead of seeking an appeal, her lawyer and the Canadian consulate should place their efforts in getting her a hearing a.s.a.p. Get the bank records and proper paper work for Waage's testimony in order (although I'm guessing the bank evidence will be stronger than the word of a convicted con man).

lain, I'm guessing you don't know anything of Mexican "justice". Don't conflate your Canadian perception of justice with the Mexican variety.

And especially,don't forget that the "convicted con man" bribed his way out of the Mexican "justice system.

Canada's own traveller's update warns that in Mexico, you are guilty until proven innocent.

In Mexican law, Brenda's only crime is that she didn't have the resources to bribe her way out like her former boss did.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 17 March 2008 08:54 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jester:
Canada's own traveller's update warns that in Mexico, you are guilty until proven innocent.

Gee, the whites explaining the legal system of the browns. That's pretty definitive, thanks for that. I can't believe I would have listened to what the Mexican ambassador had to say and his humorous self-serving references to the Mexican constitution.

quote:
In Mexican law, Brenda's only crime is that she didn't have the resources to bribe her way out like her former boss did.

Well, then she should be released! She must be innocent! Aren't we repeating ourselves here? By the way, have you contacted her lawyers with your brilliant analysis of the Mexican legal and judicial system?


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Fidel
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posted 17 March 2008 09:14 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
Gee, the whites explaining the legal system of the browns. That's pretty definitive, thanks for that.

It's freaky-deaky, but I did a google search by aiming the word Mexico at SOAW.org and got a bunch of Google redirections to any site but. I'm thinkin' Maico must not be a real great country for women's rights let alone Brenda's.


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jrose
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posted 17 March 2008 09:36 PM      Profile for jrose     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Closing for length.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged

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