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Author Topic: Bob Rae factor in Ontario
tzarina
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posted 26 June 2007 05:42 AM      Profile for tzarina     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
NDP is a victim of his premiership of the province. Teachers, nurses, social workers etc. got into a habit of voting liberal in the 1990.

Now Bob Rae is a star lib candidate. He is coming to my city (Sarnia) on 28th of June. The lunch tickets are $50. Do you think he is worth it? Do you think he will do to the liberal party what ha has done to the NDP?


From: Sarnia | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 26 June 2007 05:56 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by tzarina:
Do you think he will do to the liberal party what ha has done to the NDP?

I hope so.


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 26 June 2007 06:09 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And $50 is pretty cheap for a Liberal dinner with a big name.
From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
tzarina
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posted 26 June 2007 06:30 AM      Profile for tzarina     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps they worried that people will not show up, so they priced a little on the low side. They will probably get 400 people and will make some 10 thou.
Rae has some appeal in Sarnia. Before he was premier he came to Sarnia at the time of Dow Chemical strike and walked with workers.

From: Sarnia | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
mimeguy
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posted 26 June 2007 06:36 AM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bob Rae won't get close to the votes that Bill Graham received. That means he is in for a tough battle in Toronto Centre. I think he obviously chose the safest Toronto riding he could in order to weather the anti-Rae sentiments.

To be fair though, were the NDP really a victim of his leadership? Did he really have that much influence over people like Ruth Grier, Floyd Laughren (I think I'm spelling his name wrong), Howard Hampton and the rest? Or did the NDP caucus as a whole drop the ball?


From: Ontario | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
tostig
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posted 26 June 2007 06:43 AM      Profile for tostig     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by tzarina:
...Do you think he is worth it?

$50 is cheap. I remember receiving an invitation to a Paul Martin fundraising supper at $500. We were scratching our heads on why we received the invitation since I had never donated to the Liberals before nor are Liberal party members.

I think the Liberals are rebuilding their supply-base since corporations are no longer allowed to donate.

quote:
Originally posted by tzarina:
...Do you think he will do to the liberal party what ha has done to the NDP?

That's a myth. Bob Rae didn't do {whatever} to the NDP. The Unions did. Rae faced challenging economic situations in which he had to deal with deficit cuts without having to implement layoffs (it was a recession remember?). The Unions didn't like his plan but in the end, the Unions chose layoffs and eight years of war under Mike Harris's Common Sense Revolution instead. Harris, btw, inherited an economic boom started during Bob Rae's Ontario.

And finally, Rae does acknowledges his mistakes. Who else do you know is up to that level? (and don't tell us nobody else has made any mistakes).

[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: tostig ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 26 June 2007 06:53 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's quite amusing how all these Liberals suddenly pop out of the woodwork telling us what a "bum rap" Bob Rae got as Premier of Ontario and how he "did the best he could under the circumstances".

Where was this charitable attitude towards Bob Rae from the Liberals in the 1995 election when they ran a virulently negative campaign of hate against him under their brain-dead leader Lyn McLeod the gay-basher.

If the Liberals think Bob rae was such a great Premier of Ontario, why did they run any candidates against him in 1995???


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 26 June 2007 06:55 AM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"NDP is a victim of his premiership of the province."

This is NDP revisionism pure and simple. Every poll that I recall during his premiership showed Bob Rae being personally far more popular than the NDP.


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 26 June 2007 07:14 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's not really true. As I recall in the dying days of the Rae government, polls on vote intention were typically Liberals 45-50%, Tories 25-30%, NDP 20% or so.

When people were asked about best person for Premier, Rae would get an anemic 20% or so, but Lyn McLeod would tumble to the high teens (I wonder why?) and Harris was more or less tied with Rae in the low 20s. Rae didn't actually poll any better than the NDP, but he looked better in relative terms because the opposition leaders had even lower ratings than he did.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
tostig
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posted 26 June 2007 07:55 AM      Profile for tostig     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
It's quite amusing how all these Liberals suddenly pop out...

Where is your proof in that and what proof do you have the I am a Liberal? (Assuming you are commenting about my post).

[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: tostig ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 26 June 2007 08:05 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stock has no trouble speaking for himself.

But I took it as a general reference. We heard tons of it during the leadership race. It was amusing.

BTW, a similar thing goes on at a local level in Central Nova, where Elizabeth May is running in the Liberal slot as well as for the Greens.

Alexis MacDonald was a good candidate for the NDP against Peter MacKay. But now that she's gone those local Libs who are promoting May have vastly elevated Alexis' status.

And of course the NDP can't do much without her.

[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: KenS ]


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
tostig
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posted 26 June 2007 08:19 AM      Profile for tostig     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by KenS:
Stock has no trouble speaking for himself....

It's also and indication how Reformers like to jump to conclusions when they don't study the details.

That's why I included in my post "nor are Liberal party members."


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Pogo
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posted 26 June 2007 10:04 AM      Profile for Pogo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And you heard about the Sarnia event from a friend of a friend of a friend of a Liberal?

[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: Pogo ]


From: Richmond BC | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 26 June 2007 10:16 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
About 3 weeks ago, Bob Rae spoke in Kincardine. Gees, I wanted to go but alas, I was away for the weekend, fighting for public education, since I am a progressive trustee.
Anyways, when I get home there is a message on my phone machine asking me if I wanted to attend Bob's speaking engagement. A personal invite but the nice female voice did say that it was a liberal fundraiser. They left a message for me to phone and just as I was getting my pen, my teenage daughter presses "delete". What did you do that for? She said, "well it was from the liberals".
Too funny!
I guess they are trying to entice known NDPers in the community and think Bob is the ticket. Nope, I'd rather stick pins in my eyes!

From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 26 June 2007 10:37 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
She's a smart kid.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 26 June 2007 10:39 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're raising her right, Jan.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 26 June 2007 11:02 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting that Bob Rae is doing so much of the rubber chicken fundraising.

Lets see, the favourite of the Liberal backroom boys, going around around an collecting brownie points.

Going to take a long time at $50 a pop. To be fair though, $50 a pop is nothing to sneeze at, even by good old day Liberal standards, if you shake the atendees down for more before they leave. And the Liberals just can't do as many of those $500 a plate dinners as they used to. Traditionally, a lot of those attenddes would already have given a bundle. With the current limits there probably are only a small fraction of those $500 a plate meals.

Life is tough for Liberals these days.

At any rate. Yes, Bobbie and all those brownie points.

Now he wouldn't need those to fuel his campaign in Toronto Centre would he? Or to grease his way into the shadow cabinet?

So what would those brownie points be for?


