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Author Topic: Nazi has nowhere to go
evernon
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posted 16 June 2007 05:34 AM      Profile for evernon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Waterloo Record
I think we should just put this man on a plane and deliver him to his last place of citizenship, Germany.

From: Cumberland | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Boze
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posted 16 June 2007 08:11 AM      Profile for Boze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, his last country of citizenship is still Canada, regardless of the federal government's reprehensible decision to strip him of citizenship. No government should ever have that power.
From: Kamloops | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 16 June 2007 08:18 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You object to the deportation of a member of a Nazi death squad?

I'm sure you objected to the treatment of Maher Arar with equal fervor and conviction...

Although there may be another way...

Why not set up...a CAMP...with barbed wire and guards...put it on Baffin Island or somewhere like that...send all the retired Nazis there...

And the guards could be Jews, gays, leftists, Roma and Jehovah's Witnesses.

V/E Day must be a melancholy occasion for you, schmuck.

[ 16 June 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boze
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posted 16 June 2007 09:12 AM      Profile for Boze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Kamloops | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
evernon
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posted 16 June 2007 09:22 AM      Profile for evernon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Boze are you really saying that Oberlander should be left alone? I am sure that is not what you meant
From: Cumberland | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 16 June 2007 09:23 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Meaning WHAT, exactly?

Why do you even care if an old fascist murderer is expelled?

[ 16 June 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boze
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posted 16 June 2007 09:30 AM      Profile for Boze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What I said:

-" " at one poster's over the top reaction
-The government's decision is most definitely wrong. In no circumstances should a government revoke citizenship.
-The place for this guy is most definitely Canada, since he is a citizen of no other country and Germany has a history of not taking Nazis that others "return" to them.

I will continue to loudly denounce what should properly be denounced, namely an expression of joy at indulging feelings of revenge. My conception of justice does not require that the guilty suffer. My conception of justice has entirely to do with the victims of injustice and not the perpetrators of injustice.

I care, Ken Burch, because if the federal cabinet can remove citizenship from this undesirable individual they can do it to others.

[ 16 June 2007: Message edited by: Boze ]


From: Kamloops | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Draco
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posted 16 June 2007 09:35 AM      Profile for Draco     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by evernon:
Waterloo Record
I think we should just put this man on a plane and deliver him to his last place of citizenship, Germany.

Is there no way that we could see something more substantive done? Revoking citizenship and trying to shuffle him off to another country - any other country that would take him, it seems - is just nimbyism that won't see him brought to justice.


From: Wild Rose Country | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Draco
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posted 16 June 2007 09:38 AM      Profile for Draco     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boze:
My conception of justice has entirely to do with the victims of injustice and not the perpetrators of injustice.

So what happens to the perpetrators when the victims of their injustice are long since dead? Nothing?


From: Wild Rose Country | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
evernon
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posted 16 June 2007 09:42 AM      Profile for evernon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boze:
What I said:

-" " at one poster's over the top reaction
-The government's decision is most definitely wrong. In no circumstances should a government revoke citizenship.
-The place for this guy is most definitely Canada, since he is a citizen of no other country and Germany has a history of not taking Nazis that others "return" to them.

I will continue to loudly denounce what should properly be denounced, namely an expression of joy at indulging feelings of revenge. My conception of justice does not require that the guilty suffer. My conception of justice has entirely to do with the victims of injustice and not the perpetrators of injustice.

I care, Ken Burch, because if the federal cabinet can remove citizenship from this undesirable individual they can do it to others.

[ 16 June 2007: Message edited by: Boze ]


During the war this man served with a killing unit I understand. He may not have been directly involved in shooting people but he certainly was a member and they mudered over 90,000 people. So I suppose if your children were amongst them you would feel the same way huh?

We need to seek justice not revenge. This man lied about what he did during the war. Our laws are clear. He should be booted. Hell whats the worst tha will happen...he'll have to live in Berlin...wow real tuff!!


From: Cumberland | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Boze
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posted 16 June 2007 09:43 AM      Profile for Boze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Being opposed to prisons, deportations, exile, forced labour, executions, or even punishment as a concept, I admit I'm at a loss as to what should happen to him. Perhaps those calling for him to be imprisoned or deported should explain why it's necessary.

Evernon, it is not likely he will be living in Berlin, as YOUR LINK explains.

[ 16 June 2007: Message edited by: Boze ]


From: Kamloops | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 16 June 2007 10:33 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boze:
Being opposed to prisons, deportations, exile, forced labour, executions, or even punishment as a concept, I admit I'm at a loss as to what should happen to him. Perhaps those calling for him to be imprisoned or deported should explain why it's necessary.

The Nazis weren't opposed to forced deportations, slave labour, or summary executions.

It's necessary that at least one western-world country bring war criminals like Oberlander(and Juan Efrain Rios Montt and a long list of fascist murderers still living free lives in this hemisphere) to trial in order that they have the opportunity to admit their vile and despicable crimes to the world.

Why do we even bother with Remembrance Day if we're going to let war criminals off the hook?. What does that say to the next generation - that it's a-okay to be a participant to mass murder as long as you lie about your past before seeking refuge in countries which condone and support fascism ?.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
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posted 16 June 2007 10:38 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
Boze, so you are not committed to punishment? Those who helped grease the wheels of genocide you feel ought to just live out their lives in peace?

Begs a question or two though; the tens of thousands whose murders men like Oberlander helped facilitate, are they not deserving of even a thought from your rather addled mind? The survivors of the killing units, of which there were few, are they not deserving of seeing men like Oberlander brought to some justice?

And the question already asked of you, had Mr. Oberlander assisted in the murder of your children would you be so blase about what should happen to him?

Boze, withou law, without punishment what stops people from cruel and inhuman acts? You live in a fools paradise.

And as for Oberlander, he made millions as a land developer in Kitchener, I'm sure he would have no problem finding a beautiful condo in Berlin or elsewhere in Germany overlooking the Rein where he can live out his life.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Boze
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posted 16 June 2007 10:53 AM      Profile for Boze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, only the "addled" believe in abolishing prisons (or the death penalty). Here's another rolleyes.

If my own children were his victims? Of course I wouldn't be so blase about it - but that's precisely why relatives of victims do not determine punishments. Duh.

Do we not believe that the measure of our principles is whether we apply them where it is least convenient for us? The more heinous the crime, the more important it is that we treat the perpetrator justly.

I'm an anarchist so I've heard the fool's paradise line before. Maybe I should just leave this thread with another of these; frankly, I wish it was bigger:

edit: Also, I don't observe remembrance day. I think it glorifies militarism and nationalism. I recognize the importance of remembering, that we might not repeat past mistakes, but when "our country is at war" it feels very much like we have entirely forgotten what we are supposed to have remembered. I am all for wearing those white poppies for peace - particularly since the veterans seem so enraged by it.

[ 16 June 2007: Message edited by: Boze ]


From: Kamloops | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 16 June 2007 11:20 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Boze, now I get it, anarchists of course believe that criminals should not be punished, Maybe not a fools paradise but certainly in your world the meek will never get ahead, the poor would be eradicated, racism flourish and death and destruction the norm..ah well, the life of an anarchist.

BTW, i detest Capital punishment but think prisons for murderers, rapists, armed robbers etc is a good thing. Call me crazy.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
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posted 16 June 2007 11:23 AM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
BTW, i detest Capital punishment but think prisons for murderers, rapists, armed robbers etc is a good thing. Call me crazy.

I'm glad to hear you oppose capital punishment. I oppose it as well, period.

What do you think of Layton's plan to "get smart on crime"? Personally I think it's sad to see him jump on the "tough on crime" bandwagon.


From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 16 June 2007 11:28 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boze:
Do we not believe that the measure of our principles is whether we apply them where it is least convenient for us? The more heinous the crime, the more important it is that we treat the perpetrator justly.

Treating him justly ? Does that mean he should never be arraigned on charges of crimes against humanity ?. Should Oberlander be given a nod and allowed to continue collecting his Canada Pension and live out the rest of his days peacefully and without being inconvenienced by international law ?.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 16 June 2007 11:29 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Max I think Jack is taking a sensible approach to targeting violent crime. Anarchists of course would deplore it since hey who needs prisons? I support my leader here 100%
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 16 June 2007 11:34 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Max Bialystock:
What do you think of Layton's plan to "get smart on crime"? Personally I think it's sad to see him jump on the "tough on crime" bandwagon.