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
tzarina
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posted 26 June 2007 01:08 PM      Profile for tzarina     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pogo, I did not hear from a friend of a friend of a liberal about Bob Rae in Sarnia. The local daily monopoly called SARNIA OBSERVER wrote about it well ahead of actual date. The Observer also already informed that B. Hargrove will be in town on Nov.22!!! How is that for early notice.If Jack Layton decides to visit us the story will be printed the day after most likely. So much about media fairness.
From: Sarnia | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
tzarina
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posted 26 June 2007 01:15 PM      Profile for tzarina     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Adam T: Bob Rae must take full credit (or blame) for all he did when he was the Premier. He appointed every single cabinet minister, he agreed with every decision made. He made polls for NDP the way they were. Compare that to Manitoba ( third consecutive majority, and the largest at that) or Saskatchewan. You cannot separate collapse of NDP in 1990 from Bob Rae, no matter how hard you try to twist the numbers.
From: Sarnia | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
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posted 26 June 2007 02:12 PM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't like Rae. I think his poor people skills damaged the party and the province.
I don't think the social contract itself was that bad but it was not presented well- it certainly was better than layoffs. The province was in very deep economic trouble at the time and finding a way to reduce costs without putting anyone out of work wasn't the worst possible decision.
That said, the NDP hit in Ontario was mostly about the economy "stupid"-- To say that the NDP reign here was that bad is quite unfair. While mistakes were made and leadership wanting, the big problem was the collapse of the Ontario economy, damage due to Free Trade, the punishing changes in Federal transfers from the Mulroney government, rising social costs. The war that many fought against the government over the social contract was also damaging. Nobody on the left proposed alternatives to the social contract so the right wing won the day and in the end many of those workers were fired and the province went through a terrible nasty time. I'll remember the Harris years all my life. I also remember the right-wing propaganda. When the GST came in big billboards went up across the province saying "Taxed off at Bob Rae" even though the new NDP government had not made any tax changes as yet and were not responsible for the GST. The crooked right-wingers of the time did this to tar him before he could do anything.

I am not going to blame Rae for all of that. And those of you who want to blame him should read remind yourselves of the federal transfer changes, the horrible global recession, the manufacturing failures, even the GST that put voters in a bad mood. I do not believe Tommy Douglas himself would have been able to get re-elected in 1995. Yes, Rae was disapointing and made mistakes but he was not the entire reason for the defeat of the NDP.

And yes, his popularity was above the party throughout that time. For myself, I think he should have stood up stronger against the auto insurance companies, made a stronger case for the social contract and negotiated rather than imposing it. He also should have brought in a budget statement before his first budget showing that with no policy changes, the province was already 8 billion in debt (he added a billion to settle landclaims and pay-equity rulings in the first budget). But these mistakes were not the driving story.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 26 June 2007 02:34 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought I liked Rae, but after he lost the leadership race, he really acted like a jerk. I understand the disappointment he felt, but, still.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
bohajal
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posted 26 June 2007 03:04 PM      Profile for bohajal   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
To Sean in Ottawa:

When confronted with his betrayal of NDP principles (during his Premiership), Bob Rae did not point out to all these excuses you mentioned. He simply replied :"I am Premier for all of Ontario".

ETA:

The Bob Rae administration what chharacterized by the centralization of power in his office. His cabinet members were too afraid for their positions (and those of their relatives) cowardly and obediently submitted.

I mentioned "relatives" since Cabinet Ministers were swapping their relatives with other Ministers for political staffing. Again, too coward to play it in the open, they resorted to some "creativity".

[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: bohajal ]


From: planet earth, I believe | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 26 June 2007 03:30 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It didn't help that some of the ministers were flakes and needed babysitters.

The ONDP was totally unprepared for being government. Many of the MPPs never expected to be elected, let alone governing. What followed, irregardless of the specifics, should not have surprised anyone.

People criticise them for specific mistakes. If they had handled X and Y better, they would inevitably have screwed up W and Z instead.

I don't blame Bob Rae for that. That's all water under the bridge.

My concern is only with his present role. What he does now, even how he got there, has nothing to do with his days as Premier.

His not only in the wrong party. He's a bootlicking climber. He's clearly smart and no simple apologist even in his present role; and he may well be a great guy and a good person to have as a friend- I couldn't care less. Those things have little or nothing to do with qualities that make for a politician I can respect and work with/for.

[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: KenS ]


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
tzarina
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posted 26 June 2007 03:54 PM      Profile for tzarina     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I did hear stories about relatives swapping to, but always have dismissed them as liberal propaganda. I consider the practice dishonest and it should be exposed. The libs were apparently not much better with all adscams et all.
From: Sarnia | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 26 June 2007 05:59 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The ONDP was totally unprepared for being government.

Rae became leader of the ONDP in 1983. If the party was so totally unprepared to be in power ot was as much his fault as anyone elses.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
bohajal
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posted 26 June 2007 06:08 PM      Profile for bohajal   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I have never been in government, KenS. Yet I know that NDP principles stand against, not for, cronyism, dishonesty and unfairness.
From: planet earth, I believe | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
redflag
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posted 26 June 2007 07:24 PM      Profile for redflag     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm sorry, but I will not tolerate the Bob Rae apologizing.

Bob Rae is the man who is responsible for the tuition fees in Ontario being raised by up to 5% for undergrads each year and 8% (that last figure might be wrong) for post grad students not including the completely deregulated professional programs and such.

What the hell kind of politician with any principles at all allows this sort of thing to happen?

I hold him personally responsible for each person who drops out of post secondary education because they can't afford it. He had the opportunity to make post secondary education better but instead he decided he'd pander to the fat cats, and I will never forgive him for it.


From: here | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 26 June 2007 08:02 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, you are right, I am raising her.

The liberals are trying to get NDPers to vote for them because - cough - they have become - cough - progressive - cough, and now they really, really care about the environment, Dion even named his dog Kyoto. Now that is COMMITMENT!


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
FraserValleyMan
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posted 26 June 2007 09:39 PM      Profile for FraserValleyMan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by KenS:
My concern is only with his present role. What he does now, even how he got there, has nothing to do with his days as Premier.

His not only in the wrong party. He's a bootlicking climber. ...



I could swear you were talking about Ujjal Dosanjh.

I think the question is whether they are in the wrong party now, ... or were Rae and Dosanjh always Liberals who were merely stationed in the NDP as part of a longer term career mission.


From: Port Coquitlam, BC | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 26 June 2007 10:12 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thats historical revisionism. And its moralistic.

Ujjal's participation in the NDP followed from his work as a progressive lawyer. Rae's follwed from his student activism.

Politics changes people.

I think it pays to stick with the present, and not assume there is some inherent character flaw in people that predisposed them to be what they are now.

quote:
...merely stationed in the NDP as part of a longer term career mission.

There are very clear and straightforward routes for anbitious people to rise up through the Liberal Party to a career in politics.

Hell of a lot easier and more chance of success than a convoluted 'plan' of using the NDP.

[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: KenS ]


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
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posted 26 June 2007 11:42 PM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hope I have not been unclear. I am not apologizing for Rae nor am I saying that he made the best choices. I was particularly upset with some of the things he did/did not do. However, it is wrong to say that he was responsible for an NDP meltdown that would have happened even if he had not had all these shortcomings. I was in this province and witnessed the weight of propaganda that came down on the NDP the viciousness the media protrayed and the down right lies by implication and direct that were published at that time. I remember the nastiness shown people like Gigantes and others who were only trying to serve their constituents. I also remember the meltdown in the Ontario economy and the part the feds played in that, free trade, globalization and an internation recession. I remember the Ontario clothing industry almost wipped out in a single year....
I don't think anything - even perfection could have saved that government from defeat.
They also did a number of things well and got no credit for that.
Was Bob Rae a dissapointment- yes- was he responsible for the train wreck that hit the NDP no- all he could have done is gone to the back of the train but it was going down that track no matter waht he did.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
tzarina
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posted 27 June 2007 05:58 AM      Profile for tzarina     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Joshua Kubiniec, thank you us for reminding Bob Rae role in killing the future of many of our bright students who could not effort tuition fees. By losing them we all pay the price by not having these people contributing to the society according to their full potential. Anyway, Bob Rae is now a liberal liability so I can vote NDP with a clear conscience.
From: Sarnia | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 27 June 2007 06:12 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm sorry, but I will not tolerate the Bob Rae apologizing.