I'd be even sadder to see all those corporate crooks and white collar criminals get their just rewards for ripping off Canadians to the tune of several billion dollars a year. It would break my heart. Who does Jack Layton think he is, Elliot Ness ?.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Draco
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posted 16 June 2007 11:36 AM      Profile for Draco     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boze:
Being opposed to prisons, deportations, exile, forced labour, executions, or even punishment as a concept, I admit I'm at a loss as to what should happen to him. Perhaps those calling for him to be imprisoned or deported should explain why it's necessary.

Surely you have studied this issue and so must already be acquainted with both the consequentialist and deontological arguments for punishment as an inherent part of justice.

Why would you make a radical, undefended statement - that members of Nazi death squads should not be punished in any way - and then expect other posters to counter it?


From: Wild Rose Country | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
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posted 16 June 2007 11:36 AM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes let's have capital punishment for white collar criminals just like China does!
From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 16 June 2007 11:39 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Max who ever said that...stop flaming!!!!
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 16 June 2007 11:41 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I understand Boze's point of principle.

What happens when righting one victim of injustice leads directly to the dispossession or infringement of liberty of another person or persons who had nothing to do with the original injustice?

For example, you support the right of return for Palestinian refugees. This would include the descendants of someone who fled from Haifa in 1948 and lost their home. And if Palestinians had the right of return, the descendants would be able to come back and claim the home from the people who live there, who would have no idea of the history and are dependent on their home like any of us.

What next?

I'm not baiting. I can think of plausible answers, but I'm curious what yours would be.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
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posted 16 June 2007 11:42 AM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was replying to Fidel
From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 16 June 2007 11:43 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
This is a serious thread not that your question is not but start another thread so this doesnt go off topic
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Max Bialystock
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posted 16 June 2007 11:44 AM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is a serious thread. My opposition to capital punishment is one of my strongest principles. I was AGREEING with you.
From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 16 June 2007 11:53 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
I was referring to KenS not you
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 16 June 2007 12:01 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Max Bialystock:
Yes let's have capital punishment for white collar criminals just like China does!

Since when is the NDP for capital punishment?.

dirty cops

White Collar crime in Canada worth $20B a year Osgoode Law Prof 2004

White-collar crime on upswing in Canada - experts 2006

If Canada could be viewed as a clean place to do business, perhaps this country could rate somewhere in the top ten for Business Competitiveness Index(pdf)

And ... if we could just ditch our two old line parties for a term or three, perhaps Canada's economy could inch its way into the Top ten most competitive economies in the world.

But I think before any of that is possible, we'd have to ditch the two old line parties that have been in power and sharing power in Ottawa since the days when Tsarist era security forces policed breadlines in Moscow!

[ 16 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
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posted 16 June 2007 12:04 PM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Since when is the NDP for capital punishment?.

Thankfully they are not.


From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Boze
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posted 16 June 2007 12:27 PM      Profile for Boze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
two old line parties

Fidel's broken record is playing again.

I don't really think this is a serious thread, unless the point of it is for us to engage in some kind of catharsis over this Oberlander guy getting his due. Which he isn't even, really. But my initial objection was to the removal of his citizenship, which is something Canada just shouldn't do (and I say this with no nationalist sentiment whatsoever). If need be we can try him for crimes here can we not?


From: Kamloops | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 16 June 2007 12:57 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
No we cannot. This is the only justice left
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 16 June 2007 01:06 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boze:

If need be we can try him for crimes here can we not?

You make it sound as if there is no real urgency to the matter - as if this is just a simple murder case gone cold.

When was the last time Canada prosecuted a Nazi war criminal?. I think it's absolutely necessary that murderers face their accusers. And where do the majority of victims of Nazi war crimes, those who are still alive reside, in Canada ?.

Should we "round them up" a second time and bring them into Ottawa by train "tourist class" for the trial ?. I know my geriatric mother can't stand travelling long distances anymore.