Bob Rae is the man who is responsible for the tuition fees in Ontario being raised by up to 5% for undergrads each year and 8% (that last figure might be wrong) for post grad students not including the completely deregulated professional programs and such.


I am as willing as anyone to condemn Rae for his recommendations on tuition fees. But let's not compare apples and oranges. This is something he did long after he left politics and this had nothing to do with his record as Premier of Ontario.

There is plenty to criticize about the Rae government, without trying to say that he was a failed Premier from 1990 to 1995 and then use as evidence, a policy he came out for in 2004!


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
tzarina
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posted 27 June 2007 06:23 AM      Profile for tzarina     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
stockholm, bob rae is both our problem and our opportunity. We have to distance ourselves from him and all free criticism is in order if it is based on actual facts. Be not afraid of the truth!
From: Sarnia | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 27 June 2007 06:24 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree. But if we want to criticize his actions as Premier, the FACT is that we need to focus on what happened between 1990 and 1995 and NOT what he did 10 years later when he no longer had any tied to the NDP.

That is a FACT.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
tzarina
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posted 27 June 2007 06:30 AM      Profile for tzarina     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
stockholm, we cannot forget that Bob Rae is running against us! He raises money for the liberals, he is a lib candidate in Toronto center.
From: Sarnia | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 27 June 2007 06:31 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All the more why if we are going to criticize him, we better get our facts right.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
tostig
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posted 27 June 2007 06:38 AM      Profile for tostig     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Keep up the in-fighting and we'll get another Conservative government. Ah, a repeat of Ontario in 1995, when the Unions chose the CSR.

And what Rae did after is important. Stop living in the past and start looking forward.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
tzarina
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posted 27 June 2007 06:42 AM      Profile for tzarina     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
what infighting are you talking about tostig?
From: Sarnia | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 27 June 2007 06:50 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If the Ontario Liberals didn't want Harris to be Premier in 1995, they should have simply endorsed the incumbent NDP government and not have run any candidates in that election.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
tostig
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posted 27 June 2007 08:51 AM      Profile for tostig     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by tzarina:
what infighting are you talking about tostig?

Look at the two posts before mine. Doesn't sound like any kind of reconcilatory tone to me.

quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
If the Ontario Liberals didn't want Harris to be Premier in 1995, they should have simply endorsed the incumbent NDP government and not have run any candidates in that election.

In hindsight, whatever would have been a satisfactory strategy for both parties should have been fine. The 1985 coalition wasn't that bad was it?

Can we move foreward with cooperation so Ontario 1995 doesn't happen again?

[ 27 June 2007: Message edited by: tostig ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 27 June 2007 11:35 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you can find any difference whatsoever between the policies of John Tory and those of Dalton McGuinty - please wake us up.

Meanwhile, if the Ontario Liberals are really so desperate to defeat the PCs at all cost, I look forward to them making a few public gestures and pledges to prove it. Such as a unilateral withdrawal of Liberal candidates from all NDP held ridings, as well as changing the threshold for the referendum on electoral reform from 60% to 50%.


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redflag
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posted 27 June 2007 12:16 PM      Profile for redflag     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

I am as willing as anyone to condemn Rae for his recommendations on tuition fees. But let's not compare apples and oranges. This is something he did long after he left politics and this had nothing to do with his record as Premier of Ontario.

There is plenty to criticize about the Rae government, without trying to say that he was a failed Premier from 1990 to 1995 and then use as evidence, a policy he came out for in 2004!


What Bob Rae did long after he was premier is fair game to criticize him for in my books. Thanks to him my tuition is 9% higher then it was two years ago.

I honestly hope that all of the students who go to the polls during his by-election remember that.


From: here | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Hunky_Monkey
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posted 27 June 2007 12:20 PM      Profile for Hunky_Monkey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Has there been an NDP candidate nominated in Toronto Centre yet? If so, how strong of a candidate?

It would be better than the best sex of your life if the NDP defeated Rae in a by-election


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tzarina
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posted 27 June 2007 12:39 PM      Profile for tzarina     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Joshua, make sure that students you ate talking about actually show up and vote. We need all the help we can get.
From: Sarnia | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 27 June 2007 12:50 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What Bob Rae did long after he was premier is fair game to criticize him for in my books. Thanks to him my tuition is 9% higher then it was two years ago.

If your tuition is higher, it really thanks to the McGuinty government that chose to implement his suggestions.

I agree totally with criticizing Rae - but I'm just making the point that if we are making a case about what was wrong with him AS PREMIER we shoudl concentrate on what he did as premier - not what he did many years later.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
largeheartedboy
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posted 27 June 2007 01:10 PM      Profile for largeheartedboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by tostig:

Can we move foreward with cooperation so Ontario 1995 doesn't happen again?

[ 27 June 2007: Message edited by: tostig ]


Tostig,
I look forward to working with you on the Vote for MMP campaign. PM for info on how to get involved.

Voting for MMP October 10 is the best way to ensure good government in Ontario that reflects the majority view.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
social democrat
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posted 27 June 2007 01:36 PM      Profile for social democrat        Edit/Delete Post
Toronto Centre NDP candidate El-Farouk Khaki has a high profile in the LGBT community and good ethnic connections as an immigration lawyer. He already gets some media coverage, but nowhere near what Bob Rae gets. As a former Queen's Park staffer in the Rae government, he can talk about that period too if he wishes.
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Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 27 June 2007 04:32 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
If you can find any difference whatsoever between the policies of John Tory and those of Dalton McGuinty - please wake us up.
One of the differences:
quote:
Some will remember that Bob Rae and David Peterson announced similarly ambitious plans for subway expansion in the 1990s – if announcements were subways, there'd be a lot of happy commuters riding the Eglinton underground today. There is plenty to be cynical about in the timing of McGuinty's largesse. Having already prorogued Parliament for the summer before the already-scheduled October election, this amounts to more of a campaign promise than a government announcement. We may all reasonably assume that McGuinty is hoping that this one big cash drop will sew up all the votes he needs in the GTA so he can spend the remainder of the campaign battling John Tory's Progressive Conservatives in the rest of the province. The NDP is reduced to sputtering that they'd do the same or more, and that they don't find the Liberals trustworthy.

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FraserValleyMan
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posted 27 June 2007 09:27 PM      Profile for FraserValleyMan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by KenS:
Thats historical revisionism. And its moralistic.

Ujjal's participation in the NDP followed from his work as a progressive lawyer. Rae's follwed from his student activism.



I don’t know why you say it’s moralistic. As for Dosanjh getting involved in politics because of his work as a lawyer, I certainly believed that to be the case. However, he was politically active in his university as a Marxist of some kind, so there was political activity prior to being called to the bar.

As I say, I always believed in the past that his political work with the NDP was largely a function of his work as a lawyer, including his courage and fortitude in speaking out against Sikh extremists even after they had assaulted and nearly killed him in one of the worst acts of political violence in recent B.C. history. The only violent crime with a political character that exceeds that is the murder of Tara Singh Hayer, a potential Air India witness.