Oberlander crossed the border into Canada under false pretenses: he lied about his former occupation during the war. That's grounds for deportation in any country right off the bat. And the feds have deported Latinos and other ethnics back to repressive third world capitalist hell holes for a lot less than Oberlander stands accused of.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 16 June 2007 05:09 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Didnt the news report that there was no proof eother way that he (or the other one) lied? It was just assumed by the courts he lied about his past. There were no extant records of their immigration?
From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 16 June 2007 05:21 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
pfffttttt, Ratzinger is Pope.

However, Oberlander, should be stripped of citizenship and pension tights and shipped back to Germany.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 16 June 2007 05:24 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
THE OBERLANDER CASE:

Helmut Oberlander was found by a federal judge to have been an auxiliary member of a Nazi unit that murdered at least 23,000 civilians, mostly Jews, between 1941 and 1943.

He was also found, on a balance of probabilities, to have lied about serving with the mobile squad when he came to Canada from Germany in 1954.


I've no idea whether Oberlander was an auxiliary member of a Ukrainian waffen SS unit or joined a Nazi death squad directly. But it sounds to me as if they have the goods on him. The controversy seems to be that his lawyers are arguing that his birth country, Ukraine, is where the atrocities were committed and so that's where he should be deported to after denaturalized as a citizen here. He became a German citizen in 1944. But Ukraine is one of the countries refusing to accept former war criminals. Germany does accept war criminals for trial.

The Russians or Israelis would have given him a trial. And then they would have shot him, likely against a cement wall with cigarette and blindfold. Or the rope.

[ 16 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 16 June 2007 05:27 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
He was also found, on a balance of probabilities, to have lied about serving with the mobile squad when he came to Canada from Germany in 1954.


This is what was used as a cause for stripping his citizenship, not his actual deeds in the war. Our justice system is innocent until proven guilty. He should not have had his citizenship stripped.

Mind you, had a country requested his extradition for trial, it would be and should be a slam dunk


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 16 June 2007 05:49 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Canada and U.S. have welcomed the scum of the earth with open arms in the past. The RCMP and FBI were more interested in harassing communists and student loan debtors than in bringing fascist war criminals to justice, all the while living in our midst and collecting Canadian and American pensions. But the made sure to chase Eric Honnecker to hell and back. The west has worked hard to make the world safe for hyprocrisy.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 16 June 2007 09:54 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The west has worked hard to make the world safe for hyprocrisy.

To be fair, everyone has. The middle east and africa hired ex-nazis, as did the soviets. East and west propped up and paid for fascist and corrupt dictators all over the world, all the while pointing accusing fingers at the other side in fits of hypocrisy.


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 16 June 2007 10:03 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boze:
If need be we can try him for crimes here can we not?

Yes we can.

I'm rather surprised that no one proposed this earlier.

The man is a Canadian citizen (or resident - who cares) who is alleged to have committed war crimes and/or crimes against humanity. Surely Canada has the jurisdiction to charge and try him here. The only considerations I can see are:

1. If a country with whom we have a treaty requests extradition (doesn't appear to be the case); or

2. If the physical venue causes difficulties in terms of summoning witnesses, documentary evidence, etc.

Other than in circumstances like 1 or 2 above, I believe deportation of alleged war criminals is an act of cowardice.

If Désiré Munyaneza can be tried in Canada, why not Oberlander?

[ 16 June 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 16 June 2007 11:57 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:

To be fair, everyone has. The middle east and africa hired ex-nazis, as did the soviets. East and west propped up and paid for fascist and corrupt dictators all over the world, all the while pointing accusing fingers at the other side in fits of hypocrisy.


I can't imagine Nazi war criminals desiring to flee "to" the Soviet Union or Israel after the war. A wehrmacht tank commander said in an interview for an HNN documentary that, their greatest fear during the battle of Kursk was being captured alive by the Russians. They knew what the waffen SS and einstazgruppen were doing to Russians and Jews ahead of them. In Russia and Ukraine, the final solution meant Jews, Russians, everybody. American and allied POW's were fed and treated with some dignity by the Nazis. There were no obligations to feed Russian POWs, just flamethrowers and total "annihilation." No prisoners. Some soldiers on both sides at the front, and especially at Stalingrad and Leningrad went mad with the barbarism of it all.

In the Balkans and Ukraine, Jews, Gypsies and undesirables were rounded up before the Nazis arrived. The barbarism of Croatian Ustashi was said to have shocked even SS commanders.

The CIA's Worst Kept Secret

quote:
"Honest and idealist ... enjoys good food and wine ... unprejudiced mind..."

That's how a 1952 Central Intelligence Agency assessment described Nazi ideologue Emil Augsburg, an officer at the infamous Wannsee Institute, the SS think tank involved in planning the Final Solution. Augsburg's SS unit performed "special duties," a euphemism for exterminating Jews and other "undesirables" during the Second World War.

Although he was wanted in Poland for war crimes, Augsburg managed to ingratiate himself with the U.S. CIA, which employed him in the late 1940s as an expert on Soviet affairs.


And the RCMP did their best immitation of the Keystone cops by ignoring thousands of war criminals living in our midst. Many collected Canadian pensions here and living under their real names. And all the while, Russian and Israeli authorities pointed out to them exactly who the feds were harboring from international law. It was the ultimate for cold war hypocrisy, and it continues to this day.

[ 17 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 17 June 2007 11:33 AM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry Fidel, but both the Soviets and the western Allies went on the 'hiring' spree to get scientists, spies and other tech experts after the war from the Nazis. They definitely were not trying them or executing them, just the ones who had no value to them (on both sides)
From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 17 June 2007 12:14 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In no circumstances should a government revoke citizenship.

It is a basic right of Canadians to decide on an immigration policy, and a citizenship policy, which benefits Canada.

We ask of prospective residents who they are, and make our choices based on that. They have an obligation to tell us the truth about who they are.

So, if I had applied for residence, or citizenship, in Canada, and just failed to mention that I was a serial killer, Canadians might conclude that I had achieved my status fraudulently, and that they had no obligation to tolerate my continued presence among them.

So how is it different for someone who participated in mass murder? If he had told the truth, he would not have gotten in. When we find out that he lied on a crucial point, we are entitled to remove the benefit that he was not legally entitled to.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 17 June 2007 12:50 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
Sorry Fidel, but both the Soviets and the western Allies went on the 'hiring' spree to get scientists, spies and other tech experts after the war from the Nazis. They definitely were not trying them or executing them, just the ones who had no value to them (on both sides)

How many Nazis did the CIA execute?. I wasn't aware of any ratlines ferreting Nazis to Russia or back to East Germany. Eric Honecker was a prisoner at Dauchau for over ten years and loathed the Nazis.

As far as I can tell, the Vatican was instrumental in granting sanctuary to Nazi war crmininals fleeing the USSR to fascist-friendly countries in Spain, Argentina, Chile, U.S., Canada and so on at that time.

I do understand that when the western leaders realized that the Russians were capable of liberating Europe by themselves, the race to Berlin was on. Money for war suddenly grew on trees, and the very industrialists which contributed to the rise of Hitler's war machine for many years began retooling for war against Germany. It's said that Hitler could have invaded Poland without the aid of Switzerland. But it couldn't have done so without General Motors.

[ 17 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Krago
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posted 17 June 2007 01:17 PM      Profile for Krago     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
[QB]It's said that Hitler could have invaded Poland without the aid of Switzerland. But it couldn't have done so without General Motors.

Or without the active support and approval of Josef Stalin.


From: The Royal City | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 17 June 2007 02:07 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
wasn't aware of any ratlines ferreting Nazis to Russia or back to East Germany.

Well, "ratlines" refers to SECRET assistance to Nazis by some churches.

Since EVERYTHING Stalin did was secret, it is harder to recognise what happened in the East.

For example, we know that the American space programme used many former Nazis. How about the Soviet programme? Well, the names of most participants are not publicly available, but the design of Soviet rockets was based on the German V-1, and Werner Von Braun's assistant, Helmut Groettrup, was a founding participant.

More broadly, lots of former Nazis helped build East Germany. There is a debate in Germany right now about the extent to which this was so, but the general idea seems to be that the Soviets and their East German comrades would spare Nazis if it would help "build socialism".

The Communist Parties in the East had their own means of handling war crimes. In some instances, war criminals were just executed (sometimes after trials!); in others, they were quietly rehabilitated. Calling something a "ratline" may be fun, but it doesn't exhaust the question of who tolerated ex-nazis.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 17 June 2007 02:15 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:

This is what was used as a cause for stripping his citizenship, not his actual deeds in the war. Our justice system is innocent until proven guilty. He should not have had his citizenship stripped.