But should I still take that attitude when new information comes in, mainly his “defection” to the Liberals? The first question that comes up is, “Was it a genuine defection or something else?” Should I still take that attitude when I have been reliably informed by a former MLA that he never could understand why the party elected Dosanjh its provincial leader because he had heard from many in the Sikh community that Dosanjh was conducting serious negotiations with Paul Martin and Brian Tobin around joining the Liberals as early as 1995 and 1996, more than three years before he sought and won the BC NDP leadership?


quote:
Originally posted by KenS:
There are very clear and straightforward routes for anbitious people to rise up through the Liberal Party to a career in politics.

Hell of a lot easier and more chance of success than a convoluted 'plan' of using the NDP.


I think it’s been said that the worst way to rise to the top of the Liberal Party is to start at the bottom. Stealing elected personnel from other parties is, if not a major recruitment channel in numeric terms, an important feature of Liberal hegemony. It allows the party to demonstrate and re-demonstrate to its supporters its positioning as the established, full-service brokerage party on the national scene. Furthermore, it tends to demoralize supporters of rival parties whenever it’s successful.

You may be right in saying that Dosanjh could easily have imagined and pursued a more direct path to Liberal success story, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the Party agreed to offer him one of those career channels. For some reason, perhaps his Marxist past, the Liberals may have decided that additional preparation and elongated initiation rituals were needed.

[ 27 June 2007: Message edited by: FraserValleyMan ]


From: Port Coquitlam, BC | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 27 June 2007 10:13 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don’t know why you say it’s moralistic.

When people desert the NDP and go over to the dark side it is rightly seen as some kind of propensity to do that sort of thing.

Politicians rationalize all sorts of crap. Its one of the stocks of existence. [and it is true for those of us for whom it is not there job.]

Rationalizing going over to the other side is way over the top as to acceptability. But it's still a rationalization.

It's not hard to comprehend. Let's see, I'm washed up in the NDP. I'm really addicted to being a politician who has a significant role [phrased in more edifying terms].....


To say that people more or less planned it that way from the beginning takes some kind of bent. Maybe 'moralistic' isn't quite right. But some kind of projection not based on the evidence or on most likely possibilities.

As to what the MLA told you. Ujjal made enemies in becoming Leader. Maybe he deserved that. But anyone at the time would have other than people with characters like Mike Harcourt or Corky Evans.

When I hear stories like that and the person is not a known fabricator, I give people the benefit of the doubt that they beleive what they are telling me, and that it is told in good faith. But that doesn't mean I should take it as fact.

There are so many axes to grind in politics [as in unions, workplaces, families....], that I have heard flat out full contradictory statements of fact about what someone has done.

That is at the best of times, let alone in the context of a nasty leadership contest.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
FraserValleyMan
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posted 27 June 2007 10:21 PM      Profile for FraserValleyMan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by KenS:
When people desert the NDP and go over to the dark side it is rightly seen as some kind of propensity to do that sort of thing.
...

When I hear stories like that and the person is not a known fabricator, I give people the benefit of the doubt that they beleive what they are telling me, and that it is told in good faith. But that doesn't mean I should take it as fact.

There are so many axes to grind in politics [as in unions, workplaces, families....], that I have heard flat out full contradictory statements of fact about what someone has done.

That is at the best of times, let alone in the context of a nasty leadership contest.



I wasn't moralizing about Dosanjh's defection. I am asking why we need to be sucker bait for this kind of setup, why we never learn.

The account concerning Dosanjh's 1995 and 1996 negotiations with Tobin and Martin was related to me many years after the leadership race, in fact after Dosanjh had switched parties. It wasn't in the heat of the moment. It was long after the fact, and that annoyed me. I wish I had that information in 1996 when the leadership decision had to be made! But at that time, everyone who knew about it kept quiet. Stupid.


From: Port Coquitlam, BC | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 27 June 2007 10:22 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You may be right in saying that Dosanjh could easily have imagined and pursued a more direct path to Liberal success story, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the Party agreed to offer him one of those career channels. For some reason, perhaps his Marxist past, the Liberals may have decided that additional preparation and elongated initiation rituals were needed.

I'm saying more than that: you imagined one considerably more convoluted than the obvious.

When Dosanjh was a lawyer with a profile in the community the Liberals would have gladly taken him. They don't give a shit about what Marxist or lefty pasts you have. There are plenty of people who've gone that route. Got a profile, they'll take you.

He may not have rated a high profile candidacy right away. But that's all about the capital in the profile- professed ideology they don't care about.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 27 June 2007 10:29 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The account ... was related to me many years after the leadership race, in fact after Dosanjh had switched parties. It wasn't in the heat of the moment. It was long after the fact,

Which makes it even more suspect.

IE, suspect of being cooked somewhere along the line by somebody(s) if it was circulating during the race. But the propensity for historical revisionism after a defection is an additional incentive for collective efforts at cooking.

No reason boring people further, we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

[ 27 June 2007: Message edited by: KenS ]


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
CharlotteAshley
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posted 28 June 2007 04:44 AM      Profile for CharlotteAshley   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Bob Rae is the man who is responsible for the tuition fees in Ontario being raised by up to 5% for undergrads each year and 8% (that last figure might be wrong) for post grad students not including the completely deregulated professional programs and such.[/QB]

I realize this may not be the place for it, but please remember, what Rae suggested for post secondary institutions was that the institution should be allowed to bring tuition up, but the government should cover the balance. So the cost to a student who is in a lower income bracket goes down, not up.

I'm not sure who you know who can't attend universty because they can't afford it, but I can direct them to several sources to help them get the funding they need. It is out there. There needs to be more, but it's there.

Running a university is exceptionally expensive business. It's ridiculous for the province to curb the university's revenue-earning capabilities. You'll see a reduction in quality of professors, bigger class sizes, fewer research grants, fewer scholarships, and crumbling buildings. Sound familiar?

If they want everyone to go to school, the responsibility lies with them, the government - not the institution.

Also remember that almost all post-graduate students have their tuition paid for them, so that raise you are looking at is pretty cosmetic.

Charlotte Ashley


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
CharlotteAshley
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posted 28 June 2007 04:49 AM      Profile for CharlotteAshley   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by KenS:

When people desert the NDP and go over to the dark side it is rightly seen as some kind of propensity to do that sort of thing.

Politicians rationalize all sorts of crap. Its one of the stocks of existence. [and it is true for those of us for whom it is not there job.]

Rationalizing going over to the other side is way over the top as to acceptability. But it's still a rationalization.


I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here - are you suggesting a voter should remain loyal to a card she keeps in her wallet rather than adapt and change her opinions and support according to who she feels will do the best job at the time?

Charlotte


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 28 June 2007 05:31 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
are you suggesting a voter should remain loyal to a card she keeps in her wallet rather than adapt and change her opinions and support according to who she feels will do the best job at the time?

We're not talking voters here.

People like Dosanjh are expressing and committing a whole lot more than their vote when they participate in a party. And they have years of shared work and commitmment with others- many of whom they know make sacrifices for them in particular.

A voter, or a member of a party even, owes no one anything.

It's not the same for a politician- let alone a politician whose supporters and peers have elevated them to the highest position they can give him.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 28 June 2007 05:40 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Also remember that almost all post-graduate students have their tuition paid for them, so that raise you are looking at is pretty cosmetic.

Many graduate students have their fees paid, yes.

But almost all ?! Even a majority?

And even for those who have fellowships- that is fixed. So when tuition fees go up, that is money out of their pocket the same as anyone else.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
CharlotteAshley
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posted 28 June 2007 06:20 AM      Profile for CharlotteAshley   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by KenS:
Many graduate students have their fees paid, yes.

But almost all ?! Even a majority?

And even for those who have fellowships- that is fixed. So when tuition fees go up, that is money out of their pocket the same as anyone else.


I'm afraid my evidence is purely anecdotal, but once you get to the post-graduate level (I can't speak for graduates - I think they take out loans like everyone else) every candidate I have ever known has gone to the school which would pay them to be there, and between scholarships, grants, rebates and TAing time, none of them ever needed to work an hour of their degrees.

I gather doctoral candidates in the social sciences and humanities have an easier time of it, medical or dental practicioners only seem to have about half their education funded for them - but then, the province also offers rebates to MDs based on how many years they were in school.

Charlotte


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KenS
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posted 28 June 2007 08:39 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, what I Know is pretty out of date.

But its enough to know that you mis-characterized things.

Post-docs are not really students anymore. And they are a tiny fraction of who is around anyway.

When you said post-graduates I first read it as post-docs. When I read it again I thought maybe you were making a general refernece to anyone who is a student who has a degree. [IE, graduate students and students in professional programs.]

It's a minority of graduate students who have ANY kind of fellowship or other assistance that isn't loans. [Maybe someone can make at least an eductated guess on how small.]

And of those who do have fellowships, it would be a minority who are supported their whole time they are graduate graduate students. [Other than the cash cow disciplines: business, applied science, some engineering.]


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 28 June 2007 08:59 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm going to do this as seperate post, rather than edit, because I need to make an actual correction.

I read what Catherine said carelessely:

quote:
I'm afraid my evidence is purely anecdotal, but once you get to the post-graduate level (I can't speak for graduates - I think they take out loans like everyone else) every candidate I have ever known has gone to the school which would pay them to be there, and between scholarships, grants, rebates and TAing time, none of them ever needed to work an hour of their degrees.

OK, you are actually talking about graduate students- generally those working on a PhD. And you are looking at too narrow a picture.

In the first place, a great number of people who get those fellowships do it by first 'proving themselves' in graduate school for a year or more on their own nickel entirely.

And not everybody- not even close- gets a fellowship for any of their graduate work. Very few in professional or degrees that end with a Masters.

And like I said earlier, this is no free or even easy ride- if fees get raised, you need to find an equivalant chunk of cash somewhere else [and next year and...].

And lastly, TAing IS work. And the longer you are there it gets more like any other work. In fact, it slides into teaching for exploited pay. IE, the fellowship runs out before you are done, and you pay your way now by being part of the massive causal faculty pool.

This labour pool- with a fraction of the pay and benefits of the ever diminishing proportion of faculty tenured or on tenure track- is one of the lovely ways that universities make ends meet after decades of cuts.

---

What you see is understandable if your experience is of people applying for and going off to graduate school.

Compared to having been an undergraduate it looks like a great deal.

But unless you are in one of those cash cow programs I mentioned, it's no free ride.... and the fact that you are treated better than an undergraduate wears off pretty fast.

[ 28 June 2007: Message edited by: KenS ]


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
tzarina
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posted 28 June 2007 10:41 AM      Profile for tzarina     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To get to postgraduate level you must finish undergrad studies. If you can't afford that there is no point in discussing the cost of your PhD studies.
From: Sarnia | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
tzarina
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posted 28 June 2007 10:45 AM      Profile for tzarina     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anyone here went to Bob Rae lunch fundraiser in Sarnia? Anyone knows how many people showed up?
From: Sarnia | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
social democrat
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posted 28 June 2007 06:44 PM      Profile for social democrat        Edit/Delete Post
There are numerous student residences and student renters in Toronto Centre (from Ryerson and UofT).
The campus activists are already bashing Rae at every opportunity.

From: Toronto | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
FraserValleyMan
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posted 29 June 2007 11:28 AM      Profile for FraserValleyMan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by KenS:

Which makes it even more suspect.

IE, suspect of being cooked somewhere along the line by somebody(s) if it was circulating during the race. But the propensity for historical revisionism after a defection is an additional incentive for collective efforts at cooking.

No reason boring people further, we'll have to agree to disagree on this.


Maybe we do have to disagree.

However, when I read this I am struck by the notion that you're convinced this account is all but certainly false, that no such talks between Tobin, Martin and Dosanjh ever happened in 1995 to 1996. Why is that almost certainly the truth of the matter? Personally, I could be persuaded either way, but the person who told me this was credible to me, unless it's demonstrated otherwise.

Wouldn't discussions of that sort be consistent in a way with Ujjal's more recent "furry rug/Cabinet is quick" chats with one Gurmant Grewal?


From: Port Coquitlam, BC | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 29 June 2007 11:56 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do you seriously expect us to believe that in 1996 (eight years before Dosanjh went into federal politics as a Liberal) he had secret talks with various big "L" Liberals whereby he agreed to try to become leader of the BC NDP so he could "throw" the election to the BC Liberals and then be rewarded with a cabinet position years after.

Let's get out our tin foil hats.


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KenS
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posted 29 June 2007 12:06 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I am struck by the notion that you're convinced this account is all but certainly false

I think I already said that I'd just rate it suspect.

Even when it is convenient to my point of view, I take such accounts with a grain of salt. I know all too well- and you should to- how such accounts are 'developed' incrementally. The only increment required for example by the person who told you and probably is generally credible is that they say or imply that they know it to be fact, when such is not the case. Essentially the same way urban legends work.

I have to trust a persons judgement a great deal to not exagerate things on such information. They have to more than just 'credible'.

Clearly, Dosanjh is capable of a lot of duplicity. In my books that still does not justify retrospective atrribution of guilt, blame, whatever.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
FraserValleyMan
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posted 29 June 2007 12:08 PM      Profile for FraserValleyMan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Do you seriously expect us to believe that in 1996 (eight years before Dosanjh went into federal politics as a Liberal) he had secret talks with various big "L" Liberals whereby he agreed to try to become leader of the BC NDP so he could "throw" the election to the BC Liberals and then be rewarded with a cabinet position years after.

Let's get out our tin foil hats.


The person who told me that discussions were held was quite credible. He didn't make any claims about "throwing" a provincial election. The talks were about possibly joining the federal Liberals.

However, if it is true that Dosanjh was operating under Liberal discipline as early as 1996 it would indeed help to explain his curiously ineffectual strategy for the 2001 election, which greatly disappointed even those who had fought to help him win that leadership. One of them even quit as his principal aide about six months before the election saying that Premier Dosanjh was refusing to face reality and plan for a strategy of electing a strong opposition.

It may be that the explanations are simpler. It may be that both Rae and Dosanjh blame their disappointments on the NDP, ... while the NDP blames their disappointments on them.

Surely the point is that we just don't know, and our leaders in a collective sense don't trust us enough to bring us into their confidence and tell us what's actually going on or going down. They give us the mushroom theory of management and treat us like sensitive little ideological children who cannot be exposed to any realpolitik data for fear we might be so shocked we'd burst into tears and never canvass or contribute again!


From: Port Coquitlam, BC | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 29 June 2007 12:33 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
People "talk" to people in other parties all the time. You'd be surprised how many personal friendships cross party lines in politics. It was never any secret that Dosanjh was good friends with Herb Dhaliwal. Let's face, in 1996, the federal NDP was totally moribund having lost official party status in 1993 etc...so if Dosanjh "talked" to someone, it desn't surprise me in the least.