And what makes you think the standard of innocence was not applied? This man (for lack of a better word) had over 10 years of Cnadian justice including numerous appeals. If anything he abused our justice system for his gain.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 17 June 2007 02:39 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:

Well, "ratlines" refers to SECRET assistance to Nazis by some churches.

Since EVERYTHING Stalin did was secret, it is harder to recognise what happened in the East.


Yes, I'm aware that the Russians also coveted scientific resources in Nazi Germany. It was a race to Berlin. I believe some of the scientific knowhow left Nazi Germany for the west and contributed to the making of the bomb for the axis of good and virtue. I think Oppenheimer was a socialist. The feds hounded him and Einstein both for being suspected lefties.

Everything WAs a secret for Stalin. The Soviets and Nazis both had secret factories for development of weapons. GM and Ford and more companies to this day refuse to acknowledge they knew what was happening in German branch plants. Stalin enjoyed the fact that the west had no real idea as to the extent of Soviet ndustrialization. The corporate-sponsored Nazis were expected to cut through Russia like a hot knife through soft butter. Secrets yes. The truth is often protected by a bodyguard of lies, or something like that. Where's Cueball or M. Spector to prop me up here?.

And some say that there are secret installations for technological development in China today. I have no idea. I do know that it's not all cheap labour our industrialists and financial elite are banking on in China today. IBM and Intel have R&D labs in China, and that India, China and Russia are producing engineers and scientists at a frenzied pace.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 17 June 2007 02:41 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Being opposed to prisons, deportations, exile, forced labour, executions, or even punishment as a concept, I admit I'm at a loss as to what should happen to him. Perhaps those calling for him to be imprisoned or deported should explain why it's necessary.

Well, if you're against punishment "as a concept" then of course no one should ever face any consequence for what they have done. General impunity for crime!

Probably Canada is deporting this fellow because it cannot try him. It may have jurisdiction, but it may not have witnesses. All it can prove is that Oberlaender was not who he claimed to be. True, a judge has held that "on the balance of probabilities" he was involved with death squads, but that doesn't mean we have witnesses who can put a gun in his hands.

So, we prove he lied to get into Canada. Therefore, he has no right to be in Canada, since his status was fraudulently obtained. If his country of birth was Ukraine, then he should be sent there. If it was Germany, send him there.
This isn't really punishment, it's restoring his real legal status.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boze
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posted 17 June 2007 02:46 PM      Profile for Boze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What if they won't take him?
From: Kamloops | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 17 June 2007 02:48 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So, we prove he lied to get into Canada.

But we DIDN'T prove he lied. It states explicitly we ASSUMED he lied.

And given this is the country of "none is too many" thats not necessarily a correct assumption


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 17 June 2007 03:09 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:

But we DIDN'T prove he lied. It states explicitly we ASSUMED he lied.


I believe that the federal judge isn't assuming anything. Apparently they have proof Oberlander was an auxiliary member of either a Ukrainian or Nazi death squad. I'm thinking this information is not being published in Canadian papers for the same reasons which brought controversy to the Deschenes commission inquiry on war criminals living in Canada - various ethnic groups protested saying they didn't want slandering due to the WWII mistakes of a few of their nationals who emigrated/lied their way into Canada.

Oberlander's lawyer isn't arguing for his innocence apparently. And at the same time, Oberlander's lawyer isn't contesting that he lied about his former occupation in order to get into Canada. He had to, otherwise, there is no record of him telling the truth to immigration officials in the 1950's.

His lawyer does seem to be arguing that Oberlander should be sent back to Ukraine on the basis that Ukraine was his birth country, and I'm presuming also that the crimes were committed in Ukraine. Ukraine, Poland and one other country have established records of ignoring war criminals. However, Germany does have a good record of prosectuing war criminals, and Oberlander did change his citizenship to German before entering Canada. As well, his crimes were committed while Oberlander was a member of a collaborating militant wing of the Nazi occupation in Eastern Europe. There is no political will in Canada to deal with Nazi war criminals either.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged

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