But to go from there to saying that he went out to become Premier of BC and leader of the BCNDP so he could purposely run a weak campaign and lose is absurd.

Baseball players might "throw" a game in exchange for bribes from bookies. Politicians run to win.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
FraserValleyMan
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posted 29 June 2007 01:09 PM      Profile for FraserValleyMan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
But to go from there to saying that he went out to become Premier of BC and leader of the BCNDP so he could purposely run a weak campaign and lose is absurd.

Baseball players might "throw" a game in exchange for bribes from bookies. Politicians run to win.



So why did Dosanjh's principal aide, who had worked tirelessly to help him win the leadership, quit in total frustration saying that Dosanjh was not acting reasonably, was behaving irrationally, was not taking even minimal account of the most obvious political realities in his approach to the 2001 election? Why the total irrationality from such an apparently very bright man? Was it irrationality, or something else?

You must be the only person in the world who thinks that professional athletes are more likely to take bribes than politicians! That's not to say I subscribe to the theory that most Canadian politicians are crooked, I don't. But your comparison is funny, nonetheless.


From: Port Coquitlam, BC | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 29 June 2007 01:29 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think that smart people are perfectly capable of making incredibly stupid strategic decisions.

Paul Martin is no idiot - but even though the Liberal campaign was ridiculously bad in 2006 - that doesn't mean that i think there is the slightest chance that Martin lost on purpose in exchange for "future considerations".

In 1993, Kim Campbell ran a ridiculously bad campaign. Maybe (just maybe) she secretely held talks with the Liberals and they said that as long as she made sure that the PC seat total was in single digits - she would be named Canada's Consul General to Los Angeles!

Let's face it. In 2001, there was absolutely no chance whatsoever that the BCNDP was going to escape annhilation. I suspect that Dosanjh probably just saw the writing on the wall and gave up and just sleep walked through the campaign. But even if he had run a brilliant campaign, at best the NDP would have won 4 seats instead of 2. On the other hand, if Glen Clark had stuck around the NDP probably would have won ZERO seats.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
FraserValleyMan
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posted 29 June 2007 01:36 PM      Profile for FraserValleyMan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
I think that smart people are perfectly capable of making incredibly stupid strategic decisions.

Paul Martin is no idiot - but even though the Liberal campaign was ridiculously bad in 2006 - that doesn't mean that i think there is the slightest chance that Martin lost on purpose in exchange for "future considerations".

In 1993, Kim Campbell ran a ridiculously bad campaign. Maybe (just maybe) she secretely held talks with the Liberals and they said that as long as she made sure that the PC seat total was in single digits - she would be named Canada's Consul General to Los Angeles!

Let's face it. In 2001, there was absolutely no chance whatsoever that the BCNDP was going to escape annhilation. I suspect that Dosanjh probably just saw the writing on the wall and gave up and just sleep walked through the campaign. But even if he had run a brilliant campaign, at best the NDP would have won 4 seats instead of 2. On the other hand, if Glen Clark had stuck around the NDP probably would have won ZERO seats.



You make a good argument with regards to Martin and Campbell, except for one critical factor. What's the other party they later joined?

Your last paragraph I really disagree with. Had Glen Clark stuck around the NDP would have kept a dozen or more seats, and if Dosanjh had been playing with a full deck, he could have salvaged a dozen seats as well. That's why his principal aide, who was a lot closer to the situation that you or I, quit in frustration. He could see that such opportunities as there were for damage limitation were not being taken up.

So, why did Dosanjh just "sleep walk" as you put it? Well, ... what's your theory? I thought you said politicians, unlike athletes, always play to win, period. Sleep walking and not giving a damn would be consistent with someone who was already planning and being promised a future elsewhere. As soon as this little provincial item is out of the way. The unpleasant prelude to a warm reception on the furry carpet where Cabinet is quick.


From: Port Coquitlam, BC | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 29 June 2007 01:49 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This ridiculous conspiracy theory has two major flies in the ointment.

First of all, since it was 10000% certain that the BC Liberals were going to win a crushing victory in 2001 anyways, it really didn't matter what Dosanjh did. They didn't need to make any shady deals - they were going to win regardless.

The idea that Gordon Campbell (who had notoriously strained relations with the federal Liberals anyways) was going to call Paul Martin and say "Hey Paul, can you make a deal whereby Dosanjh gets promised a federal Liberal cabinet seat in exchange for throwing the 2001 NDP campaign to enough of a degree that I win 77 out of 79 seats (as opposed to the 70 out of 79 seats I am guaranteed to win even if the NDP runs a perfect campaign) seems absurd. What was in it for the Liberals? The stakes would have been so low. Who cares if the NDP gets reduced to 6 seats out of 79 or 2 seats out of 79???

BTW: You may recall that the man Dosanjh beat for the BCNDP leadership in 2000 was none other than Gordon Wilson, who was trying to lead his third different political party. Who knows what shady deals and offers were made to him to get him to join the BCNDP!

[ 29 June 2007: Message edited by: Stockholm ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 29 June 2007 02:19 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pulease...

...before it has a chance to start,

spare us from re-runs of 'Glen Clark, for and against'.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
FraserValleyMan
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posted 29 June 2007 02:55 PM      Profile for FraserValleyMan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by KenS:
Pulease...

...before it has a chance to start,

spare us from re-runs of 'Glen Clark, for and against'.



Sorry, Ken. You're way too late. I am already preparing material on behalf of Premier Clark, who is way to busy becoming a millionaire in the Pattison Group to be bothered with rants in the blogosphere.

Glen was and is a totally decent guy. Unlike some others, he genuinely wanted to moderate the NDP and end the never ending war between the party's labour and socialist constitutencies and the business community. Had the economy stayed strong, he might have succeeded. But housing went into the tank, the forest and mineral industries were in a funk, and incidentally still are on the forests side, especially with the pine beetle catastrophe, and his chances slipped away.

Fake stories that Clark condemned all environmentalists are simply childhish lies reapeated endlessly by people who are organically incapable of either growing up or telling the truth. Still mad at the jailing of Clayoquot protesters under "moderate Mike Harcourt", these intentionally insincere yahoos have chosen to take their rage out on Glen Clark. Why? Because that's what the media have told them will be a marketable smear, so being the kind of creatures of conscience they are, they go for it! BC politics, ... a study in the crumby side of human nature!

Over to you, Ken.

[ 29 June 2007: Message edited by: FraserValleyMan ]


From: Port Coquitlam, BC | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
civicduty
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posted 29 June 2007 02:59 PM      Profile for civicduty        Edit/Delete Post
It seems that Bob Rae' move to the Liberals has had an effect on Mayor Miller.

Rumor from the city hall insiders is the reason for Miller ripping up (so to speak) his NDP membership is he may move to the Liberals provincially.

He and his last campaign manager (JL) feel he could not never win as NDP leader but has a good chance as leader of the Provincial Liberals. They are anticipating that Dalton will not do as well as everyone thinks. If he takes the Liberals to a minority, then the long knives of political hacks and power brokers will be out.

Miller has made it clear he did not wish to be mayor after 2 terms.

Bob Rae was welcomed with open arms into the Liberal party. If Bob can be accepted then no problems for David.

The blurring bewteen parties is an indication why there is no clear leader in the peoples' mind. Conservatives moving to Liberals, Liberals to the NDP, NDP to the Liberals. No difference between the parties and the professional politicans.

No leadership on any party. Harper is a liberal, Dion does not knwo what he wants to be, Jack has stayed true to his stands but will sell out to the highest bidder to be able to say see what we can do. Miller has forgotten about his broom and his words. "The last thing we need in Toronto and Canada is new taxes. but institutes taxes to remove over 400 million from the pockets of the poor and middle class Torontians that can least afford it.

Yep, everyone is looking for a leader that will work for Canadians. WE are all sick of the self serving professional politcians that inhabit the House, our legislatures and our city halls.


We need a political revolution in Canada.

That is the Bob Rae, Stephen Harper, Jack Layton and David Miller effect. I vblame all the politicans


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
FraserValleyMan
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posted 29 June 2007 03:07 PM      Profile for FraserValleyMan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
This ridiculous conspiracy theory has two major flies in the ointment.

First of all, since it was 10000% certain that the BC Liberals were going to win a crushing victory in 2001 anyways, it really didn't matter what Dosanjh did. ...


The idea that Gordon Campbell (who had notoriously strained relations with the federal Liberals anyways) ...


It was not 10,000% clear the Liberals were going to win, it was 1,000,000% clear. What wasn't clear was whether or not the NDP had to accept 0 to 2 seats or could, with a sensible strategy, retain a dozen or more. And that's still not known to this day, because the attempt was never made.

Dosanjh's principal aide walked out on him not because he thought the NDP could win, but because he knew far better that you or I that they were going to loose. He thought that by acknowledging early on the certainty of defeat that one could play to that and start a believable case for a strong, or at least viable opposition. Dosanjh was the one who wanted to keep on pretending that somehow or another he was going into a campaign for re-election as Premier. It may have been his pride getting in the way, who knows. Maybe he was unconsciously playing along with the needs of his future home team. People's ambitions and interests, when they are in conflict with the duties of their position, can do amazing things in terms of twisted judgement and amazingly poor performance.

Your bit about Gordon Campbell having bad relations with the Federal Liberals is just a bit off script. Part of the Liberal pitch was that relations with Ottawa would improve with a change to a Liberal provincial government, and that line has been repeated endlessly since the 2001 change of government, by Federal as well as provincial Liberals (including Stephane Dion), and by the media and the pundits.

[ 29 June 2007: Message edited by: FraserValleyMan ]


From: Port Coquitlam, BC | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 29 June 2007 06:16 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Leaders of the federal NDP has endured enough flak of the years for NOT running to be PM and for acknowledging they couldn't win. Now you are suggesting that a sitting NDP premier is supposed to go into an election admitting defeat and running for a strong opposition. That would have made the NDP even more of a laughing stock than it was.

What still makes zero sense to me is why it would matter so much to the BC Liberals whether they beat the NDP in 2001 77 seats to 2 or 67 seats to 12? A win is a win is a win.

It's one thing to make all kinds of shady deals to tip the balance between winning and losing, but it's another thing to make shady deals just to win 50 times as many seats as the official opposition instead of 10 times as many.

[ 29 June 2007: Message edited by: Stockholm ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 29 June 2007 06:40 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Rumor from the city hall insiders is the reason for Miller ripping up (so to speak) his NDP membership is he may move to the Liberals provincially.

Who's your insider? The cleaning lady?

Miller hadn't been a member of any party since 2004. He briefly re-joined the NDP last summer because he wanted to get lists of NDP check marks from the federal election campaign to use for his mayoral campaign. He was told that the NDP doesn't share its lists with anyone who is not an "officially" endorsed NDP candidate - so he picked up his marbles and went back to being non-partisan in December.

Much ado about nothing.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
bohajal
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posted 29 June 2007 07:39 PM      Profile for bohajal   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Who's your insider? The cleaning lady? -Stockholm

Stockholm,

Please watch your sexist and classist language (and perhaps views).

BTW I know many "cleaning ladies" and men and I can assure you they are much more honest, reliable and honourable than many NDP officials I have known.

An "NDPer" dismissive and derisive of working class people

-.

[ 29 June 2007: Message edited by: bohajal ]


From: planet earth, I believe | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
FraserValleyMan
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posted 29 June 2007 10:52 PM      Profile for FraserValleyMan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Leaders of the federal NDP has endured enough flak of the years for NOT running to be PM and for acknowledging they couldn't win. Now you are suggesting that a sitting NDP premier is supposed to go into an election admitting defeat and running for a strong opposition. That would have made the NDP even more of a laughing stock than it was.

What still makes zero sense to me is why it would matter so much to the BC Liberals whether they beat the NDP in 2001 77 seats to 2 or 67 seats to 12? A win is a win is a win.

It's one thing to make all kinds of shady deals to tip the balance between winning and losing, but it's another thing to make shady deals just to win 50 times as many seats as the official opposition instead of 10 times as many.



I think you're losing sight of the basic message. The point is to have a campaign that is believable. For a third party to talk openly about becoming government in one shot is not believable. Neither is it believable for a party that's been second or first place as the BC NDP had been, but by 2000 or 2001 was seen by everyone as a certain loser, to say we are running to win. You have to pick your arguments based on the positioning of the moment.

Did the BC Liberals care about the difference between 67 and 77 seats? There's some indication they did, that they really wanted a total rub-out scenario to clear the decks for a fairly radical retrenchment. Part of that radical retrenchment was just ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of Canada when they overturned Bill 29.

I don't know where you're getting this "shady deals" perspective from. If Dosanjh secretly desired a future career with the federal Liberals how would that not affect the manner in which he campaigned against their provincial farm team?


From: Port Coquitlam, BC | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 30 June 2007 05:48 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This whole string is a lot of ridiculous hyperbola and speculation and mad conspiracy theories that will never be proven. But, it takes a huge amount of time and money and effort to become leader of a party, premier and then to purposely run a campaign that is just bad enough to ensure defeat, but not so bad that it becomes obvious what you are trying to do.

To be in politics in the first place, you have to have an ego that is more gigantic than anything any of us could imagine and you have to believe that you can and will win. Apparently to this Brian Mulroney is utterly convinced that if he had chosen to run again in 1993 he could have won a third majority government!!

IF Dosanjh had been planning to join the federal Liberals as far back as 1996/1997 then there was a far easier route for him to have followed. All he had to do was resign from the Clark government in 2000 and run as a federal Liberal in 2000 (in which case he would have had the pleasure of serving a full four year term as part of a majority Liberal government etc...) and saved himself a lot of trouble. Unless you believe that there were talks in smoke filled rooms where Liberal operatives hired Dosanjh to be some sort of "double agent" who was supposed to become BCNDP leader in order to then purposely sabotage the party. I'm sorry but the assumptions that all of this require are too far fetched for an Ian Flemming James Bond story!


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 30 June 2007 05:50 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
BTW I know many "cleaning ladies" and men and I can assure you they are much more honest, reliable and honourable

Cleaning ladies and janitors probably are very honest and reliable and honourable people. Whether they have access to Mayor Miller's inner-most thoughts is another story (unless they are able to plant bugs in his meetings with strategists)


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
bohajal
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posted 30 June 2007 06:16 AM      Profile for bohajal   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Stockholm,

You skirted my comment that your use of the expression is sexist and classist. Convenient!

That is what f***ed up the NDP. The hidden sexists, classists and racists.


From: planet earth, I believe | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 30 June 2007 06:17 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You are soooo boring.....yawn

I have better things to do with my time than to respond to the "thought police".

If you think the NDP is a racist, sexist party - then go form your own new party. The door is open.

[ 30 June 2007: Message edited by: Stockholm ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 30 June 2007 06:31 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All right, all right. Break it up.

"Cleaning lady" isn't that great a phrase, Stockholm. I know it's still in wide use, but I don't think you need to get so defensive when someone mentions the class and gender connotations behind the phrase you've used.

And bohojal, it would be lovely if you could try not to be so confrontational when you draw something like that to someone's attention. You might find you win more friends and influence people that way.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 30 June 2007 06:34 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, you are such a voice of sanity here.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
bohajal
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posted 30 June 2007 06:42 AM      Profile for bohajal   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post

[ 30 June 2007: Message edited by: bohajal ]


From: planet earth, I believe | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 30 June 2007 06:44 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
someone else can take the bait.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 30 June 2007 06:59 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Michelle, you are such a voice of sanity here.

Yeah, when I'M not flying off the handle.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
bohajal
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posted 30 June 2007 07:12 AM      Profile for bohajal   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If you think the NDP is a racist, sexist party - then go form your own new party. The door is open.

That is the cowardly way, not mine. I denounce sexism, racism and classism in all parties. I hold my principles over political cults.

You are part of what makes the NDP hypocritical, not me.

"Cleaning ladies" may not belong to your upper class and enjoy your comfort, Stockholm, bu that does not make them any less honest, reliable and honourable than you.


From: planet earth, I believe | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
FraserValleyMan
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posted 30 June 2007 07:29 AM      Profile for FraserValleyMan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
This whole string is a lot of ridiculous hyperbola and speculation and mad conspiracy theories that will never be proven. ...

... I'm sorry but the assumptions that all of this require are too far fetched for an Ian Flemming James Bond story!



Why is it that people from other parties often accuse people in the NDP of being totally naive, and accompany their charge with laughter? What do they know about the goings on in our backrooms that we don't?

When I heard this account, from a source I have reason to trust, I was shocked, but when I thought about it later I came to the view that if true it would explain some things.

In 2003 when news stories first came out that Dosanjh was being courted by the Federal Liberals the official NDP line was a kind of "no comment, but not true" type of approach. Only a month or so before the election campaign well-known people such as Kingsway candidate Ian Waddell were quoted in the press saying they very much doubted Ujjal would run for the Liberals, they knew him, they trusted him, etc., etc. Once it became a fait accompli, the line got reduced to simply "no comment".

Somebody, mainly the reporters and the Liberals, knew what to expect from Ujjal Dosanjh far better than even the top ranks of the NDP. How does that work?

As to your constant cranking about conspiracies and Bond, you're the only one talking that kind of thing. All I have put forward is what has been related to me and what is publicly known, and have emphasized the notion of conflict of interest, not active conspiracy. You keep putting that forward, ... why?


From: Port Coquitlam, BC | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 30 June 2007 07:56 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, my observation is that New Democrats - far from being naive - tend to have all sorts of far-fetched conspiracy theories. A lot of people I talk to seem totally convinced that Liberals and Conservatives and BQers and Greens spend 100% of their time cooking up plots to deprive the NDP of support and seats.

There is a grain of truth to this in that all parties do what they can to maximize their support and minimize support for their opponents.

But again, I return to my earlier point. If Dosanjh already knew he wanted to join the federal Liberals, why go through all the bother of running for the BCNDP leadership at all??? If you are suggesting that the Liberals said "Ujjal, we will only accept you within our ranks, but only if you agree to act as a double agent and capture the leadership of the BCNDP and then purposely run it into the ground" - I just don't find that credible.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
FraserValleyMan
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posted 30 June 2007 08:26 AM      Profile for FraserValleyMan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
If you are suggesting that the Liberals said "Ujjal, we will only accept you within our ranks, but only if you agree to act as a double agent and capture the leadership of the BCNDP and then purposely run it into the ground" - I just don't find that credible.

I don't find that believable either and never said that. I think he wanted in and was in a conflict of interest that clouded his judgement and performance.

As an aside, when Dosanjh won the BC NDP leadership there were bitter complaints that his forces had engaged in suspicious bulk membership drives among the South Asian community, mainly in Surrey and South Vancouver. In which other party do we hear about that? Can you say the Liberals and Dave Basi and Bob Virk?


From: Port Coquitlam, BC | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 30 June 2007 08:47 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually there were "suspicious bulk membership drives" in the Conservative Party too - that is how Cadman first lost the CPC nomination in Surrey North.

Keep in mind that when Dosanjh won the BCNDP leadership his only serious opponent was that crackpot Gordon Wilson who trying to lead his third consecutive party.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
FraserValleyMan
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posted 30 June 2007 08:57 AM      Profile for FraserValleyMan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Keep in mind that when Dosanjh won the BCNDP leadership his only serious opponent was that crackpot Gordon Wilson who trying to lead his third consecutive party.

Wilson has recently been musing out loud to the effect that, once again, BC voters believe that the two main provincial parties offer them a Hobson's Choice. The same theme that propelled him to prominence in 1991. Stay tuned!


From: Port Coquitlam, BC | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
adma
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posted 30 June 2007 04:34 PM      Profile for adma     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gordon Wilson? What about Corky Evans?
From: toronto | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 30 June 2007 06:23 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
All the more why if we are going to criticize him, we better get our facts right.

It's a fact that Bob Rae is a duplicitous bastard, and only a moron would trust him.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
redflag
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posted 30 June 2007 07:09 PM      Profile for redflag     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:

It's a fact that Bob Rae is a duplicitous bastard, and only a moron would trust him.


What I can't figure out is why Stockholm seems to be so aversive to me criticizing Bob Rae's white paper on post secondary education in Ontario.


From: here | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 30 June 2007 07:42 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Joshua Kubinec:

What I can't figure out is why Stockholm seems to be so aversive to me criticizing Bob Rae's white paper on post secondary education in Ontario.



He isn't.

But he is adverse to you lumping it in with Bobo's legacy as premier. Which is only right, because he was no longer premier (and no longer even a member of the NDP) when he produced the paper.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 01 July 2007 08:33 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Exactly. Context is everything. I don't see why the NDP should get tarred with things Bob Rae did long after he ceased to be Premier or even to be an NDP member.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
FraserValleyMan
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posted 01 July 2007 09:28 AM      Profile for FraserValleyMan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Exactly. Context is everything. I don't see why the NDP should get tarred with things Bob Rae did long after he ceased to be Premier or even to be an NDP member.

Not to belabour the point about Ujjal Dosanjh unduly (just enough to make sure no one can put it out of there mind, ...ever!) one of the most annoying things about Rae, Dosanjh and others has been the uncertainty around their actual departure dates. Recalling roughly a number of conversations about these people, what usually came up first would be some casual report that they were rumoured to have not renewed their membership. But they still had an NDP sign on their lawn or balcony, someone else would say. Only much later would come the media coverage of their inaugural press conference as a Liberal Star Candidate.

During the intervening grey years they could have written any one of a number of pieces critical of the NDP's direction and drift and so on and on, all of which would have had a heavier impact on NDP supporters because their complete break had not yet been announced. Rae did some of that, his National Post piece tackling Svend Robinson being the most obvious, though curiously Dosanjh didn't.


From: Port Coquitlam, BC | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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posted 01 July 2007 09:52 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Closing for length. I'm sure we haven't heard the last of Mr. Rae. Well, at least for several more months, and then maybe...
From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged

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